Ending of Well of Ascension Questions and Voices Vin Hears

[marles]

So I just finished up my second listen to Well of Ascension, and am a little confused about the part when Vin is standing in the WoA and deciding whether to release the power or use it. If I remember correctly, Ruin has the ability to speak directly to people (if they are spiked) and Preservation has the ability to read peoples' thoughts. In the scene I am unsure about, Vin has absorbed the power of the WoA and has removed her earring.

While coming to terms with the power she is holding she begins hearing a voice, which I assume is from Preservation since she no longer has the earring in and she is currently standing in Preservation's shardpool. After thinking about all the good she could do in the world and about saving Eland the voice tells her that she "mustn't do it" and that she "knows what she must do." This just doesn't make sense to me because either:

1. The voice is from Ruin, still pushing her to release the power even though she is not currently spiked.

2. The voice is from Preservation, telling her not to do it while she is currently thinking about using the power. Presumably Preservation should be able to read Vin's thoughts and know she was thinking about using the power and should be encouraging her change the world and save Eland so that Ruin is not released.

Is there something else I'm missing that makes the voice that Vin hears in this scene make more sense?

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Also, throughout TFE and WoA, Vin hears what she assumes is the voice of her brother speaking to her. Eventually we find out the voice is actually Ruin. As I pointed out earlier, Ruin can speak directly to spiked individuals but cannot hear their thoughts. However, there are several occasions where Ruin seems to directly answer Vin's thoughts or internal questioning. I wish I had the places bookmarked in the Audiobook to quote but unfortunately I do not. Shouldn't these sorts of responses be incredibly unlikely given the one-sided nature of Ruin's conversations with people? Is there something I am also missing here when I've listened to these books the second time?

[Yezrien]

I think Ruin can speak to Vin while she's in the Well because that's where Ruin is. He's trapped in the Well's power. The spikes allow him to communicate with people from a distance, but he doesn't need one when Vin comes to him.

As to your second question, I think Ruin can simply observe the world. He can't read minds, and he can't see metal, but other than that he can see plenty. For instance, he only tells Zane "kill him" when Zane is actually talking to someone male. Ruin has been watching Vin for her whole life, and he's learned to read her moods and behaviors. He can tell when she's experiencing self-doubt, guess what it's about, and whisper an appropriate insult in Reen's voice.

[marles]

35 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

I think Ruin can speak to Vin while she's in the Well because that's where Ruin is. He's trapped in the Well's power. The spikes allow him to communicate with people from a distance, but he doesn't need one when Vin comes to him.

As to your second question, I think Ruin can simply observe the world. He can't read minds, and he can't see metal, but other than that he can see plenty. For instance, he only tells Zane "kill him" when Zane is actually talking to someone male. Ruin has been watching Vin for her whole life, and he's learned to read her moods and behaviors. He can tell when she's experiencing self-doubt, guess what it's about, and whisper an appropriate insult in Reen's voice.

I had kind of considered your first point but wasn't sure exactly if that's how it worked (Ruin being trapped there). It also kind of threw me off because of how she describes the voice, but obviously Ruin could just talk in any voice he wishes.

I'll have to try to go through the books again at some point and take notes of when Ruin talks to Vin. I know there are some occasions where things he says could be chalked up to observation of current events but I thought there were a couple that seemed a bit extreme for that. But you are probably right, I hadn't really considered that Ruin closely watching Vin for her entire life may give him a better judgement when it comes to her emotions and behaviors. Thanks for the input!

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I've got another question maybe you can answer about the ending scenes. When Sazed is following Vin towards the WoA he runs into Marsh who is seemingly not in complete control of himself. The way the scenes are laid out make it seem like Ruin is not yet released during this fight. If that is the case, how is he controlling Marsh? I thought that Ruin only had control over the inquisitors and other spiked individuals after he was released and could only influence them by speaking to them before that point.

[The One Who Connects]

On 3/1/2018 at 0:10 PM, marles said:

I thought that Ruin only had control over the inquisitors and other spiked individuals after he was released and could only influence them by speaking to them before that point.

That was because TLR was still alive.

On 9/10/2017 at 4:47 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I'm having a little trouble finding it, but Brandon has specifically said that "TLR kept too tight a hold on the Inquisitors for Ruin to take control of them while TLR was alive."

That is all the explaining that I think is needed. TLR was powerful enough to keep them from being taken over by a Shard(trapped as he may have been). Vin/Elend simply aren't that powerful, as Ruin demonstrates when he rips all the Koloss from Elend's control in book 3. I don't think TLR fully controlled them like the Koloss, merely came close enough that Ruin couldn't get a grip on them in his weakened state. If TLR used a Duralumin Soothing on the Inquisitors though... all bets are off.

As for why he "let" Marsh kill the other Inquisitors, I see several things that could contribute to this. Marsh was a new inquisitor, and we know TLR gave them enough autonomy to choose their own subjects to convert. Marsh may have simply been new enough that he wasn't aware of him yet. He could be distracted by the issues with Vin. He could simply have not noticed them die(he's got connections to ~50k Koloss, so I can forgive him not noticing a few lives pass away, especially given how Koloss are. A few dropping out here and there wouldn't be uncommon)

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On 3/1/2018 at 11:05 AM, marles said:

However, there are several occasions where Ruin seems to directly answer Vin's thoughts or internal questioning.

There's an example of this with Zane as well, but we've considered it as a case of unreliable narrator. Courtesy of Hwiles:

Quote

My recent revelation: Sanderson was something of a Robert Jordan and WoT fan.  Jordan had an interesting approach to narrating scenes by characters who were actively experiencing psychotic episodes, in that, he usually just wrote the scenes as if what the characters weren't insane or overtly acting strangely at all.  On several occasions, a scene would play out once from the POV of a mentally unstable character and would seem pretty ordinary and rational (minus some voices in that characters head that they usually responded to in a relatively calm manner), and then later the scene would be played out from the POV of an onlooker, who would note that the original narrator had been actively talking to the voices in their heads, screaming, laughing, crying, or staring off into space for several minutes at a time.

I now believe that Kurkistan's explanation that Zane literally said the words out loud (even though he thinks he didn't, which is why they're italicized) is probably the best theory to explain this.  People respond to Zane during his POV's in a way that clearly expresses that they regard him as absolutely bonkers, which, judging just from what Zane thinks he says and does during those scenes, is actually a little strange; he acts crazy and sounds threatening, but I don't think he does nearly enough to have earned the crystal clear reputation as a madman that he seems to possess.  I'd guess that most, if not all, of his conversations with Ruin happen out loud.

This won't be the answer for every occurrence of this, but she's been spiked since she was a child. After that long with Ruin's voice, I'd say her being a little off-kilter is justified.

On 3/1/2018 at 11:05 AM, marles said:

Is there something else I'm missing that makes the voice that Vin hears in this scene make more sense?

We see that scene again in Secret History, but from a different perspective that might hold some answers. No guarantees, since I read it a while ago, but it should prove somewhat illuminating.

[marles]

Thanks for your thorough response. I hadn't really considered that TLR may have been keeping Ruin at bay from controlling spiked individuals while he was still around and haven't read enough WoB's yet to have seen the one you mention. It makes sense since Ruin is still able to talk to people while trapped that he may just not be powerful enough to wrestle away control.

I hadn't really considered that they could have actually been talking to themselves instead of just thinking the words. Next time I go through the books I'll have to pay a bit more attention to those parts. As for Secret History, I'll be sure to keep this in mind when I get to it again. I have only gone through that once I think and it's been awhile so I don't really remember how that part plays out.