Trell in White Sand Vol.2

[Raykoda]

For those who haven't read volume two yet (what are you doing?), A regular dude named Trell shows up for one page, and is never seen again. 

I nearly fell off my chair when that happened.  Any ideas of what this could mean? 

[RShara]

He was in the original Prose version as well.  Since his name and the fact that he is there wasn't changed, he definitely has some significance.  Maybe he worldhops to Scadrial at some point, and founds Trelagism?

Does he have a brother named Nalt?

[Calderis]

Or maybe all the weirdness with Autonomy means Bavadin is choosing actual people (and islands) to be her avatars.

Would be weird if Autonomy is actually a multi-Vessel shard... Because my brain would be blown if Trell is both Autonomy, and not Bavadin, while Bavadin is still Autonomy... Because wth. 

/EndRampantSpeculation

[RShara]

You're making my head hurt.

[Wandering Investor]

That's  such an epic idea! Multiple vessels could explain autonomous personalities while still being Autonomy, haven't seen this one before.

 

[+Extesian]

I'll quote myself from a different thread on the same topic 

Quote

My theory since the prose was that trell has a linguistic root, for example in the word mastrell, perhaps a meaning like artisan or master, and that is both why a man has the name (like some surrnames in real life come from the occupation of an ancestor) and that the Trell that appears to be an avatar of Autonomy has that name because it is actually a noun. The fact that the character Trell has now not only been included but given more screen time makes me wonder if its more than that. But I'm still slightly fond of my theory 

Even though its nowhere near as fun as the idea of a tradie founding interplanetary religion

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

That's  such an epic idea! Multiple vessels could explain autonomous personalities while still being Autonomy, haven't seen this one before.

 

So then......how does Patji fit in with this?

 

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I'll quote myself from a different thread on the same topic 

Even though its nowhere near as fun as the idea of a tradie founding interplanetary religion

It'd be awesome, though!  Talk about rags to riches

[Wandering Investor]

Just now, RShara said:

So then......how does Patji fit in with this?

2 explanations.

The first is that the was a man named Patji that Autonomy ascended, along with other people representing the islands, and he allows the island to act as a representation of him.

The second is that not every god Autonomy plays at is an actual person. For example, one person on Sixth of the Dusk's planet was ascended, and then created/infiltrated the island religion. So there's one/several mind(s) to watch over the planet, and a larger number of gods that are worshiped.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

So then......how does Patji fit in with this?

About the same as Sel's sentient landmasses. 

[RShara]

Maybe Autonomy stole a baby greatshell from Roshar and grew it into Patji?

[Storms!]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

About the same as Sel's sentient landmasses. 

Now you're just trying to make heads spin

[Mistspren]

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emailanimal
[Brandon] must have had enough of chuckles every time someone referred to Bavadin as a "he" over the past few years.....

Brandon Sanderson
Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.
This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

Argent
There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.
I think that's hilarious.
I've been meaning to ask a similar question for a few days now, I am glad someone else did and you replied. Bavadin is now instantly super interesting to me!

Brandon Sanderson
Bavadin is awesome. One regret of finally moving on from White Sand (and doing the graphic novel, instead of doing an entire trilogy myself) is because I won't get to show her off as a character for a while. It should still happen, mind you, but I have enough on my plate right now that I just can't do it all.

Argent
Eh, it's alright. The more we wait to see her, the more practice writing you will have when you do write her, and the more awesome she will be to us Are we going to see her in White Sand first though, or elsewhere?
I've also been talking with a couple of friends about Ambition, who happens to be a Shard I love unconditionally just because of his?her? mandate. So I should ask - how tight-lipped do you intend to be with information about it? Can we prod for a little bit of trivia, or is it too early for that?

Brandon Sanderson
I'm going to be pretty tight-lipped for now. Let's at least let White Sand finish first--you will find her in there, though her touch on the story (directly) is light. She prefers to allow her personas to become the focus of attention.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3974

I actually saw Calderis reference this WoB, and I was reminded of it when I saw this thread.

Brandon says entire pantheons are worshipped with Bavadin as every member.

The archipelago with Patji is called:

The Pantheon

Probably not a coincidence. Also probably (definitely) not an original observation. 

I hope I’m doing the quoting right, I’m pretty new to this.

Anyone else thinking the entire Pantheon are lesser aspects of Autonomy in some sense?

[Calderis]

@Mistspren yeah, the patji is a shard WoB made that WoB a face-palm moment of "seriously Brandon? You flat out told us, you storming troll."

Edited February 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Shuffel]

On 2/22/2018 at 1:25 PM, RShara said:

He was in the original Prose version as well.  Since his name and the fact that he is there wasn't changed, he definitely has some significance.  Maybe he worldhops to Scadrial at some point, and founds Trelagism?

Does he have a brother named Nalt?

I was listening to the Well of Ascension, I believe I heard there is also a Kenton street in Luthedel, coincidence?. I could of heard wrong though,

[JPark317]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if Brandon plans to eventually write a trilogy of books for White Sand in addition to the graphic novels, or will it just be the graphic novels? The WoB above where he said he wouldn’t get to it for awhile made me think there’s hope he will write an actual trilogy later versus just sticking with the graphic novel. I’ve read White Sand Prose and loved it, I just have a hard time sinking my teeth into a graphic novel. 

[Wandering Investor]

Probably not, just because he has the Scadrial and Roshar to focus on for the cosmere. Aside from those two, I only expect side stories from non core worlds. I don't expect anything from White Sands in till the Adonalsium saga moves into the next chapter, after Roshar is done.

[Lord Meeker]

On 2/22/2018 at 3:26 PM, Calderis said:

Or maybe all the weirdness with Autonomy means Bavadin is choosing actual people (and islands) to be her avatars.

Would be weird if Autonomy is actually a multi-Vessel shard... Because my brain would be blown if Trell is both Autonomy, and not Bavadin, while Bavadin is still Autonomy... Because wth. 

2

This is an interesting idea. I was originally thinking that Bavadin was Trell(who similar to Hoid took on another name), or at the very least Trell is one of the Shards we do not know if he is not Autonomy. I believe he has something to do with the ending of Bands of Mourning. I was thinking that Trell or Bavadin/Autonomy as something to do with the red mist that Wax sees attacking Scadrial when conversing with Harmony upon his death.

I think that since Trell being seen in WS and his name mentioned in the Mistborn series is too important to be dismissed and in my opinion is potentially a very powerful character or at the very least a worldhopper (which to me has been confirmed that he is at the very least a worldhopper)

Edited March 9, 2018 by Ryker Sinclair
Non-spoiler

[Fezzik]

8 hours ago, Ryker Sinclair said:

the ending of Shadow of Self, which I explain in the spoiler below.

1, you don't have to spoiler this, and

2, this spoils Bands of Mourning, not SoS

[Lord Meeker]

Eh, okay. New to this whole thing.

[Fezzik]

Ah, it's fine. I think you may be right about trell being Autonomy by a different name.

[RShara]

The topic doesn't indicate spoiler level, so it's always good to warn of potential spoilers that aren't otherwise indicated

[Fezzik]

 

On 3/8/2018 at 11:02 PM, RShara said:

The topic doesn't indicate spoiler level, so it's always good to warn of potential spoilers that aren't otherwise indicated

I thought Cosmere theories we were free to spoil anything but OB and/or White sand vol 2

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, John203 said:

 

I thought Cosmere theories we were free to spoil anything but OB and/or White sand vol 2

It's not a rule, just I feel that it's a nice just in case sort of thing.

[KalaDANG]

This whole theory with the avatars of Autonomy makes a TON of sense. But i'm kind of confused at how Trell can pose any kind of threat to Harmony and Scadrial if he is only the avatar of Autonomy when Harmony is two shards. Creating an Avatar must take a TON of power and it's definitely the kind of thing that would weaken a Shard to the point where they could be easily defeated by one of the other shards. Even Preservation putting a bit of himself in the Scadrian humans weakened himself to the point where Ruin could kill him. So if that relatively small use of Investiture and essence can allow Preservation to be vulnerable to Ruin, how could an AVATAR of a shard in any way pose a threat to the combined power of TWO shards? It's been confusing me for awhile. Because Trell's operatives and his "Psuedo-Kandra" have been going around under Harmony's nose for who knows how long. And when Wax is talking to Sazed during his out of body experience, he see's the huge red haze surrounding the planet. Brandon has said that there are forces trying to keep knowledge and information from Sazed, making him less of a threat, so if this red haze is Trell, than he's got to be pretty powerful to be able to keep Sazed at bay. So the whole thing is just kind of confusing to me.

[Calderis]

@KalaDANG Individually, Trell should be less powerful than Sazed, but that isn't everything. 

First off, the avatars don't cost anything to create if we're understanding things correctly. They are not splinters. They aren't a piece of power separate from the Shard. They are autonomous mind attached to the Shard itself. So on the whole, Autonomy is actual using more of its available investiture than the other shards. 

Quote

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

source

By creating new "minds" they may be individually weaker than a whole shard, but cumulatively Autonomy is making herself stronger. 

Secondly, power isn't everything. For example. 

Quote

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

source

Sazed is remarkably inexperienced, relatively. And even as an Avatar, this piece of Autonomy would be far more experienced with its powers than he is.