ZenBossanova

[OB] Kaladin & Jasnah: the case for Political Marriage

157 posts in this topic

I am not sure if I am completely on board with this. Kaladin is my favourite character an I want him to be happy. But I feel like odd having him marry Jasnah who is fourteen years older than him. 

Before you tell me about the Breeze situation- I know about it. 

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1 hour ago, Sahin the Just said:

I am not sure if I am completely on board with this. Kaladin is my favourite character an I want him to be happy. But I feel like odd having him marry Jasnah who is fourteen years older than him. 

Before you tell me about the Breeze situation- I know about it. 

Welcome to medieval society.

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2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Welcome to medieval society.

Yeah but it was flipped. Boys marrying young ladies not the other way around!

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Just now, Sahin the Just said:

Yeah but it was flipped. Boys marrying young ladies not the other way around!

If one happens, why not the other?

Even with the rigid masculine/feminine distinction in Vorin culture, it's still (the Alethi variation in particular) very egalitarian. That's even remarked upon by Shallan (I think?) somewhere at the end of WoR, when she notes that the Alethi always drag their women along in battle to function as scribes, engineers etc.

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6 hours ago, Sahin the Just said:

Yeah but it was flipped. Boys marrying young ladies not the other way around!

It was usually flipped, but not always. There are some RL cases where a noble married a lady older than him if she was politically the perfect match. Cataline of Aragon was meant to marry the prince of England, but he died; however the marriage alliance was too good to pass up for their families, so she went ahead and married his younger brother despite been around 7 years older than him.  

Granted, the difference betwen Kaladin and Jasnah may stretch the boundaries of age in any direction. 

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This is not completely unusual, especially in fantasy - I mean look at The Lord of the Rings.  Aragorn and Arwen.  The age gap borders on ludicrous, and the marriage is inter-species, if not political.  A young hero marrying a slightly less young heroine who happens to be a queen for political reasons is not outside the realm of possibilities in real life, let alone fantasy.

 

But I don't see Jasnah and Kaladin yet.  There is a potential foundation that could build in that direction, especially given that she seems to appreciate his wit, and that he has let go of some of his views on gender roles.  But he probably still view her as everything he dislikes about lighteyes, even with everything he has learned from Adolin, Shallan, Renarin and Dalinar.

 

I'm not saying a romantic or political arrangement is impossible for them, just that it is one of the less likely growth patterns I see for them.  But, if Cultivated properly, they could end up happily at that point.

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46 minutes ago, Stark said:

Cultivated

Intentionally capitallized?

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9 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Intentionally capitallized?

I debated being more subtle about my implication and not capitalizing, but then figured it was more fun to capitalize.  So yes, intentional, as was the talk of growth patterns.  I'm not convinced they would get together without external intervention.  Whether that external intervention is more mundane, like Dalinar and Adolin, or Jasnah herself making a case for it, more mischievious like Ivory and Syl plotting headboard discussions, or more powerful, like Cultivation herself getting involved with her future sight saying, subtly or not, "this bodes well for the future, you two should be friends."  

 

So yeah, capital on purpose.

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Personally I think it would be interesting to see more Kaladin and Jasnah sparring wits but I think that’s about as far as it goes. Maybe some additional flirting that never goes anywhere. 

I think Brandon’s plan for a Kaladin romance will follow the fantasy trope of the girl you grew up with in your hometown. It’s honestly the easy way out to write I believe. Somehow Roshonne dies and suddenly the girl Syl admits to already liking (Laral) needs saving from Kaladin (which is even ironic as Laral says she doesn’t need saving and Kaladin says that was the woman he was never going to marry).  How wrong these two idiots are; they’re perfect for each other and they just don’t realize it yet. 

Honestly I find the Whole Jasnah/Kaladin dynamic more interesting.  Hell, kill off Adolin an respark Shaladin. That would probably be more interesting too!  That’s more difficult to write compellingly and if I were Brandon, Laral is just the easier choice. Mark my words. 

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3 minutes ago, lookupwards said:

I think Brandon’s plan for a Kaladin romance will follow the fantasy trope of the girl you grew up with in your hometown. It’s honestly the easy way out to write I believe. Somehow Roshonne dies and suddenly the girl Syl admits to already liking (Laral) needs saving from Kaladin (which is even ironic as Laral says she doesn’t need saving and Kaladin says that was the woman he was never going to marry).  How wrong these two idiots are; they’re perfect for each other and they just don’t realize it yet. 

I doubt it. Brandon is not the type of guy to implement clichés. Maybe if he puts some extremely unexpected twist on it.

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I can see the two developing a mutual, albeit grudging, respect for each other.  Especially once they get past him not liking lighteyes and her thinking him to idealistic.  Once they begin to respect each other, that respect could be Cultivated into a mutual admiration and eventually more.  That whole cliche about the distinction between love and hate being extremely thin, etc, etc.

 

It is possible.  But I do not see it as the most likely case.  But hey, a lot can happen in a year off screen, right?

 

Provided of course that Jasnah forgives him for failing to protect her brother, a person she had employed a legion of assassins to protect.  And she never finds out that he personally trained the man that killed her brother, and let him escape numerous times after learning his intent to kill Elhokar, because they are friends.  

 

That last point may be a bit of a relationship killer.

 

So I think Kaladin is going to be more focused on stopping Moash from killing, or getting killed,  more of the people he has sworn to protect in the next year, and book, and not as focused on potential romance.  And from Jasnah's perspective, crappy king though her brother was, he was still her brother.  And he died because the Radiant he idolized and wanted to emulate screwed up repeatedly and failed to protect him.  Adult decision made by Elhokar or not, pragmatic reasoning or no, Jasnah is still human, and that will be a very hard failure to overlook in a potential partner.

 

I do want to see them talking more though.

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3 hours ago, lookupwards said:

I think Brandon’s plan for a Kaladin romance will follow the fantasy trope of the girl you grew up with in your hometown. It’s honestly the easy way out to write I believe. Somehow Roshonne dies and suddenly the girl Syl admits to already liking (Laral) needs saving from Kaladin (which is even ironic as Laral says she doesn’t need saving and Kaladin says that was the woman he was never going to marry).  How wrong these two idiots are; they’re perfect for each other and they just don’t realize it yet. 

Seeing how he already reduced an actually powerful female character to a damsel in distress, that needed saving from herself ( :rolleyes: ) through Adolin, I wouldn't be surprised.

3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Brandon is not the type of guy to implement clichés.

Shadolin is the epitome of cliche. Even more after Shallan being forcefully reduced into needing saving.

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20 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Seeing how he already reduced an actually powerful female character to a damsel in distress, that needed saving from herself ( :rolleyes: ) through Adolin, I wouldn't be surprised.

Shadolin is the epitome of cliche. Even more after Shallan being forcefully reduced into needing saving.

Do you believe that to be entirely over? I very much doubt it's going to be a perfect marriage...

(congrats on 1111 posts btw)

Edited by Leyrann
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1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

Do you believe that to be entirely over? I very much doubt it's going to be a perfect marriage...

Doesn't matter. The situation at the end of Oathbringer is still cliche.

Quote

(congrats on 1111 posts btw)

Thanks. :)

Edited by SLNC
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Yeah the bar to friendship or possibly more between Jasnah and Kaladin will him seeing Moash giving a Bridge 4 salute as he kills Elhokar right before he completes the first ideal. Jasnah might not find out since did anyone actually notice Kaladin freeze.

On the point of Shallan, the Veil kaladin thing isn't over despite grudgingly complimenting adolin at the end

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If I am correct, we will see more skyeel-style flirtations and more conversations that simmer. 

But anybody but Laral. I can think of several chulls I would prefer over her. 

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What if (shock!) Jasnah will make Kaladin happy? She is probably wise woman.

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Since we are on the topic of Kaladin’s possible love interest... what about Azure/Vivenna? I feel like they had some pretty good chemistry, and she is clearly destined to return to this story with some prominence. She IS searching for the Blade that is in the possession of the former Assassin that has sworn an Oath to Dalinar.  There would be some great built in intrigue and possible friction points in regards to their respective goals.

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On 4/4/2018 at 6:45 PM, ZenBossanova said:

That is... Excellent. 

The first oath is always the same. 

The next two oaths have to do with the first trait, while the second two must have to do with the other trait. 

How does this work with the oaths Szeth was given? 

Edit: it isn't identical, but Szeth has oaths that pertain to both of his ideals, Justice and Confidence. 

Every Order has a different Oath progression. I assume that this is due to the type of personality traits the Higher Spren of different orders look for in their bondmates. Skybreakers are rule of law people; it makes sense for their oaths to be well defined and straightforward. Lightweavers are the other extreme. Artists generally speaking have problems adhering to structure; it follows that they speak no oaths beyond the first, instead speaking truths that emphasize self awareness. Windrunners build their Oaths on top of one another, like a staircase where the top is their perfect Ideal while Edgedancers seem to state their Oaths like tenants nailed to a chapel door. All that is a long way of saying that every time we've seen an oath spoken 'on-screen' the structure has been different depending on the Order. Therefore there is no reason to think that there will be any commonalities between the orders as far as their Oaths are concerned other than that there are 5 of them and everyone's 1st Oath is the same. Also, I'm not sure that any order will form a 1 to 1 correlation to the divine attributes associated with their order. The Windrunners seen the most likely candidates for that sort of thing but only Brandon really knows.

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Brandon has made it clear that that chart is an in-universe interpretation of things that may or may not co-incide with how things actually work.

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2 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Brandon has made it clear that that chart is an in-universe interpretation of things that may or may not co-incide with how things actually work.

Yeah. And that too.

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13 hours ago, lookupwards said:

I think Brandon’s plan for a Kaladin romance will follow the fantasy trope of the girl you grew up with in your hometown. It’s honestly the easy way out to write I believe. Somehow Roshonne dies and suddenly the girl Syl admits to already liking (Laral) needs saving from Kaladin (which is even ironic as Laral says she doesn’t need saving and Kaladin says that was the woman he was never going to marry).  How wrong these two idiots are; they’re perfect for each other and they just don’t realize it yet. 

Storms, I hope not.  I actually like the way that the Hearthstone plot was wrapped up: as a minor aside that was once a huge cornerstone of our main character's life but is really rather inconsequential in the big picture.  I think Kaladin realizing that was one of the strongest moments in the first part of Oathbringer.  Especially him realizing that Roshone really was a disgraced, impoverished, and exiled lighteyes who really had been punished for Moash's grandparents' deaths even if not in precisely the way that Kaladin or Moash might have wished.

13 hours ago, Stark said:

Provided of course that Jasnah forgives him for failing to protect her brother, a person she had employed a legion of assassins to protect.  And she never finds out that he personally trained the man that killed her brother, and let him escape numerous times after learning his intent to kill Elhokar, because they are friends.  

That last point may be a bit of a relationship killer.

Also this, although I think it only fair to point out that Jasnah was planning on having the queen assassinated, so her getting too upset over someone trying to assassinate the king would be a bit hypocritical.  And that wouldn't be particularly logical, now would it?

Also it should be pointed out that Kaladin did save Elhokar's life once, which ought to count for something if she's keeping score.  Furthermore, he never really let Moash escape, either, unless you count him rushing off to save Dalinar, which was rather more of a priority at that point anyway.  He did let Moash off the hook for his part in sabotaging Elhokar's balcony, but that was about it.  And there were (arguably) extenuating circumstances.

I could see Kaladin and Jasnah working out; but then again, I could see Kaladin and almost any of our female characters working out.  Or Jasnah and just about anyone, for that matter.  She at least has the temperament to make a political marriage with or without love involved.

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Still not sure if Kaladin would go for it. Jasnah I'm sure would see the political advantage of having the foremost Windrunner as her consort and I believe that they'd be good for each other, be a strength in areas for which they are weak. Jasnah is certainly attractive and witty enough to engage Kaladin on a physical and mental level respectively. Problem is, I read Kaladin as someone who needs chemistry and I am not entirely sure any is there. Plus, in a battle of wills, who wins? Who submits?Neither seems the type to give over or compromise easily; an argument between them could set off enough sparks to start a fire in a monsoon. Not saying it's outside the realm of possibility, for my 2 cents i think I need to see more to be convinced.

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On 5.4.2018 at 8:39 AM, Leyrann said:

Welcome to medieval society.

It's not medieval society, it's fantasy society! Anything goes in a fantasy society. Just ask Nalthis, where the ruling class are Platonic zombies.

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The Sanderfan variation of shipping: Discussing the feasability of a political marriage between characters.

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