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Long Game 43: Under the Banner of Adonalsium


Seonid

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Ok so we know that there are 22 players. 2 of us are "elim" leader roles right now. The square root rule for 22 people is 4.69 so around 5 elims probably but since we have two elim teams, that are versing each other, I am not sure how the square root rule works with multiple teams. I think that it could be safe to assume though that Khriss and Hoid can convert at least 2 people and at most... 4 probably, that would be pretty tough for 17th shard to win but since it is an action to convert maybe it would still be balanced.

If Hoid and Khriss can only convert 2 I imagine they might wait one or two cycles before gaining their first follower, if it is more though I imagine the assumption may be correct that they will convert this cycle. I was sort of hoping calculating this might lead to some more useful information but I can't think of anything else to learn from this besides that we will have to recheck our reads on people constantly and safe PM's could turn unsafe with a cycle change so maybe don't advertise if you have PM's as they might target you for them.

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There appear to be 2 main schools of thought here. One idea is to reveal who is taking what Investiture, so that none of the Shards leave containment. That keeps us closer to our win condition, but it has downsides. It lets the Elims track what power is going where, which makes converting powerful roles much easier for them. On the other hand, we could not reveal what we're taking from, and let the Shards escape. That advances the Elims sudden death condition, but that gets us powerful roles for the village. It's risky as hell, since the Shards can start getting their own Win Conditions if we're not careful.

In my opinion, we should try to balance this out. Don't reveal what power you are taking, as that will likely lead to highly profitable conversions. However, try to go for some Shards that aren't as likely to be claimed by other people. That way we can keep the Shards contained, and not have to deal with a bunch of differing win conditions.

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2 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Hoid and Khriss can apparently only target people on the same world as them, so they might move off Silverlight to Taladian.  Do you guys wish to start a planetary role-call?

I don't follow, why would they go to Taladian? Aren't we all on Silverlight to start with?

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8 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Yeah, but on later turns, some of us might have moved.

Ah ok gotcha sorry I was just rereading the rules and found why you said that they might go to Taldain

Quote

Taldain - A player on Taldain does not gain any special ability, but their actions may affect any player, regardless of the world they are on.

which makes sense now. My only concern with starting a planetary role call is that it would make it so that Hoid and khriss don't even need to go to taldain, they could just follow the people they want to target, or that they volunteer to go to taldain to "Watch for others"

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True, but all of the people that watched for others would be slightly suspicious. 

READS: Slight elim read on mage, for wanting to reveal survival.  If he was an elim, he might want to know who survival is so he could get there shard for his win con.

Slight village read on drought, for inverse of above.

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2 minutes ago, randuir said:

@Seonid, what happens if someone targets someone on a different world with an investiture based action that can't target someone on another world? Does the action simply fail to go through, or is the investiture lost?

Well - the investiture is always consumed, whether you take an action or not. So if your action fails because you targeted someone on another world, the investiture is still gone.

Note: you do not use investiture to power actions. You burn investiture to gain abilities (either passive ones or new actions) for the cycle. At the end of the cycle, regardless of any other factors, all the investiture you burned goes away.

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Survival was once again wandering the Cosmere. Elereod shook his head wearily. How was he going to destroy the Shards if they kept escaping containment? Survival was perhaps the least of the Shards, and the least offensive. Elereod fingered the aluminum spike protruding from his heart, the spike that kept him alive long after the disease should have killed him. Yes, Elereod could empathize with the desire to keep on living. Yet Survival was a Shard like all the others, the epitome of an ordinary being granted far more power than they had any right to possess. Empathy would not prevent Elereod from completing his mission. These fragments of Adonalsium would be destroyed, their power rendered broken and useless.
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51 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Remember, as well, that Survival will work with the village.

There's no guarantee that Survival will work with the village. In fact, since the village's current goal is to put Survival back into containment, it's likely that if Survival already has a new win condition, they won't want to work with the village.

@Seonid, if Survival's vessel is following the 17th Shard's win condition, how long would it take them to put Survival back into containment? Would they be able to do it by the end of the Day turn, or would it take them until the end of the next Night turn?

25 minutes ago, Sart said:

On the other hand, we could not reveal what we're taking from, and let the Shards escape. That advances the Elims sudden death condition, but that gets us powerful roles for the village. It's risky as hell, since the Shards can start getting their own Win Conditions if we're not careful.

Releasing the Shards only advances the elims's sudden death conditions if Hoid or Khrissala manages to acquire a Shard. Since we outnumber the elim team by so much, we have 20 chances to get a Shard while they only have 3. While the actual odds won't be this good unless everyone goes for Cultivation or Ambition, the odds still favor us getting the Shards. To prevent Shards from going their own win conditions, we could establish a strategy of Shard passing. Seonid said on page 2 of the signup thread that the overriding Intent timer resets when the Shard passes to a new vessel. So we could have the vessels of Ambition and Cultivation swap Shards every day cycle with very little chance of either losing their original win condition. We could do this with every pair of Shards excluding Survival if we wanted to. If any Shard ended up being Fused or Invested into a Shardworld, we would know exactly who to lynch.

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35 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

True, but all of the people that watched for others would be slightly suspicious. 

READS: Slight elim read on mage, for wanting to reveal survival.  If he was an elim, he might want to know who survival is so he could get there shard for his win con.

Slight village read on drought, for inverse of above.

An Elim read after one post?  Well, I suppose that's nothing new.

But please, give me some credit.  If I were an Elim, my priority would be surviving.  One does not survive by trying to get Survival to reveal cycle one.  I wouldn't be nearly so obvious.

I do still think that Survival would be a good intermediary, but perhaps you're right about the Elims getting the shards.

3 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

So, wait.  A intent-overwhelmed survival will not be able to work with the village OR the sudden-death win cons of the other two factions?  Man, Survival will have to play this game VERY carefully.

There's no reason that they wouldn't be able to work with the village?  Win-cons are not always mutually exclusive. 

Edited by Magestar
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4 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Because we need to get survival back into containment.

9 hours ago, Seonid said:

The 17th Shard win condition has been slightly altered. The new conditions are in the Rules post, and are reproduced here for your convenience:

17th Shard - With the dangerous machinations of the madman who once led you taken care of, you are free to study the power of the shards however you like. And if you keep their power to yourselves, who could blame you? It’s not everyday you get offered a chance at Shardic power. You win the game if all members of the Standard of Harmony and Adonalsium’s Chosen are killed.

 

Sudden Death Win Condition - If Hoid and Khrissala are killed and all 11 Shards are in containment, the 17th Shard wins the game.)

That's not the only way for the village to win.

Edited by Magestar
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Okay, since kills failed by targeting do consume investiture, we probably shouldn't keep an up-to-date world roll-call, as that makes the job of the elims far easier. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use that information after something has happened. If a pretty-much confirmed villager dies it should be possible to narrow down who could have targeted them.

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37 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

It's a a shame I didn't get Survival, as I am Kelsier, the Survivor.

This reads as slightly... too much. I feel almost as if you are Survival. This, combined with this:

2 hours ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Okay.  Also, will someone PM me?  Because I might need further help.  Also, Alvron followed me, so more proof I am him.

And the fact that... 8 out of your 12 posts so far have been explicitly about Survival. (You've had 12, but one of them was just RP, but also talked about survival, so that would be 9 out of 13) I feel almost as if you are trying a bit too hard to distance yourself from Survival.

If you are Survival, then it shouldn't be too big of a problem, as you can't be converted, and you have an extra Shardic Protection life, as well as being able to gain an extra life each day turn. So you should be good if you have Survival, and I've outed you. If you don't have it... then that works well, as well, as the Elims might not convert you for fear of you having Survival, and hit the actual Survival. So, without you claiming (Please don't claim that you have it, at this point, only claim that you don't) we still leave the elims in a state of uncertainty, while giving the village a bit more information.

Maybe this is the wrong call, outing a potential Survival, but, I think that it is pretty good. Feel free to yell at me about it if you disagree.

 

Edit: Due to Pyro's edit, he now sits at 9/12 or 10/13 with RP included for posts about Survival.

Edited by Droughtbringer
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@Droughtbringer I'm pretty confused at first you said that you wouldn't reveal survival

2 hours ago, Droughtbringer said:
2 hours ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

I think there will be more total possible elims than normal, because of the fact that the elims are competing against each other.  Another question is should we ask survival to reveal themselves?

 I'd say no, as:

1. It goes against Survival's potential win con

2. Could help Odium later on

3. Let's Elims know who not to convert 

But then you make a post possibly outing survival in great detail as to why you think they might be

8 minutes ago, Droughtbringer said:
42 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

It's a a shame I didn't get Survival, as I am Kelsier, the Survivor.

This reads as slightly... too much. I feel almost as if you are Survival. This, combined with this:

2 hours ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Okay.  Also, will someone PM me?  Because I might need further help.  Also, Alvron followed me, so more proof I am him.

And the fact that... 8 out of your 12 posts so far have been explicitly about Survival. (You've had 12, but one of them was just RP, but also talked about survival, so that would be 9 out of 13) I feel almost as if you are trying a bit too hard to distance yourself from Survival.

If you are Survival, then it shouldn't be too big of a problem, as you can't be converted, and you have an extra Shardic Protection life, as well as being able to gain an extra life each day turn. So you should be good if you have Survival, and I've outed you. If you don't have it... then that works well, as well, as the Elims might not convert you for fear of you having Survival, and hit the actual Survival. So, without you claiming (Please don't claim that you have it, at this point, only claim that you don't) we still leave the elims in a state of uncertainty, while giving the village a bit more information.

Maybe this is the wrong call, outing a potential Survival, but, I think that it is pretty good. Feel free to yell at me about it if you disagree.

 

Edit: Due to Pyro's edit, he now sits at 9/12 or 10/13 with RP included for posts about Survival.

This seems really inconsistent with me and I can't figure out why you would go from one opinion to another so quick.

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19 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

That was the idea.  It's the Alveron thing all over again!  Aren't mind games fun?

No. They aren't. :P  (I actually love them)

So either you are thinking much further into this than I expected, or you are covering your tracks. Either way, I like it :P


Ralar stood, at the height of his power. It was intense; for a moment he had been the most powerful being in the Cosmere, holding the Shard Feudal. It had contained Two astonishing powers; both Dominion and Endowment, fused together into something more, something amazing.

The fusing of the two had been improper, though. Something about his own essence didn't perfectly mesh with the Two Shards, and the power seemed to pull him apart. The Intent was good, it felt right, but the power behind it did not like him. So, he had called in an old friend, and bestowed the shard of Dominion, the shard he had had for the longest amount of time, to a friend in return for a favour, and the chance to experience Endowment by itself.

He had fun, experimenting with Endowment, in the wake of his victory over the Cosmere, but it was then that Hoid was cast out, sentenced to the far reaches of the Cosmere, and the dream of true Shardic power; not a shatter piece, or a greater ideal/intent than any of the 16, but something more, something Perfect, disappeared.

The Shard of Endowment was forcibly ripped from him, barely leaving him alive, and sending him out into the Cosmere with an idea, and idea of finding the man who had first inspired him, finding the man who had the dream that they both shared; reforging Adonalsium, and bringing him back to power.


Ralar, as a character, was converted by Hoid in LG29, and ended the game with both Dominion and Endowment (and we called the fused shard Feudal). After that, El asked for it from me, and used it for this amazing post (Seriously, go check it out). Due to Ralar's character being loyal to Hoid, I will be RPing him as someone still loyal to Hoid, and still having the dream of reforging Adonalsium, My RP is not indicative of my alignment, merely what I believe my character would due in this scenario


@MonsterMetroid I changed because claiming to be Survival is practically guaranteed that you are Survival, at this point in the game, whereas putting ideas out there for who Survival might be is not nearly as effective for the Elims to figure out who they actually are. Beyond that; me suddenly switching could be seen as an example of my being Survival, which puts more doubt for the elims.

Edited by Droughtbringer
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1 hour ago, Droughtbringer said:

Maybe this is the wrong call, outing a potential Survival, but, I think that it is pretty good. Feel free to yell at me about it if you disagree.

*yells with rage*

In all seriousness though, in my head this points to neither of you having Survival. Eh, either way, I don't think it matters much apart from the likely possibilty that the elims probably won't target Drought or Pyromancer for conversions anymore for fear of one of them having Survival. This doesn't 'clear' you or anything tho

1 hour ago, randuir said:

Okay, since kills failed by targeting do consume investiture, we probably shouldn't keep an up-to-date world roll-call, as that makes the job of the elims far easier. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use that information after something has happened. If a pretty-much confirmed villager dies it should be possible to narrow down who could have targeted them.

I agree. The only possible attackers would be players on their world, and on Taldain, I think.

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