[OB] Kaladin & Jasnah: the case for Political Marriage

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Alethi troops , however, are Vorin. On can make a case that killing Heralds, if you want to rule Vorin peoples, is not a good idea.

Genocide, however, is the only sure alternative. Jasnah will not drop that option. And it is clear to her that just to preserve unity among her people, alternatives will have to be looked at. Jasnah also knows that the Knights Radiant of old had more options than they have today. And they did not face an Everstorm. So I dare say Jasnah is not optimistic. That makes her a realist in contrast to Kaladin. He has plans which may or may not work.
Somebody will have to prepare for the bad case. And that will be Jasnah.

 

Heralds were proven to have betrayed mankind. Amaram is the most devout Vorin boy you can get and you saw what happened to him when he found out the truth.

Again for all the reasons I already laid out I whole heartily disagree. At this point we are just talking past each other. I would normally wish you luck with your theory, but this is one I just cannot see eye to eye on. I can however respect your right to disagree. To each their own

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Kon-Tiki]

I don't think you're wrong in your assessment of the Vorin masses' reaction to the Heralds, but Amaram is hardly a stock Vorin. The Sons of Honor were shady even by Vorin standards

[SwordNimiForPresident]

If we are talking about a political marriage then Kaladin would be a poor choice. Alethkar wouldn't gain any lands or alliances from it. They would be much better served by a marriage to one of the eastern nations, or a marriage off world. Personally I'm holding out hope that, somewhere down the line, our pragmatist Queen finds a certain high functioning sociopathic prophet with a proclivity for living through things and kicks off a romance. That would bring a rusting strong alliance. That being said I don't think its likely to happen in the Stormlight books. I imagine that crossovers will be small things like Vasher and Vivenna.

[Sedside]

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If we are talking about a political marriage then Kaladin would be a poor choice. Alethkar wouldn't gain any lands or alliances from it. They would be much better served by a marriage to one of the eastern nations, or a marriage off world. Personally I'm holding out hope that, somewhere down the line, our pragmatist Queen finds a certain high functioning sociopathic prophet with a proclivity for living through things and kicks off a romance. That would bring a rusting strong alliance. That being said I don't think its likely to happen in the Stormlight books. I imagine that crossovers will be small things like Vasher and Vivenna.

Hm... Szeth after completing his Shinovar quest? He is my second choice for Jasnah. And I don't think the fact he killed her dad will matter, she is pragmatic enough to understand he just obeyed his masters.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Hm... Szeth after completing his Shinovar quest? He is my second choice for Jasnah. And I don't think the fact he killed her dad will matter, she is pragmatic enough to understand he just obeyed his masters.

Actually there is a WoB that states there will be some friction with Szeth because of Gavilar's murder. I think Jasnah was mentioned by name, but I need a chance to dig it up. Will edit this post when I find it. 

edit: so jasnah was not mentioned by name, but here is the WoB I was referring to

 

-lurcher-
At the end of Oathbringer, it seems that many (including myself) felt that Szeth's return and sudden alignment with the protagonists went over a little too easily. Are they accepting of him now? Why the sudden change of heart? Are there going to be trust issues in the future?

Brandon Sanderson
Uh, yeah. Obviously crazy men who shift allegiances quickly, after murdering the king and starting a war, aren't exactly the sort you leave home to babysit your kids.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[deacon]

I don't know, I think Jasnah would care a lot if it's someone who's hurt/killed a family member. She seems to care about them very much. If her and Kaladin were to happen, it'd be because they both love the family - she could never be with someone she saw as a threat to them. She almost assassinated Elhokar's wife and they had already been married at that point!

Edited February 6, 2019 by deacon
fixing misspelling

[NoiseSpren]

She isn't pragmatic enough to pass her fathers murder. She is highly emotionally unstable so there are going to be troubles for Szeth. Poor, poor shin.

[Winds Alight]

Jasnah is emotionally unstable? Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

[NoiseSpren]

Highly

 

There are many indicators in her POVs.

(example the chapter when she reads Talns crazy speech. Second word after the text from Taln. Sorry, but stable person would be different. And there are more.)

 

Do not be like Ivory. Be like Jasnah.

Sorry, but Jasnah is as crazy and unstable as Kal, Dad or Shallan (ok, not as much as Shallan).

Edit: Suprised you haven't noticed...

Edited February 6, 2019 by NoiseSpren

[Winds Alight]

Alright then ...

[CrazyRioter]

Jasnah has issues dealing with her emotions but I wouldn't describe her as unstable.

[Timothy]

They could just adopt him as a Kholin and solve the problem that way. Maybe give him Sadea's lands and have him rule them as a Kholin, that way solving two problems as one. That way they'd have another male to use as marriage fodder to forge pacts and she won't need to marry someone yet.

[+Oltux72]

57 minutes ago, Timothy said:

They could just adopt him as a Kholin and solve the problem that way. Maybe give him Sadea's lands and have him rule them as a Kholin, that way solving two problems as one. That way they'd have another male to use as marriage fodder to forge pacts and she won't need to marry someone yet.

Do that and all other High Princes have to unite against the crown. It would be a Kholin power grab to abrogate the deal uniting the Alethi.

[Guest]

Besides, I don't think Kaladin would even want to be adopted. He has living family, that he loves and who love him. He doesn't need to do it to prove his loyalty either, he has done so often enough.

[Timothy]

Yeah, a centralization by Jasnah where they adopt his whole family as a kholin branch.

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, deacon said:

I don't know, I think Jasnah would care a lot if it's someone who's hurt/killed a family member. She seems to care about them very much. If her and Kaladin were to happen, it'd be because they both love the family - she could never be with someone she saw as a threat to them. She almost assassinated Elhokar's wife and they had already been married at that point!

I agree, and even have a WoB that supports that Jasnah truly loves her family and wants to see them protected. Jasnah also does not act rashly. She held back on assassinating Aesudan because she didn't have enough information and didn't want to act till she was sure. I think I posted both that quote and the WoB in this thread already a bunch of posts ago, but if not let me know and I will post it here. 

7 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

She isn't pragmatic enough to pass her fathers murder. She is highly emotionally unstable so there are going to be troubles for Szeth. Poor, poor shin.

Yeah, I most definitely disagree with this. I think Jasnah will not be thrilled to work with Szeth, and there will be friction, but I whole heartily disagree that Jasnah is emotionally unstable. 

6 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

Highly

 

There are many indicators in her POVs.

(example the chapter when she reads Talns crazy speech. Second word after the text from Taln. Sorry, but stable person would be different. And there are more.)

 

Do not be like Ivory. Be like Jasnah.

Sorry, but Jasnah is as crazy and unstable as Kal, Dad or Shallan (ok, not as much as Shallan).

Edit: Suprised you haven't noticed...

And there are plenty of examples where she realizes her mistakes, and strives to do better (how she has been handling Shallan's wardship). Plenty of examples of her caring and loving (Shallan's attempted suicide, Renarin). Plenty of examples of her controlling her emotions (Amaram). Please read my prior posts, I have them listed all there. 

4 hours ago, Timothy said:

They could just adopt him as a Kholin and solve the problem that way. Maybe give him Sadea's lands and have him rule them as a Kholin, that way solving two problems as one. That way they'd have another male to use as marriage fodder to forge pacts and she won't need to marry someone yet.

I don't really feel there is a problem that needs solving. Dalinar already gave Kaladin lands under the Kholin crown. Kaladin is a soldier in the Kholin military. Kaladin does not need to be linked any further to the Kholins. I do not see it accomplishing anything necessary. 

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Besides, I don't think Kaladin would even want to be adopted. He has living family, that he loves and who love him. He doesn't need to do it to prove his loyalty either, he has done so often enough.

I agree. 

2 hours ago, Timothy said:

Yeah, a centralization by Jasnah where they adopt his whole family as a kholin branch.

Again, I do not see the necessity. 

[NoiseSpren]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Plenty of examples of her controlling her emotions (Amaram).

Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar do great work of controling their emotions. I can name "plenty of examples". They are unstable (well, Dad is probably better after end of OB, but still...).

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Please read my prior posts, I have them listed all there. 

I believe you made great thinking there, but I am too lazy for that. My bad.

Edit: for other arguments you had: Kal often realizes his mistakes. He is unstable. Caring and loving? Dear, that has nothing to do with stability.

 

Don't take me wrong. I deeply love Jasnah. I think she is great personality. She IS loving, caring etc. I merely say she is unstable.

Edited February 6, 2019 by NoiseSpren

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, NoiseSpren said:

Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinar do great work of controling their emotions. I can name "plenty of examples". They are unstable (well, Dad is probably better after end of OB, but still...).

I believe you made great thinking there, but I am too lazy for that. My bad.

Edit: for other arguments you had: Kal often realizes his mistakes. He is unstable. Caring and loving? Dear, that has nothing to do with stability.

 

Don't take me wrong. I deeply love Jasnah. I think she is great personality. She IS loving, caring etc. I merely say she is unstable.

The only reason I refer to older posts is I don't want to strangle opposing views just by re-typing what I think over and over again. My line of thinking is if you already read what I wrote that I feel already replies to your points, then me re-typing it won't change anything except take more space. So if you have time and choose to read it, great. If not, at the end of the day you are the arbiter of your own day and time. 

I think what it comes down to is we have different views on the definition of unstable. Based on my definition, they are not. Based on yours, you feel they are. In that I guess to each their own. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[NoiseSpren]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

The only reason I refer to older posts is I don't want to strangle opposing views just by re-typing what I think over and over again. My line of thinking is if you already read what I wrote that I feel already replies to your points, then me re-typing it won't change anything except take more space. So if you have time and choose to read it, great. If not, at the end of the day you are the arbiter of your own day and time. 

I think what it comes down to is we have different views on the definition of unstable. Based on my definition, they are not. Based on yours, you feel they are. In that I guess to each their own. 

Means we agree (cca). Only the definition of "unstable" is problem. But that isn't of any importance.

Glad to see that.

[Pathfinder]

52 minutes ago, NoiseSpren said:

Means we agree (cca). Only the definition of "unstable" is problem. But that isn't of any importance.

Glad to see that.

No, to clarify. I see unstable as the definition:

"prone to change, fail, or give way; not stable"

This says to me that by you saying Jasnah is unstable, and will react to Szeth is she will lash out at him, and or immediately attack suddenly without provocation. I maintain there would be friction, but considering we see her consider, think things through, talk to others, and reason shows she would not just jump. 

To me you are more focused on this aspect of the definition:

"prone to psychiatric problems or sudden changes of mood"

Yes, Jasnah as well as the others have mental problems they are working through, but again to me, that does not say they are "prone to sudden changes of mood" or "prone to change, no stable". 

So I disagree with you, but given your premise is, to me, based on how you choose to use unstable, I do not think we could reach a commonality, or understanding. Hope that helps. 

[CrazyRioter]

I definitely don't see Jasnah lashing out violently at Szeth on first look. That's not the kind of person she is at all. She won't be happy to be sure, but she won't let it overwhelm her judgement.

[NoiseSpren]

Yes. Point is that I don't see her to overcome it easily. Like ot is going to be tough time for her. Whole thing was reaction on @Sedside. The "pragmatic Jasnah".

 

And Jasnah is not person with good mental health.

 

And unstable means for me:

Unable to endure mental pressure in certain situations while others (like everybody else - nearly) would just continue going without bigger problems. More situations ruin you like that - more unstable you are.

Edited February 6, 2019 by NoiseSpren

[Winds Alight]

Mental illness does not necessarily mean emotional instability.

Judging from what we know about Jasnah she most likely has a history of mental illness from back when she was a child. We don't know nearly enough to judge exactly how that happened and which influences had a part in it. From what was in the books we can also assume she has been sexually assaulted at one point in her life, maybe raped.
At the time of OB when we first get actual POVs from her, that definitely shapes her character and the way she views herself and the world. But she shows no instability whatsoever. Just because she isn't always in 100% control like she seemed to be in book 1 when Shallan first met her doesn't make her unstable. The closest she comes to losing control is when Amaram enters the stage, and my personal theory on that is that he might've been the one to have assaulted her. It would fit him well.

I actually believe Jasnah is one of the most stable characters we have right now. Because she had been dealing with her issues for years, likely decades, and she knows how to deal.

[Vissy]

Jasnah is not unstable like that, there's absolutely no textual evidence to support that. She was probably the least unstable person around (after Daddy Dalinar) during the Battle of Thaylen - which was as big a crisis as they come, really. She didn't freak out on Renarin, either. On what basis are you saying that she's going to flip out at Szeth?

@Winds Alight said it well. Past trauma does not mean one is prone to instability, and Jasnah has had decades to deal with hers. Though I don't think Amaram was the abuser - if that was the case, I think Jasnah would just have killed him on the spot instead of bothering to waste words on him. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Vissy

[NoiseSpren]

...retreats into a dark cave munching his opinion...

...and waiting for more Jasnah chapters...

...to support his unfamous posts.