[OB] My Issue With Kaladin

[DeployParachute]

It's been pointed out to me that perhaps I misunderstood the initial purpose of the thread, so let me try again:

Yeah, I totally get what you mean, it is super frustrating to me as a reader sometimes when characters have key information that they are sitting on that is very plot relevant and perhaps others need to know about in order to make informed decisions. Like, when Adolin killed Sadeas, and then decided to cover it up and not tell anyone. Just imagine how much damage and lives could have been saved it he had confessed early on to his crime, and not fed the rage that the Sadeas army needed for Odium to control them during the battle of Thaylen City. Super frustrating, but it seems like it worked out in the end.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Is it my imagination or has the 17th Shard become meaner in recent months? It used to be one of the nicest places in the web.

I don't think it's your imagination. 

[Andy92]

On a realistic note, I think what the OP is saying does have some merit to it, with one exception that I'll get to shortly. Kaladin does hold a lot back inside. He's not very good with talking to others about what he's dealing with. There are definitely come communication issues going on in his life that make his character frustrating to read about at times. 

I think he's super cautious about opening up to people after what happened to him in Amaram's army. It can't be easy to trust people after you've been betrayed the way he was. Yes, yes, Dalinar traded his own Shardblade for Kaladin's freedom, but that still doesn't mean all of Kaladin's trust issues should have disappeared instantly. 

I think the OP makes some good points, but the one exception I would bring up is the scene at Kholinar. Kaladin's mission in Kholinar was to be a spy, not superman. They knew something was wrong with the city, and they didn't know who was currently occupying it. If he walked around telling everyone he was a Radiant, someone would have ratted him out to The Fused. 

[maxal]

I think one of the problems with Kaladin "not talking" isn't so much the fact it is realistic for his character to behave this way, but perhaps the fact it is an over-used narrative ploy within work of fantasy? How many story arcs exists just because the author got all the characters not to talk to each other on purpose? I am not just talking about SA, but about fantasy books in general.

[Andy92]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I think one of the problems with Kaladin "not talking" isn't so much the fact it is realistic for his character to behave this way, but perhaps the fact it is an over-used narrative ploy within work of fantasy? How many story arcs exists just because the author got all the characters not to talk to each other on purpose? I am not just talking about SA, but about fantasy books in general.

Yeah the Wheel of Time comes to mind with this one. I haven't finished that series but a lot of the dialog comes back to "I don't trust the bloody Aes Sedai!" lol 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

Yeah the Wheel of Time comes to mind with this one. I haven't finished that series but a lot of the dialog comes back to "I don't trust the bloody Aes Sedai!" lol 

Yes, I agree about WoT. I came to know Brandon Sanderson through his work within WoT. I really enjoyed the books he wrote for the series, so I proceeded to read his "other work". When I read WoK, I was amazed and flabbergasted at how fast the pace was going  I expected Kaladin to be a slave to drag on for books 

So yeah, I do think too many authors used the ploy, hence it can be unnerving for some when it happens with Kaladin even if, compared to other books, I do think he did talk fast 

[Steeldancer]

The thing is- keeping things bottled up is totally realistic. I know sometimes I can keep things bottled up, especially because after my trust has been broken a couple times, its hard for me to invest my trust and talk again. The only person Kaladin can really talk to is Syl, because he doesn't trust. I think it makes sense characterwise, given his experiences of being broken over and over. I never have felt like it was a ploy for the plot, but that it felt totally self consistent, especially as I can personally relate to that kind of shying back from interactions and trust. 

[RShara]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

The thing is- keeping things bottled up is totally realistic. I know sometimes I can keep things bottled up, especially because after my trust has been broken a couple times, its hard for me to invest my trust and talk again. The only person Kaladin can really talk to is Syl, because he doesn't trust. I think it makes sense characterwise, given his experiences of being broken over and over. I never have felt like it was a ploy for the plot, but that it felt totally self consistent, especially as I can personally relate to that kind of shying back from interactions and trust. 

You're right that it's realistic.  But it can also be a bit annoying for readers, too

[Steeldancer]

And I would probably be annoyed if he wasn't like this. It wouldn't make sense characterwise for him to just tell everything. So I can understand it being annoying, but people are annoying. Makes him feel more real, instead of convenient. 

[RShara]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

And I would probably be annoyed if he wasn't like this. It wouldn't make sense characterwise for him to just tell everything. So I can understand it being annoying, but people are annoying. Makes him feel more real, instead of convenient. 

Yep.  Lots of different opinions.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:08 PM, RShara said:

As I said, I can sympathize with him while wanting to whack him upside the head   Yes, I've felt the way he does.  I just also still want to whack him one.

I dunno, I feel absolutely zero inclination to want to smack Kaladin.  Nor would I want to yell at him, nor do I feel frustrated towards him as a character.  When he fails at something I mostly just feel really sad for him, because he seems like an incredibly caring and generous person that the world has crem'd all over.  If anything the scenes that others describe as "frustrating", make me just want to give Kaladin a hug and tell him he's appreciated/loved/forgiven for doing his best to help others in a world that has treated him like garbage.  If I were in his shoes and had experienced half the loss and suffering that he has I doubt I would be anywhere near as caring and functional as he is.

Which of course isn't to imply that the way I read SA is the "correct" one.  I like Stormlight Archive primarily because I love the characters and find it extremely easy to empathize with them as broken people who keep heroically struggling to help the world despite their inner scars.  That's not the only reason to enjoy a story though!  One of my favorite movies is "Back to the Future", and I never realized until I watched a documentary recently that Marty McFly is a completely flat character who experiences no real arc, and doesn't significantly grow as a person at all in the movie.  I still love that movie and that character though.  Sometimes you can enjoy a story just as a passive spectacle, rather than getting too tied up into the character growth and empathy angle.

I guess it mostly boils down to what you want from a story.  When Kaladin "messes up" the Kholin's plans for defeating Sadeas, I wasn't frustrated in the slightest.  In fact I loved the hell out of that plot.  It was a great source of inter-protagonist conflict that felt earned and consistent with individual character motivations, rather than a contrived source of cheap conflict.  Because the reason I'm really reading this is be along for the character's struggles and inner growth, not just to see the bad guys get defeated.  Temporary setbacks are what makes the journey a journey!

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I dunno, I feel absolutely zero inclination to want to smack Kaladin.  Nor would I want to yell at him, nor do I feel frustrated towards him as a character.  When he fails at something I mostly just feel really sad for him, because he seems like an incredibly caring and generous person that the world has crem'd all over.  If anything the scenes that others describe as "frustrating", make me just want to give Kaladin a hug and tell him he's appreciated/loved/forgiven for doing his best to help others in a world that has treated him like garbage.  If I were in his shoes and had experienced half the loss and suffering that he has I doubt I would be anywhere near as caring and functional as he is.

Which of course isn't to imply that the way I read SA is the "correct" one.  I like Stormlight Archive primarily because I love the characters and find it extremely easy to empathize with them as broken people who keep heroically struggling to help the world despite their inner scars.  That's not the only reason to enjoy a story though!  One of my favorite movies is "Back to the Future", and I never realized until I watched a documentary recently that Marty McFly is a completely flat character who experiences no real arc, and doesn't significantly grow as a person at all in the movie.  I still love that movie and that character though.  Sometimes you can enjoy a story just as a passive spectacle, rather than getting too tied up into the character growth and empathy angle.

I guess it mostly boils down to what you want from a story.  When Kaladin "messes up" the Kholin's plans for defeating Sadeas, I wasn't frustrated in the slightest.  In fact I loved the hell out of that plot.  It was a great source of inter-protagonist conflict that felt earned and consistent with individual character motivations, rather than a contrived source of cheap conflict.  Because the reason I'm really reading this is be along for the character's struggles and inner growth, not just to see the bad guys get defeated.  Temporary setbacks are what makes the journey a journey!

Which is fine.  Everyone experiences things differently

[Govir]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:32 PM, maxal said:

I have another one for you... How much can we bet Kaladin infiltrating the guards and winning Azure's confidence would have been completely pointless had Adolin and/or Elhokar just showed themselves? The whole "trying to find an army to attack the Palace" is, IMHO, one of the weakest point within the narrative as it was a false struggle. Have Adolin walk into the guards rooms and meet with Azure: end of problem. Have use a disguise to approach them, if need be, then have him remove it in privacy. Everyone would have rallied to him or even to Elhokar for that matters. Kaladin was absolutely not needed for this to happen.

The whole Kholinar arc was badly framed and not just because Kaladin didn't talk. It was badly framed because the whole time they were trying to find support, they had Adolin/Elhokar to get it for them without any effort.

Adolin and Elhokar were trying to get support in the city, but they were trying to get support from the Lighteyes. They were literally doing what you said, using illusions mainly, but revealing themselves when the Lighteyes could be trusted. Kaladin's "plan" to infiltrate the guard was a gut reaction that wasn't actually part of the plan. That is to say, Adolin and Elhokar had their hands full; Kaladin's share just turned out to be way bigger than anything the Lighteyes could muster.

I also seem to remember Azure not being readily available to chat. I think she made an appearance the first day Kaladin was in the guard (i.e. when he was visiting), and then the next time we saw her was at the dinner when Kaladin approached her.

[Starla]

One of my biggest hair-pulling moments in part 3 of WOR was when Kaladin told Syl he was ready to tell Dalinar he was a Radiant. Then in walks Dalinar to announce Amaram, complete with ugly yellow superhero cloak, as the new leader of the Knights Radiant. This happens after Kaladin has told Dalinar that Amaram killed his squad and made him a slave. He hasn't heard anything back from Dalinar about his investigation into this claim, so Kaladin must assume that Dalinar doesn't believe or trust him. It makes sense that Kaladin would close up at this point, and my heart sank knowing things would probably go downhill from here. So much for the instant gratification I was longing for. Of course, it made the payoff at the end of the book all the sweeter.

As for Kholinar, I agree with others who say they were on a stealth mission, and Kaladin and Shallan can't storm in and proclaim themselves savior of the city. The place is surrounded by Fused who can fly, who are hunting anyone who uses stormlight. Shallan isn't much of a fighter and Kaladin can't take them all by himself. They would have undermined the mission had they revealed themselves.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Govir said:

Adolin and Elhokar were trying to get support in the city, but they were trying to get support from the Lighteyes. They were literally doing what you said, using illusions mainly, but revealing themselves when the Lighteyes could be trusted. Kaladin's "plan" to infiltrate the guard was a gut reaction that wasn't actually part of the plan. That is to say, Adolin and Elhokar had their hands full; Kaladin's share just turned out to be way bigger than anything the Lighteyes could muster.

I also seem to remember Azure not being readily available to chat. I think she made an appearance the first day Kaladin was in the guard (i.e. when he was visiting), and then the next time we saw her was at the dinner when Kaladin approached her.

Actually, Adolin was doing nothing all day but strolling around within his disguise... What he and Elhokar were doing was one of the weak point of the arc mostly because Brandon didn't see fit to write it down. Adolin came to look over the guards a few times... He could have ended Kaladin's infiltration and attack the palace sooner which might have gotten them a better outcome. 

12 minutes ago, Starla said:

As for Kholinar, I agree with others who say they were on a stealth mission, and Kaladin and Shallan can't storm in and proclaim themselves savior of the city. The place is surrounded by Fused who can fly, who are hunting anyone who uses stormlight. Shallan isn't much of a fighter and Kaladin can't take them all by himself. They would have undermined the mission had they revealed themselves.

The revealed themselves anyway to attack the palace: it could have happened much faster had they used their resources effectively. Also, having Kaladin and Shallan do all the work, when they know nothing of the city, just never made any sense. For my part, how Brandon didn't play out Adolin/Elhokar in Kholinar remains one of the greatest weakness of this entire arc. Adolin also blindly trusting Shallan to do "her spying" was just plain painful to read: she's a 17 years old teenager who's never been into Kholinar and who's never been on an spying mission, where does all the "Shallan will save us" even come from?

I had issues with those elements within the narrative.

[Govir]

On 3/12/2018 at 6:05 PM, maxal said:

Actually, Adolin was doing nothing all day but strolling around within his disguise...

That's not how I remember it at all, but I'll keep an eye out during my next read through.

On 3/12/2018 at 6:05 PM, maxal said:

where does all the "Shallan will save us" even come from?

It comes from her being a Knight Radiant. Adolin seems to have the impression that Knight Radiants just *are*, like they don't need training. I also think it comes down to the fact that Adolin and Elhokar both *did* have stuff they were doing (but wasn't shown in as much detail), and so they couldn't babysit all the time.

[Bigmikey357]

On 3/9/2018 at 4:32 PM, maxal said:

I have another one for you... How much can we bet Kaladin infiltrating the guards and winning Azure's confidence would have been completely pointless had Adolin and/or Elhokar just showed themselves? The whole "trying to find an army to attack the Palace" is, IMHO, one of the weakest point within the narrative as it was a false struggle. Have Adolin walk into the guards rooms and meet with Azure: end of problem. Have use a disguise to approach them, if need be, then have him remove it in privacy. Everyone would have rallied to him or even to Elhokar for that matters. Kaladin was absolutely not needed for this to happen.

The whole Kholinar arc was badly framed and not just because Kaladin didn't talk. It was badly framed because the whole time they were trying to find support, they had Adolin/Elhokar to get it for them without any effort.

I feel I must point out that at the time of the Kholinar infiltration they had no idea who Azure was, whether or not she was trustworthy or working for besieging forces or anything. When they get there, they don't even know she is a she. Putting your King or Highprince in a situation where they can be killed or captured by an unknown entity doesn't seem like a sound strategy to me. Kal is a bodyguard. Going in to sus out the situation with the wall guard is the most logical move to make in that particular situation. 

Also, if the Radients revealed themselves there is no guarantee that the population would have risen up with them. Aside from the mixed reputation of Radients across Roshar, there's also the fact that there are only 2 of them against an army of Voidbringers dropping down on top of their heads. Half the population of Alethi cannot read but they all can certainly count. 

Other instances of Kaladin keeping his powers secret were frustrating yet narratively consistent.