Allomantic strength, experience, savantism, and hemalurgy

[marles]

Back again with some more thoughts/questions as I finish up my second reading of Mistborn Era 1. I wanted to try to get myself straightened out on how savantism develops and what it provides. As I understand it, an allomancer can become a savant by constantly burning (or maybe just burning a lot of it) a metal for a prolonged period of time. The extended use of the metal gives some added strength or effect to the metal when burned. I wanted to try to discuss a bit about how savantism differs from somebody having a large amount of raw allomantic strength or becoming experienced and nuanced in their use of the power. Feel free to correct me or blast craters into my thoughts wherever I may be mistaken.

TIN -----------------

We see this aspect of investiture developed a bit with Spook in HoA. In Spook's case we see that his use of tin becomes many times more powerful than somebody else burning tin and his body had become so used to that sensory input that without tin he is basically blind, deaf, numb, etc. His senses become so vastly improved it mentions that he can feel changes in air pressure from nearby movements granting him an a sort of atium-like effect. To me, tin is maybe harder to discuss than some other examples. When somebody burns tin, all senses are enhanced, and when they flare tin those senses are enhanced a bit further than burning normally. We don't see a stronger allomancer (like Eland) have anything close to the sensory gains that Spook receives from tin. Is it possible for an allomancer to focus their efforts to a single sense if they are experienced or trained well enough with tin (like an experienced bronze burner can tell what metal is being burned instead of just knowing allomancy is being used)?

BRONZE --------------

One power that is a bit unclear to me is bronze burning and the ability to pierce copper clouds. I assume that this is a benefit that could develop as one becomes a bronze savant. Again, we see Eland is unable to pierce copper clouds even though he is incredibly strong allomantically; however, Inquisitors and Vin have this ability. Vin does not seem to burn bronze to a point that I would think her a savant (at least earlier on in Era 1) and even Marsh doesn't mention being able to pierce copper clouds when (very briefly training Vin). We do know that Vin would be stronger in bronze than normal due to her spike, is this alone enough for her to kind of force her way through the copper clouds? I don't know if it is mentioned anywhere but I would assume Inquisitors probably don't have multiple spikes granting bronze alomancy (since I don't think they have a large number of spikes to begin with). However, I would think Inquisitors are burning bronze almost endlessly and could therefore all be savants. Is it possible for somebody to be a savant of a power stolen and spiked into them? Or is it possible that a savant fueling hemalurgy passes that savantism to the spike recipient?

BRASS --------------

I would assume that Breeze is a brass savant with how he basically never stops soothing anyone near him but I don't think we ever know if he has some other benefit gained from his endless use. The only real credit that is given him throughout the story is how subtle he is and how many people he can soothe at once. We know that Eland could effect large crowds because of his strength and I imagine that practice would allow for subtle touches while soothing. Could brass savantism allow emotional alomancy use on a person burning copper in a similar fashion to bronze piercing copper clouds? Is Breeze a savant? Does his savantism just give him an even more subtle touch or larger area of effect compared to an allomancer of similar strength? Or is there something else I could be missing about this power?

STEEL ---------------

If I remember correctly from my read of Era 2 (or maybe seeing some postings or something), Wax is described as a steel savant. In Wax's case we don't see somebody that can steel push many times harder than a normal steel misting. Instead, Wax has the ability to create a sort of steel-pushing bubble around him that also somehow does not push on his own metals within that area of effect. Not only can he create this bubble effect but it persists unconsciously while he dives into intense and incredibly stressful situations. Wax took part in many shootouts, did his steel pushing during these battles cause the savantism to develop in a way that directly benefits his frequent use of the ability?

I would like to jump back to Inquisitors while talking about steel, who have to constantly use steel to "see" given that the spikes are driven through their eyes. If Inquisitors (or anybody) can become savants of their hemalurgically-given powers I would say that Inquisitors would all have to be steel savants. I believe early on in HoA, Eland gets into a pushing match with an Inquisitor and we find out that his push is much stronger than the Inquisitor's (and I do not believe he uses duralumin in this instance). We do learn that even though the Inquisitors are not necessarily stronger with steel than other allomancers that they can see metal lines that a normal allomancer cannot (even to trace metals inside bodies iirc). Marsh also mentions at one point that he is able to even tell the color of objects from the metal lines. Simlar to Wax, does the Inquisitors' use of steel for vision cause the savantism to develop in a way that further aids them in seeing the world around them? Or do their vision-benefitting abilities of steel come from the fact that the spikes are binded to points in their eyes (do bind points alter the effect of the power granted through hemalurgy?)?

It also seemed to me (unless I misunderstood this throughout Era 1), that most/all normal allomancers/mistborn saw only a single blue line to a metal object's center whereas Inquisitors maybe sensed more lines per object (if they only saw one line per object their vision probably wouldn't be so great). There is one notable exception I can think of to this; there is a moment in TFE where Kelsier simultaneously pushed and pulled on opposite ends of a metal rod so that it rotated very quickly (I believe this is towards the end during the fight in which Kelsier dies). Do more experienced or better trained allomancers see more lines leading to metal objects? Was Kelsier's trick with the rod because of his better than average skill or was it possible that he was also a steel/iron savant?

[Niteshado]

30 minutes ago, marles said:

One power that is a bit unclear to me is bronze burning and the ability to pierce copper clouds

The reason Vin and Inquisitors can is because of Hemalurgy. Vins earring is a A-Bronze spike (her mother used it to kill her sister who was apparently a seeker) 

This allowed her to pierce Copperclouds. Its stated in the Hero of Ages

Quote

I don't know if it is mentioned anywhere but I would assume Inquisitors probably don't have multiple spikes granting bronze alomancy

If im not mistaken, All Inquisitors are Seeker Mistings to start with. It is why Marsh was also heavily recruited. So at this point all they would need is one A-Bronze spike and they can pierce Copperclouds

Quote

Kelsier simultaneously pushed and pulled on opposite ends of a metal rod so that it rotated very quickly

In Bands of Mourning Prologue, Wax sees the bullet he tosses as one line, until he focuses on it, and it turns into 3 lines. Bullet, casing, Primer. 

So for steel it could be how much you focus. BUT in BoM we also see Marasi take the Bands, and when using them, has blue lines pointing to everything, even water (i think). It could be how Heavily invested the object is with power (since we still dont understand this part). Multi spikes could also increase power, like it did with Bronze, but no one, including inquisitors, were able to push as hard as TLR. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Niteshado

[RShara]

26 minutes ago, Niteshado said:

If im not mistaken, All Inquisitors are Seeker Mistings to start with. It is why Marsh was also heavily recruited. So at this point all they would need is one A-Bronze spike and they can pierce Copperclouds

They preferred to take Mistborn, but Seekers were their second choice, if Mistborn weren't available, yeah.

Brandon's said a number of things about savantism, but the most relevant one is that going forward, he wants it to have both a benefit and a drawback, and that if a person is going to be a savant, he wants both to have strong thematic ties.  So basically, savantism will work more like what happened to Spook rather than what's happened with Wax.

 

If I remember correctly, in order to be a savant, you have to be constantly pushing your body with the power.  So basically, flaring it a lot.  I don't think a constant low-level burn would cause savantism.  Or, it would take much much much longer.

Edited March 12, 2018 by RShara

[marles]

Thanks for the response!

20 minutes ago, Niteshado said:

The reason Vin and Inquisitors can is because of Hemalurgy. Vins earring is a A-Bronze spike (her mother used it to kill her sister who was apparently a seeker) 

This allowed her to pierce Copperclouds. Its stated in the Hero of Ages

If im not mistaken, All Inquisitors are Seeker Mistings to start with. It is why Marsh was also heavily recruited. So at this point all they would need is one A-Bronze spike and they can pierce Copperclouds

I don't think I explained my lack of clarity on bronze very well. I thought that hemalurgy granted the use of the metal (if the person didn't have it) or boosted their power if they already could burn that metal. I was thinking that Vin, being mistborn, was just power boosted by the spike. I vaguely remember (not quite finished it again yet) HoA saying that she could pierce copper clouds because of the spike, but I wasn't sure if that was just because a bronze spike specifically grants the power to pierce copper clouds or because it gave her enough of a power boost to see through copper clouds.

I remember it being mentioned that Inquisitors are commonly seeker mistings to start but I don't remember it saying that they all were. I'll have to try to go back and find where it is mentioned.

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, marles said:

Thanks for the response!

I don't think I explained my lack of clarity on bronze very well. I thought that hemalurgy granted the use of the metal (if the person didn't have it) or boosted their power if they already could burn that metal. I was thinking that Vin, being mistborn, was just power boosted by the spike. I vaguely remember (not quite finished it again yet) HoA saying that she could pierce copper clouds because of the spike, but I wasn't sure if that was just because a bronze spike specifically grants the power to pierce copper clouds or because it gave her enough of a power boost to see through copper clouds.

I remember it being mentioned that Inquisitors are commonly seeker mistings to start but I don't remember it saying that they all were. I'll have to try to go back and find where it is mentioned.

It gave her a power boost so that she could see through copper clouds.  The earring was made from her sister, that her mother killed to make the earring.  The sister was a Seeker.

[Niteshado]

2 minutes ago, marles said:

but I wasn't sure if that was just because a bronze spike specifically grants the power to pierce copper clouds or because it gave her enough of a power boost to see through copper clouds.

She couldnt pierce clouds without the ring in her ear, it boosted it enough to allow her to pierce. 

 

Also with wax, He pushes harder i believe from his increased weight. the bubble i honestly believe is from him being weaker.

If you remember in Era 1, they stated that the allomancy actually got weaker over the years, its why Elend is so strong, because he was at full power from Lesarium. Overall, through the generations, Allomancy weakened.

I think because of this, Wax is actually way weaker than Steel mistings/Mistborns from Era 1.

My Theory: Remember Zane? he rotated on the coin and pushed himself slowly when with Vin. I think due to the raw power they possessed, that ability was extremely hard. 

       Now you have wax, who can push a bubble out. I think its more control, but i think overall his powers are degraded from generations, making this easier to do. Now being able to push out and not push on his items, i think comes from a sub-conscience process, like how he turned the bullet he pushed from 1 to 3 lines.  

[marles]

Is there somewhere that mentions characters' relative allomantic strength in a somewhat quantitative manner? In Era 1 we have Vin burning bronze with allomantic strength that has degraded over 1000 years + the strength of a bronze spike (probably slightly less powerful than her own ability but roughly equivalent). Inquisitors would probably be somewhat close to that strength as well. Then we have Elend, who has the full strength of an original mistborn. We know he can't pierce copper clouds, so he is less than twice as strong as a normal allomancer from that time period. But where in that range does he fit, 25%, 50%, 75% more powerful?

Also, speaking of hemalurgy, does the size of the spike matter? We know that feruchemical stores have an upper limit to how much investiture they can hold that depends on the size of the metal itself. Does hemalurgy work similarly where if a spike was not at least a certain size you could not steal the entirety of a person's ability? Obviously if that were the case an overly large spike wouldn't steal more than what a person has originally, but I'm curious if it's possible to not grab all of a person's strength.

Edited March 12, 2018 by marles

[The One Who Connects]

30 minutes ago, marles said:

Is it possible for an Allomancer to focus their efforts to a single sense if they are experienced or trained well enough with tin

That depends on your definition of "efforts." They can train themselves to mentally focus more on the inputs from a specific sense, just like we can. But the power of the Tin itself, that's always gonna affect all of them, like the other metals.

30 minutes ago, marles said:

1) Again, we see Elend is unable to pierce copper clouds even though he is incredibly strong Allomantically; however, Inquisitors and Vin have this ability.
2) We do know that Vin would be stronger in bronze than normal due to her spike, is this alone enough for her to kind of force her way through the copper clouds?
3) I would assume Inquisitors probably don't have multiple spikes granting bronze Allomancy (since I don't think they have a large number of spikes to begin with). However, I would think Inquisitors are burning bronze almost endlessly and could therefore all be savants.

1) Elend could do that, but it'd take practice.
2) It's the difference in strength between the Coppercloud and the Seeker, so I'd say yes.
3) Many Inquisitors used to be seekers(like Marsh), so they've got the 2x power anyway. That said, Bronze is the easy power to become a savant in.

Quote

Questioner
So can bronze savants pierce Copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the Coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner
So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce Copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson
Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

---

30 minutes ago, marles said:

1) Is it possible for somebody to be a savant of a power stolen and spiked into them?
2) Or is it possible that a savant fueling Hemalurgy passes that savantism to the spike recipient?

1) No.
2) What does this mean?

Quote

CealdishOrbLender
Can being an Allomantic Savant be transferred through Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson
A Savant cannot be, good question. No one's asked me that before.

---

33 minutes ago, marles said:

I would assume that Breeze is a brass savant with how he basically never stops soothing anyone near him but I don't think we ever know if he has some other benefit gained from his endless use. The only real credit that is given him throughout the story is how subtle he is and how many people he can soothe at once.

I agree that if anyone was a Soother Savant, it'd be Breeze. As for what it gave him, I'm not sure...

On 4/13/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I also have Breeze's accounts on Soothing large groups: he states that 1,000 men is too many for a single soother. He himself can only manage a few hundred at once if they are "packed closely together and he was only focusing on simple emotions." He had to go through his 1,000 men in sets, and the fear of impending Koloss was coming back to the first sets when he was finishing up the last ones.

This is a paraphrasing of his account during the Siege of Luthadel. His power is limited in 3 ways: number of people, area of effect, and complexity of effect. Savanthood probably increased at least one of those above the average soother, but we don't have proper examples to compare with.

Also, I personally think his subtle touch was a result of him practicing to attain that light touch, rather than from Savanthood. TLR was a Savant too, and his soothings hit like a freight train(The first time we experience it in the book, Vin nearly got knocked from her perch by the sheer force of it).

49 minutes ago, marles said:

Wax is described as a steel savant.

Brandon is considering backpedaling on that. Issues with the drawbacks from Savanthood, Wax's Resonance, etc..

53 minutes ago, marles said:

I would like to jump back to Inquisitors while talking about steel, who have to constantly use steel to "see" given that the spikes are driven through their eyes. If Inquisitors (or anybody) can become savants of their hemalurgically-given powers I would say that Inquisitors would all have to be steel savants.

I agree(and think that's confirmed somewhere..)

54 minutes ago, marles said:

Similar to Wax, does the Inquisitors' use of steel for vision cause the savantism to develop in a way that further aids them in seeing the world around them? Or do their vision-benefiting abilities of steel come from the fact that the spikes are binded to points in their eyes (do bind points alter the effect of the power granted through Hemalurgy?)?

A non-Inquisitor can attain Steelsight, for your information. Brandon does not specify Savant, so it might not even require that.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

---

58 minutes ago, marles said:

It also seemed to me (unless I misunderstood this throughout Era 1), that most/all normal allomancers/mistborn saw only a single blue line to a metal object's center whereas Inquisitors maybe sensed more lines per object (if they only saw one line per object their vision probably wouldn't be so great). There is one notable exception I can think of to this; there is a moment in TFE where Kelsier simultaneously pushed and pulled on opposite ends of a metal rod so that it rotated very quickly (I believe this is towards the end during the fight in which Kelsier dies). Do more experienced or better trained allomancers see more lines leading to metal objects? Was Kelsier's trick with the rod because of his better than average skill or was it possible that he was also a steel/iron savant?

To me, I see it as a six of one, half-dozen of the other situation.

Wax sees the bullet in multiple parts because he sees the bullet as multiple items(the perception argument), while the layman sees a bullet as a single object. You know that a car is a collection of parts, but you see it as one thing. A mechanic probably wouldn't, and if you put your mind to it, you could see it as a collection of parts again. Magnets are actually one object, but they have a North and a South Pole to them. We see a single object as having distinct parts, and Kelsier could have achieved what he did via the same concept, by seeing the two ends as "separate."

On the other side of the equation, there's Allomantic strength(via Spikes/Lerasium, or from the Savant boost). TLR was physically strong enough to push on the metals within Vin's body(both her stomach and the rest of her body) as well as the trace metal in the colorings from his stained glass window. Niteshado points out that Marisi was capable of similar feats while holding the Bands. But that only showed her things she wasn't strong enough to see normally. For all her power, she'd still see the bullet as one object.

10 minutes ago, marles said:

Then we have Elend, who has the full strength of an original mistborn. We know he can't pierce copper clouds, so he is less than twice as strong as a normal allomancer from that time period.

Days without Incident: 256. (Wow, has it really been that long since last time this was discussed?)

On 6/29/2017 at 10:35 AM, The One Who Connects said:

It just doesn't feel right to me that two 10th century spikes could match Lerasium(slightly above a 1st century spike). Actually, using the WoB mentioned above and your interpretation of how strong 2 spikes are, the first Inquisitor to gain a Duralumin spike would be nearly at TLR levels in whatever powers they had, and that doesn't seem like something TLR would allow.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin.

Lerasium MB doing a Duralumin Soothing could match base TLR. If a double spike in 10th century could match a Lerasium MB, then a single spike in 4th or 5th century would be close to Lerasium by default, and adding Duralumin would nearly equate to Elend with Duralumin, which Brandon has said could match TLR. Given how much TLR hid from the world and his Inquisitors to keep his advantages, I don't think he would allow something that could challenge him.

I stand by what I said then.

26 minutes ago, marles said:

but I'm curious if it's possible to not grab all of a person's strength.

I could easily see that, but there's also Hemalurgic Decay to contend with, so I don't think you're getting all of it anyway.

[marles]

Thanks for the thorough response, especially with all the WoB's.

39 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

---

1) Is it possible for somebody to be a savant of a power stolen and spiked into them?
2) Or is it possible that a savant fueling Hemalurgy passes that savantism to the spike recipient?

1) No.
2) What does this mean?

By my interpretation your WoB from number 1 was answering my question from number 2. In number one I'm asking if somebody has an ability spiked into them, can they use it to the point of becoming a savant of that ability. I assumed this possible as I was assuming that Inquisitors were steel savants (and we know Marsh only gained that ability from being spiked). But if you consider that steel-sight may be available to any steel misting and not actually a savant ability then this answer could still be up in the air unless there is other proof? Basically unless we saw for certain a savant ability being used by somebody spiked or a WoB saying it isn't possible we wouldn't know for certain.

The second question I was asking was about taking savantism from somebody by using hemalurgy, which sounds like what the WoB is saying. Basically, since savantism changes a person, I wanted to know if, for instance, somebody spiked Spook to take his tin allomancy, would it be possible that they are instantly a tin savant or just a tin misting.

39 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is a paraphrasing of his account during the Siege of Luthadel. His power is limited in 3 ways: number of people, area of effect, and complexity of effect. Savanthood probably increased at least one of those above the average soother, but we don't have proper examples to compare with.

Also, I personally think his subtle touch was a result of him practicing to attain that light touch, rather than from Savanthood. TLR was a Savant too, and his soothings hit like a freight train(The first time we experience it in the book, Vin nearly got knocked from her perch by the sheer force of it).

I was thinking his subtle touch was because of practice as well but I also thought that TLR ruler's soothing hit like a freight train because that was what he wanted. Just like Vin sometimes subtly touches peoples emotions at some points but also, on occasion, completely bashes people over the head with brass+duralumin pushes.

39 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

1 hour ago, marles said:

Then we have Elend, who has the full strength of an original mistborn. We know he can't pierce copper clouds, so he is less than twice as strong as a normal allomancer from that time period.

Days without Incident: 256. (Wow, has it really been that long since last time this was discussed?)

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:35 AM, The One Who Connects said:

It just doesn't feel right to me that two 10th century spikes could match Lerasium(slightly above a 1st century spike). Actually, using the WoB mentioned above and your interpretation of how strong 2 spikes are, the first Inquisitor to gain a Duralumin spike would be nearly at TLR levels in whatever powers they had, and that doesn't seem like something TLR would allow.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin.

Lerasium MB doing a Duralumin Soothing could match base TLR. If a double spike in 10th century could match a Lerasium MB, then a single spike in 4th or 5th century would be close to Lerasium by default, and adding Duralumin would nearly equate to Elend with Duralumin, which Brandon has said could match TLR. Given how much TLR hid from the world and his Inquisitors to keep his advantages, I don't think he would allow something that could challenge him.

I stand by what I said then.

I skimmed that thread a bit because I wasn't sure I was understanding at first. It's also a bit hard to discuss because for the most part we don't know when most of the Inquisitor spikes were created (to know approximately their possible initial strength) or how many times they have been passed from Inquisitor to Inquisitor (to have some idea of how much the power has decayed). Most of this discussion I tried not to really bring up TLR though because he crafted his own strength when he ascended and I didn't know how powerful he was in relation to other allomancers.

But we know for certain that Elend cannot pierce copper clouds when Vin is able to. She has a bronze spike created from her sister so she is somewhere between 1 and 2 times as strong as an average 10th century allomancer (probably closer to 2 times since there would be minimal losses from the short time it took to transfer her spike). Given that and that above it is agreed upon that the copper piercing is strength related more so than savant related, I would say that Elend, or any other Lerasium MB must be less than twice as powerful as 10th century allomancers. I don't really think that rate of decay is that farfetched though.

TLR didn't want people to be able to challenge him but nobody during his rule ever really stood that chance. By vastly dropping feruchemist numbers he was able to reduce the chance of a fullborn down to essentially 0%. Without compounding the only other chance somebody might have is probably to be spiked many times. But we know that TLR's Inquisitors only usually had ~10 spikes and I don't remember (could be wrong though) any of them having duralumin during his rule. And in any case, if an Inquisitor did have duralumin, so would TLR and his power would just be absurd at that point. We know that TLR was so secure and confident in his position that he fell to Vin, which should have never even had the slightest chance in happening given all the power he had available to him.

[The One Who Connects]

16 minutes ago, marles said:

By my interpretation your WoB from number 1 was answering my question from number 2. In number one I'm asking if somebody has an ability spiked into them, can they use it to the point of becoming a savant of that ability.

Ah. I.. don't see why not. (Though I can't confirm this)

23 minutes ago, marles said:

But we know that TLR's Inquisitors only usually had ~10 spikes and I don't remember any of them having duralumin during his rule.

They did, actually.

Quote

Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler’s divine reputation.

---

18 minutes ago, marles said:

But we know for certain that Elend cannot pierce copper clouds when Vin is able to.

As was mentioned in my prior post, he can. He just... doesn't(and I really don't know why). Brandon says he can learn to do it "by brute force," whatever that means. Thoughts on this?

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

1) No.

I disagree with your interpretation of that WoB. It's just saying that if someone spiked Spook during HoA, they couldn't take the changes that tin savantism caused and apply it to someone else. It doesn't say that, for instance, Spook couldn't have become a savant in the pewter allomancy power he had granted to him through hemalurgy.

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

I disagree with your interpretation of that WoB. It's just saying that if someone spiked Spook during HoA, they couldn't take the changes that tin savantism caused and apply it to someone else. It doesn't say that, for instance, Spook couldn't have become a savant in the pewter allomancy power he had granted to him through hemalurgy.

marles already pointed out that I misinterpreted his two questions.

You cannot steal Savantism. Whether or not you can become a Savant in a stolen power is unconfirmed(but you almost certainly can).

[marles]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

2 hours ago, marles said:

But we know for certain that Elend cannot pierce copper clouds when Vin is able to.

As was mentioned in my prior post, he can. He just... doesn't(and I really don't know why). Brandon says he can learn to do it "by brute force," whatever that means. Thoughts on this?

It sounded like he was saying Elend could learn this ability by becoming a savant or possibly even just more practice, but I could be misinterpreting it. I was thinking he is different because when we first see Vin piercing copper clouds I don't think she would have been a savant by that point. I would have to go back and read through again to find the first point she is piercing a copper cloud but I think it was relatively early on when she had to still kind of mentally remind herself to use those powers, not at a point where she was most likely burning it constantly. That made me think she was piercing copper clouds based on raw strength alone, not as a real developed skill, whereas Elend receives his Lerasium MB powers and is not piercing clouds even after all the time that has passed until the end of Era 1.

So I wasn't necessarily trying to say that Elend absolutely could not and never would be able to pierce copper clouds. Just that it seemed like in the same developmental/training stages of their powers Vin's 10th century MB power + the 10th century spike were stronger than Elend's Lerasium MB power. But again there are other factors that could play into this like Vin using the power without her knowing before she knew she was MB giving her a training edge and such.

[Calderis]

Elend definitely has the strength to do it. That's really all there is to piercing copperclouds is being stronger than the smoker. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Can bronze+duralumin pierce copperclouds for a split second?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, for an instant.

source

At the level that everyone is at, Elend should be stronger than Vin, even with her spike. I'm honestly surprised that it's something he needs to "learn." He should be able to just push through a coppercloud on accident from being so much stronger than everyone else of that era.

I mean, it works in both directions too. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Does having multiple people burn copper make it harder to pierce them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

source

 

[Yata]

I see Elend as an incompetent Seeker, he has the power but not the skill/talent to filter among the Pulses and something like that.

Probably he is able to access the Pulses hidden by a Coppercloud but he has not the skill to understand what he is hearing.

I am quite sad Brandon never tested this Vin's skill, for example:

- Vin never mentioned to be unable to pierce Elend's copperclouds (as she can't be able to pierce a Coppercloud of that level)

- Vin never tried to make Clubs or anyone else Flare copper to see if she is still able to pierce the cloud

Vin is quite diffident and methodic...She will never trust a skill without test its limits

Edited March 13, 2018 by Yata

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, marles said:

 I assumed this possible as I was assuming that Inquisitors were steel savants (and we know Marsh only gained that ability from being spiked). But if you consider that steel-sight may be available to any steel misting and not actually a savant ability then this answer could still be up in the air unless there is other proof?

Well, given that Marsh could see with steel-sight pretty much immediately after his creation as an Inquisitor, it stands to reason that it can't be a savant ability. IIRC, it was only weeks at most between his initiation and the final showdown of TFE - not enough time to become a savant even if he kept his steel/iron flared all the time. Unless having the eye-spikes rammed through one's brain confers savantism automatically? I can't help but think that these spikes must have some additional effects that those placed elsewhere don't. Because why would Kelsier go for such noticeable bind-point to regain his corporeality rather than something less conscpicious otherwise?

From what I understand about the Inquisitors made from Seekers during TLR's reign, all of them had a basic set of spikes: 2 for Steel, 2 for Iron, 1 for Bronze, 1 for Pewter and then 4-5 spikes that varied from individual to individual for specialization.

Quote

 She has a bronze spike created from her sister so she is somewhere between 1 and 2 times as strong as an average 10th century allomancer (probably closer to 2 times since there would be minimal losses from the short time it took to transfer her spike). Given that and that above it is agreed upon that the copper piercing is strength related more so than savant related, I would say that Elend, or any other Lerasium MB must be less than twice as powerful as 10th century allomancers.

Yea, I know all the in-books reasoning, Annotations and WoBs, but the effect of Vin's earring on her Bronze pulses is still not consistent with what is demonstrated in HoA concerning normal hemalurgic charge  decay. There is that chapter where Ruin-controlled Marsh makes a spike out of a Coppercloud noble in order to spike Penrod. And according to his ruminations, not only should the size of the spike matter - in that smaller ones don't hold as much, and Vin's would be small indeed, but also that the charge quickly decays outside a body. And we know that Vin didn't always wear her earring during her street career - in fact, when Kelsier recruited her, she hadn't worn it for months. So, really, it shouldn't enhance her abilities by much, hemalurgy or no. IMHO, either Ruin put his thumb on the scale re: strength and persistence of it's charge, or Vin being Preservation's chosen specifically strengthened her Bronze compared to her other metals, so that even a little extra made her capable of punching copperclouds, or combination of both. Which is why it can't serve as a standard for Vin versus Elend strength comparison . YMMV.

Quote

TLR didn't want people to be able to challenge him but nobody during his rule ever really stood that chance. By vastly dropping feruchemist numbers he was able to reduce the chance of a fullborn down to essentially 0%.

Of course, from what we know about Era 2, it looks like there wasn't much risk of that anyway, unless one of the Feruchemists got their hands on a bead of lerasium. But a team of Twinborns working in concert and making a good use of their abilities may have been somewhat of a threat to him, perhaps? Not to mention that if the origin of his abilities could be understood and explained as a combination of talents that other people had, he'd look a lot less divine. I also wonder how the WoBs about TLR having children fit into all of this:

Quote

We know that TLR was so secure and confident in his position that he fell to Vin, which should have never even had the slightest chance in happening given all the power he had available to him.

Yea, Ruin must have been seriously messing with his mind. I still don't entirely understand why Rashek didn't use Iron Pull and/or immediately tap physical/mental speed Feruchemy after Vin pushed the atium armbands off him, instead of just grabbing for and running after them without any enhancement. His other jewelry should have consisted of metalminds for attributes other than age, yes?

And BTW, I think that there is a WoB that weakening of Allomantic abilities stopped after the Catacendre, so Wax wouldn't necessarily be weaker than a run-of-the-mill Vin-era coinshot.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Isilel

[marles]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Well, given that Marsh could see with steel-sight pretty much immediately after his creation as an Inquisitor, it stands to reason that it can't be a savant ability. IIRC, it was only weeks at most between his initiation and the final showdown of TFE - not enough time to become a savant even if he kept his steel/iron flared all the time. Unless having the eye-spikes rammed through one's brain confers savantism automatically? I can't help but think that these spikes must have some additional effects that those placed elsewhere don't. Because why would Kelsier go for such noticeable bind-point to regain his corporeality rather than something less conscpicious otherwise?

Steel sight being instant when they were spiked was one thing I didn't think about when I first posted. Between that and the WoB posted earlier saying others could learn steel sight convinces me it isn't something related to savantism at all, probably mostly training and experience. For the Inquisitors I'm going to assume it occurs so quickly because the spikes are driven through bind points in their eyes. I would imagine that bind points have some difference between them, or at least maybe when paired with the proper hemalurgic spike.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yea, I know all the in-books reasoning, Annotations and WoBs, but the effect of Vin's earring on her Bronze pulses is still not consistent with what is demonstrated in HoA concerning normal hemalurgic charge  decay. There is that chapter where Ruin-controlled Marsh makes a spike out of a Coppercloud noble in order to spike Penrod. And according to his ruminations, not only should the size of the spike matter - in that smaller ones don't hold as much, and Vin's would be small indeed, but also that the charge quickly decays outside a body. And we know that Vin didn't always wear her earring during her street career - in fact, when Kelsier recruited her, she hadn't worn it for months. So, really, it shouldn't enhance her abilities by much, hemalurgy or no. IMHO, either Ruin put his thumb on the scale re: strength and persistence of it's charge, or Vin being Preservation's chosen specifically strengthened her Bronze compared to her other metals, so that even a little extra made her capable of punching copperclouds, or combination of both. Which is why it can't serve as a standard for Vin versus Elend strength comparison . YMMV.

Thanks for pointing this out too. I was not remembering that Vin hadn't been wearing the earring for awhile, so I would agree, the charge should have decayed quite a bit unless there was some other external intervention there.

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

And BTW, I think that there is a WoB that weakening of Allomantic abilities stopped after the Catacendre, so Wax wouldn't necessarily be weaker than a run-of-the-mill Vin-era coinshot.

I hadn't seen that WoB before (still pretty new to the Cosmere) and that is interesting to know. I was thinking that the allomantic strength decay over generations had to be pretty small otherwise by the time we see Era 4 (although I don't really know how far into the future this is really supposed to be) allomancers almost might as well not have any powers unless of course there was some intervention by Harmony to return the strength to previous levels.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

And BTW, I think that there is a WoB that weakening of Allomantic abilities stopped after the Catacendre, so Wax wouldn't necessarily be weaker than a run-of-the-mill Vin-era coinshot.

I'm fairly certain that it stopped during Wax's era. So he would be weaker, albeit probably not by too much. I even found a WoB(eventually)

Quote

audiofreedom
Are Allomancer more or less common than in the time of the Survivor?

Brandon Sanderson
They are more common, but slightly less powerful.

---

9 minutes ago, marles said:

I hadn't seen that WoB before (still pretty new to the Cosmere) and that is interesting to know. I was thinking that the allomantic strength decay over generations had to be pretty small otherwise by the time we see Era 4 (although I don't really know how far into the future this is really supposed to be) allomancers almost might as well not have any powers unless of course there was some intervention by Harmony to return the strength to previous levels.

The default strength of Mistings are shown in Alendi and Wax. TLR artificially strengthened the system with the Lerasium, and it's been trying to revert to normal ever since, and they're returned to that by Wax's time. They aren't getting any weaker anymore.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

From what I understand about the Inquisitors made from Seekers during TLR's reign, all of them had a basic set of spikes: 2 for Steel, 2 for Iron, 1 for Bronze, 1 for Pewter and then 4-5 spikes that varied from individual to individual for specialization.

Your total is a bit high. Per Vin, TLR's Inquisitors normally had 9 or 10. Once Ruin got free though, they all got an extra 2-4(except Marsh, who doubled his Spike count).

Quote

Normal Inquisitors had nine spikes. The one she'd killed with Elend had ten. Marsh appeared to have upwards of twenty. He growled softly.

---

41 minutes ago, marles said:

Steel sight being instant when they were spiked was one thing I didn't think about when I first posted. Between that and the WoB posted earlier saying others could learn steel sight convinces me it isn't something related to savantism at all, probably mostly training and experience. For the Inquisitors I'm going to assume it occurs so quickly because the spikes are driven through bind points in their eyes. I would imagine that bind points have some difference between them, or at least maybe when paired with the proper hemalurgic spike.

I'd put it more on the lack or normal sight distracting them than on the Bind Points. Here on earth, the deaf can gain great skill in lip-reading, but it's a lot tougher for you and me because we are so dependent on our ears. Allomancers will be similarly dependent on their normal sight. Inquisitors no longer have that distraction, so they can focus their efforts on their Steelsight.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yea, Ruin must have been seriously messing with his mind. I still don't entirely understand why Rashek didn't use Iron Pull and/or immediately tap physical/mental speed Feruchemy after Vin pushed the atium armbands off him, instead of just grabbing for and running after them without any enhancement. His other jewelry should have consisted of metalminds for attributes other than age, yes?

The same reason that [Warbreaker Spoilers] got killed by Vasher: Shock.

• Marsh had killed his Inquisitors, and had betrayed him. (More the anger & betrayal than shock, but that's tipping his emotional balance)
• Vin had recognized who he really was. (That would shock him, given how much effort he'd gone to to wipe that name from legend)
• His Armbands were quite literally ripped out of his skin. (The wound isn't the biggest deal to him, but the loss of Metalminds would do something)
• Someone had actually hurt him, and in a way that F-Gold could not heal. (This would be more on damaging his immortal self-image)
• TLR's body was rapidly going from age 25-30ish to age 1050. (I'd think this would be a shocking, and probably uncomfortable, experience)

Any number of these things could have have shocked him into not thinking straight. Also, given how Invested Vin needed to be to push on them, I don't think TLR could have just Ironpulled his Armbands back to him. Speed would probably have worked, but I don't think TLR is experienced enough to deal with shock. TLR was essentially immortal, in more ways than one, and had been that way for 1,000+ years. That sort of power doesn't really give him many situations where he'd be shocked/in danger, and the overconfidence doesn't help matters.

[Yata]

The Atiuminds were for so long parte of him to merge (at a degree) with his spiritual. Removing them was both an emotive and a Spiritual shock...I Will not say It's like Hemalurgy but something in the same "type" of sensation.

He would not be' able to focus for a while After that

[Isilel]

On 13.3.2018 at 4:23 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I'm fairly certain that it stopped during Wax's era. So he would be weaker, albeit probably not by too much. I even found a WoB(eventually)

Thanks! Though "slightly less powerful" may allude to the lack of Mistborn, rather than strength of individual Mistings, maybe?

On 13.3.2018 at 4:23 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Your total is a bit high. Per Vin, TLR's Inquisitors normally had 9 or 10. Once Ruin got free though, they all got an extra 2-4(except Marsh, who doubled his Spike count).

In TFE Marsh said that he had 11, though:

"Eleven?" Vin asked with shock

Marsh nodded. "Two in the head, eight in the chest, one in the back to seal them together"

Maybe Inquisitors who had 9 were made from Mistborn? Because starting with a Seeker, 9 is kinda low to make a killing machine that an Inquisitor is supposed to be, even against normal Mistborn. IIRC, they are supposed to be particularly strong in Steel and Iron - so double spikes there are are a must, I figure. Not to mention that I am not even sure if their vision could work if both the eye-spikes don't have the same ability. I somehow think that it should be harder to use in such a case.

But once we get the basic abilities out of the way: 2 Steel, 2 Iron, 1 Bronze and 1 Pewter, 3 additional spikes are just too few to diversify and yet have the abilities be sufficiently strong, because of hemalurgic decay. For one thing, to be able to lead the Koloss they'd need either double of  Soothing or Rioting,  or one of either and  1 Duralumin and IIRC very few of them have that last. And only 1 Pewter would actually make them frailer than a natural Mistborn/Thug, rather than tougher like they ought to be, unless they had a way to find particularly strong Mistings to spike, so they'd need either a second Pewter or F-Gold. No room for Atium or Tin ... I dunno. 

 

On 13.3.2018 at 4:23 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I'd put it more on the lack or normal sight distracting them than on the Bind Points. Here on earth, the deaf can gain great skill in lip-reading, but it's a lot tougher for you and me because we are so dependent on our ears. Allomancers will be similarly dependent on their normal sight. Inquisitors no longer have that distraction, so they can focus their efforts on their Steelsight.

Yes, but iRL nobody masters such skills within days. Yet, the showdown happened very soon after Marsh was made Inquisitor:

"I was going to send  word of my survival, but they watched me fairly closely that first day. I didn't expect Kell to make his move so quickly."

BTW, an idle thought - the Inquisitors shouldn't be able to see their reflections in mirrors and the like, right? I mean, Steelsight shouldn't allow for it.

 

On 13.3.2018 at 4:23 PM, The One Who Connects said:

The same reason that [Warbreaker Spoilers] got killed by Vasher: Shock.

Well, I'd say that there was an unavoidable physiological reaction in that case, that couldn't be circumvented by quick thinking. TLR had a magical tool to massively enhance his quick thinking and a few moments when he could act - and did so, stupidly, but yea. He was massively complacent, unprepared, surprised and just didn't do the right things in time. TLR also was monstrously powerful as an Allomancer, so if Vin could Push on his other metalminds even before taking in the mists, he probably could have Pulled on atium bands, if he flared Iron. But well, he didn't and then it was too late.

[The One Who Connects]

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

Though "slightly less powerful" may allude to the lack of Mistborn, rather than strength of individual Mistings, maybe?

Personally, I wouldn't word it that way if I wanted to say that, but I don't think I can say whether or not Brandon would.

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

In TFE Marsh said that he had 11, though:

My "normal inquisitors had 9" line is from HoA, which is definitely after Vin learned Marsh had 11. Granted, Marsh's MAG page says that he had 10, so I don't know.

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

Maybe Inquisitors who had 9 were made from Mistborn? Because starting with a Seeker, 9 is kinda low to make a killing machine that an Inquisitor is supposed to be, even against normal Mistborn. IIRC, they are supposed to be particularly strong in Steel and Iron - so double spikes there are are a must, I figure.

They are more than likely Savants in those metals on account of high usage of Steelsight. Most Inquisitors have extended lifespans, which would make them from a less weakened generation of Allomancers. A few began as Mistborn. Also, some of them had A-Duralumin.

I think some combination of those things should account for a reputation of being "particularly strong" without necessitating double spikes.

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

Not to mention that I am not even sure if their vision could work if both the eye-spikes don't have the same ability.

Why not? Steelsight works with one spike, and we know that people with no spikes can learn to use Steelsight. I don't see any reason that having two different eyespikes would interfere with Steelsight.

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

But once we get the basic abilities out of the way: 2 Steel, 2 Iron, 1 Bronze and 1 Pewter, 3 additional spikes are just too few to diversify and yet have the abilities be sufficiently strong, because of hemalurgic decay. For one thing, to be able to lead the Koloss they'd need either double of  Soothing or Rioting,  or one of either and  1 Duralumin and IIRC very few of them have that last. And only 1 Pewter would actually make them frailer than a natural Mistborn/Thug, rather than tougher like they ought to be, unless they had a way to find particularly strong Mistings to spike, so they'd need either a second Pewter or F-Gold. No room for Atium or Tin ... I dunno. 

I'll direct you to the Inquisitor Builds thread from last year. I believe in specializations. Also, I'll echo hwiles' point about Tin:

Quote

They were blind and navigated by steelsight, which meant they could already "see" in total darkness and pierce the mists.  Enhanced hearing seems redundant when you can pierce copperclouds, and can actually be a weakness, and considering that their spikes caused them constant pain and discomfort, I would think that enhanced sense of touch would be extremely uncomfortable for them.  Taste and smell seem almost useless in a world covered in smoke and ash, at least in terms of hunting people in a city.

We know that "Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes" so some will have F-Gold like Kar did, others will have A-Duralumin, etc.. They didn't even all have Atium. With Tin potentially out of the picture, and several spikes being non-standard, I think it's entirely possible for them to manage 9 spikes.

On 3/14/2018 at 0:44 PM, Isilel said:

Yes, but IRL nobody masters such skills within days. Yet, the showdown happened very soon after Marsh was made Inquisitor:

Hrmm, I got the impression(from someone's comment on here, possibly) that at least a week passed. Still isn't enough time to "master" it, but it's better than nothing. He doesn't need to see perfectly, just well enough.

The Inquisitorius are a secretive community, and they've all gone though the blindness phase before. Perhaps they help the recruits practice to get them out in the field faster? Just throwing out ideas here. You make an interesting point about mirrors, I haven't considered that before.

Edited March 16, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[cometaryorbit]

On 3/12/2018 at 5:36 PM, The One Who Connects said:

As was mentioned in my prior post, he can. He just... doesn't(and I really don't know why). Brandon says he can learn to do it "by brute force," whatever that means. Thoughts on this?
 

Elend has enormous power, but relatively limited skill. It's not just inexperience, either, IMO - by the time HOA begins he's been a Mistborn for a year. Vin has an exceptional intuition for Allomancy - probably because of Connection with Preservation or something like that. Stuff that she could just do pretty much immediately, he'd have to take time to learn. (And since Vin didn't know why she could pierce copperclouds, Elend might not have known he had the potential & thus never bothered to try to learn.)

And Vin's base (pre-spike) strength is more than normal, though nowhere near Lerasium Mistborn level.

[cometaryorbit]

On 3/15/2018 at 7:10 PM, The One Who Connects said:

We know that "Not all Inquisitors had the same spikes" so some will have F-Gold like Kar did, others will have A-Duralumin, etc.. They didn't even all have Atium. With Tin potentially out of the picture, and several spikes being non-standard, I think it's entirely possible for them to manage 9 spikes.

Yeah, Inquisitors are not standardized. 9 is normal, but Marsh had 11. A-Duralumin is rare, so it's probably only found on those with more than 9.

Do Inquisitors have any use for A-Copper? I mean they can't exactly pretend to be non Allomancers because of the giant spikes sticking out of their faces...

6 Allomantic basic metals (excluding Tin and Copper), Feruchemical Gold, Allomantic Atium... leaves room for one doubled-up power (Bronze if they had to settle for a non-Seeker Misting, otherwise probably a combat power like Pewter or Steel). And since not all had the Atium or Feruchemical gold spike, those might have had an extra doubled power (probably a fighting power).

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And Vin's base (pre-spike) strength is more than normal, though nowhere near Lerasium Mistborn level.

Where do we know this from? That sounds right, but I'm struggling to remember why...

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Do Inquisitors have any use for A-Copper? I mean they can't exactly pretend to be non Allomancers because of the giant spikes sticking out of their faces...

Resistance to Emotional Allomancy. Though, would TLR have allowed them that? Resistance to getting taken over by others is resistance to being taken over by him too.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

6 Allomantic basic metals (excluding Tin and Copper)

Koloss control works just as well with Soothing as it does Rioting, and who would they even be Rioting in most situations? Some of them might have double Brass and no Zinc(stronger soothing could work for controlling Koloss, perhaps.) It'd still be 6 spikes for the base powers, so it's not that much of a big deal, but it's something I just thought of.