LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian

[OB Spoilers] Is Voidbinding just a form of fabrial science?

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Please feel free to savage this theory (looking at you @RShara;)).

First of all, as we know, to assume a form of power or become a fused one must bind a spren to your gemheart. To create a fabrial, one must also bind a spren to a gem.

Also, you know how Surgebinders don't change appearance from binding surges and Voidbinders do? Remember who else changes appearance from using surges? Fabrial using Soulcasters, that's who.

And finally, this would explain why we haven't seen Voidbinders using two surges; fabrials can only do one thing.

Thanks for reading!

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This assumes that the Fused are voidbinding. Considering the voidbinding chart, and Renarin, I don't think they do. 

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I asked a similar question: Could the Parshendi be a sort of living fabrial? (though I'm pretty sure it was also @RShara who answered probably not XD)

Though in OB there is one character who ends up with two spren bonded, with one overruling the other. Don't know how that would fit into things since I don't think there's been any mention of single gems with multiple spren inside?

 

Edited by Zellyia
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Ehhh I am taking a mini-break.  I know, I know, don't hyperventilate on the sigh of relief ;)  Just kinda turned off on things at the moment.

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@Zellyia, sorry, but I can't really remember what you mean by that. Who bonded to Spren? (except, you count Nightblood as a kind of spren, then I get what you mean).

To the upper comment, I still think Voidbinding is what the Fused us. What Renarin uses, I still think is Surgebinding, because of the simple reason, that he fuels from Stormlight, and not Voidlight. That some of his abilities are corrupted, yes I agree with that. But of course, we can't be for sure, just my opinion.

 

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18 minutes ago, Thunder_93 said:

@Zellyia, sorry, but I can't really remember what you mean by that. Who bonded to Spren? (except, you count Nightblood as a kind of spren, then I get what you mean).

Sorry, that's what I get trying to be evasive lol. 

Spoiler

I meant Venli. She has a voidspren which granted her envoy form, but then she also bonded with Timbre at the end (who I think is a Willshaper Spren).

 

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1 minute ago, Zellyia said:

Sorry, that's what I get trying to be evasive lol. 

  Hide contents

I meant Venli. She has a voidspren which granted her envoy form, but then she also bonded with Timbre at the end (who I think is a Willshaper Spren).

 

I kind of thought that Venli and Timbre shared a Nahel bond, while Venli's voidspren was simply bound to her gemheart, which, if true, fits in with this theory.

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@Zellyia No need to spoiler things in threads with [OB] tags. All spoilers allowed (for all Cosmere, on this board).

@LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian (for some reason I can't tag you) what if fabrials are a form of voidbinding or whatever it is the Fused do?

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1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

@Zellyia No need to spoiler things in threads with [OB] tags. All spoilers allowed (for all Cosmere, on this board).

@LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian (for some reason I can't tag you) what if fabrials are a form of voidbinding or whatever it is the Fused do?

That is a possibility, but I think the opposite is true, since voidspren are corrupted spren instead of a separate species of spren, so it seems more likely that Voidbinding is simply a corrupt version of fabrial science instead of fabrial science being a form of Voidbinding. This is also based on the fact that (I can't remember the exact quote) the Dawnsingers state that they were forbidden to use surges, and then when the humans came the spren bonded the humans. Since the Nahel bond appeared after Honor created the Heralds that could not have been the way the surges were accessed, and they could not have considered Voibinding as a way to access surges since it is of Odium, and Odium came with the humans. The only possibility left is fabrial science.

Btw thanks for the attention to the theory) My first that hasn't instantly and thoroughly been debunked.

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5 hours ago, LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian said:

The top WOB basically proves that Renarin isn't exactly Voibinding.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=voidbinding+chart

That WoB does not show that Renarin is not Voidbinding, it’s saying that Renarin is Voidbinding to see the future, but powering the Voidbinding with Stormlight, which is not how it usually works.

I think it was Argent (the person who asked that question) that had asked Brandon at a different signing what was going on with Renarin and his visions and Brandon pointed at the Voidbinding chart. So it appears that Renarin is Voidbinding, he’s just not doing it in the “normal” way. 

I’m also curious where you got the info that all Voidspren are corrupted spren and not their own species? Because the only spren we know that had been corrupted are Glys, the Kholinar Oathgate spren, and the emotionspren around Kholinar in Part 3 of OB. Pattern and Syl always refer to the Voidspren as “his” spren (Odium’s), which suggests to me that they are a separate species of spren not just corrupted spren. 

Last thing, I agree with Calderis that the Fused are not Voidbinding. To me it seems that Voidbinding will provide different abilities than normal Surgebinding (see Renarin’s visions), whereas the Fused simply seem to be accessing the normal Surges used in Surgebinding, but fueled with Voidlight. 

Edited by JPark317
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6 hours ago, LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian said:

I kind of thought that Venli and Timbre shared a Nahel bond, while Venli's voidspren was simply bound to her gemheart, which, if true, fits in with this theory.

Both Timbre and the voidspren are captured within Venli's gemheart. That's actually the problem with Dawnsingers forming a bond with the higher spren. Their bond required the spren to be trapped within the gemheart, so Timbre is stuck there. The higher spren don't like being trapped like that, and as far as we know, this is the primary reason there were not Dawnsinger Radiants. But that's not super confirmed, so we might find out a better reason in the next book.

 

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2 hours ago, JPark317 said:

That WoB does not show that Renarin is not Voidbinding, it’s saying that Renarin is Voidbinding to see the future, but powering the Voidbinding with Stormlight, which is not how it usually works.

I think it was Argent (the person who asked that question) that had asked Brandon at a different signing what was going on with Renarin and his visions and Brandon pointed at the Voidbinding chart. So it appears that Renarin is Voidbinding, he’s just not doing it in the “normal” way. 

I’m also curious where you got the info that all Voidspren are corrupted spren and not their own species? Because the only spren we know that had been corrupted are Glys, the Kholinar Oathgate spren, and the emotionspren around Kholinar in Part 3 of OB. Pattern and Syl always refer to the Voidspren as “his” spren (Odium’s), which suggests to me that they are a separate species of spren not just corrupted spren. 

Last thing, I agree with Calderis that the Fused are not Voidbinding. To me it seems that Voidbinding will provide different abilities than normal Surgebinding (see Renarin’s visions), whereas the Fused simply seem to be accessing the normal Surges used in Surgebinding, but fueled with Voidlight. 

Truthcallers can predict the future, it was in one of gems that they found in Urthithru.

 

1 hour ago, Wandering Investor said:

Both Timbre and the voidspren are captured within Venli's gemheart. That's actually the problem with Dawnsingers forming a bond with the higher spren. Their bond required the spren to be trapped within the gemheart, so Timbre is stuck there. The higher spren don't like being trapped like that, and as far as we know, this is the primary reason there were not Dawnsinger Radiants. But that's not super confirmed, so we might find out a better reason in the next book.

 

I believe Timbre can leave any time she wants.

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I thought that particular Truthwatcher gem was implying that it was an anomaly, one that the Radiant in question felt they needed to hide (for whatever reason).  

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10 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Truthcallers can predict the future, it was in one of gems that they found in Urthithru.

That was a single Truthwatcher’s account, and he said he “cannot say it out loud,” and “must whisper...that [he] foresaw this,” implying that they did not regularly see the future. Regardless of normal Truthwatcher powers, there is a WoB (maybe Act of Brandon) where he points to the Voidbinding chart when asked to explain why Renarin sees the future. I can not locate the exact quote, but the previously mentioned WoB cited above includes Argent referencing said Act by Brandon (pointing to the Voidbinding chart).

Landis got his reply in first haha. 

Edited by JPark317
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Alright. Here's my take. First we have "The Page" which is what the above posts are referencing. 

Then we have the aforementioned WoB, which I'll repost for completion. 

Quote

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. 

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

source

So, in context, yes Renarin is voidbinding. 

On the referenced voidbinding chart, the glyphs for the surges are exactly the same, with their rotational symmetry changed to invert half of the glyph.

Renarin is seemingly incapable of normal use of illumination. According to the narrative he has tried and failed repeatedly to use illumination in the way that we know from Shallan. He can however create his "windows" to peer into the future. I believe that this is a voidbinding expression of the surge of illumination. He has one normal surge, and one Voidbinding surge, due to the "enlightened" nature of Glys, allowing him to fuel his voidbinding with Stormlight. As a consequence, I also believe that Renarin will receive a unique resonance, as he has two powers that are not normally combined. 

Herein is the primary reason that I believe the Fused are not voidbinding. The surge of illumination that Renarin uses, like the glyphs on the voidbinding chart, are altered in a way so that it is fundamentally different than surgebinding. 

The Fused we have seen may use Voidlight, but the surges that they manipulate are fundamentally the same as everything we have seen from. Our Radiants. I believe that the are using a hacked access to fuel surgebinding with Voidlight. 

I'm speculating off of the things that we've seen, but until there is more evidence to on the way voidbinding functions, I think that Renarin is currently the only Voidbinding that we've seen, if he's accessing it through a means abnormal means. 

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Will the Fused that used the surge of gravity they decrease and increase slower than Kaladin, and the fuse that grew its armor, if he's using growth, used growth on itself. Lift has never did that, and renarin case we don't know if that's normal stormlight healing and if it is regrowth his spren is corrupted

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38 minutes ago, LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian said:

@Calderis This is slightly off topic, but are there any known differences between Voidlight and the smoke emanated by Nightblood?

Voidlight is a dark dark Violet, not black. 

And the "smoke" is corrupted Investiture. It also has the tendency to obliterate things it touches.

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Ah. I just had the stupid thought that maybe I had just discovered the corrupting influence in Nightblood's creation.

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@Calderis, I’ve been curious why you think the Fused don’t Voidbind. Now that I see your reasons, I (unsurprisingly) have a few questions.

Argent’s WoB:

You conclude,

On 3/2/2018 at 4:18 PM, Calderis said:

So, in context, yes Renarin is voidbinding. 

I read the WoB the opposite way:

1. Argent’s question assumes Renarin Voidbinds. Brandon doesn’t confirm this. Instead, he confirms that Renarin “us[es] Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.”  I think we can all agree with this.

2. When Argent asks, “Is that what Voidbinding is?” Brandon answers “No.” Putting these statements together, Brandon says Voidbinding is NOT “using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.”  IOW, Renarin doesn’t Voidbind.

Voidbinding Chart

On 3/2/2018 at 4:18 PM, Calderis said:

On the referenced voidbinding chart, the glyphs for the surges are exactly the same, with their rotational symmetry changed to invert half of the glyph.

As you know, I believe Surgebinders and Voidbinders access Shard power differently. Surgebinders get Honor’s power from the Nahel bond, a Cognitive Connection between the KR and its spren. IMO, Voidbinders get Odium’s power by breaking Cognitive Connections, separating themselves from their feelings towards others – Odium’s power fills that void.

I think this difference explains the two charts’ “inverted rotational symmetry.” The “normal” glyph half represents the Surge itself. The inverted half represents the different access means. I understand why others may conclude differently on this.

Should Voidbinding and Surgebinding Have Different Surges?

On 3/2/2018 at 4:18 PM, Calderis said:

Herein is the primary reason that I believe the Fused are not voidbinding. The surge of illumination that Renarin uses, like the glyphs on the voidbinding chart, are altered in a way so that it is fundamentally different than surgebinding. 

The Fused we have seen may use Voidlight, but the surges that they manipulate are fundamentally the same as everything we have seen from. Our Radiants. I believe that the are using a hacked access to fuel surgebinding with Voidlight. 

Why do you think the Surges themselves should be different? Brandon says, “the ‘role’ of a Shard has to do with “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

Khriss tells us Rosharan Surges are the powers Honor grants the Heralds through their Honorblades. IOW, Surges are a cultural interpretation of Honor’s power. Radiant spren embody that interpretation.

Humans and Singers mostly share that interpretation. I think this is because both cultures personify the same emotions and physical phenomena. The Fused get their Surges from gravityspren, firespren, and adhesionspren – powers that pre-exist the Shattering. But they are the same Surges.

Renarin and Glys

On 3/2/2018 at 4:18 PM, Calderis said:

Renarin is seemingly incapable of normal use of illumination. According to the narrative he has tried and failed repeatedly to use illumination in the way that we know from Shallan. He can however create his "windows" to peer into the future. I believe that this is a voidbinding expression of the surge of illumination. He has one normal surge, and one Voidbinding surge, due to the "enlightened" nature of Glys, allowing him to fuel his voidbinding with Stormlight. As a consequence, I also believe that Renarin will receive a unique resonance, as he has two powers that are not normally combined. 

I agree with most of this, except I think Renarin only Surgebinds. Glys enables Renarin to use “Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen.” IOW, Renarin uses new powers other Surgebinders don’t have. That doesn’t mean he’s Voidbinding; he just has access to a different Surge. The way he gets the power – through the Nahel bond – proves he’s Surgebinding.

I believe Cultivation transforms the voidspren Glys into a Radiant spren specifically for Renarin. Renarin’s name means, “Like one who was born unto himself.” Glys represents the Truthwatcher ideals as much as other Truthwatcher spren. Otherwise, Renarin’s oaths would not grant him powers through the Nahel bond. Cultivation needs Glys because humans personify future sight as a Voidbringer power.

Response to the OP

@LopenTheTwoArmedHerdazian, it’s a good thought, but I think the relationship is backwards. Pre-Shattering spren bond with Singers and other sentient fauna. “Investiture leaking into the Physical Realm in a similar kind of process to atium” composes natural gemhearts. These symbiotic relationships pre-exist fabrials.

IOW, I think humans based fabrials on the natural relationship. They “tricked” the spren into a gemheart to enslave it, as Taravangian describes. When Stormlight-infused, the spren produces the power it personifies, functioning like a magical heart inside a machine that replicates the spren’s normal host.

An Unrelated Question

@Calderis, I hoped you might have some response to my latest Shard/magic system theory. I thought you might say, “water is Autonomy’s Focus,” not its pathway to power. I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. I may misunderstand your Focus definition. If this interests you, would you place your Focus post on that thread? Thanks!

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45 minutes ago, Confused said:

I read the WoB the opposite way:

As I said, in context. Not just that WoB, but that WoB with the added context of the "The Page." 

Argent asks what is going on with Renarin, and Brandon swears him to secrecy until a later date and points to the voidbinding chart.

So no, I don't think that What Renarin is doing is how Voidbinding is normally achieved, but he is still Voidbinding. 

45 minutes ago, Confused said:

Why do you think the Surges themselves should be different? Brandon says, “the ‘role’ of a Shard has to do with “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.”

I'm well aware of that distinction. But that's not what it's saying. You won't have two identical sets of powers just accessed in different means. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

That WoB is saying that Allomancy is gained through Preservation's power "preserving" the user, but that the individual powers are not shaped or constrained by Preservation's intent. 

Just as Preservation's system is Allomancy, and Ruin's system is hemalurgy, the means of access are both different, but so are the things the individual systems do. 

Voidbinding is a separate system, just like fabrials are. Fabrials also manipulate surges, and yes they can mimic aspects of surgebinding. I think they'll also be able to mimic aspects of Voidbinding, as well as do things that neither can as they are particularly specialized in their applications. 

According to that WoB, Voidbinding will be access through some means of Odium, but it's powers will not be limited to Odium's intent in application. 

I don't believe for a moment though that the system is the exact same powers. 

For longer than I've been active on the forums I've believed that Roshar's focus is bonds... More and more recently, I'm becoming convinced that Roshar's focus is the surges themselves. All of the magic systems will use them. But just like the metals on Scadrial, I don't believe they will be used in the same ways.

Edit: and as to your thread @Confused, I read it and actually meant to respond, but I've been less active here somewhat because of increased work, and when I have been on have allowed myself to get distracted. You guess correctly at what I think of water on Taldain though :lol:

Edited by Calderis
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@Calderis there is a recent WoB that confirm the possibility for Fabrial to mimic Voidbinding too.

Returning to the main point, we saw also a Fused Lightweaving in the Shallan's way (something Renarin seems uncapable of doing It) during the attract to the Vault.

And we had a confirmation that Fused has not a specific Surge (so 9 Powers) while the Voidbinding chart shows all ten the canonical Surges.

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@Yata IMO one of the surges of Voidbinding is only accessible to Odium, (and maybe his version of the Stormfather), likely Division, which is why the number nine is so commonly associated with his followers.

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