March 10 - Kuiper - The Wasting Room, part 2

[Kuiper]

Here's the second installment of The Wasting Room, which consists of chapters 3 and 4.  Your feedback is appreciated--what worked, what didn't, and what parts just didn't make sense.

 

Brief summary of what has happened so far:

 

In chapter 1, the unnamed protagonist uses his magical abilities as an air adept to eavesdrop on a meeting between two suspicious men, and becomes witness to a murder when one of the men double-crosses the other.

 

In chapter 2, the protagonist meets with an information broker named Eril, and learns the identities of the men he saw earlier.  The victim was a nobleman named Lord Rolondo, and the killer is Cole, a charismatic criminal who is new to the city.  Protagonist requests that Eril arrange a meeting with Cole, under the pretense of recruiting Cole for a criminal operation.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Kuiper

[styn]

Its nice to see a well done first person. The submission was dialogue heavy, but that's hardly a bad thing. The beats were on point and gave context without being overly flowery or distracting. The pacing is moving along at a steady if overly convoluted way. I'm not disinterested by the complexity yet, I'm just hoping that every aspect of these transactions comes with a nice payout at the end.

There might have been like one spelling and/or grammar error that I noticed, I only even bring this up because I don't really have anything constructive to add. Overall the piece is highly refined and was a joy to read. I didn't read the first submission so I'm a tad behind the power curve as far as being able to determine the level of magic in the world. I did get the impression that Eril was flooding the building with magic, so if that's what happened it was nicely executed without burdening the readers with needless detail.

I'm in a wait and see with the story right now. You're laying a bunch of foundation in an engaging way. I blew through the submission quickly and am anticipating the next direction the plot will twist. So far you've got my interest, but by building my expectations with all the boxes you're having your protagonist check, you stand to disappoint me if this doesn't end up epic. I also think Makani is arrogant and potentially a sociopath, but I wouldn't recommend changing anything.

[Mandamon]

I'll second the point on first-person.  It's not my favorite tense to read in, but this is done well enough that I don't notice it too much.

 

pg 3:  Is all this preparation really necessary for them to talk?  I didn't get the impression the flooding was magical, rather that it was some mechanical action.  Did I miss something or is that correct?

 

pg 4-5: There's a lot of expository dialogue here to tell what's going on.  I think it can be condensed to be less info-dumpy and give more hints than full explanations.

 

pg 5: okay--here's an explanation of all the preparation.  Still seems a little excessive just to have a private conversation.  Didn't they say aether is pretty rare?  The chances of this meeting being overheard are pretty slim.

 

The repetitions of "greenhorn" get a little annoying.  He knows Cole's name.

 

You got my interest with the first two chapters, and this carried it to some extent.  I can tell there's a big con planned, but I don't really know what it is.  Sort of getting a vibe of "Thief."  As these last two chapters were all preparation, I'm hoping the next couple chapters will have some action.

[Robinski]

I enjoyed these chapters more than 1 and 2. I still had some specific issues (below), but I liked the dynamic between the characters, I'm happy enough with where I think the plot is going. I think wordiness, especially in some dialogue, is still an issue. The formality and wordiness fitting well when they are acting up to the abettor, for me serves to highlight its inappropriateness when talking to others.

 

On the water thing (below), Styn notes that it could be that magic is involved. That might deal with some of my logistical issues, but you don’t say Eril uses magic, so we can’t assume that. I'm with both of them on the first person – for me it's well done.

 

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Page 1 – It’s a good opening, I'm re-engaged in the story straight away after a fair gap since the first instalment, however quite early on (in fact when the first person opens their mouth), I can feel an old issue rearing its head, namely the wordiness of the dialogue. I won’t labour it, but I might drop in a couple of examples as we go – here’s the first one.

 

Page 1 – ‘Do you remember what I said to you when we last met in the slums?’ – Alternative > ‘Remember what I said in the slums?’ – is half the length and, I think, more natural and realistic as dialogue. I can accept adding words to stress meaning, for example ‘Do you remember what I said to you in the slums?’, but that’s still less wordy and formal-sounding than the original question.

 

Page 1 – When there is only one female ‘in shot’, I think you could use ‘she’ more, as the frequent repetition of ‘Eril’ breaks up in the flow IMHO, particularly noticeable at the top part of Page 2.

 

Page 1 – Why would he be surprised to encounter a man in a dirty apron in a blacksmith’s shop? I’d be surprised not to – unless I’ve missed something like the time of day.

 

Page 2 – ‘As my feet touch down on the floor, I question whether the soles of my shoes are thick enough to insulate my feet from the blistering floor beneath them.’ [29 words + repetition of ‘floor’] Alternative > ‘Reaching the floor, I feel that the heat might burn through my shoes.’ [13 words] I'm hesitant to pick up on style – not my place some might say – but I really feel that your writing could flow much better with some work on this area.

 

Page 3 – What is ‘lean water’?

 

Page 3 – Hmm, this thing about the water brought me right out of the story. I see later that the basement chamber is 10’ by 10’ (3m x 3m) plus the size of the forge, so say 5m x 5m = 25m² x height of say 2.3m (6 foot ~ 1.8m), that gives a volume of 57.5m³. When Eril says she’s going to ‘flood the floor upstairs’ with ‘just a few inches, I'm picturing 6”, maybe 10” – if it was a foot, she would say ‘a foot’. So, assuming 10” = 0.254m depth, therefore – to fill the basement – the area of upstairs would need to be 226m². That’s 15m x 15m – a pretty big area.

 

It’s going to take a long time to flood the floor from a domestic supply – okay, it’s a forge, I’ll give you that, there’s probably a water tank somewhere, but the flow rate will still be limited, 15 litres per second would not be unreasonable. The basement volume of 57.5m³ is equivalent to 57,500 litres. At 15 l/s it will take 3,833 seconds to produce 57,500 litres, which equates to just over an hour, and probably a similar time to drain. Also, is the floor designed to be flooded like that? Eril will need to block off the bottom of the doors to the building and any drains that exist upstairs.

 

‘What’s your point?’ I hear you ask, well, apart from going into the problem in an obsessive amount of detail because I'm an engineer (All your drainage questions answered – just ask Hawkedup), the logistics brought me to a crashing halt when reading that part. It just struck me that it would be so much easier, and reasonable to say, that a forge would have a stone floor to carry the extra weight of wagons, horses, anvils, forge, stores of metal, etc. etc. that would probably need to be accommodated up top. Seems to me the water part isn’t relevant and is over-complicated.

 

Another issue, I think, is the forge downstairs – why? And it would produce significant ventilation issues, AND, if Eril is making the basement air tight, they could suffocate quite easily without an air source because of the CO₂ and CO produced by the forge. Sorry – rant over.

 

Page 4 – Cole talks like a lawyer sometimes.

 

Page 5 – ‘...stay cognizant of that fact...’ = remember

 

Page 5 – Why wouldn’t he tell Cole if he was a fire adept?

 

Page 5 – I don’t understand what difference it makes if the meeting’s 5 minutes or 10, or how anything different can be read into such a small difference in the time of the meetings. Here in the UK we can talk about the weather for 5 minute or 10 minutes, actually probably closer to an hour.

 

Page 10 – I'm not sure you can have a ‘slight grin’.

 

Page 11 – At times, the interplay between Cole and the protagonist is very good, however there are moments of very wordy exposition (i.e. info dump).

 

Page 13 – You refer to the estate as if it is only the house, but the estate would include all of the grounds as well (assuming that there are grounds). I would replace the word ‘estate’ where appropriate with ‘mansion’ or something like that, so that the reader gets the sense when you are only referring to the building.

 

Page 13 – To me there is something a bit off with the terminology. Why would the Halan Estate have a negotiation chamber – surely, they would just have a drawing room or reception room. There are some other notes like this which, for me, don’t quite ring true when measured against reality.

 

Page 14 – ‘He...likes to go fast.’ – This line really tickled me. It has always been thus... excellent.

 

Page 14/15 – The wordy in me gained the upper hand (Oh no, relapse! – JP, Andy, Mandamon, I need an intervention!!) ...when I read your (fictional) account of the fate of Lord Rolondo, I very much enjoyed that. The account is rather grandiose, but there is such theatricality to Cole’s delivery and the earnest attention of Lord Hannal’s abettor, that it swept me along – nicely done.

 

Page 16/17 – I enjoyed the exchange with Lord Hannal’s abettor more than earlier sections, because of the logistical problems that I had with those, but the formal style of your dialogue, which is often out of place in conversations between the conspirators, felt much more at home in this later exchange.

[Mandamon]

 

Page 3 – Hmm, this thing about the water brought me right out of the story. 

 

I'm glad you tackled that one, Robinski.  I thought something seemed fishy, but was too lazy to do the math.

 

I have to say I enjoyed the account of Lord Rolando as well.  I'm not adverse to wordiness (currently reading WoR...) when it's done right and has a reason.  This had a reason to be wordy.  It was a fabricated tale to persuade someone else.  The more detailed and extravagant, the better.

[manaheim]

Hi.

 

First, definitely an engaging and interesting story. Despite the issues I found, I was reading right along and am definitely invested, so that's great.

 

The writing is nice and smooth, and you handled the first person present tense well, which is a hard thing to do IMO. I personally don't like first person present, but I found myself adapting to it quickly.

 

Most of the concerns are items that either didn't make sense to me given the mechanics of the world I know, or were things that felt illogical or unlikely given either the circumstances or the characters in play. I haven't read all of your stuff, so it's possible that some of this is just related to my not understanding your world, but I'll call them out and you can ignore them as you see fit.

 

Now my concerns...

 

"I find myself surprised to be greeted by the sight of a man clad in a filthy black apron." - Minor, but why is he surprised? It's a smithy, clearly the main character here is experienced. So having a smith in the smithy seems normal enough.

 

Minor, but on the top of page two you say "keyring" three times within 5 sentences.

 

On page two, "As we descend the ladder, I begin to see why..." I don't know why he would be surprised that a smithy would be hot.

 

Again on page two, "insulate my feet from the blistering floor"... I'm having a hard time picturing a fire hot enough that it would make a stone floor hot enough to endanger your feet. Same problem with the walls later on where they mention their hands would be burned by the walls. If the fire was hot enough to make the walls dangerous, I'd think it would be impossible for them to survive in that environment for more than a couple seconds.

 

Pg 3. The few inches of water up there filling up the room down here. I think someone else mentioned this, but it would take a MASSIVELY large upstairs for a few inches of water to fill a room downstairs.

 

Pg 4. "as the water continues to flow above us". It wasn't clear to me that Eril had finished leaving, the door had been closed, and water had started, so the water "continuing" to flow was a bit jarring.

 

Right after that you explain the room in greater detail. I think you would want to set this scene when we first walk in, and not so much time afterwards.

 

Bottom of 5. I found myself envisioning what I would think of a meeting that lasted 5 minutes vs. one that lasted 10, and I didn't feel like I'd think much differently about it. 5 minutes vs. an hour.... sure, though even then I'm not sure what it would tell me of VALUE about the meeting, other than whatever the topic was, it took a while to discuss.

 

Pg 6. I didn't understand why Lady Bastielle being lucky and eccentric was in opposition to her being daft or not. I also didn't understand why it was considered daft to be rich and have a bunch of valuable items, and why the conclusion there would be to sell off the least valuable of these (giving her more money). The logic behind the premise is confusing for me, so it feels forced.

 

Pg 7. So if I understand this correctly, he's going to sneak in at night at some point prior to the auction, hide a bunch of stuff in the coffin, and then buy the coffin at auction with all the stuff in it. This seems like a bad, overcomplicated, plan with any number of different ways of failing. First, a break-in and theft would result in an investigation, which would likely include a search. It seems unlikely someone wouldn't open a coffin to see if there was anything in it.  Second, it banks on the fact that the weight of the items in the coffin is not enough to prompt someone to open it to look inside at some point between the time the theft occurs and the time that the coffin is handed off to the buyer, which seems unlikely.  Third, anyone buying the coffin would be almost guaranteed to want to open it before purchasing it. The buyer NOT opening it might be suspicious, but the other possibility is someone ELSE trying to buy the item at auction, at which point THEY are likely to open it.

 

Pg 8. "I take another step forward, putting myself closer to Cole-and the hearth behind him". Seems to me you should have set this up the first time he stepped towards him, so we know he is moving him closer with each step, and not just this one. Better increases your tension.

 

Same paragraph- "comply" felt strange here. Wouldn't he be in a position to accept the contract? Not comply with it? Comply implies priori agreement and signature.

 

I don't entirely buy Cole's attitude. He is lavishing on the compliments and it's pretty obvious. I would think the main character would be wise to this and call him out on it, or that he just wouldn't try it.

 

Pg 9. Why is Cole accepting this deal when he was just pretty much told that he might not get paid?

 

Also on 9, they shake, which seems to me a formalizing of the agreement, but then the main character says we have to discuss some details before we formalize the agreement.

 

Pg. 10. The guy behind the door goes from being very rude, snatching papers away, etc. (btw, the rude doorman thing is a little cliché) and then says "Please wait", which seems awfully polite.

 

Pg. 11. Earlier in the chapter you said that Cole would be impersonating the Rolondo nobleman, but wearing a mask so that no one will know that he is not the real one.  Issues with people knowing voices, aside... Now you are having him show up as a Rolondo nobleman, where he is not wearing a mask. The earlier thing implied that other people would know an impostor, so I found myself wondering how they could boldly walk up to another noble house and pretend to be the guy without concern.

 

There is a lot of exposition. Someone else mentioned this. I know you're trying to give us the story, but I think you could leave more to the reader to wonder about or fill in over time. It gets particularly heavy by the end of page 11 where Cole is asking "But what about such and such..." a few times.

 

Pg. 12 "Now the first rule..." Technically this is the second rule. The first rule was "we play by Hannal's rules, or you're out."  Also... "barring them from leaving with such knowledge" seems weird. How are they going to do that? How are they going to know when they have GAINED such knowledge. I think the real answer here is that they're going to deny them the ability to know anything they don't want to know, which I think they would just state as "Of course, you'll be blindfolded at all times while walking through the house. Don't try to sneak a peak, or we'll kill you on the spot."

 

Pg 15. The whole story with Lord Rolondo is confusing. First, he likes to ride fast... but he likes to let someone else do the driving... but then he decides to take over. It's a little back and forth.

 

Second, he gets into this accident. We know quite a bit about it, so we know someone survived to tell the tale, and we expect it to be the servant who lived because we're being told it's a great tragedy. Though, that seems weird because later on Cole is going to pretend to be this guy. So it turns out that it is actually Lord Rolondo that lives... and the tragedy is a rich man losing a carriage and some horses... and he doesn't want anyone to know because it will make the party moody? 

 

So they're going to have this shadowy dealing to purchase a new carriage and horses ... because they don't want anyone to find out? And everyone knows the number one rule of keeping things under wraps ... is not telling anyone... so why is he explaining all this? The BEST thing (assuming we buy all the other stuff) would be to quietly buy a new carriage from out of town with no explanation to the seller.

 

I find this a little hard to swallow.. I think you need to come up with a better reason for them being here. I don't think it would be too hard, either. The driver was the underage daughter of some other noble house and they were having an affair in these fast rides or something.  But again, then, he would never tell them.

 

Pg 16. "It will be shared only when..." There is no time at which this man needs to share any of this information with anyone to complete this deal. He is experienced and should know that, and know not to say that, and the main character and Cole should be experienced enough to react to the man saying it and yell at him for even suggesting it. (ignoring the fact that they never should have told him)

 

"...who was a dear friend". If the driver was a dear friend it would make sense to reveal this earlier on. It would also contribute to the event being a tragedy, which would help a little.

 

When the main character excuses Cole... this caught my attention because Cole has been doing the talking. Particularly since the main character has set himself up as the "background guy"- not the front man... I have been assuming the main character has been basically acting as Cole's second, so him excusing the front man seems first unwise, and second, very unlikely to not be noticed by the abettor as peculiar.

 

The lord's absence... I'm confused. We know where the lord is. He's not absent. He's out boozing. This implies the lord has gone missing (Which he, in actuality, has... so that throws me off as a reader because I'm not sure what the main character is doing)

 

Is the main character a woman? Something in the dialogue implies that she is. This also makes me realize how little we know of the character, her name, what she looks like, etc. It was a little jarring as the entire time I was picturing this person as a man.

 

There's a line "You're not just an abettor are you". Is that speech? No quotes, but it read like speech.

 

The last two paragraphs had me totally confused. I didn't know who was talking and couldn't work out why what was said would be attributed to either party.

Edited March 17, 2014 by manaheim

[manaheim]

Hm... that's a wall of text. I hope it's not too much.  As I said, I'm definitely interested. I wouldn't have been reading so carefully if I wasn't.

[Kuiper]

Thanks very much for your feedback, everyone.  There are definitely some things that will require significant revamp in revision, mostly stuff related to logistics which I definitely agree are problematic at certain points, especially in chapter 3 with the flooding sequence.  There are also some things that I hoped people would pick up on that I will probably make more explicit in the rewrite.

 

I apologize for not addressing all questions and points directly—I'm sort of trying to intentionally avoid addressing specific things right now, since I'd like to see people's feedback on each part without me interupting between chapters to explain/justify the world and its workings.  The next installment is shaping up to be the last, so once I've submitted that, I'll be able to speak more candidly about my intent with certain sections and answer specific questions people have had.  Hopefully the upcoming chapters themselves will also help to clarify certain things as well.

[hawkedup]

If you don't mind me asking, what made you decide to go with first person present? Like the others said, you obviously have a good handle on it, but I'm just curious simply because I might think there could be a better way to go, but not if you have a solid reason that is integral to your book.

[Kuiper]

I decided to go with first person present narration because I believe it conveys a sense of immediacy and increases the tension of the action scenes.  My own experience is that third-person limited perspective is great for telling larger stories with multiple viewpoints, but as I'm telling a smaller story with a single protagonist I wanted to be able to focus on that single character's thoughts and perceptions.  I'm not trying to tell a grand epic here; I'm aiming for something closer to thriller pacing.