MountainKing

[OB] The Fourth Oath, the Oath of Abandoment

38 posts in this topic

The Fourth Ideals of all orders that follow the regular oath system, is about when to stop following your ideals.

Quote

My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people? —From drawer 10-12, sapphire

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 823). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.


“Jasnah,” Ivory said, becoming full size as he stepped free of her collar. He leaned down. “Jasnah, this is right. Somehow it is.” He seemed completely stunned. “It is not what makes sense, yet it is still right. How. How is this thing?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 1132-1133). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

This Windrunner has trouble understanding the fourth oath because it goes against protecting. (Note: The next sentence only works when assuming the elsecaller oaths are about being logical and Jasnah swearing four out of five oaths) Ivory tells Jasnah that she did the right thing when saving Renarin, even when it goes against the logic of the known fact they known. Renarin is bonded to a corrupted spren and is probably using voidbinding. The skybreakers Ideal of Crusade(4th Oath) can teach the Skybreaker when to have compassion on those that break the law, which they need for the fifth oath, Ideal of Law. The windruuner need to know when not to protect, so he can protect others. Jasnah needs to know that logic, do to lack of not knowing everything, can't be the only deciding factor. The Radiants need restraints.

 

 

 

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I'm with you except on the Skybreakers. How does their crusade fit into this?

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Interesting theory, and I think you might be on to something. That makes perfect sense why Kaladin would have trouble swearing. He's too proud and tries to be superman & save/protect everyone.

Sidenote: Are there any current Radiants on Roshar who have sworn the 4th ideal? I had assumed that Nin was up to the 5th ideal, but now I am re-thinking.

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Jasnah is implied to be 4th or possibly even 5th.  Nale definitely is 5th.  Shallan should also be on 4.

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Nale has definitely claimed* to be fifth ideal:

Quote

"Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardblade appeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order."

*: Not saying I don't believe him, just being clear about what we know and how we know it.

Edited by digitalbusker
Footnote
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The Skybreakers' Ideal of Crusade lets the Skybreaker choose anything that is against the law to Crusade against. The Skybreaker would choose something close to him, probably something that stirs his emotions, inserting bias into his judgement. When performing his Crusade he would have to investigate those who he was targeting. He would learn why they did their crimes and might start to feel empathy for them, and realize that the known law does not work for all circumstances. This would prepare them for The Fifth Ideal. Also this one was a stretch, my main point is that the 4th oath is an oath of abandonment only for Oaths that follow normal oath progression, and the Skybreaker part was that their oath might fit in this argument.

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I agree, and I think this is actually true for the Lightweavers in a more subtle way. Not ideals but Cryptics are drawn to Lightweavers because of their lives. Shallan's fourth ideal was a particularly difficult one for her to confront and forced her to stop lying about her pas. 

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7 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I agree, and I think this is actually true for the Lightweavers in a more subtle way. Not ideals but Cryptics are drawn to Lightweavers because of their lives. Shallan's fourth ideal was a particularly difficult one for her to confront and forced her to stop lying about her pas.

Ok so we suspect Shallan has already sworn the 4th ideal... Do we know for sure which ideal gives Shardplate?

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Very interesting theory. In fact, I recall thinking along similar lines when Adolin tells Kaladin to leave him in Shadesmar. Adolin was urging Kaladin to give it his all and fight his way through to the oathgate and perhaps escape. Yet doing so with a man with a messy gut wound is practically impossible. Kaladin's own nature as a surgeon and mentality as a Windrunner is completely against this. 

I also recall Kaladin's father (blanking on name, I know, unacceptable) telling young Kal that he must learn to let go. As far as I recall, Kaladin never quite got over that one. 

So I am uncertain where  the word "abandonment" is proper here. A wordier way to say it is just to learning to let go of your ideals so long as it is right. To know the struggle of living by them.

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

The Fourth Ideals of all orders that follow the regular oath system, is about when to stop following your ideals.

This Windrunner has trouble understanding the fourth oath because it goes against protecting. (Note: The next sentence only works when assuming the elsecaller oaths are about being logical and Jasnah swearing four out of five oaths) Ivory tells Jasnah that she did the right thing when saving Renarin, even when it goes against the logic of the known fact they known. Renarin is bonded to a corrupted spren and is probably using voidbinding. The skybreakers Ideal of Crusade(4th Oath) can teach the Skybreaker when to have compassion on those that break the law, which they need for the fifth oath, Ideal of Law. The windruuner need to know when not to protect, so he can protect others. Jasnah needs to know that logic, do to lack of not knowing everything, can't be the only deciding factor. The Radiants need restraints.

So, yes @MountainKing I agree with you. 

 

9 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

Ok so we suspect Shallan has already sworn the 4th ideal... Do we know for sure which ideal gives Shardplate?

I had an impression that 5th ideal gives shardplate. If Jasnah is indeed 4th (when did this happen??) and if 4th gives shardplate, she would be mad not to use during OB battle at Thaylen city. I doubt it uses as much Stormlight as the dead spren plate anyway. But this is just a hunch. So I vote 5th ideal for plate. 

Edited by Moonrise
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8 minutes ago, Moonrise said:

I had an impression that 5th ideal gives shardplate. If Jasnah is indeed 4th (when did this happen??) and if 4th gives shardplate, she would be mad not to use during OB battle at Thaylen city. I doubt it uses as much Stormlight as the dead spren plate anyway. But this is just a hunch. So I vote 5th ideal for plate. 

Many people think that when whoever had that pov saw strange shapes around Jasnah that that was Jasnah dismissing her plate.

Edited by MountainKing
Fixing Grammar
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I always thought that the KR would receive a Ryshadium after their final ideal.

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Just found this:

"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" -from drawer 10-12, sapphire

So swearing the 4th ideal grants armor (shardplate)? I don't see why different orders would earn plate on different ideals, so let's assume it's 4th ideal across the board. That means that Shallan has only spoken the 3rd ideal. The only confirmed 4th ideal & up Radiant would be Nin. I could also see Jasnah being 4th ideal and keeping her plate a secret. Also, I feel like the books said somewhere that the higher ideal you are, the more efficient you are with stormlight.

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Ah, okay. Thanks! In my defense, I only read OB once and on ebook. I am going from memory :/  Don't know why I would ever assume otherwise!

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Shallan is at four by the end of WoR. 

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

How many oaths can a Radiant swear?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan was a step higher than Kaladin.

source

 

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I think that Lightweavers have four major truths that correspond with the other orders oath, and then an unlimited amount of minor truths. Or it could be that the truths must be admitted, accepted, and deal with all the personal problems that come with the truth before the full power up is given.

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Shallan may well have her plate already but not be able to use it consciously. 

In the final battle of Oathbringer when Jasnah comes to get her, both Shallan and Veil are fake, the real one is Radiant and we know that earlier in the battle Radiant was wearing plate.

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41 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Shallan may well have her plate already but not be able to use it consciously. 

In the final battle of Oathbringer when Jasnah comes to get her, both Shallan and Veil are fake, the real one is Radiant and we know that earlier in the battle Radiant was wearing plate.

Wait, where are you getting that from?

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Maybe the "combat-oriented" orders (WR; DB; SW etc.) get their plate at Ideal Nr. 4, while "civil-oriented" orders (SB; LW; EC, maybe ED, TW) get theirs at Ideal Nr. 5? For all we know some orders might get their plate before their blade or not get plate at all.

I mean, no two groups of Radiants think exactly alike, even the same surge works different for different orders, and the structure of ideals is completely different for WRs and LWs, for example, so why should Plate be consistent between orders?

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3 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Wait, where are you getting that from?

I don't have my book with me but when Shallan and Veil puff into stormlight and Radiant is left she's described as wearing garnet Shardplate. (from my memory)

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1 minute ago, Agent34 said:

I don't have my book with me but when Shallan and Veil puff into stormlight and Radiant is left she's described as wearing garnet Shardplate. (from my memory)

I don't have the book either, but I very much doubt I'd both have read past that without realizing it, and that no one on the forum mentioned it in three months.

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28 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I don't have the book either, but I very much doubt I'd both have read past that without realizing it, and that no one on the forum mentioned it in three months.

When the illusion of veil first appears beside Shallan, shes in Garnet Shardplate. At the end of the battle I don't believe that's the case. 

That said, with the ways in which Shallan has fractured herself, I do think that she has Plate available and just doesn't know how to use it. And I think that Radiant does. Because Shallan is a train wreck. 

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48 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I don't have the book either, but I very much doubt I'd both have read past that without realizing it, and that no one on the forum mentioned it in three months.

Here are the quotes in question. 

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

And later. 

Quote

“Here,” Radiant said, tired, stumbling to her feet. She was the one Jasnah could feel.

It has definitely been mentioned here before. It's just that there's some disagreement over whether the Shardplate is a Lightweaving or real. 

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17 hours ago, Roocifer said:

Ok so we suspect Shallan has already sworn the 4th ideal... Do we know for sure which ideal gives Shardplate?

The Blade and Armor may be gained at different Ideals for different orders. For example, we have Shallan at the fourth oath and no shardplate(some argue she doesn't know about it, but when Kaladin approaches the fourth Ideal windspren are attracted to him) while its been confirmed windrunners gain their armor at the fourth. Additionally, we know Shallan is at the fourth, which was admiting to killing her mother. If the third oath was admitting to killing her father, than Shallan would have had her blade before the 3rd Ideal, while Kal gained his at the third. So, its not confirmed, but it may be different levels for different orders.

 

As for the fourth Windrunner oath, what if its not about abandoning(which Kal and maybe other Windrunners will see it that way) but about stepping back and letting people live their own journeys. By being overprotective of his men's lives, Kal is potentially preventing them from living their journeys and their destinations. Likely they're probably okay with this, but what about when they want to take on a mission, even if death is likely? They might be willing to sacrifice their lives for a goal, but Kal currently would not be okay with that. So the fourth oath is about respecting others decisions, their journeys, and their destinations.

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2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The Blade and Armor may be gained at different Ideals for different orders. For example, we have Shallan at the fourth oath and no shardplate(some argue she doesn't know about it, but when Kaladin approaches the fourth Ideal windspren are attracted to him) while its been confirmed windrunners gain their armor at the fourth. Additionally, we know Shallan is at the fourth, which was admiting to killing her mother. If the third oath was admitting to killing her father, than Shallan would have had her blade before the 3rd Ideal, while Kal gained his at the third. So, its not confirmed, but it may be different levels for different orders.

I thought that killing her father was not an oath, but that she was just admitting it to Kaladin. And during her teen years her bonds regressed, Pattern and her were bonded during her childhood

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Regarding whole "which ideal gives what":

 

- Kaladin used Surges and Stormlight before first Ideal, got shardblade on 3rd, supposedly will get plate on 4th.

- Shallan had blade long long before speaking Truth that allowed her to soulcast (and returned Pattern proper sentience), since then said one more Truth that supposedly put her at 4th Ideal. Which would make her blade avaible somewhere betweeen 0 and 2nd Ideal

- Dalinar was not supposed to ever have a blade, but managed to form one while on 2nd Ideal, and apparently got ability to form Honor singularity from 3rd Ideal

 

So yeah, either we assume that all orders have different progression path, or that certain individuals just can do stuff they shouldn't be able to considering their Ideals progress, and that displayed abilities are not always indication of spoken Ideals.

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