[OB] New Patji/Investiture WoB

[Blightsong]

Brandon just responded to a question on reddit from @Oversleep. One of the best WoBs we have on Investiture and its conceptual ideas; it's essay length and helps to point us in the right direction when it comes to the nuance of the relationship between Autonomy and Patji.

 

Read here.

[RShara]

It figuratively made my brain explode.

[Blightsong]

So connecting ideas from Quantum Mechanics, as he has named that as one of his inspirations for a lot of this and he references spin in the post, Investiture is like an elementary particle with no discernable units/can't be broke down to a "particle" as far as we know that has spin trajectories  (as opposed to a set number) related to the nature/personality (same thing?) of Adonalsium that has now been divided into 16 different entities.

 

Yeah, he wasn't kidding when he said this gets complicated.

 

Anyone with more than a cursory half-understanding of Quantum Mechanics, feel free to correct it me.

 

Edit:

Oh, wow. Just realized something that made a lot of sense.

16 is (in my new theory) an arbitrary number associated with these kinds of different 'spins'. So 16 may be a thing on the micro level of investiture and that's why it's reflected in the macro level of it.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Blightsong

[Leyrann]

5 hours ago, Blightsong said:

So connecting ideas from Quantum Mechanics, as he has named that as one of his inspirations for a lot of this and he references spin in the post, Investiture is like an elementary particle with no discernable units/can't be broke down to a "particle" as far as we know that has spin trajectories  (as opposed to a set number) related to the nature/personality (same thing?) of Adonalsium that has now been divided into 16 different entities.

 

Yeah, he wasn't kidding when he said this gets complicated.

 

Anyone with more than a cursory half-understanding of Quantum Mechanics, feel free to correct it me.

 

Edit:

Oh, wow. Just realized something that made a lot of sense.

16 is (in my new theory) an arbitrary number associated with these kinds of different 'spins'. So 16 may be a thing on the micro level of investiture and that's why it's reflected in the macro level of it.

I doubt it's that 'simple' (except it's not really simple), as Brandon has stated that there could have been different Shards forming in the Shattering. I'll admit, it was the first thing I thought of as well, but we have to remember that there is no law of nature dictating the Shards to be exactly this way and nothing else.

[Isilel]

This part of the new WoB is very interesting, in that it hints at how Autonomy and probably also Odium manage to insert themselves into locations where they want to meddle, but which have already been claimed by other Shards:

Quote

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

It also provides a clue as to why Autonomy would feel especially threatened by

Cosmere Spoilers:

Spoiler

the Scadrian civilization. To the extent that it looks like she wants to destroy all life on that world if she can't control it. Because unlike nearly all other worlds in the Cosmere Scadrial and Scadrians were made by Ruin and Preservation alone, rather than Adonalsium, and as a result the other Shards have no convenient bridgeheads of pre-existing Investiture, which severely curtails their potential influence there.

Also, Scadrians can easily draw on Harmony's investiture wherever they go, unlike anybody else at this point, which might both lead to them dominating the whole Cosmere as soon as they discover world-hopping as a society _and_ also greatly extend Harmony's reach, as he becomes aware of the pieces of his investiture elsewhere with the help of Scadrian explorers.

 

[thatboi.kel]

Quote

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

Semi-off topic, the bolded part reminds me of the comments made by Syl and Stormfather primarily (can't recall, off the top of my head, if Pattern's commented on it to Shallan before) about "always knowing" that x,y,z could be done by their Radiant only after they've completed the action.

[WhiteLeeopard]

So, a rough way of putting it is to say all shards can "claim" pieces of investiture when they find those pieces? Ignoring all the knowing and not knowing. 

So I'm assuming that highstorms and stormlight were present before the Shattering, and Honor was the Shard to claim the Adonalsium investiture in Roshar first, so it became his. 

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

So, a rough way of putting it is to say all shards can "claim" pieces of investiture when they find those pieces? Ignoring all the knowing and not knowing. 

So I'm assuming that highstorms and stormlight were present before the Shattering, and Honor was the Shard to claim the Adonalsium investiture in Roshar first, so it became his. 

I don't think so. The way I understand that, is that all investiture, known of by the Vessels or not, is still delineated along lines that pertain to the nature of the Shards. 

When the Vessel becomes aware of Investiture that is its own, it can then make use of it, but for that to be the case, that investiture already belonged to that shard.

[insert_anagram_here]

To anyone that may understand what all of this means,

1. Is it that all Investiture can be used by any Vessel, or do they need to claim it as their own first?
2. And if they need to claim it first, is it necessary to kill/shatter the Vessel/Shard that currently holds it?

[Draigon]

What seems to be happening with the Shards is that omnipotence and omniscience are being forced through a mortal perspective. The mortal holders of the Shards are changed quite completely by the experience but can't fully access all investiture related to their Shard because while the Shard knows the mortal filter does not. Once the mortal filter is made aware of what it knows or has access to, it can start using and affecting it.

[Blightsong]

36 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

To anyone that may understand what all of this means,

1. Is it that all Investiture can be used by any Vessel, or do they need to claim it as their own first?
2. And if they need to claim it first, is it necessary to kill/shatter the Vessel/Shard that currently holds it?

Both are a bit off the mark. All Shards have separate bodies of Investiture that have been associated with them and this association has existed since the beginning. By killing another Shard and taking up their investiture, or even part of it, their original intent would change and their body of investiture would grow "larger" in some way than its original, (somehow infinite) size as seen with Harmony. 

[+ElephantEarwax]

11 hours ago, RShara said:

It figuratively made my brain explode.

It literally made mine explode.

[MountainKing]

All investiture was assigned to one of the sixteen shards. When their united, all the investiture is assigned to all the shards as once, and the shards don't have mandates. The Odium shard's investiture is assigned and can use to Honor's investiture because when they are united, they share the same connections to their investiture. When the 16 shards were shattered, they weren't connected anymore and could not use the other shards' investiture, and they also gained mandates. The shards' investiture is not dispersed in separate groups, but instead their assigned investiture is more of a homogeneous mixture, touching one another or are close to each other. Shard holders are mortals, they can not all at once see where all their investiture is, but what they can do is look at a place and see if any of their investiture is their. Another shard can manipulate another shard's investiture, but it would be the same as a regular person trying to manipulate investiture that is just laying around.

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, Draigon said:

What seems to be happening with the Shards is that omnipotence and omniscience are being forced through a mortal perspective. The mortal holders of the Shards are changed quite completely by the experience but can't fully access all investiture related to their Shard because while the Shard knows the mortal filter does not. Once the mortal filter is made aware of what it knows or has access to, it can start using and affecting it.

Continuing on this line, it would seem Harmony is a baby Shard, compared to the others. Mentally, and considering what he is aware of, as he was a mortal just 300 years earlier. Which could explain the problems we see on Era 2, despite his been twice as big/strong as the other Shards. This may seem obvious, but since we are told from very early on how "infinite" Shards are it always seemed hard to understand (for me) the problems of Era 2 with corrupted Shard entering under Harmony's nose.

6 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Another shard can manipulate another shard's investiture, but it would be the same as a regular person trying to manipulate investiture that is just laying around.

Maybe that is the red Investiture we keep seeing.

I think I'm just going to ramble for a while about this WoB, if I ever say anything coherent about it.

Edited March 8, 2018 by WhiteLeeopard
Second quote

[Oversleep]

I think I have a theory of Realmatics cooking that would try to explain all that

[WhiteLeeopard]

59 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I think I have a theory of Realmatics cooking that would try to explain all that

Have fun, and nice job getting so much new info!

[Calderis]

@insert_anagram_here the way I understand it there is no "unclaimed" Investiture.

All investiture is assigned to the Shards already, but their finite minds can't process all of it. So a Shard can take control of their own investiture elsewhere if they become aware of it. 

[Steeldancer]

This fits in PERFECTLY with my theory! 

I've been saying things like this all along! I feel quite vindicated. But the spin thing adds a whole new dimension to my understanding of this. Expect an update to my Spirit Realm essay

Edited March 8, 2018 by Steeldancer

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Maybe that is the red Investiture we keep seeing.

I think I'm just going to ramble for a while about this WoB, if I ever say anything coherent about it.

Red Investiture is when Investiture that was already given a purpose is unwillingly forced or unwilling mixed with another shards investiture. Like if Odium corrupts a sapient spren against their will.

[ShardplateJoe III]

So, it would be kind of like having an unkeyed coppermind that had the all of the knowledge of the universe in it. You could tap the information in there, but your finite mind could not hold it all at once, and you would have to review a piece of information before you could use it.

[WhiteLeeopard]

36 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Red Investiture is when Investiture that was already given a purpose is unwillingly forced or unwilling mixed with another shards investiture. Like if Odium corrupts a sapient spren against their will.

Or another way to see it is to say red happens when a Shard meddles in another Shard's Investiture. The meddler Shard can get results but there will be physical signs of the interference.

[Calderis]

Unless things have changed, red is not simply mixed investiture. It is a sign of co-opted investiture. 

Red signifies that something that was designed/came into being for one purpose has been altered to be used by a different shard for something else. 

Black investiture is a sign of "mixed" investiture in its base form. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

source

Quote

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

source

I think the biggest takeaway from the recent WoBs for me personally is that Nightblood could actually be the way he is as a result of mixed investiture, and still have no actual direct involvement from the Shard whose investiture was mixed in. Probably as a result of his command. 

[zorland]

15 hours ago, Blightsong said:

So connecting ideas from Quantum Mechanics, as he has named that as one of his inspirations for a lot of this and he references spin in the post, Investiture is like an elementary particle with no discernable units/can't be broke down to a "particle" as far as we know that has spin trajectories  (as opposed to a set number) related to the nature/personality (same thing?) of Adonalsium that has now been divided into 16 different entities.

 

Yeah, he wasn't kidding when he said this gets complicated.

 

Anyone with more than a cursory half-understanding of Quantum Mechanics, feel free to correct it me.

 

 

Hi.  Particle physics PhD here.  

 

Let me tell you, this WoB is perhaps the most exciting thing I have heard surrounding the Cosmere, and it makes sense.  Based on this new data and, as you have referred to above, Sanderson's predilection for quantum mechanics...I think the shattering of A. is the equivalent to a spontaneous symmetry breaking event in particle physics.  Unfortunately, wikipedia is terrible for trying to understand these concepts so I'll try to go give it a quick shot.  (Warning - I've been out of physics for years).

 

I worked on the Higgs discovery, and so I see the Higgs field as a really excellent analogy for this.

 

In particle physics, all the rules and laws of the universe come from certain large symmetries.  To give a macro-level example, if we consider that the flight path of a ball is the same regardless of where on earth you are throwing it, we have a translational symmetry on the laws of motion.  This symmetry leads directly to the conservation of momentum law.  Cool!

 

In particle physics, the symmetries are usually represented by the mathematical concept: Group or Field.  Then from the mathematical characteristics of the Group/Field, you can determine how many different types particles there will be in existence.  

Symmetries ==>  Distinct types of particles

 

The Higgs Field was a really cool theoretical extension to our understanding of physics (predicted back in the 70's).  The Higgs field was a spontaneous breaking of the at-the-time Standard Model of physics.  The new symmetry predicted new particles (the Higgs), which were confirmed to exists a few years ago.

 

Broken symmetry ==> "new" particles

 

WTF is a spontaneously broken symmetry?  The classic example is the Sombrero (particularly apt because if you graph the Higgs field in 3D it looks like a Sombrero).  If you put a ball on the top of a Sombrero, it has a rotational symmetry.  If the ball falls off the top of the hat into the "brim", the symmetry is broken.  It no longer looks the same from all angles.

 

My current hypothesis is that the Shattering of A. in a narrative sense was equivalent to a spontaneously broken symmetry in the underlying cosmere physics.  It was the ball falling off the top of the hat moment.

 

Now also remember,  Symmetries ==>  Distinct types of particles.  There are multiple Higgs Field theories (it's not just one!) and some of them have different numbers of predicted particles.  The number of particles depends on the symmetry and each particle carries a particular charge number.  As such, it seems completely reasonable to me that each shard is the narrative representation of a fundamental particle resultant from the spontaneous symmetry breaking and that each shard's fundamental number is their investiture charge number.  

 

Not only does this jive with what we have just gotten from Sanderson, but it works backwards as well (sorry I am going to be doing these quotes from memory).  Sanderson has before said to think of investiture as an additional physical "field" that interacts with the fields we know of (EM, Gravity, etc).  Sanderson has also said that different types of investiture/magic (ie the different metals on Scadrial) can be thought of as the same "thing" but at different wavelengths.  

 

This would also work very well with the notion of "all investiture existed before the shattering, it was just assigned (a particular investiture charge number) afterward."  

 

...no mind-blowing conclusions from this.  Just wanted to paint out the physics side of this idea.

[Steeldancer]

11 minutes ago, zorland said:

 

Hi.  Particle physics PhD here.  

 

Let me tell you, this WoB is perhaps the most exciting thing I have heard surrounding the Cosmere, and it makes sense.  Based on this new data and, as you have referred to above, Sanderson's predilection for quantum mechanics...I think the shattering of A. is the equivalent to a spontaneous symmetry breaking event in particle physics.  Unfortunately, wikipedia is terrible for trying to understand these concepts so I'll try to go give it a quick shot.  (Warning - I've been out of physics for years).

 

I worked on the Higgs discovery, and so I see the Higgs field as a really excellent analogy for this.

 

In particle physics, all the rules and laws of the universe come from certain large symmetries.  To give a macro-level example, if we consider that the flight path of a ball is the same regardless of where on earth you are throwing it, we have a translational symmetry on the laws of motion.  This symmetry leads directly to the conservation of momentum law.  Cool!

 

In particle physics, the symmetries are usually represented by the mathematical concept: Group or Field.  Then from the mathematical characteristics of the Group/Field, you can determine how many different types particles there will be in existence.  

Symmetries ==>  Distinct types of particles

 

The Higgs Field was a really cool theoretical extension to our understanding of physics (predicted back in the 70's).  The Higgs field was a spontaneous breaking of the at-the-time Standard Model of physics.  The new symmetry predicted new particles (the Higgs), which were confirmed to exists a few years ago.

 

Broken symmetry ==> "new" particles

 

WTF is a spontaneously broken symmetry?  The classic example is the Sombrero (particularly apt because if you graph the Higgs field in 3D it looks like a Sombrero).  If you put a ball on the top of a Sombrero, it has a rotational symmetry.  If the ball falls off the top of the hat into the "brim", the symmetry is broken.  It no longer looks the same from all angles.

 

My current hypothesis is that the Shattering of A. in a narrative sense was equivalent to a spontaneously broken symmetry in the underlying cosmere physics.  It was the ball falling off the top of the hat moment.

 

Now also remember,  Symmetries ==>  Distinct types of particles.  There are multiple Higgs Field theories (it's not just one!) and some of them have different numbers of predicted particles.  The number of particles depends on the symmetry and each particle carries a particular charge number.  As such, it seems completely reasonable to me that each shard is the narrative representation of a fundamental particle resultant from the spontaneous symmetry breaking and that each shard's fundamental number is their investiture charge number.  

 

Not only does this jive with what we have just gotten from Sanderson, but it works backwards as well (sorry I am going to be doing these quotes from memory).  Sanderson has before said to think of investiture as an additional physical "field" that interacts with the fields we know of (EM, Gravity, etc).  Sanderson has also said that different types of investiture/magic (ie the different metals on Scadrial) can be thought of as the same "thing" but at different wavelengths.  

 

This would also work very well with the notion of "all investiture existed before the shattering, it was just assigned (a particular investiture charge number) afterward."  

 

...no mind-blowing conclusions from this.  Just wanted to paint out the physics side of this idea.

*blinks, trying to bring back the self taught stuff of quantum mechanics*

This actually makes a lot of sense. I had a similar idea, which actually I'm going to go make a post on in a few minutes here. Essentially that each spin matches up to an ideal part of Adonalsiums personality? so much to think about

[Raykoda]

I'm more personal interested in the Patji = Autonomy stuff he just causally threw out there....