[OB]What's up with the Nightwatcher? [spoilers]

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

I was just reading about the Unmade and it occurred to me that the Nightwatcher is a very odd spren. Not unlike the Unmade. Then I remembered a quote from Hessi's Mythica, which says that there were rumored to be ten unmade. But maybe there were ten made, but only nine of them were unmade. Now obviously there are some holes, but give me a chance to give the evidence supporting this theory. Obviously, watch out for spoilers. For one thing, Sja-anat says to Shallan in the oathgate room at Kholinar that the Unmade were "made, then we were unmade." It is implied that Odium made and unmade them. But wouldn't it make more sense that they were first made to combat Odium, then Odium 'unmade' them and used them for his own purposes? What if Honor made five of these spren, and Cultivation made the other five, including the Nightwatcher. It makes some sense; everything in these books seems to come in tens. Ten Heralds, ten orders, ten Silver Kingdoms, ten surges, even ten fools! Maybe ten unmade? But Odium couldn't catch the Nightwatcher. Cultivation is protecting her on that little island, perhaps she used her skill in future sight to make sure Odium didn't get ten unmade. Maybe ten is the 'most magically powerful number,' like seven is in Harry Potter.

Now let's talk about the holes. Really there isn't enough information on the Unmade available to prove or disprove this yet, but there are problems. First of all, it's unlikely that Odium doesn't have access to the Nightwatcher. Everyone knows about her, and most know how to get there. If Odium thought she would be at all useful to him, the he would've gone after her. There, he would've discovered Cultivation just waiting to be splintered. Secondly, it's very probable that the Nightwatcher is a sort of 'heir' to Cultivation, much as the Stormfather is to Honor. The Stormfather says that he existed before Honor was defeated, so Cultivation doesn't have to be splintered to make such an intelligent and powerful spren. Indeed, when Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher, Cultivation makes it clear that she created her. (I listen to the audiobooks so I can't give references. sorry.) Maybe the author of Hessi's Mythica was wrong and there really are only nine, or more likely, the tenth unmade is a currently unknown spren.

Tell me what you think. Point out holes I didn't notice, provide evidence I didn't think of. As much as I'd like to be, I'm not the most well-versed in the cosmere books or popular theories.

[Yezrien]

I had the same thought about the Sibling, actually. Since the Nightwatcher is so clearly of Cultivation, and the Stormfather of Honor, I thought maybe the Sibling was some kind of tenth unmade. Maybe there were ten "Made," and the Sibling was the one of them that escaped un-making. (I used to assume these "Made" were the Dawnshards, but I'm not so sure these days.) But if there is a tenth Unmade, I doubt that it's the Nightwatcher.

18 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

 First of all, it's unlikely that Odium doesn't have access to the Nightwatcher. Everyone knows about her, and most know how to get there. If Odium thought she would be at all useful to him, the he would've gone after her. There, he would've discovered Cultivation just waiting to be splintered.

I don't think Cultivation is "just waiting to be splintered." She's not helpless, and she's not hiding:

Quote

Gavin-son-son-Odegard [PENDING REVIEW]

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

source

If anything, I suspect Odium will steer clear of the Valley because he's afraid of her. Remember what the Stormfather said:

Quote

  "I could have been destroyed, though. Splintered into a thousand pieces. I live only because the enemy fears exposing himself to a strike from Cultivation. "

 So the last place he'd go is the Valley, where Cultivation seems extra present. The Nightwatcher is weird and creepy, but I think that's just supposed to signal that Cultivation isn't as nice and loving as we might assume. I'm not convinced that Odium has any influence in the Valley.

[RShara]

I hate to be "that person" again, but this needs to be moved into OB Spoilers.  Have you read the Spoiler policy up top? 

For the Unmade, there are 9 (or at least, not 10).

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

source

 

As for what they are

Quote

WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

source

 

And Peter, off the top of his head, doesn't think they were ever "made" so to speak.

Quote

D'dac de Prades

The Unmade were "made" or are Unmade because they have never been made? It would be 2 different words in Spanish. Thank you.

Peter Ahlstrom

That is a good question. I assumed they had never been made but it's possible it is the other.

source

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by RShara

[Overlord Jebus]

Moved to Oathbringer and added tag

[Calderis]

I also have been of the belief in the past that the "Unmade" were powerful spren of Adonalsium that had been corrupted by Odium, much as we've learned that Sja-anat does to normal spren. 

Prior to OB, I believed these spren were the Dawnsingers... But that has obviously not panned out. Also prior to OB I believed that the last of these ten powerful spren was Cusicesh, who had been bonded prior to the Recreance and his daily loop was a breaking similar to a Shardblade. 

I'm still fond of the idea that the Unmade were something else prior, but considering their relationships to both honor and Cultivation, I don't think either the Stormfather or Nightwatcher are of that group, but two spren greater still. 

If the Unmade were corrupted from 10 existing spren, then yes, I still believe that the sibling is the only one of them that remains. In light of Oathbringer though, I lean more heavily to a third "worldspren" on the level of the other two. 

[Roocifer]

I feel that it's highly unlikely that the Nightwatcher is of Odium.

#1 I don't think Cultivation and a splinter of Odium could coexist so closely.

#2 The Nightwatcher is referred to as The Old Magic.

Spoiler

Since Cultivation & Honor were the original Shards on Roshar, and Odium is technically the newcomer, it would make sense that Nightwatcher is of Cultivation or Honor.

 

[RShara]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I also have been of the belief in the past that the "Unmade" were powerful spren of Adonalsium that had been corrupted by Odium, much as we've learned that Sja-anat does to normal spren. 

Prior to OB, I believed these spren were the Dawnsingers... But that has obviously not panned out. Also prior to OB I believed that the last of these ten powerful spren was Cusicesh, who had been bonded prior to the Recreance and his daily loop was a breaking similar to a Shardblade. 

I'm still fond of the idea that the Unmade were something else prior, but considering their relationships to both honor and Cultivation, I don't think either the Stormfather or Nightwatcher are of that group, but two spren greater still. 

If the Unmade were corrupted from 10 existing spren, then yes, I still believe that the sibling is the only one of them that remains. In light of Oathbringer though, I lean more heavily to a third "worldspren" on the level of the other two. 

But Brandon's said the # of Unmade is fixed, and it's not 10.

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, RShara said:

But Brandon's said the # of Unmade is fixed, and it's not 10.

It is fixed. Because 9 were Unmade and that's all there have ever been. I'm speaking of something that they were made from. 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara]

Hmmm okay, sorry?

[MountainKing]

The theory was that the Sibling was supposed to be unmade, but either he was rescued, escaped, Odium didn't want to unmake him, or some other reason, he didn't get unmade and then joined the radiants.

[Sanderson-Savant]

"'the most magically powerful number' like 7 is in harry potter" 

I think you meant to say 7 is the most magically powerful number like it is in The Tales of Alvin Maker

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

On 07/03/2018 at 9:02 PM, Roocifer said:

I don't think Cultivation and a splinter of Odium could coexist so closely.

I wasn't saying the Nightwatcher was created by Odium. Much on the contrary, I said that she was a splinter of Cultivation. I don't have a reference to back this up, but I believe we are told sometime that the Nightwatcher was created by Cultivation.

 

On 07/03/2018 at 0:44 PM, Belzedar said:

I had the same thought about the Sibling, actually. Since the Nightwatcher is so clearly of Cultivation, and the Stormfather of Honor, I thought maybe the Sibling was some kind of tenth unmade. Maybe there were ten "Made," and the Sibling was the one of them that escaped un-making. (I used to assume these "Made" were the Dawnshards, but I'm not so sure these days.) But if there is a tenth Unmade, I doubt that it's the Nightwatcher.

I must say, I'm surprised at how many of my theories have already been proposed.

On 07/03/2018 at 0:44 PM, Belzedar said:

So the last place he'd go is the Valley, where Cultivation seems extra present. The Nightwatcher is weird and creepy, but I think that's just supposed to signal that Cultivation isn't as nice and loving as we might assume. I'm not convinced that Odium has any influence in the Valley.

That is likely. But I think it's more like in Well of Ascension when <spoilers> Straff and Cett are both going to attack Luthadel, but don't for fear of exposing themselves to the other. </spoilers> Also, I don't think Cultivation is capable of being anything other than good. Just as a gardener clips certain branches for the plant's own good, Cultivation should be able to do things (such as take away Dalinar's memories) seen as negative at first, but the outcome is positive overall. 

 

Just highlight the spoilers to see what they say.

[hypatia]

But a gardener is able of extreme violence - he poisons, burns, kills every plant or animal who tries to overpower the ones he cultivates. Even when it's sometimes a loosing battle.

Personally I was a little bit surprised when she told Dalinar "everything must be cultivated". This isn't exactly the way a gardener thinks, but if she tries to, let's say, cultivate the Unmade, can this be the reason for Sja-Anats supposed change.

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by hypatia

[Calderis]

None of the Shards are good or evil. Everything must be cultivated because that is what she is. She's not a gardener, though she's closer to that then a nature God. 

Cultivation embodies all aspects of Cultivation. The manipulation of nature. The planning. The focus on making the things you want flourish and snuff in out the things you don't. 

I've said it multiple other places, but natural growth is not cultivated. A park is cultivated. A garden is cultivated. A plan or knowledge or skill can be cultivated. 

Cultivation will be absolutely ruthless though. Cultivation as a concept is completely about bringing what you wish to fruition and the absolute removal of everything that you don't. 

The idea of Cultivation as a purely positive force is fundamentally flawed 

[Scion of the Mists]

@Narcoleptic Axolotl You can use the "eye" button (between the "code" and "emoticon" buttons) to create a spoiler.  

[Wyndlerunner]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

None of the Shards are good or evil. Everything must be cultivated because that is what she is. She's not a gardener, though she's closer to that then a nature God. 

Cultivation embodies all aspects of Cultivation. The manipulation of nature. The planning. The focus on making the things you want flourish and snuff in out the things you don't. 

I've said it multiple other places, but natural growth is not cultivated. A park is cultivated. A garden is cultivated. A plan or knowledge or skill can be cultivated. 

Cultivation will be absolutely ruthless though. Cultivation as a concept is completely about bringing what you wish to fruition and the absolute removal of everything that you don't. 

The idea of Cultivation as a purely positive force is fundamentally flawed 

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Cultivation is primarily about getting what you want, and doing anything to achieve that. You cut down what you don't want, and favor what you do want. It is incredibly selfish, Cultivation is going after her own desires and what she wants for Roshar.

[teknopathetic]

I really dont think the Unmade are originally of Odium. 

Roshar, and at least the Stormfather, existed BEFORE shards ever came to the system. Likely the 10+ gigaspren were of Adolnaslium, but were befriended by Cultivation and Honour. Then some of the gigaspren turned their back on the Singers and joined Odium and the humans. Somehow the sibling and the Nightwatcher were spared. 

Keep in mind that WoB describe the Old Magic as something “entirely different” from the other magic systems. I think Cultivation is shaping leftover Adonalsium magic the way Honor changed the Stormfather and Autonomy changed Patji. The way Cultivation talks about The Nightwatcher is very similar to how Autonomy talked about her new aspect : “she is young and still learning”. The unmade seem to be learning in a similar way from what we have read about them. 

Why do we have 11 Gigaspen? im not sure. 10 is of Roshar, but does that number belong to the planet or to the shards that reside there? Maybe there are 16, but not all of them are equally viable candidatea to be bonded in the same way. Perhaps Odium took 9 and Cuktivation protected 3? Who can know this early in the story. i dont know. 

We can be pretty sure The Sibling is a sibling to the Unmade, just  based on the name alone. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Calderis]

On 3/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, teknopathetic said:

We can be pretty sure The Sibling is a sibling to the Unmade, just  based on the name alone. 

Or to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, like it's pointed at in the book. 

The sibling is pretty heavily implied to be the third Bondsmith spren. The connection to those two is apparent. A connection to anything other than those two... I'm not convinced. 

[Stormfather-in-Law]

On 3/9/2018 at 1:13 PM, Calderis said:

The idea of Cultivation as a purely positive force is fundamentally flawed 

I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this, but my working assumption is that Odium is beaten in book 5, and that Cultivation ends up being the "my God Beyond, what have we unleashed?" in book 6.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Stormfather-in-Law

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this, but my working assumption is that Odium is beaten in book 5, and that Cultivation ends up being the "my God Beyond, what have we unleashed?" in book 6.

Yeah, I've said before that my biggest fear for the Cosmere is Cultivation taking up Odium. The combination of those two intents... 

[Storms!]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 1:07 PM, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Maybe ten is the 'most magically powerful number,' like seven is in Harry Potter.

Each Shard has its own "magic number." In Mistborn we see 16 pop up all the time (Preservation) and in Stormlight it's 10 for Honor and 9 for Odium (idk Cultivation's). I don't think we understand the full significance of the numbers yet, but we do know that each Shard has its own number

[Magpro]

On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:58 PM, teknopathetic said:

I really dont think the Unmade are originally of Odium. 

Roshar, and at least the Stormfather, existed BEFORE shards ever came to the system. Likely the 10+ gigaspren were of Adolnaslium, but were befriended by Cultivation and Honour. Then some of the gigaspren turned their back on the Singers and joined Odium and the humans. Somehow the sibling and the Nightwatcher were spared. 

Keep in mind that WoB describe the Old Magic as something “entirely different” from the other magic systems. I think Cultivation is shaping leftover Adonalsium magic the way Honor changed the Stormfather and Autonomy changed Patji. The way Cultivation talks about The Nightwatcher is very similar to how Autonomy talked about her new aspect : “she is young and still learning”. The unmade seem to be learning in a similar way from what we have read about them. 

Why do we have 11 Gigaspen? im not sure. 10 is of Roshar, but does that number belong to the planet or to the shards that reside there? Maybe there are 16, but not all of them are equally viable candidatea to be bonded in the same way. Perhaps Odium took 9 and Cuktivation protected 3? Who can know this early in the story. i dont know. 

We can be pretty sure The Sibling is a sibling to the Unmade, just  based on the name alone. 

I personally think there are more than 10 original major splinters (GigaSpren) of Adolnaslium, 9 unmade, Stormfather, Nightwatcher, Sibling make 12.

As Roshar was invested way before Honor or Cultivation came, so 10 may not be original number of the planet, just what Honor and Cultivation influenced once they arrived.There could sitll be more major splinters out ther, which we have not been told about. We got told of the sibling only in relation to Bondsmiths. Others may come forward as other Radiant Orders are discussed.

Edited March 12, 2018 by FahadWajid

[Scion of the Mists]

23 minutes ago, Storms! said:

Each Shard has its own "magic number." In Mistborn we see 16 pop up all the time (Preservation) and in Stormlight it's 10 for Honor and 9 for Odium (idk Cultivation's). I don't think we understand the full significance of the numbers yet, but we do know that each Shard has its own number

Some shards are not associated with a number.  

 

 

Quote

 

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

source

 

 

[Storms!]

5 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Some shards are not associated with a number.  

Interesting WoB, but my point was mostly that 10 isn't an all powerful number throughout the Cosmere. It's only significant because Honor is involved, just like 9 Unmade isn't a coincidence either, since they are splinters of Odium

[Bragtown]

So here is a thought... we know Odium's goal is to splinter the other shards of Adonalsium, and not to outright kill them. So let's say he does that by doing just that, splintering the shard into subshards and then corrupting each individual piece, unmaking them. Perhaps, the 9 unmade are actually beings similar to the Stormfather, only corrupted by Odium.