[OB] Kaladin & Jasnah: the case for Political Marriage

[ZenBossanova]

I am not at all convinced Kaladin and Jasnah would naturally make a good couple. I think there is a good case that it would take a lot of work, at best. At best! (at worst, they kill each other). Nor have I followed the Jas-adin debates closely, so I apologize if this has already come up. 

But I am not convinced Jasnah would spend much time even taking their compatibility into account. Of course, for that matter, I think it is entirely possible that Jasnah perfers women. 

But when she first realizes Shallan was a Radiant, she immediately has her engaged to Adolin. Now, there are far too many Radiants to that for everyone. But arguably the most important man on Roshar, after Dalinar, is Kaladin. 

He is the most accomplished Radiant so far (even if Shallan is technically ahead of him in oaths) and he has the most squires by far. Of course, part of that is his order's resonance/quirk, but still, he has the most. 

Jasnah is going to want him to marry into her family. This will be important for the Kholin Dynasty survival and stability. It would not be wise to have someone so powerful compete for power, even if utterly unintentionally. History will be a compelling factor here for Jasnah. I am sure she knows of other great dynasties that collapsed for similar reasons. 

So, if Jasnah can't marry him to one of her sisters, she will make a play for him herself. And I expect she will be terrible at it. Shallan might be helpful, with her powers of transformation, for instance how she helped the bandits become better men, even if she is helpless at transforming material. (I am a stick!)

[Calderis]

I don't necessarily think your wrong... But I also don't like it. 

Also, as far as I'm aware, the only "sisters" Jasnah has are other veristitalians. So they won't help her much as far as political marriages go. 

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't necessarily think your wrong... But I also don't like it. 

Also, as far as I'm aware, the only "sisters" Jasnah has are other veristitalians. So they won't help her much as far as political marriages go. 

Well one of her sisters is a dude...So problem solved for Vorin's tradictions.

 

Anyway I don't see the political marriage as a likely option but it's hard to deny a possibility at 100%

[Vissy]

I've been rereading OB and noticed something that just struck me as... kind of obvious foreshadowing of something. Possible foreshadowing.

Jasnah does not smile often. She only smiles when it feels most genuine to do so.

From p. 482 of Oathbringer, in the chapter "Broken People":

Quote

"Yes, I read that one. All of them, actually." She [Jasnah] looked to him [Dalinar] then, and smiled.

People were always surprised to see emotion from Jasnah, but Dalinar considered that unfair. She did smile - she merely reserved the expression for when it was most genuine.

Why is that little fact important?

Consider the very next chapter, Notes", p. 499.

Quote

"If you wish, Captain," Jasnah snapped, "I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable."

"I'd love that," Kaladin responded. "In turn, I'll get you some eels to cuddle. You'll feel right at home."

Jasnah, curiously, smiled. "Let me ask you this, Captain. Do you think ignoring the movements of the Voidbringers would be wise?"

"Probably not," he admitted. 

"And do you think, perhaps, that you could train your squire Windrunners to fly up high and scout for us? If spanreeds are proving unreliable these days, we'll need another method of watching the enemy. I'd happily cuddle skyeels, as you offer, if your team would be willing to spend some time imitating them."

And of course there is the somewhat infamous low key flirting scene. But in addition to the flirting, there's also a flash of genuine positive emotion from Jasnah. Dalinar, who is one of the closest family members of Jasnah and knows her very well, states that she only smiles rarely - only when it feels most genuine to do so. And here we have Kaladin sparking that reaction from her in the span of a single conversation, which, if I am not mistaken, is also the first time they've talked to one another. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that they have some chemistry together.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Vissy

[digitalbusker]

@vissy I read that smile as "Hold my beer and watch me destroy this fool," but it's entirely possible we'll get it recontextualized later.

[Vissy]

But Jasnah doesn't tend to smile in situations like that. She has no tolerance for fools, she wouldn't smile at them. But we do know that she appreciates a good challenge.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Vissy

[Yezrien]

I think the problem is that Jasnah has to think politically now. Kaladin may be important to the war effort, but he's still a commoner by birth. If Jasnah marries him, she's basically telling all of Alethkar that Radiants outrank highprinces. She's telling her entire nobility that status no longer comes from noble blood, but from nahel bonds, which even the lowliest servant can attract. To us, that looks like progress; to the conservative nobility, it will justify a coup.

Ialai might respond by marrying one of the other Highprinces, making him lord of two princedoms. And if he starts advocating traditional noble authority, every powerful lighteyes left will support him as king.

[Draigon]

Kaladin may be commoner-born, but that doesn't matter since he holds a shardblade. As soon as he shows the blade, he's considered only a step or two below the highprinces. That's how he gets away with ordering Rashone around in Hearthstone. His shardblade places him above Rashone in authority regardless of whether he was a slave or deserter in the past.

[Subvisual Haze]

Good eye!  I kind of forgot about Jasnah wanting to hook Shallan up with Adolin for Kholin political reasons.  I knew she was doing it for the benefit of Shallan's position, but it's good to remember that she saw a match with a Radiant as politically desirable for her family.

This also matches with an observation that Navani makes in Oathbreaker when Dalinar is having his breakdown and Navani briefly assumes the position of ruler:

Quote

"The five men of Bridge Four arrayed themselves behind Navani. They had been surprised when she'd asked them to escort her; they didn't yet understand the authority they lent the throne.  The Knights Radiant were the new power in the world, and politics swirled around them like eddies in a river." (Chapter 104)

So I could see the political/practical angle giving a clear opening for Kaladin and Jasnah to hit it off.  

[Yezrien]

1 hour ago, Draigon said:

Kaladin may be commoner-born, but that doesn't matter since he holds a shardblade. As soon as he shows the blade, he's considered only a step or two below the highprinces. That's how he gets away with ordering Rashone around in Hearthstone. His shardblade places him above Rashone in authority regardless of whether he was a slave or deserter in the past.

Yes, but the rule that automatically elevates shardbearers was calibrated for traditional Alethi society. The nobles, who hold the power, abide by that rule because they know it's practically impossible for a darkeyes to acquire a shardblade. It's like saying, "sure, if a pig learns to fly, we should totally make that pig a senator." What happens when thousands of pigs start flying? Are you going to hand your entire government over to pigs, just because you said you would? Or are you going to change the rules?

If any old bridgeman can become a radiant and pull a new shardblade out of thin air, the rules need to change. The greedy, moneygrubbing lighteyes of Alethkar will not stand by and let an arbitrary custom undermine the social order that gives them their power.

[ZenBossanova]

3 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

 

If any old bridgeman can become a radiant and pull a new shardblade out of thin air, the rules need to change. The greedy, moneygrubbing lighteyes of Alethkar will not stand by and let an arbitrary custom undermine the social order that gives them their power.

A very good point. 

Two things that may help neutralize that, are that we are in the middle of a Desolation, and the religious implications of having actual Radiants. Of course, Dalinar is a heretic, so that last reason may not mean as much as usual. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

18 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Yes, but the rule that automatically elevates shardbearers was calibrated for traditional Alethi society. The nobles, who hold the power, abide by that rule because they know it's practically impossible for a darkeyes to acquire a shardblade. It's like saying, "sure, if a pig learns to fly, we should totally make that pig a senator." What happens when thousands of pigs start flying? Are you going to hand your entire government over to pigs, just because you said you would? Or are you going to change the rules?

If any old bridgeman can become a radiant and pull a new shardblade out of thin air, the rules need to change. The greedy, moneygrubbing lighteyes of Alethkar will not stand by and let an arbitrary custom undermine the social order that gives them their power.

Unfortunately for the Alethi lighteyes, they have very little real power to stand on currently. Alethkar has been overrun by Voidbringers, and they are currently guests in Urithiru. Other nations can walk out in a huff if they don't like what the coalition/KR are doing, The alethi don't have that option, since the only alternative they have is reconquering Alethkar, and if they leave Urithiru because they are pissed with the KR's authority they would be fighting a battle vs Fused and Singers with no KR on their side = bloodbath and defeat. 

Common soldiers follow their leaders (in this sort of society) mainly because they rule the land they are born in. Considering the alethi lighteyes no longer rule said land I'm not even certain if the common soldiers would keep following if they give the order to leave. Normally I would say yes, as common soldiers question little. But I seem to remember in OB most alethi armies in Urithiru (except for Sadeas) were increasingly merging together, doing manouvers together, drinking together, etc. When they start having a viable alternative commander to follow, and if given the choice between "lets go fight Voidbringers with no KR backup" vs "Let's wait and eventually fight Fused with KR backup" it would seem to open at least a split among most armies.

I don't really think all highprinces will stay in Urithiru, but I estimate half or more will stick around and simply try to manouver as much power as they can in the new world order. The remaining highprinces will leave and either be slaughtered or become part of the Odium forces.

Regarding the OP post, I could see that happening, but not sure how much I would like it. What I have no idea is what Kaladin's reaction to the suggestion would be.

Edited March 13, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[BraidedRose]

I don’t exactly love the idea, but admittedly that’s mostly for personal preference reasons. Mainly, I don’t feel like Jasnah should feel the need to make a political marriage since she already has an heir (Gavinor). And if she was only doing it for political reasons, it might seem to undermine Jasnah as queen in her own right. On the other hand maybe she would use it as an a logical justification for something she wants to do anyway. But I guess I’d rather just see her with a consort if she wants one. That may be out of the norm for Alethi royalty, but Jasnah is unorthodox so it wouldn’t necessarily stop her, especially during a desolation. 

As for Kaladin, I can’t see him agreeing to a marriage for purely political reasons. I think there would have to be more for him. I love what @Vissy pointed out and I think there are a couple other small indications that Jasnah is impressed and maybe intrigued or even attracted to Kaladin. So far I don’t see any of that on his side, but that could change. He did have a relationship of some kind with Tarah so it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a marriage or nothing for him either.

[Yezrien]

@WhiteLeeopard, that's a good point. I'm assuming some of the old social order has survived the chaos in Alethkar, which is probably a dicey proposition.

Clearly the desolation is going to change everything. With all the attention the books have given to the unjust inequalities in Alethi society, I'm sure all of that will be torn down, and a Radiant-centric leadership caste will arise in its place. And if that progresses quickly, a Kaladin-Jasnah marriage could certainly be proposed.

But I don't think Kaladin would go for it. Why? Because the only purpose of such a marriage is to cement the new Radiant aristocracy. It would lay the foundation of a new system in which Kaladin's descendants would have privilege because they inherit his bright blue eyes. In other words, a new system identical to the old system. Once Kaladin's eye color changes permanently, and he realizes that all the injustices he grew up with are ultimately the result of ancient Radiant supremacy, he will want no part in this.

He swore to protect, not to rule.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Belzedar

[WhiteLeeopard]

37 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I don’t exactly love the idea, but admittedly that’s mostly for personal preference reasons. Mainly, I don’t feel like Jasnah should feel the need to make a political marriage since she already has an heir (Gavinor). And if she was only doing it for political reasons, it might seem to undermine Jasnah as queen in her own right. On the other hand maybe she would use it as an a logical justification for something she wants to do anyway. But I guess I’d rather just see her with a consort if she wants one. That may be out of the norm for Alethi royalty, but Jasnah is unorthodox so it wouldn’t necessarily stop her, especially during a desolation. 

If Jasnah marries I absolutely don't think her husband would have the title of king, it would probably be Prince or Consort. Like you say, it may be out of the usual. However, IRL the problem of aristocracies for women to rule was often not that the nobles disliked the idea of a woman ruling, but that they knew if she married her husband would rule in her place, and they didn't want to risk a random husband that might not be one of them ruling the country. This would probably be present enough in SA that I doubt any queens that rule (like in Thaylen) and are married would grant the husband the title of king. Actually this is even showcased in modern monarchies which have a million less power than they used to. Monarchies where the king is the heir tend to have both the king and queen in place (Spain, Belgium). Yet when the women are the heirs they are the queen and the husband is usually prince or some other title, but not king (UK, Denmark).

28 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Clearly the desolation is going to change everything. With all the attention the books have given to the unjust inequalities in Alethi society, I'm sure all of that will be torn down, and a Radiant-centric leadership caste will arise in its place. And if that progresses quickly, a Kaladin-Jasnah marriage could certainly be proposed.

But I don't think Kaladin would go for it. Why? Because the only purpose of such a marriage is to cement the new Radiant aristocracy. It would lay the foundation of a new system in which Kaladin's descendants would have privilege because they inherit his bright blue eyes. In other words, a new system identical to the old system. Once Kaladin's eye color changes permanently, and he realizes that all the injustices he grew up with are ultimately the result of ancient Radiant supremacy, he will want no part in this.

He swore to protect, not to rule.

Its a good point too. 

My argument is that Jasnah would probably not care about the lighteye rule, her single political aim for marrying Kaladin would be so that house kholin is not swept out during the Desolation and destroyed. KR don't look like the sort that would really like to rule countries, and even if they wanted to nations would oppose that. Dalinar's idea of keeping Urithiru with good relations with all nations but only ruling absolutely in Urithiru is along the right lines. It also makes no sense to keep worshipping lighteyes when even the lowest darkeye can bond a spren and change eye color. Which would likely change the idea of how eye color is viewed. The most organic thing would be for countries to figure out how to introduce the KR into their new political order, then conitnue on as they were. Vorin countries obviously will have the biggest shake-up. Jasnah could also promise Kaladin to remove the dahn and nahn system, and just ask him to marry her to strengthen house Kholin. I can't say how Kaladin would react to that, as its something so bizarre I simply don't know what he would say.

 One last point. I don't see KR ruling countries because they are KR (but if the heir becomes a KR, sure). But, I could totally see KR becoming very appealing marriage potential for everyone, as marrying a KR shoots up your chances and your children's chances of becoming KR. So, while KR may not rule countries because of their radiantness, monarchs might play the odds to increase the chances of their house becoming Radiant to increase their authority. Then again this would mean juggling ruling their kingdom with the need to follow the rules of your order and possibly suggestions from the Bondsmiths. 

Edited March 13, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[Subvisual Haze]

I definitely see the seeds of a Jasnah/Kaladin union.  Whether the plot actually goes that direction I couldn't say, but the framing has been set up enough that it could.

Personality wise they aren't incompatible.  Both are intelligent, passionate and committed to doing the right thing.  Jasnah's more practical than Kaladin's idealist streak, but neither one is 100% inflexible in that regard.  They both also hold a lot of their thoughts/emotions inside.  With Kaladin we know what those thoughts are, but Jasnah is still something of a blank slate though.  It's possible Jasnah is asexual or not interested in men, but I think it more likely she's like Kaladin, "married to her job" (saving the world), not necessarily adverse to the idea of a relationship, but not really seeking one out either.  I could definitely see both growing closer and more familiar with each other as they spend time together.

I also see the story kind of maneuvering them into a situation where they likely will spend a lot more time together.  I think Queen Jasnah will struggle with her position.  Despite being extremely intelligent and capable the fact that she's a woman, a heretic, and is rather emotionally closed-off will present plenty of reasons for her subjects to not like her.  Knowing that Jezrien/Windrunners were associated with Leadership, and seeing the personal loyalty that Kaladin inspires from his squires, I think Jasnah will try to learn leadership soft skills from Kaladin.  Unfortunately though he wouldn't be able to teach his hilarious Charisma Aura he seems to have unlocked with the 3rd Oath which makes crowds of people stare at him whenever he's brooding or gazing into the distance though

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Personality wise they aren't incompatible.  Both are intelligent, passionate and committed to doing the right thing.  Jasnah's more practical than Kaladin's idealist streak, but neither one is 100% inflexible in that regard.  They both also hold a lot of their thoughts/emotions inside.  With Kaladin we know what those thoughts are, but Jasnah is still something of a blank slate though.  It's possible Jasnah is asexual or not interested in men, but I think it more likely she's like Kaladin, "married to her job" (saving the world), not necessarily adverse to the idea of a relationship, but not really seeking one out either.  I could definitely see both growing closer and more familiar with each other as they spend time together.

If you want to add another point, I think there is a good chance Windrunner 4th Oath is about been more coolly logical and knowing when to protect, and Elsecaller 4th Oath about doing what is right regardless of logic. If that is true they could help each other on their respective 4th Oaths . 

11 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Unfortunately though he wouldn't be able to teach his hilarious Charisma Aura he seems to have unlocked with the 3rd Oath which makes crowds of people and spren stare at him whenever he's brooding or gazing into the distance though

Slight correction .

Edited March 13, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard

[ZenBossanova]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:00 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

If you want to add another point, I think there is a good chance Windrunner 4th Oath is about been more coolly logical and knowing when to protect, and Elsecaller 4th Oath about doing what is right regardless of logic. If that is true they could help each other on their respective 4th Oaths . 

Slight correction .

I have wondered if his 4th or 5th oath would be to find a way to save the Parshmen. 

I also recall a WoB about that image with spears that goes along with Kaladin chapters, and how this will be more significant as time goes on. Kaladin has not nearly begun to peak, which makes the importance of a political marriage that much more urgent. 

[Subvisual Haze]

56 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I also recall a WoB about that image with spears that goes along with Kaladin chapters, and how this will be more significant as time goes on. Kaladin has not nearly begun to peak, which makes the importance of a political marriage that much more urgent. 

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

[Vissy]

21 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

That would be a hilarious way for Jasnadin to happen. And I would totally approve of that. XD

Edited March 14, 2018 by Vissy

[ZenBossanova]

Quote

Pillotsky

What's with the Stormlight Chapter symbols, and their similarity to other Cosmere symbols? I guess this is specifically talking about Kaladin and Shallan's symbols, and their resemblance to an Allomantic symbol and an Aon, respectively.

Is this just showing Roshar's place as significant in the Cosmere? Is there a reason those specific symbols were chosen for those characters? Anything you'd want to share, I'll take.

Brandon Sanderson

The meaning of Kaladin's symbol will be made manifest eventually. The connection to an Allomantic symbol, however, is mostly coincidental. (Both were drawn by Isaac.)

source

This is the one that I was thinking of, but it certainly gives more credit to what @Subvisual Haze  said

 

5 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

14 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!" -Death rattle. 

Hm, Tower and Crown is the Kholin glyph, Kaladin is the spear.  I could definitely buy this as hinting Kaladin marrying into the Kholin family and becoming High King.

I could almost interpret the spears on the chapter header image as being prongs on a symbolic crown.

Kaladin would loathe been High King, I doubt he would ever accept that. Not to mention he does not really have the experience to rule a country, or for diplomacy and politics. I don't see the second part happening. The first part of what you say and marrying into the Kholins to make that symbol, maybe.

[ZenBossanova]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Kaladin would loathe been High King, I doubt he would ever accept that. Not to mention he does not really have the experience to rule a country, or for diplomacy and politics. I don't see the second part happening. The first part of what you say and marrying into the Kholins to make that symbol, maybe.

I don't see Jasnah being a demure, submissive First Lady. She is Queen. If Kaladin is to rule, you can be sure, Jasnah will insist on an egalitarian power-sharing, co-rule. 

But yes, Kaladin will be very loathe to engage in anything like politics. The question is, is it necessary to save his people? That is his overriding concern. 

[Harbour]

Given Windrunner's traits are Protection and Leading, i think the last oaths would be connected with Leading. He would be the High King i believe. He will learn to lead. He will need to.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Harbour

[ZenBossanova]

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

Given Windrunner's traits are Protection and Leading, i think the last oaths would be connected with Leading. He would be the High King i believe. He will learn to lead. He will need to.

That is... Excellent. 

The first oath is always the same. 

The next two oaths have to do with the first trait, while the second two must have to do with the other trait. 

How does this work with the oaths Szeth was given? 

Edit: it isn't identical, but Szeth has oaths that pertain to both of his ideals, Justice and Confidence. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by ZenBossanova