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Mraize's Trophies


Kyzkle

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Brandon asked me what color the sand was when I brought it up at a signing. I couldn't remember, but I saw it's pale when I checked later. In White Sand it's either white when powered and black when drained. I don't know what to make of the fact that it's pale.

I think Mraize is a Herald as well as a Worldhopper. He's been tortured.

Edited by AhoyMatey
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i guessed in an earlier post that the pink crystal is an aether and that the person writing to hoid mentions a dead gem so maybe its an aether that hoid discarded, also gives credence to the theory that hoid is connected to the ghostbloods somehow

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Mraize isn't Hoid. They act nothing alike. Plus, Shallan has seen both of them, and didn't notice any similarities between them. (Although I'm sure they're both really good at disguises, when they want to be.)

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the woman in the mask is the woman Hoid mentioned as being near his age, though.

Correction: Shallan directly compares Mraize to Hoid (the cheerful messenger). I find this an intentional counterpoint, so I still agree with the rest of your assessment: they're far from the same person.

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Who is Mraize? Is he Hoid? Is he working with or against Hoid?

 

He's not Hoid. Didn't Hoid tell Kaladin that he was on Roshar looking up an old friend, but ended up spending most of his time avoiding said old friend?

 

Since Hoid is the only other character I know of who jumps around the Cosmere, it makes sense that someone else who has a collection of items is the old friend he refers to.

 

I would say this puts Mraize and Hoid at odds with each other.

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It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the woman in the mask is the woman Hoid mentioned as being near his age, though.

 

I think the consensus is that Hoid was referring to Cultivation--that was certainly my reading of it. My guess is that these other worldhoppers don't go quite as far back; still plenty of time to acquire a decent collection, though.

 

It does seem curious to me that these shardic (or at least cosmere-important) items would be on display where untrustworthy contacts like Veil could see and potentially damage them. That suggests to me that these really are trophies of past exploits, not powerful items being gathered for a long term goal. (Unless Brandon just wanted to cameo some artifacts, which is also possible.)

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It does seem curious to me that these shardic (or at least cosmere-important) items would be on display where untrustworthy contacts like Veil could see and potentially damage them. That suggests to me that these really are trophies of past exploits, not powerful items being gathered for a long term goal. (Unless Brandon just wanted to cameo some artifacts, which is also possible.)

 

I think that it's a trophy wall and a test.  If a worldhopper sees the trophy wall, they might recognize the artifacts and their reaction would hint at their status.

I wouldn't rule out their future use because they're not powerful (which if the flower is a Tear of Edgli like we think it is, it certainly isn't).  A key isn't powerful, but you can use one to open a powerful door.  But I do think they're just trophy symbols.

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I think the person Hoid was referring to avoiding in tWoK was Odium. 

He's not Hoid. Didn't Hoid tell Kaladin that he was on Roshar looking up an old friend, but ended up spending most of his time avoiding said old friend?

 

Since Hoid is the only other character I know of who jumps around the Cosmere, it makes sense that someone else who has a collection of items is the old friend he refers to.

 

I would say this puts Mraize and Hoid at odds with each other.

He has this to say about Odium in WoR (ch 67):

"I will do what I can to help," Wit said, and for that reason, I must go.  I cannot risk too much, because if he finds me, then I become nothing - a soul shredded and broken into pieces that cannot be reassembled.  What I do here is more dangerous than you could ever know." 

He turned to go.

"Wit," Dalinar called.

"Yes?"

"If who finds you?"

"The one you fight, Dalinar Kholin. The father of hatred."

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Most people say Mraize isn't Hoid, but the chapter where Mraize is introduced has Hoid's icon and Shallan thought of Hoid when she first saw Mraize:

 

 

Of the half-dozen or so people in the room, one drew her attention most. Straight-backed, with jetblack hair, he wore white clothing and stood in front of the room’s crackling hearth. He reminded her of someone, a man from her childhood. The messenger with the smiling eyes, the enigma who knew so much. Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty. . . .

 

He explained that:

 

 

I am not angry that she did not retrieve the information from Jasnah. I hired the hunter I felt best for the task, and I understood the risks. Kholin is

dead, and Tyn was to achieve that at all other costs.

 

In the epilogue Hoid told Jasnah:

 

 

I know things that you do not, and I think you might actually know some that I do not. That gives us what is called synergy. 

 

He knew she was alive and went to get the information he needed. The best way to get whatever information he needs from her would be to persuade her to tell him.

 

Hoid told Dalinar their goals are very different and he wouldn't mind letting the world burn if he could get what he wanted.

 

I am not convinced Hoid and Mraize aren't the same person. Sure, there isn't absolute prove that Hoid=Mraize, but there are enough similarities to consider the possibility.

Edited by Aleksiel
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I am not convinced Hoid and Mraize aren't the same person. Sure, there isn't absolute prove that Hoid=Mraize, but there are enough similarities to consider the possibility.

 

There's a fair bit of stuff to explain away in order to accept Hoid=Mraize, and there's very little reason to tie them together (pretty much the only 'evidence' is Shallan's comparison). It seems unlikely that this is the case.

 

One of the missions Shallan gets from the Ghostbloods is to investigate 'Taln'. If Hoid=Mraize, this doesn't make a lot of sense. Now it's possible to handwave this away (e.g. it's just a test for Veil) but it's an odd thing for Hoid to ask Veil to do.

 

Hoid also mentions to Dalinar that he'll be disappearing shortly after the 4 Shardbearer duel (presumably to head to where he'll be in the Epilogue). Mraize is in Urithiru around that time. Again, this can be handwaved (Hoid can teleport...or project images...or something, or timing shenanigans) but it's another unnecessary complexity to make the theory work.

 

The statements about Jasnah's research doesn't mean much. We know the Ghostbloods are looking for Jasnah's research all the way from TWoK. By the end of WoR, that research is pretty much out of date, as Jasnah recognizes in the Epilogue; her additional information has to be presumed to be something she got out of her Elsecalling (something which presumably wasn't a factor before WoR).

Also, it's not like Jasnah is completely unwilling to talk to Hoid as Wit. If he really wanted to know something, the simplest solution would have been to just ask her. That's exactly what he does in the Epilogue. Why doesn't he do that earlier? Because she didn't have such information, making the Ghostblood connection about some other information entirely.

 

This may not be conclusive proof, but it seems clear that the conclusion Hoid=Mraize requires a lot of contorting to make it work (Hoid and Mraize are split personalities!).

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Well, Mraize had Veil to investigate Amaram, later on Hoid insulted him openly and basically accused him of having the blood of innocent on his hands. Yes, Kaladin accused Amaram of killing his friends before it, but Veil also delivered information to Mraize before Wit's confrontation with Amaram. I'm not saying it's perfect prove, but there is a lot of foreshadowing.

Edited by Aleksiel
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Hoid really doesn´t seem like someone that would work with a large oranisation. Even more so if it is a group of thieves and murderers. Although, if he does would that make the whole of Arleon´s beggars Ghostbloods?

Mraize on the other hand looks like someone that would just present valuables out in the open as trophies. He does give me a "The hunt is more important than the game" impression. And I wouldn´t be suprised if he wants someone to steal from him just so he can hunt him down. Afterall, everyone that has the galls to steal from him and isn´t caught imediatly must at the very least be a little bit awesome.

 

Well, Mraize had Veil to investigate Amaram, later on Hoid insulted him openly and basically accused him of having the blood of innocent on his hands. Yes, Kaladin accused Amaram of killing his friends before it, but Veil also delivered information to Mraize before Wit's confrontation with Amaram. I'm not saying it's perfect prove, but there is a lot of foreshadowing.

Given that Mraize also knows what T is up to, my guess is that he had a general idea what Amaram is up to and just wanted details, like the maps.

Granted Hoid having his own secret organisation to war the 17th Shard would be rather cool.

 

While we are on the topic of Mraize and Amaram. Didn´t he say something like: "His live is owned by someone else." Implying that he knows someone that wants Amaram dead. My first thought was that he wanted to corupt Kaladin by having him kill Amaram but in hindsight the whole secret organisation mambo gives more than enough reason for why someone might want to kill him.

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i definitely don't think Hoid=Mraize. However, i do think that Mraize is a worldhopper or is connected with those who are. he seems to be the foil for Hoid's character actually. Hoid is working to make sure that Odium is stopper, maybe Mraize is part of the group trying to hunt down Hoid and stop him. In any case, its going to be interesting to see what happens if and when they do cross paths. 

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  • 11 months later...

Remember, too, that Mraize is not the expert. He's a student. He refers to his babsk.

 

I see it differently, as does my babsk.

 

And Iyatil admits that she is Mraize's teacher.

 

“Your master knows more about this,” Shallan said, “than he is telling me.”

“My master?” Iyatil asked.
“Mraize.”
The woman laughed. “You mistake. He is not my master. He is my student.”
“In what?” Shallan asked.
Iyatil stared at her with a level gaze and gave no reply.

 

Hoid's teacher is dead (see the first paragraphs of LoP). While it could be that Iyatil is the woman around his own age, that really has to refer to Shardholders, who are the ones we know are Hoid's age. 

 

 

Edit: I accidentally said "shardbearers." Thanks to Argent for correcting me.

Edited by IAmTheBeard
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This is why I love Brandon's books so much. Without reading all the cosmere books Shallan's observations would have been just another couple sentences in a book. Instead it's a fun Easter egg hunt for fans. 

 

I think I know them all now and agree with what everyone speculates only one a little questionable is the crystal but the Liar guess makes sense. 

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i definitely don't think Hoid=Mraize. However, i do think that Mraize is a worldhopper or is connected with those who are. he seems to be the foil for Hoid's character actually. Hoid is working to make sure that Odium is stopper, maybe Mraize is part of the group trying to hunt down Hoid and stop him. In any case, its going to be interesting to see what happens if and when they do cross paths.

I like the idea of Hoid and Mraize being opposed forces. If that is the case then I'd say Hoid is most likely on the side of the Skybreaker's, as that was who Helaran ran off to join and just before that, Hoid showed up at the Davar estate to deliver a message for him.

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