Dreamstorm

[OB] Syl and Shallan's Spiritual Connection

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Warning: This post discusses romantic relationships, so do not proceed if that it not your thing :)

At Brandon's signing last weekend, we got an interesting WoB where a fan asked about Kaladin's proficiency with the spear... and Brandon ended up taking the conversation around to a Connection (appears to be Cosmere capitalized Connection) between Syl and Shallan.  I am specifically interested in the latter point.  The link for the WoB is here and text below, with the part about Syl and Shallan in bold.  I'll discuss my thoughts after the text.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Why is Kaladin so proficient--like naturally born to wield a spear.  Is that a weapon he likes or is it a destiny for him?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So destiny is a strong term.  I would say he has natural aptitude, but no more so than a normal person who has a natural aptitude for something.  But the way the Spiritual Realm works in the cosmere and the way Connection works, there were certain things that were happening to Kaladin before they happened.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

<Inaudible> Time and space.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's like Syl says in one of the books.  "You didn't know me then, but I knew you then.  Even though we hadn't met yet, I still knew you."  You see some weird Connection things too.  And these are mostly just for fun sort of cosmere connections.  Like when you see Syl take on the look of Shallan standing on the beach.  There's gonna be a connection there.  It's forming, it doesn't exist yet, but all things are one in the Spiritual Realm, and we're just kinda seeing echoes of that. It's not meant to be destiny, it's more meant to be, "Hey there's little connections happening".

I would not say Kaladin is any more naturally gifted in that than your average professional sports player is naturally gifted in what they do.

The scene Brandon is mentioning is in WoR, text copied below, and I personally had no idea this was supposed to be Shallan.  At the very least, this is a specific reveal that Syl "knew" Shallan, in a similar way to the fact she "knew" Kaladin prior to actually meeting her.  (With hopefully a different outcome though!  Don't know how I'd feel about Syl bonding Shallan... :P)

Quote

The pool in front of him glowed a deep violet. He’d noticed it earlier, but in the light of his sphere it had been harder to see. Now, in the dimness, the pool could reveal its eerie radiance.

Syl landed on the side of the pool, looking like a woman standing on an ocean’s shore. Kaladin frowned, leaning down to inspect her more closely. She seemed . . . different. Had her face changed shape?

“There are others like you,” Syl whispered. “I do not know them, but I know that other spren are trying, in their own way, to reclaim what was lost.” She looked to him, and her face now had its familiar form. The fleeting change had been so subtle, Kaladin wasn’t sure if he’d imagined it. 

WoR, Ch. 9, Walking The Grave

The context for this is that Kaladin is training his men in the chasms, and Syl is discussing the danger she faced in coming to find Kaladin.  On the face of it, she is encouraging Kaladin that he is not alone, that other spren are struggling against the prohibition for bonding humans, and there will be other Radiants.  Syl of course doesn't actually know Shallan, when Shallan finally shows up at the Shattered Plains, Syl doesn't recognize her, know she is a Radiant, or even sense Pattern except maybe vaguely at the 4v1 duel (there's a number of spren she could have sensed then though.)  But something about the Connection between Shallan and Syl in the Spiritual Realm allows Syl to "see" Shallan in that moment.  Brandon analogizes that moment to Kaladin's affinity for his spear and Syl and Kaladin's own bond.  In other words... "fun Cosmere connections" language aside, it seems pretty significant.

One of the things we see in OB is that Syl really likes Shallan.  She encourages Kaladin multiples times to pursue Shallan, pushing against his own wishes; I would argue Kaladin would not have made even the (small) overtures he did towards Shallan if it wasn't for Syl's insistence.  Syl and Shallan hang out in Shadesmar without Kaladin, including the fact Syl wants to remain with Shallan in Celebrant.  (This is of course partially due to Shallan's lightweaving skills, but Syl at that point already had a lightwoven disguise.)  Syl is also skeptical of Shallan's choice of Adolin at the end of OB, encouraging Kaladin to continue his pursuit, and indicating she can't see Shallan's "choice is made".

All in all, we know Syl has a Connection to Shallan through the Spiritual Realm (where everything is one), and that these types of connections are "echoes" of events that are forming, not something as strong as "destiny", but still a definite "something is there."  And since Syl is constantly pushing Kaladin towards Shallan, I think there's a great inference to made that Syl is "knowing" something about Shallan which is not yet explicit in real time in the Physical Realm.  While not for certain (as nothing is until confirmed as such), the fact Brandon spontaneously brought this up in a question that had literally nothing to do with romance or Shallan at all, seems to be him pointing towards yet another piece of foreshadowing for Shalladin, one which was not apparent from the text, but he obviously seeded a long time ago.

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In this regard and centered on Shallan, is the incident in Dalinar's Dream, where he grabs a fire poker and kills one of the Voidbringer monsters, in his dream in a long past time, essentially changing, (possibly) the time line . . . This brought me starkly to the scene where Shallan's father (possibly deep in alcoholic mental absence), loses his temper and grabs the fire poker and hits Balat on the thigh several times.

Are the Cosmere 'watchers'** presence in the lives of the people they watch ( Syl seeming to be someone on a beach?), capable of causing changes, is this possibly the reason they watch, and would the incident not have occurred with Shallan's father if he had been strongly in his own consciousness, and not washed out by the drink?  Was this a watcher's moment in the Danvar family which was overlain when Dalinar was put into the Stormfather's educational dream sequences?  This bespeaks great power!

Remember, the priest told Dalinar ... ~"they can make you see things which are not . . "  faulty memory here, but the warning was be careful what you see and believe, so are the visions, and are the return of the sprend bondings a plus for all of humanity, or only for those who are caught up in the wonder of it all . . . And how will it pan out over time?   All these "broken" ones? . .  Shallan is clearly another broken one . . Broken very young, or born with her bond, and beyond her mother's ability to comprehend. I think the bonded are more fully emotionally fulfilled, they are fuller than the others, and though stronger, more easily scarred. . . maybe?

 

And then there are those amazing things connected to Elsecaller Jasnith, it seems also born bonded!

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Given that I am hardly a realmatics expert and find much of it confusing, what I'm about to say should be taken with a grain of salt, as this is my understanding of realmatics.

I've always kind of seen the spiritual realm as kind of like a pool connecting past, present and future, as well as people and place. In the spiritual realm, past, present and future all happen concurrently, so a connection formed in the future could have a sort of "ripple" effect, kind of like if you dropped a rock into a pond. Those ripples would then spread throughout time, creating tiny, subtle connections you would see formed in the present and past, since all three are happening right now. It's not destiny, as much as it's evidence of something that is happening.

<I'm not sure if that made sense. Metaphysics hurts my brain...>

So with that rough explanation out of the way, I had always interpreted that scene to be Syl mimicking something she'd seen, or trying out a new face. I never would have made that connection without Brandon explicitly stating that Syl was turning into Shallan. We know, from ample textual evidence however, that Shallan is kind of akin to Tien in Kaladin's mind in terms of significance. Regardless of if romance is involved, the fact that Shallan is the only other person, apart from Tien, that Kaladin specifically states drives the darkness away is hugely important. In my experience with depression, people that do that are few and far between, and usually become people that you hold very tightly to.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

One of the things we see in OB is that Syl really likes Shallan.  She encourages Kaladin multiples times to pursue Shallan, pushing against his own wishes; I would argue Kaladin would not have made even the (small) overtures he did towards Shallan if it wasn't for Syl's insistence.  Syl and Shallan hang out in Shadesmar without Kaladin, including the fact Syl wants to remain with Shallan in Celebrant.  (This is of course partially due to Shallan's lightweaving skills, but Syl at that point already had a lightwoven disguise.)  Syl is also skeptical of Shallan's choice of Adolin at the end of OB, encouraging Kaladin to continue his pursuit, and indicating she can't see Shallan's "choice is made".

I would also like to reiterate that Syl's gravitation toward Shallan should not be taken lightly. She repeatedly asserts that not only should Kaladin pursue Shallan, but that Shallan is better for Kaladin. That Kaladin is happier with Shallan. In fact, most of the time it is Kaladin who squashes the idea, even at the end of Oathbringer. Personally, I think it's largely self-pity. He doesn't think he deserves her. He's messed things up in the past, and she deserves someone who can give her better. Adolin is, in his mind, a perfect candidate for that, and she already seems to love him. And he tries to convince himself that that is true, but like the Jiminy Cricket she is, Syl continues to try to push Kaladin toward something better.

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It's definitely fascinating that Brandon chose to reveal that detail on such an unrelated question. The word that seems to have sent him on that tangent is destiny. @Alderant's explanation of past, present and future occurring concurrently in the spiritual realm is a good theory for why "destiny" isn't quite the right word to explain the connection between Syl and Shallan (or by extension Kaladin and Shallan). But apparently their future connection is akin enough to destiny in his mind that it led him to what seems like a wholly unrelated answer. 

It seems like maybe Brandon specifically wanted to reveal that it was Shallan that Syl took the appearance of in that scene. In context, you could perhaps guess that is what was going on (Syl is talking about others becoming Radiant and we know Shallan is one of those, and we see Shallan on the ocean shore at the beginning of the next chapter) but you'd never be sure if Brandon hadn't confirmed it since the text is quite subtle. 

So basically I agree that it is significant that Syl pushes Kaladin towards Shallan so much and even at the end of OB she does not seem convinced that Shallan made her choice of Adolin. I relate that to what we've seen from Syl in the past, pushing Kaladin along his path as a Radiant, at times knowing what he needs to do when he does not. I think we see similar things from Pattern towards Shallan in OB, (though she doesn't listen to him for the most part). We've also seen Syl say that as she learns things it is like she always knew them, and there are indications that she "remembers" things related to Kaladin that she wasn't around for, so there seems to be a past connection as well. 

 

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I'm pretty sure that inaudible time and space comment was me talking from the line behind the questioner. My take is that where the physical realm has length/width/depth/time across four dimensions, the spiritual realm smashes all of this together. It's as if the spiritual realm is only Tralfamadorians, or wormhole aliens from DS9, or some other entity that experiences time as if it were space.

My point is, what I hear when I hear the spiritual realm is where time and space is one, is that in the spiritual realm, everything that has happened and will happened is arranged as if it were left to right. So Syl knows Kaladin and Shallan in the spiritual realm because there it's as if she's standing next to them, instead of she has yet to meet them.

Does this make sense? Any Vonnegut or DS9 fans about?

P.S. Sisko is #1 Star Trek captain fite me

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24 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm pretty sure that inaudible time and space comment was me talking from the line behind the questioner. My take is that where the physical realm has length/width/depth/time across four dimensions, the spiritual realm smashes all of this together. It's as if the spiritual realm is only Tralfamadorians, or wormhole aliens from DS9, or some other entity that experiences time as if it were space.

My point is, what I hear when I hear the spiritual realm is where time and space is one, is that in the spiritual realm, everything that has happened and will happened is arranged as if it were left to right. So Syl knows Kaladin and Shallan in the spiritual realm because there it's as if she's standing next to them, instead of she has yet to meet them.

Does this make sense? Any Vonnegut or DS9 fans about?

P.S. Sisko is #1 Star Trek captain fite me

Hey, feel free to edit the WoB to what you actually said.  I'm sorry, my ears are not great at making out words sometimes.

And yes, it makes sense for me, at least.

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Could these "little connections happening" and the "cans of worms" that Brandon is mentioning in the following WoB are connected?

Spoiler

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct... When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Because Jasnah escaped the sinking Wind's Pleasure somehow, maybe Elsecalling (or Wit's world-hopping) caused that "little connection" to happen.

Or maybe the fact that Shallan survived and she would be now on her way to the Shattered Plains, it would mean that eventually she and Kaladin would meet, so as the strings of these events were about to happen Syl reacted to that potential through her spiritual connection.

Either case, the fact that Syl is affected by Shallan is indeed peculiar :)

Edit: Also, we have the scene where Shallan draws in WoR Chapter 30:

Quote

She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb. 

Could it be connected as well? We have the presence of water in both cases. Maybe water is to Honor/Cultivation, what mist was to Preservation?

Edited by insert_anagram_here
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16 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

It's definitely fascinating that Brandon chose to reveal that detail on such an unrelated question. The word that seems to have sent him on that tangent is destiny. @Alderant's explanation of past, present and future occurring concurrently in the spiritual realm is a good theory for why "destiny" isn't quite the right word to explain the connection between Syl and Shallan (or by extension Kaladin and Shallan). But apparently their future connection is akin enough to destiny in his mind that it led him to what seems like a wholly unrelated answer. 

I think the connection is The Stormfather.

The "°"Highstorm"°" connects all three realms, and this is why it recharges spheres.  The hugh beings who walk in the storm have been seen twice now . . and who might they be?

Destiny is a name//term tied to many concepts, but in fandom, to comics//movies and such ... thus it is already a concept formed from the lands and powers of STORMLIGHT, . . . but is neither a shard, nor a Herald.  Destiny as a concept//namesake is not the tie, imvho.  But Dalinar, Syl, Shallan, Szeth as Windrunners or otherwise are tied to 'air' as an element (Stormfather), and possibly closer to each other in Shadesmar, therefore!  Possibly?

 

I also connect 'Storm' to "change" ... but that is just my view.

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35 minutes ago, SallyA said:

I think the connection is The Stormfather.

The "°"Highstorm"°" connects all three realms, and this is why it recharges spheres.  The hugh beings who walk in the storm have been seen twice now . . and who might they be?

Destiny is a name//term tied to many concepts, but in fandom, to comics//movies and such ... thus it is already a concept formed from the lands and powers of STORMLIGHT, . . . but is neither a shard, nor a Herald.  Destiny as a concept//namesake is not the tie, imvho.  But Dalinar, Syl, Shallan, Szeth as Windrunners or otherwise are tied to 'air' as an element (Stormfather), and possibly closer to each other in Shadesmar, therefore!  Possibly?

 

I also connect 'Storm' to "change" ... but that is just my view.

The Highstorm--the thing that recharges the spheres--is Honor's perpendicularity, the same thing that Dalinar summoned on the battle of Thaylen Field.

As far as destiny goes...I'm honestly not sure what your point here is. When I mentioned destiny previously, I was specifically stating that the "little connections" between Syl/Kaladin and Shallan were more aftershocks of a connection made in the SR, rather than a foreordained occurrence that was bound to happen. Destiny and foreordination are two terms usually used hand in hand, and what I was attempting to describe was the opposite.

Dalinar, Syl, Szeth, Shallan...none of those are Windrunners or tied to "air". Dalinar is a bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather himself, Syl is a spren, Shallan is a lightweaver, and Szeth is a skybreaker. I'm not sure what information you're drawing from here.

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43 minutes ago, SallyA said:

I think the connection is The Stormfather.

The "°"Highstorm"°" connects all three realms, and this is why it recharges spheres.  The hugh beings who walk in the storm have been seen twice now . . and who might they be?

Destiny is a name//term tied to many concepts, but in fandom, to comics//movies and such ... thus it is already a concept formed from the lands and powers of STORMLIGHT, . . . but is neither a shard, nor a Herald.  Destiny as a concept//namesake is not the tie, imvho.  But Dalinar, Syl, Shallan, Szeth as Windrunners or otherwise are tied to 'air' as an element (Stormfather), and possibly closer to each other in Shadesmar, therefore!  Possibly?

 

I also connect 'Storm' to "change" ... but that is just my view.

Not sure if I understand the direction you are going here, but it seems like you are suggesting there is something else (not destiny) that ties not only Shallan and Syl but others (Szeth, Dalinar) together? I'm not really seeing a particular connection between all of the characters you identified there, at least not as it relates to the WoB and the passage quoted in the OP. 

Also since you quoted a part of my previous post, I should clarify that in the part you quoted I was referring to the questioner using the word "destiny" in his question and then Brandon's response to that word. To me Brandon went in a surprising direction in his answer by including this anecdote about Syl appearing like Shallan. That to me suggested that when Brandon heard the word destiny he thought about Spiritual Realm Connections. I don't get the sense that he is writing "destiny' as a concept in which events are foreordained. I think if anything his version of destiny refers to just what he said, Connections in the Spiritual Realm that can manifest in the present even if they haven't happened yet because in the Spiritual Realm all time and place is one. It's a bit hard to wrap my mind around, but that's what makes the most sense to me from his answer and this example. 

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3 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

To me Brandon went in a surprising direction in his answer by including this anecdote about Syl appearing like Shallan. That to me suggested that when Brandon heard the word destiny he thought about Spiritual Realm Connections. I don't get the sense that he is writing "destiny' as a concept in which events are foreordained. I think if anything his version of destiny refers to just what he said, Connections in the Spiritual Realm that can manifest in the present even if they haven't happened yet because in the Spiritual Realm all time and place is one. It's a bit hard to wrap my mind around, but that's what makes the most sense to me from his answer and this example. 

I agree!  I don't know if you've read Oathbringer, so I don't want to make a spoiler, but Shallan will be tied to the Kholin family, in the future, which will be very interesting to read about.  And that does put her much closer to all of them except Kaladin, in future time!  Kal has basically tied himself to Dalinar as well.   Things are quite amazing in the last battle in Oathbringer . . . Wow,

So, no disagreement at all . . 

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3 hours ago, Alderant said:

The Highstorm--the thing that recharges the spheres--is Honor's perpendicularity, the same thing that Dalinar summoned on the battle of Thaylen Field.

As far as destiny goes...I'm honestly not sure what your point here is. When I mentioned destiny previously, I was specifically stating that the "little connections" between Syl/Kaladin and Shallan were more aftershocks of a connection made in the SR, rather than a foreordained occurrence that was bound to happen. Destiny and foreordination are two terms usually used hand in hand, and what I was attempting to describe was the opposite.

Dalinar, Syl, Szeth, Shallan...none of those are Windrunners or tied to "air". Dalinar is a bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather himself, Syl is a spren, Shallan is a lightweaver, and Szeth is a skybreaker. I'm not sure what information you're drawing from here.

Thank you for the clarification!

I was thinking that surgebinders who could do lashings in mid-air  were Windrunners, and I thought this was Kaladin's order of knights.  I put Szeth in there by that association, my bad.

Dalinar bonded The Stormfather, and Syl is the Stormfather's daughter (? Correct me if I'm wrong, please, this is a new way of thinking for me).

Kaladin seems to share not only the Syl-bond, but some connection with the Stormfather, as he has spoken to him in visions, and dreamed of being carried with the storm before his powers manifested . .

It was Honor's Perpendicularity which Dalinar manifested in the Thaylen battle? ... I thought perhaps Dalinar had manifested his own perpendicularity, and it brought Shallan, Kaladin, Andolin, & Syl back from Sadesmar.

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Thanks for all the interesting perspectives!  A couple of responses/questions.

On 3/6/2018 at 0:05 PM, Alderant said:

I've always kind of seen the spiritual realm as kind of like a pool connecting past, present and future, as well as people and place. In the spiritual realm, past, present and future all happen concurrently, so a connection formed in the future could have a sort of "ripple" effect, kind of like if you dropped a rock into a pond. Those ripples would then spread throughout time, creating tiny, subtle connections you would see formed in the present and past, since all three are happening right now. It's not destiny, as much as it's evidence of something that is happening.

This is how I see it too.  Well, I think.  It also hurts my brain a bit.  Basically everything past, present and future just is.  Like you say in another part, it's not preordained, but it still exists.  I admit I go a little crazy at the nature of it (if the future is, then how do you have freedom of choice for instance?), but I agree with the fundamental principle.

On 3/6/2018 at 0:05 PM, Alderant said:

I would also like to reiterate that Syl's gravitation toward Shallan should not be taken lightly. She repeatedly asserts that not only should Kaladin pursue Shallan, but that Shallan is better for Kaladin. That Kaladin is happier with Shallan. In fact, most of the time it is Kaladin who squashes the idea, even at the end of Oathbringer. Personally, I think it's largely self-pity. He doesn't think he deserves her. He's messed things up in the past, and she deserves someone who can give her better. Adolin is, in his mind, a perfect candidate for that, and she already seems to love him. And he tries to convince himself that that is true, but like the Jiminy Cricket she is, Syl continues to try to push Kaladin toward something better.

 

21 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

So basically I agree that it is significant that Syl pushes Kaladin towards Shallan so much and even at the end of OB she does not seem convinced that Shallan made her choice of Adolin. I relate that to what we've seen from Syl in the past, pushing Kaladin along his path as a Radiant, at times knowing what he needs to do when he does not. I think we see similar things from Pattern towards Shallan in OB, (though she doesn't listen to him for the most part).

Quoting you both for this, but I think there's something very interesting about the fact both Syl and Pattern are pushing their Radiants towards things they think they "need".  (They do this with varying degrees of tact and success of course.)  Could this be a spiritual realm Connection in knowing what is required (since it's all one in the SR) in order to progress?  Considering we have been told there is such a Connection with regards to Syl and Shallan, and we see Syl pushing Kaladin so hard at Shallan, I don't think we can rule it out.  It's interesting to consider.  For instance, how does Pattern know Shallan killed her mother?  How does he even know that's a truth she needs to say when she's not even cognizant she did that in the first place?

17 hours ago, Rainier said:

My point is, what I hear when I hear the spiritual realm is where time and space is one, is that in the spiritual realm, everything that has happened and will happened is arranged as if it were left to right.

So jealous you were there!  Did you ask a question?  Regarding this point, did you see this differently than @Alderant explained above?  I'm not sure if the left to right indicates some temporal dimension in the spiritual realm based on your conception.

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:
Quote

She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb. 

Could it be connected as well? We have the presence of water in both cases. Maybe water is to Honor/Cultivation, what mist was to Preservation?

This is really interesting, especially if Yalb is alive...  (Or else it could be Shallan's wishful thinking.)  Shallan does do a lot of "unconscious" drawing IIRC.  I'm trying to think of anything else which could be seen as a potential "seeing" of current events or echoes of a potential connection...  Obviously she draws Kaladin at the Urithiru meeting, lol, but that seems to be a lustful thing, not spiritual realm connection. 

4 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

I should clarify that in the part you quoted I was referring to the questioner using the word "destiny" in his question and then Brandon's response to that word. To me Brandon went in a surprising direction in his answer by including this anecdote about Syl appearing like Shallan. That to me suggested that when Brandon heard the word destiny he thought about Spiritual Realm Connections. I don't get the sense that he is writing "destiny' as a concept in which events are foreordained. I think if anything his version of destiny refers to just what he said, Connections in the Spiritual Realm that can manifest in the present even if they haven't happened yet because in the Spiritual Realm all time and place is one.

In my thinking, it was like someone mentioned destiny, and he thought of situations which could be considered destiny in his mind (Syl bonding Kaladin, Kaladin and Shallan connection) and was explaining why they may come across this way, but that it isn't actually destiny.  So I agree, it was the questioner saying that word which seemed to spur the tangent.

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1 hour ago, SallyA said:

Thank you for the clarification!

I was thinking that surgebinders who could do lashings in mid-air  were Windrunners, and I thought this was Kaladin's order of knights.  I put Szeth in there by that association, my bad.

Dalinar bonded The Stormfather, and Syl is the Stormfather's daughter (? Correct me if I'm wrong, please, this is a new way of thinking for me).

Kaladin seems to share not only the Syl-bond, but some connection with the Stormfather, as he has spoken to him in visions, and dreamed of being carried with the storm before his powers manifested . .

It was Honor's Perpendicularity which Dalinar manifested in the Thaylen battle? ... I thought perhaps Dalinar had manifested his own perpendicularity, and it brought Shallan, Kaladin, Andolin, & Syl back from Sadesmar.

Two points: Syl calls the Stormfather her father, because he is a cognitive shadow of Honor. Syl is an honorspren—a splinter of the Honor Shard, so she can reasonably call him father, though whether or not that is actually the case is subject to debae  

Second point: Dalinar manifested Honor’s Perpendicularity through his powers as a bondsmith, which, since he’s bonded to the Stormfather, brings him the closest to being the holder of Honor’s Shard Roshar has right now. It wasnt his own perpendicularity, but was connected to the power of Honor he held as a bondsmith. In manifesting the perpendicularity, Dalinar brought the three realms together, and so Adolin, Shallan, Kaladin, Syl, and Pattern were able to join the physical realm because the distance between realms was practically nonexistent. 

Hope that helps!

Edited by Alderant
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Thank you @Alderant, that helps a lot!

I was putting off reading all the Mistborn books, but it seems that I am never really going to be able to conceptualize this amazing Universe without doing so.

Sorry, that I forgot Pattern, he is one of my favs.

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I thought of something I forgot to add earlier. I think it would be interesting to try to get a WoB on why it is that Syl was so encouraging for Kaladin to pursue Shallan. In this case it might even be interesting if we got a RAFO. Not sure what would be the best way to phrase it. 

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19 hours ago, Rainier said:

My point is, what I hear when I hear the spiritual realm is where time and space is one, is that in the spiritual realm, everything that has happened and will happened is arranged as if it were left to right. So Syl knows Kaladin and Shallan in the spiritual realm because there it's as if she's standing next to them, instead of she has yet to meet them.

Does this make sense? Any Vonnegut or DS9 fans about?

Yep, it does, and it is amazing for me to make this comnection at this point!

It had escaped me completely.

I had wondered if Sadesmar were a segment of Kether, or if it were representative of something I call the Primal Universe, whereas we live on planets, in galaxies in the secondary or common Univetse, and between lay the Dreamtime, or the realm of the Singers and Listeners, some aware, many not aware.

Your view would slot into the Primal Universe, in some parlance, the dark matter Universe.

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2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

For instance, how does Pattern know Shallan killed her mother?  How does he even know that's a truth she needs to say when she's not even cognizant she did that in the first place?

Shallin has repressed this, but the deed was done with her shardblade it seems, and that would be Pattern!  In remembering, she can confess this truth and begin her path to full Knight Radient.  Jasnith, however, recognized her latent power in Karbaranth at the library there, after Shallan had watched Jasnith soulcast away the stone which fell in the palace.

Dreamstorm said:

Quote

 I'm not sure if the left to right indicates some temporal dimension in the spiritual realm based on your conception.

So if the cognitive Universe is like a high spin, dark matter or Primal Universe, it exists outside spacetime, but it is carrying, at least in Sadesmar, the concepts, the impressions of everything which has come into existence in the secondary matter Universes, the galaxies and planets which we inhabit.

Life has placed there flames (plasmas) and solidified spren!!!

Left to right is a western convention, other conventions are right to left and down, and in the Easter Island script the convention is like a thread being pulled back and forth through a loom.  Writing informs a subjective view which is very pervasive.

I would venture that the arraingement of things in whichever version of the realm is seen is the connection of objects to Time . . Which exists in the secondary Universe of planets and solid life forms.  That would be my guess.  I agree with you.

 

The question remains, is there an ordination for morality to enhance living and foster progress and evolution, and I would say there is, and Syl is the proof.  But that is in Sadesmar, and Sadesmar is clearly not the full on Primal Universe.  It is the one tied to the Cosmere.

These books are great to read!  Happy to have found Brandon.

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23 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Shallin has repressed this, but the deed was done with her shardblade it seems, and that would be Pattern!  In remembering, she can confess this truth and begin her path to full Knight Radient.

You are totally right!  I feel a little silly now, thanks for reminding me.  Looking too hard for other possible spiritual realm connections, haha.

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13 hours ago, SallyA said:

I had wondered if Sadesmar were a segment of Kether, or if it were representative of something I call the Primal Universe, whereas we live on planets, in galaxies in the secondary or common Univetse, and between lay the Dreamtime, or the realm of the Singers and Listeners, some aware, many not aware.

Your view would slot into the Primal Universe, in some parlance, the dark matter Universe.

Are these Cosmere terms, or real science terms, or something else?  I've never heard of these before.  

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17 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm not sure if the left to right indicates some temporal dimension in the spiritual realm based on your conception.

Yeah, the point is to treat time as the same as space, so you, all of you, are the path you take through time, not just your physical presence at one moment in time. You in the past is the same as you in the future, it's all the same you. So when Syl says she knows Shallan before they meet, or Kaladin before he was a slave, what she's saying is that in the spiritual realm they've already met, or that already doesn't really have meaning. They are going to meet, so they have met, which means that they've always met.

This gets into problems with free will, if you believe in that sort of thing, but it's my conception.

But really, I can't help but thinking of Sisko in the premier of Deep Space 9 talking to the Prophets/wormhole aliens. They bring him back to when his wife died, and ask, "Why are you here?" They recognize that everything that has happened or will happen is all the same, so Sisko is still there, because he's always been there, because every moment of your life is still there, frozen in time like a single frame in a movie reel.

So Syl had always met Kaladin, and she's there with him in the cage, in the chasms, on the Tower, and everything we haven't seen yet, all at the same time, or that 'same time' doesn't really apply. It IS, not was or will be.

Edited by Rainier
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I think the cosmere view is that there's a lot of possible futures. I'd guess the echoes thing is echoing the ones that are very probable. But people have free will, like what happened with Jasnah and Renarin at the end of OB.

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I suppose it's a good thing Brandon clarified that scene, because he was being ridiculously opaque if he expected anyone to pull that interpretation out of the scene as written.  Syl is standing by a pool and her face looks vaguely different in a way that is not elaborated upon...Aha, of course, it is Shallan!???

I'm not sure I buy that Syl encouraging Kaladin to spend time with Shallan is somehow a time-loop of predestined fates either.  I think Syl just wants Kaladin to be happy, and Kaladin (sometimes) is happier after he has spent time talking with Shallan, notably after their heart to heart in the chasms.  Shallan is one of the very few people that Kaladin has ever been open with about his inner demons, I imagine Syl encouraging him to talk with her is because she realizes on some level that Kaladin desperately needs a friend/confidant he can share these things with.

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11 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Syl is standing by a pool and her face looks vaguely different in a way that is not elaborated upon...Aha, of course, it is Shallan!???

Doesn't even crack the top five craziest Shallan theories.

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On 3/8/2018 at 9:17 AM, Scion of the Mists said:
On 3/7/2018 at 7:20 PM, SallyA said:

I had wondered if Sadesmar were a segment of Kether, or if it were representative of something I call the Primal Universe, whereas we live on planets, in galaxies in the secondary or common Univetse, and between lay the Dreamtime, or the realm of the Singers and Listeners, some aware, many not aware.

Your view would slot into the Primal Universe, in some parlance, the dark matter Universe.

Are these Cosmere terms, or real science terms, or something else?  I've never heard of these before.  

 

Kether is the top of the Seperoth, the mind of G^d, perhaps.  It is where the Serpent of creation does a U-turn and goes back down the tree . . . It is a thoroughly studied concept, and it's G^dly aspects might mirror Sadesmar, but this is a long shot, only brought up for a thorough consideration.

The Primal Matter Universe was posited back in the day when the Philosopher's Stone was a much sought after item . . That spans from Newton way, way back to the times of Aristotle, and possibly earlier.  It does not go back to the time of Soloman's Temple, because those priests were aware of high spin, and made the Bread of the Presence (high spin gold) for the high houses of that age.  This is DNA protective in case of tadiation exposure. (LOTS, we do not know!)

High spin will not connect, all its electrons are strongly bound, and it is a super conductor.  Electrons slide around it frictionlessly!  No spectrograph, either.

The term "common Universe" is coined in my books, Against the Heart of Darkness vol, 1 & 2.  It just means the Universe we are familiar with.

I am not usually a reader of fiction, but Brandon's is SO COMPREHENSIVE! . . . I made an exception, and dove in and did not stop reading for 6 weeks!

I was waiting to drive to Utah, so had time on my hands . . . I SUSPECT THE Cosmere and the real Universe will collide and mesh somewhere in the great subdomains of life//time//space . . . So I have not stinted to bring real science and real history ( such as the singers of the garment industry pre Sumeria) ... because they lend a kind of credence to Brandon's mythos (and the Parsh-people). . .

And  because in Sumeria there is a great and over-riding tradition of unspoken things being tied to spoken things . . . Like the garment makers make clothing, but are related in myth to those who bring forth the waves of life in the Universe, (making clothing for the light body, spiritual body) --- which makes it simplicity itself to see that their bonding of a new form of Spren would change the nature of the life on Roshar, if the Parsh-people are the base race.  The western mind set has no way to accomodate such things, but such things are known in history.

Then we are told humans were the Voidbringers!  hmmmm ....

If I confuse you ask . . . I will try to explain.

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