[OB] Underwhelming

[Korbin]

The thing about huge epic fantasy book series is that not every book can be a climax. In wheel of time we had to go through book like book 8, 9, 10 to make books 13 and 14 so good. What may seem like a character digression may just be a step in the plot we don't know yet. Rand's character in wheel of time seemed to digress in books 10,11,12 but that digression was the set up for his character arch. Also the thing that makes epic fantasy different from normal fantasy is its scale. You said that Oathbringer could have been 400 pages. But the thing is that my favorite part of Oathbringer are those other 733 pages. Those parts of the books that aren't "required" but set the book apart from any old book out there. (These all refer to your first few comments and main post)

[maxal]

45 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not sure you want to do that. Have the rabbit hole itself:

• September 2nd(Side Discussion): [OB] SO GLAD HE'S DEAD
• November 19th: [OB] A certain character needing to be broken enough to become a radiant
• December 2nd: [OB] Adolin's breaking
• December 3rd: [OB] An argument for becoming a Stoneward
• December 4th: [OB] The problem with Adolin
• January 24th: [OB] Adolin, a potential Edgedancer?
• Several Times between Pages 4-15: [OB] Mayalaran
• At least Three Times, but I'm not searching 96 Pages: [OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

Go and have a read, maybe two. If you still feel there's something to discuss, please do.

OMG great list... I am not sure I even READ all of those threads. I missed a lot during the weeks following the release of OB.

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

While I get that you're agreeing on the deserving part, I have to go on my standard rant about Adolin being broken... Or would have if The One Who Connects hadn't just linked multiple threads containing my rant. 

What has always bothered me about this entire discussion is the fact the narrative isn't convincing all readers. Nobody is asking questions whether or not other characters are sufficiently broken or not, even minor characters not having much page time. Adolin however? We are tearing our shirts off trying to figure out if he is broken or not, if he does feel the strain because his attitude is to always push harder, try harder. It is either Brandon purposefully wrote down a simplistic character or he has something in mind. 

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

OMG great list... I am not sure I even READ all of those threads. I missed a lot during the weeks following the release of OB.

You've posted in all but 1 of them. You're missing the Nov19 discussion. Although your post in the Dec4 topic was before that discussion happened..

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

Nobody is asking questions whether or not other characters are sufficiently broken or not, even minor characters not having much page time. Adolin however? It is either Brandon purposefully wrote down a simplistic character or he has something in mind. 

I agree. It's curious how little resistance we have to many of the others.

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

You've posted in all but 1 of them. You're missing the Nov19 discussion. Although your post in the Dec4 topic was before that discussion happened..

I did? Oh well I forgot  I'll have to go re-read the posts 

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I agree. It's curious how little resistance we have to many of the others.

I think it comes from Adolin being a Kholin and for having been presented as a given archetype. 

[galendo]

Personally, I find Oathbringer to be the least compelling of the Stormlight Archive so far.  If anyone wants to read why I think this, let me know and I'll post a more detailed list of my pros and cons.

With this post, I'd rather explain my theory for why this book is so divisive.  It's about broken promises.  Only implied promises, not explicit ones; but broken nevertheless.

Compare these two situations.  At the end of The Way of Kings, readers were implicitly promised:

1) That Kaladin would join with Dalinar and help him continue his duty on the Shattered Plain.

2) That Dalinar would bring the Vengeance Pact to an end, or at least make great strides in doing so.

3) That Shallan and Jasnah would reach the Shattered Plain and start interacting with the other cast.

4) That Szeth would be sent after Dalinar, and thus come into conflict with Dalinar and Kaladin.

5) That Adolin and Shallan would begin courting.

All of these were promised, and all of these promises were fulfilled in Words of Radiance.  (Well, Jasnah got a bit lost along the way, but these sorts of plot twists are perfectly acceptable.)

Now compare this to what happened in Oathbringer.  At the end of Words of Radiance, readers were implicitly promised:

1) That Kaladin would rush to Hearthstone and either avert the crisis or deal with its aftermath.  (Turns out, there was no crisis, and he was in Hearthstone for all of about five minutes.  Somewhat anticlimactic.)

2) That Shallan would interact further with the Ghostbloods and we would learn more of their means and motivations.  (This did not happen.)

3) That Jasnah would join up with some of the other characters, armed with important new information from the highspren and/or Hoid.  (Jasnah did rejoin, but not so much the "new information" thing.)

4) That Navani and/or Shallan would plumb the secrets of Urithiru.  (Marginal success here.  We the readers know almost nothing more about Urithiru than we did a book ago, but they did do some plumbing.)

5) That Dalinar would learn more of the Knights Radiant, including the reason for the Recreance.  (This happened, but whether or not it happened satisfactorily probably depends on each individual reader's satisfaction with the given explanation for the Recreance.

6) That Adolin and/or team Dalinar would suffer some consequences from Sadeas' murder.  (This did not happen.)

7) That Moash would join the Diagramists.  (This did not happen.)

8) That Bridge Four would continue on the path to squire-hood/Radiance.  (This happened, and in spades.  Probably the only out-of-the-park home run on the list, IMHO.)

Well, there were a number of other promises as well -- I for one feel rather annoyed about what happened with Eshonai and don't feel that Venli is at all an acceptable replacement -- but for convenience I've only listed the main promises about the main cast.

When you compare the 100% promise-completion-rate from The Way of Kings with the 25-50% completion rate of those promises made at the end of Words of Radiance, it's not surprising that plenty of readers aren't as happy with Oathbringer as they were with the previous book(s).  How happy you are with Oathbringer probably depends on how happy you were with the arcs we got instead.  For instance, I was actually fine with Kaladin's nonexistent Hearthstone arc...but I can totally sympathize with the readers who feel that Oathbringer didn't have as much Kaladin-being-awesome as they anticipated.

[Bort]

4 hours ago, galendo said:

2) That Shallan would interact further with the Ghostbloods and we would learn more of their means and motivations.  (This did not happen.)

Yes it did. It might not have given you as much info on the Ghostbloods as you'd like, but there was quite a bit of interaction with them. Also, what about the line from Mraize about using the Voidbringers?

[Erandeni]

For me the things I didn't like were Amaran's end and how quickly everyone was ok with Szeth being in their side.

I loved the rest of the book.

[Mage of Lirigon]

12 hours ago, galendo said:

Now compare this to what happened in Oathbringer.  At the end of Words of Radiance, readers were implicitly promised:
1)That Kaladin would rush to Hearthstone and either avert the crisis or deal with its aftermath.  (Turns out, there was no crisis, and he was in Hearthstone for all of about five minutes.  Somewhat anticlimactic.)

Dealing with the crisis at Hearthstone mostly turns back into Brandon subverting the idea of the Voidbringers being rampaging monsters, which was basically already subverted in WoR. Personally, seeing Kaladin meeting his family, Laral and Roshone was more satisfying than anything else.

 

Quote

2) That Shallan would interact further with the Ghostbloods and we would learn more of their means and motivations.  (This did not happen.)

Shallan did interact more with the Ghostbloods. We didn't learn too much more about them, but Brandon's playing the long game with them. Can't blame him for not giving up the game immediately. 

 

Quote

3) That Jasnah would join up with some of the other characters, armed with important new information from the highspren and/or Hoid.  (Jasnah did rejoin, but not so much the "new information" thing.)

Jasnah did get information, but she mostly kept it to herself. What she did get has already come in handy, as seen in the last part of the book. She may even have some more nuggets tucked away.

 

Quote

4) That Navani and/or Shallan would plumb the secrets of Urithiru.  (Marginal success here.  We the readers know almost nothing more about Urithiru than we did a book ago, but they did do some plumbing.)

Again, your problem seems to be that Brandon has not given away the game in one book. This is a ten book epic. Everything can't be revealed at once.

 

Quote

6) That Adolin and/or team Dalinar would suffer some consequences from Sadeas' murder.  (This did not happen.)

Adolin killing Sadeas directly led into House Sadeas' defection to Odium though. As for personal consequences to Adolin, it eroded his father's view of who he thought, or rather wanted Adolin to be. 

 

Quote

7) That Moash would join the Diagramists.  (This did not happen.)

Moash joined odium instead, which makes him more significant. In fact, seeing as the Diagramists are, at least for now, Odium's side, he did end up joining them, in a way.

 

Quote

 

Well, there were a number of other promises as well -- I for one feel rather annoyed about what happened with Eshonai and don't feel that Venli is at all an acceptable replacement -- but for convenience I've only listed the main promises about the main cast.

When you compare the 100% promise-completion-rate from The Way of Kings with the 25-50% completion rate of those promises made at the end of Words of Radiance, it's not surprising that plenty of readers aren't as happy with Oathbringer as they were with the previous book(s).  How happy you are with Oathbringer probably depends on how happy you were with the arcs we got instead.  For instance, I was actually fine with Kaladin's nonexistent Hearthstone arc...but I can totally sympathize with the readers who feel that Oathbringer didn't have as much Kaladin-being-awesome as they anticipated.

 

One of the problems of reading a long running series like this are that people get entirely too comfortable with what they want to happen and mix it up with what the author foreshadows, or they end up being far too invested in their theories and aren't able to fully accept what the author actually writes.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mage of Lirigon

[Calderis]

12 hours ago, galendo said:

5) That Adolin and Shallan would begin courting.

You're padding your numbers here. This wasn't insinuated until the beginning of WoR when Jasnah set up the causal. 

@Mage of Lirigon I completely agree with your points. 

[The One Who Connects]

19 hours ago, galendo said:

1) That Kaladin would rush to Hearthstone and either avert the crisis or deal with its aftermath.  (Turns out, there was no crisis, and he was in Hearthstone for all of about five minutes.  Somewhat anticlimactic.)

That's 100% our own faults. We, like Kaladin, assumed there'd be a crisis because we assumed we knew things about the Voidbringers. The Hearthstone bit was done that way on purpose, to start us on the path of "maybe we're wrong about them," and facilitate Kaladin's internal moral conflict for the future.

19 hours ago, galendo said:

4) That Navani and/or Shallan would plumb the secrets of Urithiru.  (Marginal success here.  We the readers know almost nothing more about Urithiru than we did a book ago, but they did do some plumbing.)

The non-radiant population seems to have trouble navigating Urithiru. The Radiant population(minus Jasnah) aren't the most scientific bunch. There's also the end of the world to be dividing their efforts. In the face of these, a lack of extreme progress is understandable. I'd say the discoveries of the giant Fabrial and the gemstone library are a good start on the mystical side, and the plumbing/air currents are a good start on the more mundane side(though it'd be good if they learned the secret to agriculture).

19 hours ago, galendo said:

whether or not it happened satisfactorily probably depends on each individual reader's satisfaction with the given explanation for the Recreance.

The problem with the Recreance explanation is that it's become abundantly clear that there was no singular cause to the Recreance. Any singular scene revealing Recreance info is gonna come off as an unsatisfactory explanation to use because it's only one piece of the puzzle. The internal conflict of who to defend, the "Voidbringer" revelation, shattering the plains, creating the Parshmen, the "we won" declaration, etc... until a character puts all the various pieces together in-world, we've got to do it ourselves.

We've gotten theory-crazy around here: we want to work for our answers, rather than getting them on a silver platter, and it seems like Brandon has noticed this. I'm sure it'll be spelled out in book 4 or 5 for the more casual readers, but I think that Brandon is giving us a puzzle, and is letting us solve it instead of just spelling it out for us(for now).

19 hours ago, galendo said:

7) That Moash would join the Diagramists.  (This did not happen.)

A lot of things that were "supposed to happen" got interrupted by the arrival of the Fused. Remember those supply caravans that never arrived during one of Kaladin's chapters with the Parshmen? These aren't broken promises, it's just the way life goes.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

20 hours ago, galendo said:

Personally, I find Oathbringer to be the least compelling of the Stormlight Archive so far.  If anyone wants to read why I think this, let me know and I'll post a more detailed list of my pros and cons.

With this post, I'd rather explain my theory for why this book is so divisive.  It's about broken promises.  Only implied promises, not explicit ones; but broken nevertheless.

....

When you compare the 100% promise-completion-rate from The Way of Kings with the 25-50% completion rate of those promises made at the end of Words of Radiance, it's not surprising that plenty of readers aren't as happy with Oathbringer as they were with the previous book(s).  How happy you are with Oathbringer probably depends on how happy you were with the arcs we got instead.  For instance, I was actually fine with Kaladin's nonexistent Hearthstone arc...but I can totally sympathize with the readers who feel that Oathbringer didn't have as much Kaladin-being-awesome as they anticipated.

I have to say: How exactly did Brandon Sanderson promise anything? How is he breaking a promise? How did he keep a promise before?

A promise is something an author makes outside the text of his book. If there's a WoB somewhere that says all those things will happen, I'd like to see it.

Foreshadowing, however, is a technique that authors use inside works of fiction. Here Brandon foreshadowed some things, but others may have just been the result of a forum full of crazy obsessed people that have 3 years between books to analyze every word in a set of enormous books in order to predict future events....(hmm, wait a minute, side note: we are VOIDBRINGERS). I personally think it's awesome when Brandon plays with our expectations by hinting at something to come, then in fact taking things the other way. As someone pointed out above, the visit to Hearthstone very likely was written in that way to cause the reader to feel the same way Kaladin did. His surprise was our surprise.

Why, exactly, is that a promise broken? Why would we want everything that is foreshadowed to become a checklist to tick off in the next volume? Wouldn't that make life kinda boring?

[BraidedRose]

Underwhelming isn’t the word I would use to describe OB because many aspects of it were very affecting to me. But I do sympathize with that point of view because in some ways it wasn’t what I expected and parts of it did fall flat for me. I’m trying to withhold final judgment because I am in the middle of a re-read and I’m afraid I didn’t absorb it all the first go round which leaves me vulnerable to the parts that didn’t work for me having too much of an effect on my overall impression. But I’ll try to sum up some major points for now.

This was Dalinar’s book and while his ending was very satisfying I found myself not enjoying almost all of his flashbacks. I was hard to spend so much time seeing him not progress. It was clear from the beginning that we were being shown a different, monstrous Dalinar but it didn’t require all the pages it took to establish that and he didn’t change much until after the flashbacks ended. I found myself only really interested in his visit to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. His current day thread also was rather slow moving until the end (which did make up for a lot).

Shallan was nearly as important in this book as Dalinar and while a lot changed for her it also did largely feel like regression, which made it painful at times to read. Unlike Dalinar, none of that seemed paid off by her ending which if anything made me feel more uneasy because on the surface it seems like we are supposed to believe everything is okay with her. But if so it doesn’t feel justified and if not I guess that means there is even more pain to come. Unfortunately her romantic arc was deeply unsatisfying to me, especially in this context and I fear that did affect my overall impression of the book on first read.

Some things I really enjoyed: Elhokar, all interactions between Shallan and Wit and between Kaladin and Syl, seeing a different side of Jasnah although she was overall a more minor player, the Shadesmar sequence, and the payoff with Dalinar ascending. These are the positives that stuck with me after my first read. 

Bottom line, I think there is a difference between subverting expectations but in a way that feels justified and delivers a meaningful payoff and failing to deliver on expectations in a way that feels rushed or unjustified. My overall impression is that Dalinar’s storyline was more of the first (although it was slow getting there because of Brandon’s commitment to the structure of extended flashbacks for each of the main viewpoint characters). Unfortunately so far for me Shallan’s story was more of the latter, but I’m willing to hope it’s not as it seems and there may be a better payoff in the future. 

[Nymeros]

I won't address any specific complaints from the OP, just stopping in to say that I find it curious that this book came out around the same time as The Last Jedi, both had failure as the most important theme, and both had "well im not sure how to feel about that" reactions. Lol! 

This book was not what I expected and I'm fine with that. After the predictable WoR, I was impressed that Brandon could still keep me on my toes.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Nymeros

[digitalbusker]

11 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

How exactly did Brandon Sanderson promise anything? How is he breaking a promise? How did he keep a promise before?

This phrasing is a little misleading, but when Brandon talks about writing (I'm mostly thinking about Writing Excuses here, but I know some of his BYU lectures are online and I expect he uses similar vocabulary there) he talks a lot about being aware of "what promises are you making to the reader" and the importance of fulfilling those promises in a way that's satisfying but not necessarily what the reader expects. There's a significant overlap between Sharders and Writing Excuses listeners, so I expect that's how the term came to be used that way here.

Edited February 22, 2018 by digitalbusker
Manualcorrect

[Walkerxes]

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

Underwhelming isn’t the word I would use to describe OB because many aspects of it were very affecting to me. But I do sympathize with that point of view because in some ways it wasn’t what I expected and parts of it did fall flat for me. I’m trying to withhold final judgment because I am in the middle of a re-read and I’m afraid I didn’t absorb it all the first go round which leaves me vulnerable to the parts that didn’t work for me having too much of an effect on my overall impression. But I’ll try to sum up some major points for now.

This was Dalinar’s book and while his ending was very satisfying I found myself not enjoying almost all of his flashbacks. I was hard to spend so much time seeing him not progress. It was clear from the beginning that we were being shown a different, monstrous Dalinar but it didn’t require all the pages it took to establish that and he didn’t change much until after the flashbacks ended. I found myself only really interested in his visit to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. His current day thread also was rather slow moving until the end (which did make up for a lot).

Shallan was nearly as important in this book as Dalinar and while a lot changed for her it also did largely feel like regression, which made it painful at times to read. Unlike Dalinar, none of that seemed paid off by her ending which if anything made me feel more uneasy because on the surface it seems like we are supposed to believe everything is okay with her. But if so it doesn’t feel justified and if not I guess that means there is even more pain to come. Unfortunately her romantic arc was deeply unsatisfying to me, especially in this context and I fear that did affect my overall impression of the book on first read.

Some things I really enjoyed: Elhokar, all interactions between Shallan and Wit and between Kaladin and Syl, seeing a different side of Jasnah although she was overall a more minor player, the Shadesmar sequence, and the payoff with Dalinar ascending. These are the positives that stuck with me after my first read. 

Bottom line, I think there is a difference between subverting expectations but in a way that feels justified and delivers a meaningful payoff and failing to deliver on expectations in a way that feels rushed or unjustified. My overall impression is that Dalinar’s storyline was more of the first (although it was slow getting there because of Brandon’s commitment to the structure of extended flashbacks for each of the main viewpoint characters). Unfortunately so far for me Shallan’s story was more of the latter, but I’m willing to hope it’s not as it seems and there may be a better payoff in the future. 

I can't lie, the flashbacks are my least favorite aspect of this series. Dalinar's were by far the most interesting to read, for me, but I'll admit, with the exception of a few, I skipped the flashback chapters my second time through. This isn't to say the flashbacks in any of the 3 books were badly written.. I just loathe flashback scenes, no matter the format, genre, or story.. I can't explain why, I just do

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

This phrasing is a little misleading, but when Brandon talks about writing (I'm mostly thinking about Writing Excises here, but I know some of his BYU lectures are online and I expect he uses similar vocabulary there) he talks a lot about being aware of "what promises are you making to the reader" and the importance of fulfilling those promises in a way that's satisfying but not necessarily what the reader expects. There's a significant overlap between Sharders and Writing Excuses listeners, so I expect that's how the term came to be used that way here.

It's more than just that. It's something they teach in almost all fiction writing. 

It's basically the reason that the chekovs gun thing exists. When you present certain things to a reader you create expectations, and failure to address those expectations is a "broken promise." 

The issue here is that not all expectations are if readers are intended. Brandon can't be expected to keep "promises" that people think he made. 

It's like getting mad that someone forgot your birthday when they never knew it in the first place. 

[Prelude]

It’s almost March and I still don’t know when I will decide to reread the book. I think about it and then can’t bring myself to read through all the:

 viewpoints of characters better left in the background 

 boring politics/redundant 

 for way too much of the book main characters don’t even have scenes or conversations together

 the love triangle...what love triangle?...what love

Brilliant Jasnah and fascinating Moash will be the reasons why I ever choose to reread. So your views @IronBars I strongly share. 

[Bort]

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

(though it'd be good if they learned the secret to agriculture)

Worming...

7 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

on the surface it seems like we are supposed to believe everything is okay with her

No, I don't think we are. Certainly that's not the impression I got from reading Oathbringer. As WoB said, it is more like she took a step in the right direction, but still has a ways to go yet.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Bort

[IronBars]

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

Actually, no. Adolin's name come up first within the title page for Part 4 and whoever's name come up first on those always the main focus on interest for the part we are about to read. This has been consistent within every single part within every single book, hence I doubt there is an exception being made here because Kaladin's name didn't come up first. 

Hence, the Shadesmar's arc most definite main purpose was to have Adolin and Maya meet. It wasn't to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar, this is not even a purpose, just a consequence. Of course, a given part always has more than one purpose. Other purposes were world-building and Syl's backstory, but the major part of the Shadesmar arc focused on Adolin feeling out of place and intriguing Maya. It wraps up in a duel function climax: Adolin is wounded which serves to have Maya rescue him and Kaladin refusing to voice out the fourth oath.

All of these arcs work one inside the other, but it false to state Shadesmar merely was an interlude to keep Kaladin away. Besides, had he been in Thaylenah earlier: things would have gone down exactly the same. It is Kaladin who feels he needs to protect Dalinar, but his presence at an earlier time wouldn't have change the course of events in any significant matter. It most definitely is not a purpose for the arc.

I remenber you from my last time here maxel, and remember your a big adolin fan. Also recall you were one of the people who disliked how renarin was a radiant as well, least at the start, dunno if you changed your mind on that.

My point with shadesmar was at its heart it was a premise to keep kaladin from dalinar.

Im not saying other things didnt happen there as you allude to with adolin there. However they didnt need to spend that long in shadesmar for that particular story. So in my opinion while other things happened there the real reason was to keep kaladin from dalinar. If you disagree thats fine thats just how i see it.

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

You've been saying this a lot: how Adolin supposedly doesn't deserve to be a Radiant based on criterion which seems personal to you and not narrative related. Who's to say Adolin doesn't deserve to be a Radiant? Who's to say Dalinar, Renarin, Elhokar, Lift and Szeth deserve it more than him? Adolin has consistently put himself in danger on the behalf of others, he never backed away in front of any challenges, he took a changing world in a stride and instead of pitying himself like other Radiants are quick to do, he focused on what he could do, no matter how small. He has been one of the least selfish and self-centered of all characters. How is it he does not deserve it?

What did Lift did to deserve Wyndle to bond her? She went to the Nightwatcher, she asked an unusual bond and the Nightwatcher took a liking of her. If she did anything noteworthy PRIOR to Wyndle bonding her, the story doesn't say so.

What did Renarin did to deserve Glys? He didn't try to be scholar until he has moved to at least the third oath. When has been learned and giving? When has he shown the same kind of altruism the Stump and Ym have shown? The same interest into other people? 

What did Elhokar did to deserve a spren? Oh so because ONCE in his life he put his personal glory last and strove to do the right thing he's suddenly worthy of being a Radiant? Apparently he was... So how is Adolin less deserving then him?

I could go on, but my point is very few character look like they actually deserved to be Radiants: they weren't chosen based on they worth, they were chosen based on their potential to grow into a given order and THIS Adolin has plenty. And worth.

As for the spren leaving, some readers love to speak of this as if it were a theory, but truth is we know it isn't possible. The only way to revive Maya is through a Nahel Bond, when this happens, Maya is bonded to Adolin.

Your opinion is unfortunately not what the narrative is trying to tell us. Shallan did speak the fourth truth but, as others pointed out, she did it because Pattern forced her to. What we see in OB is the consequence of a Radiant progressing too fast, faster than he/she can manage. Shallan might have spoken the words, but she cannot accept it, hence she spent 1000 pages trying to find ways to not have to deal with it. 

I have seen nothing textually related that indicates adolin meets any of the prerequisite criteria to become a KR. And given he doesn't get a back story it indicates nothing significant happened him we didnt see either, at least in my opinion.

Regards lift we will see a backstory for her so im sure her story of how shes deserving will come to light.

regards renarin id say same as above although i dont see him deserving glys in any way shape or form, if hes story consists of his dad didnt love him enough i wouldnt be surprised. Renarin proves himself more of a hindrance then a help most the time.

i also dont agree elhokar deserved to me a knights radiant.

Szeth is in my opinion one the most deserving to be a knight radiant and his order is perfect for him.

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

As for the spren leaving, some readers love to speak of this as if it were a theory, but truth is we know it isn't possible. The only way to revive Maya is through a Nahel Bond, when this happens, Maya is bonded to Adolin.

I said in a diff post that if he revives the blade he will be bonded to it, so i know if he revives it the spren wont leave, i just think the spren leaving be a better story.

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

Your opinion is unfortunately not what the narrative is trying to tell us. Shallan did speak the fourth truth but, as others pointed out, she did it because Pattern forced her to. What we see in OB is the consequence of a Radiant progressing too fast, faster than he/she can manage. Shallan might have spoken the words, but she cannot accept it, hence she spent 1000 pages trying to find ways to not have to deal with it. 

The arc was also meant to mirror Kaladin choosing NOT to speak the fourth oath because he was not ready. Had he done it now, he would have probably regressed too because he wouldn't accept what it means.

This is a forum where opinions are meant to be shared. 

I know thats not what the text is telling us happened, i was just explaining how i feel shallans character didnt devolop/evolve/progress because of the direction it went, and shallans story became an object lesson in repetiveness and tedium.

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

It didn't spring out of nowhere, they got to know each other and they were curious about each other. What would have happened had the context been different, the story doesn't tell, but it most certainly didn't come up out of thin air.

It was an unnecessary inclusion based on one or two interactions and looked and seemed fake, put there for no real reason.

On 2/20/2018 at 11:06 PM, maxal said:

Adolin might be a secondary character, but up until OB he had as much page time as Dalinar and a stronger focus into WoR. Not personally liking the character and not wishing him to get more focus is one your own prerogative, but nobody can deny we've been reading more about him than about any other character besides Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan. Some readers are arguing he totally deserves to have a stronger narrative.

This being said, I do agree the consequences of him murdering Sadeas were really disappointing. That's an arc Brandon most certainly dropped and missed the mark with.

Also, the story isn't about 10 characters being members of 10 orders: it is about a bunch of characters, some of them being Radiants. Nothing is set in stone and I personally root for optimum character development. I wouldn't want Adolin not to become a KR BECAUSE he is a Kholin, I want him not to become a KR if this turns out to be the best narrative and the most coherent one with his development. Fortunately (or unfortunately), Brandon did start writing the Blade revival arc, so if not KR, Adolin will at least be... something.

I don't mind adolin as a character, so its not that i dislike him. And i dont want him not to be a KR just because hes a kholin. 

After WoR there was alot of potential for adolins character, given the contents of OB, i think its safe to say that will most likely not be realised. 

@Prelude alot of people seem to share our view on OB, maybe even the majority of people, most arguements for how perfect OB is just seem to want to justify and applaud every choice, decision, sanderson himself made just because it is sanderson.

I believe it was Sanderson who said each entry in the series while part of an bigger story needed to a self contained story in its own right, or something to that effect, and OB wasnt, at least in my opinion.

Edited February 22, 2018 by IronBars

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, IronBars said:

My point with shadesmar was at its heart it was a premise to keep kaladin from dalinar.

Actually, I spotted something in OB last night that might help explain why Brandon sent them to Shadsmar, but we'll have to wait until book four to see if I'm right or not.

One of the reasons Kaladin agreed to go to Kholinar is so, once they were done there, he could go and rescue his parents (again), and he planned to leave just as soon as they were done there. Without Kaladin being shipped off to Shadesmar, then we might have seen something quite different had he instead headed north back home.

So, what I am expecting we get to see now is something happening with his parents and new brother which made them flee across the border into Herdaz (like was said in OB a lot of Alethi seem to be doing), and we'll have a bit of a hunt for them in book 4.

[IronBars]

3 minutes ago, Bort said:

Actually, I spotted something in OB last night that might help explain why Brandon sent them to Shadsmar, but we'll have to wait until book four to see if I'm right or not.

One of the reasons Kaladin agreed to go to Kholinar is so, once they were done there, he could go and rescue his parents (again), and he planned to leave just as soon as they were done there. Without Kaladin being shipped off to Shadesmar, then we might have seen something quite different had he instead headed north back home.

So, what I am expecting we get to see now is something happening with his parents and new brother which made them flee across the border into Herdaz (like was said in OB a lot of Alethi seem to be doing), and we'll have a bit of a hunt for them in book 4.

If your right lets hope the hunt isnt like his headlong rush to save them at the end of WoR.  However i dont have the book in front of me but didnt kaladin rush off to drehy and skar then just back to uirithru at the end of OB? If thats the case what you said seems less likely

[Calderis]

44 minutes ago, IronBars said:

I believe it was Sanderson who said each entry in the series while part of an bigger story needed to a self contained story in its own right, or something to that effect, and OB wasnt, at least in my opinion.

That is in reference to each individual story in the Cosmere, not each book in a series. 

Which is why I constantly get on people about how they think hemalurgy is going to be a big part of SA, or Kelsier is going to secretly be the leader of the Ghostbloods. 

I've not seen anything from him saying that every book in a series should be self contained. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Calderis

[IronBars]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That is in reference to each individual story in the Cosmere, not each book in a series. 

Which is why I constantly get on people about how they think hemalurgy is going to be a big part of SA, or Kelsier is going to secretly be the leader of the Ghostbloods. 

I've not seen anything from him saying that every book in a series should be self contained. 

Not sure how to link a post so il copy and paste it. 

B&N Reads

BROWSE

 

 

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THE COSMERE SHOW

Brandon Sanderson Discusses the Past and Future of the Stormlight Archive

by Aidan Moher/

November 15, 2017 at 2:30 pm

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Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive Series #3)

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Brandon Sanderson’s fans have come to expect big things with each new novel he releases. Like, literally big things: his latest, Oathbringer, the third volume of the Stormlight Archive, clocks in an an astounding 1,200 pages. More astounding: not a one of them is wasted.

Sanderson rose to popularity on the back of his admirable work completing Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Timeseries after Jordan’s passing in 2007, and has since become known as the premier American author of big, fat epic fantasy novels. Fans love the intricacy of his worlds; the casts of thousands that fill his pages; his layered, complex magic systems; and his plots, which twist and weave and leave you a little breathless.

I recent caught up with the author to chat about Oathbringer, the intersection of religion and fantasy, what it’s like to write epic fantasy in 2017, and what’s next for the Stormlight Archive.

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“I feel like one of the big dangers for epic fantasy is growing so large you stop being able to tell a complete story in each volume,” Sanderson said, referencing the latest, largest volume in his already huge Stormlight Archive. However, he said, he has an advantage over forbears like Robert Jordan and George R.R. Martin—he’s seen what they did, and where they went wrong.

“When [readers] have to wait on new installments, and they’re not each coming to a satisfying conclusion, there’s this sense of being lost at sea. Something feels off. At least, it felt off to me during those middle volumes of Robert Jordan’s series,” he said. While he doesn’t think it affected the overall quality of Wheel of Time, he saw it as a warning sign when he began work on his own ambitious multi-volume epic.

He asked himself: “Is there something you can do about that, having seen how it’s gone for authors in the past?”

A big story is just a bunch of little stories connected in interesting ways. When I write a Stormlight Archive book, I plot each book like I would plot a trilogy. So, between the covers of Oathbringer is an entire trilogy.”

Eh so ya....didnt expect that to post like that sorry

Anyway point is he said it for SA not the cosmere like you implied

Edited February 22, 2018 by IronBars

[Guest Procrastinationspren]

While I may not agree in the specifics of @galendo 's post, I think he was spot on when he said that the reason why Oathbringer may be "underwhelming" (a strong word IMO) is that there were things that we expected but didn't receive/ weren't adressed in a satisfactory way. But we have to remember that while we didn't get some things we wanted, we also got things we couldn't have dreamed of. To me, the whole Dalinar arc was the best thing Brandon ever wrote. It was so emotional, so powerful, I couldn't stop reading.

I think there are things in OB that diminish how good the book is, and that's why I don't think it is the best SA book yet, but it is still a REALLY GOOD book and some parts of it are simply fantastic.

The lesson here is that we simply cannot expect Brandon to completely outdo himself every single time. Yes, he put aside some plotlines. Yes, he did some things that may people may not like now. But in the end, we have plenty of books showing that he thinks ahead. Maybe, in the end, we will realize that some of these "bad" parts in OB lead to something great in the future.

Also, I would like to say that I've seen good arguments on both sides of this discussion and would like to remind everyone that just because you disagree with the overall opinion of someone, that doesn't mean that you have to disagree with everything that person says.

[Dreamstorm]

51 minutes ago, Procrastinationspren said:

Maybe, in the end, we will realize that some of these "bad" parts in OB lead to something great in the future.

I completely agree with this.  I actually really really like OB (it wasn't WoR, but that was an extraordinary reading experience), but being a lover of romances, I was very disappointed in the Adolin-Kaladin-Shallan romantic arc.  After a lot of discourse, I'm pretty sure it's not over, so I'm in "waiting for something to come it" mode instead of "disappointed" mode.  And even if I'm wrong, at least it's made me enjoy OB more for now!

1 hour ago, Bort said:

So, what I am expecting we get to see now is something happening with his parents and new brother which made them flee across the border into Herdaz (like was said in OB a lot of Alethi seem to be doing), and we'll have a bit of a hunt for them in book 4.

I have also thought this is a good intro plot line for Kaladin in SA4 (finding his family and relocating them to Urithiru), but I'm not sure how that jives with the one year gap.  I'm pretty certain we'll see Kaladin away from Shallan and Adolin for the first bit of SA4 for some reason or another (and finding his family/Hearthstone townspeople would be a very satisfying one from my perspective), because there needs to be chance for the Shallan/Adolin marriage to crumple without it being directly related to Kaladin.  (I can't imagine it's going to be Kaladin who drives them apart, doesn't seem Brandon's style.)

1 hour ago, IronBars said:

I believe it was Sanderson who said each entry in the series while part of an bigger story needed to a self contained story in its own right, or something to that effect, and OB wasnt, at least in my opinion.

In this respect, OB to me was a mixed bag.  Dalinar got a very nice, complete character arc.  Shallan had a lot of development (not growth, but expanding her character), but there wasn't a conclusion to her arc in the book; that's definitely a story arrested in development at the moment.  Kaladin is much the same as Shallan.  (They are almost always mirroring each other in this series.)  We had some nice minor character arcs, including Venli and Timbre, Skar becoming Radiant and the reveal of Renarin's void-ish spren.  But mostly it was Dalinar, and if you weren't into that arc, I can definitely see how the book would fall flat.