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Theory on the Sovereign's appearance (BoM Spoilers)


Faceless Mist-Wraith

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So at the end of BoM Wax taps the coppermind given to him, and he sees a memory of Kelsier telling the Southern Scadrians to "survive". It was a big reveal where we see Kelsier is back, and he somehow has a physical form again. Not only that but since Wax saw a scarred arm in the memory, it looks like he has a body similar to/or identical to his old one.

Which seems a bit weird, since his body has long since decomposed and the most that could be left of it are the bones if TenSoon kept them. Either way, it's unlikely (at least in my opinion) that hemalurgy could be used on his skeleton to give him a physical anchor.

My theory is that Kelsier used Hemalurgy to steal/inhabit another person's body, by somehow spiking them with a him-spike. As for why the body looks the same as Kelsier's old one, it could potentially be an effect similar to Forging. With Forging, a person is able to rewrite their spiritual dna (I believe, I may be remembering this incorrectly), and it can often result in a physical change. So maybe the spike somehow acts as a sort of "soul-spike" Forging a person into Kelsier.

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11 hours ago, Belzedar said:

He might also be like the Returned, unconsciously reshaping his body to match his self-image. Apparently cognitive shadows can do that. It might be a similar principle to forging, though.

Or, when he inhabited his new Fullborn body he tapped Gold. Because he still viewed himself as, well himself, he healed to look like that

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2 hours ago, King Cole said:

Or, when he inhabited his new Fullborn body he tapped Gold. Because he still viewed himself as, well himself, he healed to look like that

Yeah, it's plausible that Feruchemical gold could work like that.

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3 hours ago, King Cole said:

Or, when he inhabited his new Fullborn body he tapped Gold. Because he still viewed himself as, well himself, he healed to look like that

I hadn't considered that. That might actually be pretty plausible. Fits better with the what we know the metallic arts can do.

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I would point to one other example of cognitive shadows that somehow manifest their old body when they return, and that would be a Herald. Cosmerically it seems to be possible, and may be similar to being a returned, although I think a returned’s divine breath infused shadow is sort of stapled to their old body so I don’t think it’s exactly the same.

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1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I hadn't considered that. That might actually be pretty plausible. Fits better with the what we know the metallic arts can do.

 

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, it's plausible that Feruchemical gold could work like that.

I’ve kinda assumed thats what he did. Especially since he still has the scars. Exactly like how Kaladin views the slave brand as part of him, Kelsier probably views the scars as a big part of him

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I don't think F-gold, or healing in general would be necessary. 

However he managed it, and while I think it involves a spike I don't think a spike can contain the entirety of a person, I think that the body would be forced to look like Kelsier again. 

When a Koloss is created, it's physical appearance and build are made by changing its Spiritual Aspect. So if you have a body, and you place the full Cognitive and Spiritual aspects of a person into that body, I think it will be forced to conform to the shape of that person. 

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I still believe Kel didn't steal someone body but just fixed his connection to the physical with Hemalurgy and then he just Jump into a Perp to transition in Blood and flesh... But at this point mine is Just speculation (as my idea of him not be' a Fullborn)

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5 minutes ago, Yata said:

I still believe Kel didn't steal someone body but just fixed his connection to the physical with Hemalurgy and then he just Jump into a Perp to transition in Blood and flesh... But at this point mine is Just speculation (as my idea of him not be' a Fullborn)

My idea is basically the same Yata. 

Edit: lmao, I should have looked before linking as your one if the first responses telling me how you had the same idea. XD

Edited by Calderis
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Interesting theory. It makes logical sense with respect to the Realms. I figured my idea might be far fetched, I just found the possible link to Forgery interesting.

As a sidenote, if my theory does work I would guess that the body in question might be Spook's. In Secret History, Kelsier mentions that Spook has an especially strong connection to him, and when I was looking through the WOB's in the Arcanum, Brandon has been somewhat coy about whether Spook is still alive.

I'm probably reading too much into it or jumping to conclusions, but I figured it might be interesting.

Edited by Faceless Mist-Wraith
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8 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Interesting theory. It makes logical sense with respect to the Realms. I figured my idea might be far fetched, I just found the possible link to Forgery interesting.

As a sidenote, if my theory does work I would guess that the body in question might be Spook's. In Secret History, Kelsier mentions that Spook has an especially strong connection to him, and when I was looking through the WOB's in the Arcanum, Brandon has been somewhat coy about whether Spook is still alive.

I'm probably reading too much into it or jumping to conclusions, but I figured it might be interesting.

Can't be Spook.  Spook was the Lord Mistborn for something close to a century, and Kelsier was on the S continent about 12 years after the Catacendre.

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Wow... this is amazing (meaning ... well, just amazing how much depth this goes into, other people who actually care about the magic systems and stuff. I'm used to only my brother and myself having even read any of the books)

Well... as has been stated, he is a cognitive shadow. I unfortunately do not know much about cognitive shadows, but I believe that he never actually touches anything that we can tell, so it is possible that he filled the bracers and made the memory simply from a state of a cognitive shadow manifest in the real world. ... and I just remembered that he did medallions and all that. um... yeah, I would say the returned theory is part of the answer with a possibility of gold feruchemy being the rest (inhabited bones, then used ... probably the BoM to regrow the flesh as was stated previously into what... hm... would it be his soul, or is there a seperate soul for the physical body? it obviously carries over to cognitive shadows... not sure. anyway, yeah, inhabit bones then regrow with gold.)

I really need to read secret history or whatever it is with cognitive shadows... still awed and happy that there are others even more into this than I am.

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On 3/15/2018 at 10:32 AM, Strifelover said:

It's interesting that we don't get a full description of his features, but we do get confirmation on his most prominent one, that of the scarred arms. This reminds me a lot of (Oathbringer Spoilers):

  Hide contents

Oathbringer spoilers removed per OB Spoiler Policy.

 

We know Kelsier retained his original features though, because he still looks like Marsh. 

Quote

Questioner

The Sovereign...

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm.

Questioner

...has a <nail> in his eye. Which eye is *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

I am going to RAFO that one. Just in case.

Questioner

Has Bloody Tan seen the Sovereign?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs* So... here's the thing-- and this is why I'm RAFO-ing these, it's not because of what you think. I'm RAFO-ing these because these the nature of the Sovereign, and who they call the Sovereign, and these sorts of things is stuff that I want to potentially leave for Secret History 2-- or for [Secret History3, if I write more Secret Histories. So the answers are probably simple, right? And they're not ones that are gonna be mind blowing. But I don't want to lock myself down until I've written those, which is why I'm RAFO-ing most of the questions dealing with this, okay?

*a moment later Brandon overhears continued conversation about Secret History*

So, oh, you were asking it that specific way to not give spoilers to someone here? Yeah, I see what you're doing. I see-- I thought you were trying to wiggle out of me something that you weren't trying to wiggle out of me.

Questioner

Not everyone here has read...

Brandon Sanderson

I get it, I get it. I see what's going on.

Questioner

We're not trying to be that *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, okay. I was misinterpreting the intent of those questions a little bit. Yes, being very tricky. Okay. 

*pauses to sign a book*

So the answer of which spike is it? I can answer that one? *interruption* Or really I can tell you--it's in my notes, and I don't have them, but it's not particularly relevant--it's the opposite side of the one where Death's skull was crushed. 

Questioner

Oh, yes. Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

They would look like mirror images if you saw them.

source

 

Edited by Pagerunner
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53 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We know Kelsier retained his original features though, because he still looks like Marsh. 

 

Maaaaaybe, but I'm not sure that WOB definitely confirms that Kelsier retains his features such that he still looks like Marsh. Unless I'm misunderstanding something there (seems like BS was a bit confused at first too), they're asking about which eye is spiked. I actually had to reread that WOB a few times to see what you were getting at, since I just read it as they're spiked in the opposite eye so it mirrors each other.

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think that we know he's retained his Kelsier features from that WOB.

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Mirror image? But Marsh has both of his eye spikes at the end of The Alloy of Law.

Is that a hint that whenever it is that Kelsier regains physical form as The Sovereign, some time within 10-12 years of the Catacendre, Marsh still has only the one eye spike? Is the fact that it'd be an opposite socket relevant, or a coincidence?

EDIT: Brandon himself says "it's not particularly relevant", but still, it seems to suggest that Marsh did not immediately replace his missing eye spike. Not sure how that goes, too, if he has to find his original eye spike, or can just use any leftover Inquisitor eye spike, given that using a hemalurgic spike seems to "imprint".

Edited by robardin
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8 hours ago, Strifelover said:

Maaaaaybe, but I'm not sure that WOB definitely confirms that Kelsier retains his features such that he still looks like Marsh. Unless I'm misunderstanding something there (seems like BS was a bit confused at first too), they're asking about which eye is spiked. I actually had to reread that WOB a few times to see what you were getting at, since I just read it as they're spiked in the opposite eye so it mirrors each other.

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think that we know he's retained his Kelsier features from that WOB.

Yeah I got the same as you. Not that he looks like Marsh but that the spiked sockets mirror each other.

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On 3/15/2018 at 10:32 AM, Strifelover said:

It's interesting that we don't get a full description of his features, but we do get confirmation on his most prominent one, that of the scarred arms. This reminds me a lot of (Oathbringer Spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

Oathbringer spoilers removed per OB Spoiler Policy.

 

So a few things from that here are my theory's

Oathbringer spoilers removed per OB Spoiler Policy.

What we know a little bit about hemalergy it creates a tear in your soul, stamping a new piece to the host.

What we also know about soul tears is that people have them naturally , crazy people.

Tears also seem to be affected by allomancy at least we know spiked individuals are . Too many and you can be controlled or talked too .

On 3/15/2018 at 0:46 PM, robardin said:

Mirror image? But Marsh has both of his eye spikes at the end of The Alloy of Law.

Is that a hint that whenever it is that Kelsier regains physical form as The Sovereign, some time within 10-12 years of the Catacendre, Marsh still has only the one eye spike? Is the fact that it'd be an opposite socket relevant, or a coincidence?

EDIT: Brandon himself says "it's not particularly relevant", but still, it seems to suggest that Marsh did not immediately replace his missing eye spike. Not sure how that goes, too, if he has to find his original eye spike, or can just use any leftover Inquisitor eye spike, given that using a hemalurgic spike seems to "imprint".

So senario 1 I propose is

Kel convinces Marsh to let him take controller of him too help the people in the South or maybe for other kel reasons .

Marsh maybe agrees, for the idea of him returning being related to the fused  he'd have to be willing . that's not likely as we know how Marsh feels about being controlled . But we're dealing with hemalergy and realmantics we don't comprehend, also Kel is Kel , he'll get his way . He hacks the magic anyway to controller Marsh to spiske himself with a kel spike or Kell gets his  Lord Mistborn friend to get Marsh to spike himself  with a kel spike . Or maybe he just slips right into Marsh because of all those tears in Marsh's soul .

 

His scars return as they are an aspect of himself his identity. He looks like himself because Marsh and him looked the same.

  Maybe  Kel spike maybe is harmonium or atium  . 

Edited by Pagerunner
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3 hours ago, coppercloud said:

Kel convinces Marsh to let him take controller of him too help the people in the South or maybe for other kel reasons .

But doesn't that WOB say that the Sovereign and Marsh have just the one spike in opposite eyes? I'm guessing you're saying that the second eye spike that Marsh gains is the one that Kelsier had 'convinced him' to use on himself in order for Kel to take over his body. But the Sovereign we see (and from whose perspective we see) has just the one eye spike. So unless Marsh spiked himself so Kel could take over, and Kel then removed Marsh's original eye spike, this seems pretty unlikely.

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We also see Marsh himself walking around in AoL.  And he has to have been around before that, because of the whole Iron Eyes Sliverism religion.

And yeah, Marsh and Kelsier have opposite eyes spiked.  Their spikes are mirrored, not their features.

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Yeah, maybe I am reading to much into it. My brain went straight to the fact that Marsh has two spikes and considered the features. 

I've done this before. Marsh had one of the spikes ripped out and later replaced it, so Kel's spike must be the side that was ripped out. 

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