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[OB] Underwhelming


IronBars

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26 minutes ago, IronBars said:

unless im mistaken OB has generated the least debate/theories on here as well.

What? The boards have been more active than ever. And if your talking enduring theories... The book has only been out a couple months, and those don't usually surface until after a few reread. 

At least personally, I know I've developed more theories within the past two months than in the last year. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

What? The boards have been more active than ever. And if your talking enduring theories... The book has only been out a couple months, and those don't usually surface until after a few reread. 

At least personally, I know I've developed more theories within the past two months than in the last year. 

After the way of kings and after WoR the forum for those books at the time seemed busier if thats the right word

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Stormlight Archives Forum: 189 Pages.
Oathbringer Subforum: 57 Pages.

Each have a theory under a day old in them, so that's current for you. 189+57=246.   246/4=61.5
Of all the Stormlight topics made in the past 6&1/2 years, the Oathbringer Subforum has generated just under 1/4th of them. I'd say that's a good bit of activity for 9 months.

Even I've come up with a theory, and I've only read the preview chapters.

Edited by The One Who Connects
Mis-added.
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6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Stormlight Archives Forum: 189 Pages.
Oathbringer Subforum: 57 Pages.

Each have a theory under a day old in them, so that's current for you. 189+57=246.   246/4=61.5
Of all the Stormlight topics made in the past 6&1/2 years, the Oathbringer Subforum has generated just under 1/4th of them. I'd say that's a good bit of activity for 9 months.

Even I've come up with a theory, and I've only read the preview chapters.

At least some of the OB subforun seems to be pre release so dont see that as 100% accurate, was just how it seemed anyway, i dunno maybe im wrong, just while OB is the most divisive to me didnt seem to generate as much activity as others SA books

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Just now, IronBars said:

At least some of the OB Subforum seems to be pre-release so don't see that as 100% accurate, was just how it seemed anyway. Maybe I'm wrong, just while OB is the most divisive to me, it didn't seem to generate as much activity as others SA books.

I extended the time-frame to 9 months in my edit to reflect that earlier start. Additionally, many of those topics are from when we had preview chapters out, which is discussion directly stemming from (part of) the book, so that would count.

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2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Be that as it may, Dalinar is technically capable of both.

Granted, the Stormfather probably has enough power and authority to prevent minor Spren from forming him plate, and he's refusing to become a blade, so Dalinar still might not, but he could.

Admittedly, I actually like the idea of Dalinar remaining blade/plateless, even if he's actually capable of both. It sort of sets him apart, as well as sort-of forcing him to find ways to solve situations in a manner different from how he did in the past (aka, hit it until it submitted), and perhaps explore his abilities along a different type of path.

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I just thought of this so hoping someone here can answer, in the scene where kaladin and the royal guard are fleeing the palace in kholinar, and kaladin is rendered unable to act when the royal guard face the parshmen he became friendly with.

Didnt he basically let elhokar die ? 

All the other combatants are armed, fighting eachother, elhokar is on his knees, child in hand, moash walks up, kaladin sees him walk up, sees he is intent on killing elhokar, and just sits there.

And not only that syl never says anything about it either yet when was gonna let moash kill him before she went so far as to break the bond nearly.

He fought mosh and graves in the end and spoke the third ideal so saying it was because it was moash isnt an answer, and the fact syl didnt react atal in anyway seems strange.

I know circumstances are different but at the end of the day his inability to decide what to do between the royal guard and the parshman shouldnt of stopped him saving elhokar because of the second ideal "i will protect those who can not protect themselves" and at that point elhokar definetly couldnt protect himself nor could he protect his son (who could easily of gotten hurt or killed by design or accident) 

I dont see how his confusion on how to act between the royal guard and the parshmen extended to elhokar and his son.

That part should of been clear.

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Choosing to let somebody kill the person you've promised to protect is not the same thing as failing to protect the person you've promised to protect. Kaladin was incapacitated. Morally it's no different than if he were physically restrained from intervening.

And just because I like circles: the way you can tell it's no different is that it didn't do any damage to his bond.

Put another way: it's not that Kaladin hesitated, whether because he wasn't sure whether killing Moash to save Elhokar was the right thing to do or for some other reason. He was unable to intervene at all because in that moment his brain was broken.

Put yet a third way: "Didn't he basically let Elhokar die?" No. He failed to save him, which is different from letting it happen.

PS: Small nitpick: "should have" is a thing, and "should've" is a thing. "Should of" is not a thing.

Edited by digitalbusker
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13 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

Choosing to let somebody kill the person you've promised to protect is not the same thing as failing to protect the person you've promised to protect. Kaladin was incapacitated. Morally it's no different than if he were physically restrained from intervening.

And just because I like circles: the way you can tell it's no different is that it didn't do any damage to his bond.

Put another way: it's not that Kaladin hesitated, whether because he wasn't sure whether killing Moash to save Elhokar was the right thing to do or for some other reason. He was unable to intervene at all because in that moment his brain was broken.

Put yet a third way: "Didn't he basically let Elhokar die?" No. He failed to save him, which is different from letting it happen.

PS: Small nitpick: "should have" is a thing, and "should've" is a thing. "Should of" is not a thing.

Should of is just how i talk sorry, i know its not grammatically correct, but some times how i talk bleeds in to how i write.

I take what your saying, thats how i read it the first time, but when thought of it earlier i reread the passage and seems to be not enough of a validation.

I say that because in most cases when someone is rendered incapacitated like that the automatic responce is to cling to what you know, thats why i mentioned the second ideal he swore " i will protect those who can not protect themselves" no one at that point needs more protection then elhokar, well maybe his son but same thing.

He sat there, saw what was gonna happen, and did nothing. So he didnt fail to protect him, he didnt try to.

Saying hes brain was broken is going a little far as well, at least i think it is, he just didnt know how to act when two sets of friends fought and wanted to protect both sets.

As it happens i think hes 4th ideal has to be something that allows him to act in moments like that. And thats why couldnt speak it in shadesmar.

Edited by IronBars
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Yeah. He didn't choose to let Elhokar die. He sure as hell failed, but it wasn't intentional. 

I don't have issues with that scene. Between his internal conflict regarding both sides, his severe depression, and everything else, his breakdown makes sense to me, and frankly it was needed. It went through the Shadesmar sequence, and his failure to say the fourth oath led to a much needed development for him in which he was made to realize that the burden is not all on his shoulders. "maybe it's some else's turn to save you." 

Compared to the recon to the ending of WoR, in I have no complaints there. Yes Elhokar died. Yes it was Kaladin's fault. No, it was not a issue for the bond. 

If he had made the decision not to intervene that would be different. He'd be actively choosing not to act. 

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3 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Should of is just how i talk sorry, i know its not grammatically correct, but some times how i talk bleeds in to how i write.

You don't need to apologize to me for my grammar hangups. Although, since "should've" sounds like "should of" (which I assume is how it got started), you could change all your "should of"s to "should've" with zero loss of fidelity to how you talk!

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1 hour ago, Walkerxes said:

Admittedly, I actually like the idea of Dalinar remaining blade/plateless, even if he's actually capable of both. It sort of sets him apart, as well as sort-of forcing him to find ways to solve situations in a manner different from how he did in the past (aka, hit it until it submitted), and perhaps explore his abilities along a different type of path.

Oh I agree, I was just pointing out that the Stormfather's word is not the absolute truth.

30 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Saying his brain was broken is going a little far as well, at least I think it is.

I don't know. He's got PTSD on top of the depression and the internal conflict. That's a heck of a cognitive concoction to be dealing with in a warzone.

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48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Should of is just how i talk sorry, i know its not grammatically correct, but some times how i talk bleeds in to how i write.

I take what your saying, thats how i read it the first time, but when thought of it earlier i reread the passage and seems to be not enough of a validation.

I say that because in most cases when someone is rendered incapacitated like that the automatic responce is to cling to what you know, thats why i mentioned the second ideal he swore " i will protect those who can not protect themselves" no one at that point needs more protection then elhokar, well maybe his son but same thing.

He sat there, saw what was gonna happen, and did nothing. So he didnt fail to protect him, he didnt try to.

Saying hes brain was broken is going a little far as well, at least i think it is, he just didnt know how to act when two sets of friends fought and wanted to protect both sets.

As it happens i think hes 4th ideal has to be something that allows him to act in moments like that. And thats why couldnt speak it in shadesmar.

In the case of the ptsd "battle fatigue" lock up with Kaladin failing Elhokar, it wasn't an unwillingness to act, but that he was literally locked.. this is an actual phenomenon with combatants.. it's neither cowardice or unwillingness, but your mind won't move. Think of a "deer in headlights" scenario.. everything is screaming at you to move, but the adrenaline, which should be prompting your Fight/flight, instead freezes you up.

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Regarding Oathbringer activity on the board: it's about on par with Words of Radiance. The month Words of Radiance came out had 1000 more posts, but, Oathbringer came out November 14th, so the fact that with less time in the month they hit that far is a very good sign. More topics overall have been made in the Oathbringer time period as well.

This is rather good news, as I was worried that the Discord server would decrease activity a lot. I think Discord did lower the amount of posts, but the Discord was absurdly active around November and December. Constant Oathbringer discussion 24/7. So things have changed a bit. 

Just wanted to give my two cents on that from an administrator perspective. 

1 hour ago, Walkerxes said:

In the case of the ptsd "battle fatigue" lock up with Kaladin failing Elhokar, it wasn't an unwillingness to act, but that he was literally locked.. this is an actual phenomenon with combatants.. it's neither cowardice or unwillingness, but your mind won't move. Think of a "deer in headlights" scenario.. everything is screaming at you to move, but the adrenaline, which should be prompting your Fight/flight, instead freezes you up.

Last month I had active shooter training and what the police officer said is exactly this. Extensive training helps prevent that lock up, but in situations you don't know how to handle, you can just lock up. Given Kaladin's care for both groups, it really makes sense to me why this happened, though I can see why someone wouldn't like the scene. 

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9 hours ago, IronBars said:

What i meant is in my opinion, the shadesmar section only really served to keep kaladin away from dalinar for long enough.

Actually, no. Adolin's name come up first within the title page for Part 4 and whoever's name come up first on those always the main focus on interest for the part we are about to read. This has been consistent within every single part within every single book, hence I doubt there is an exception being made here because Kaladin's name didn't come up first. 

Hence, the Shadesmar's arc most definite main purpose was to have Adolin and Maya meet. It wasn't to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar, this is not even a purpose, just a consequence. Of course, a given part always has more than one purpose. Other purposes were world-building and Syl's backstory, but the major part of the Shadesmar arc focused on Adolin feeling out of place and intriguing Maya. It wraps up in a duel function climax: Adolin is wounded which serves to have Maya rescue him and Kaladin refusing to voice out the fourth oath.

All of these arcs work one inside the other, but it false to state Shadesmar merely was an interlude to keep Kaladin away. Besides, had he been in Thaylenah earlier: things would have gone down exactly the same. It is Kaladin who feels he needs to protect Dalinar, but his presence at an earlier time wouldn't have change the course of events in any significant matter. It most definitely is not a purpose for the arc.

9 hours ago, IronBars said:

I really hope adolin does not awaken the blade and become a KR, he is not deserving of being one in my opinion and would sort of belittle what the others have gone through to become one. I'd be fine with adolin awakening the blade if the resulting spren left him then though. There is too many kholin KR already as well.

You've been saying this a lot: how Adolin supposedly doesn't deserve to be a Radiant based on criterion which seems personal to you and not narrative related. Who's to say Adolin doesn't deserve to be a Radiant? Who's to say Dalinar, Renarin, Elhokar, Lift and Szeth deserve it more than him? Adolin has consistently put himself in danger on the behalf of others, he never backed away in front of any challenges, he took a changing world in a stride and instead of pitying himself like other Radiants are quick to do, he focused on what he could do, no matter how small. He has been one of the least selfish and self-centered of all characters. How is it he does not deserve it?

What did Lift did to deserve Wyndle to bond her? She went to the Nightwatcher, she asked an unusual bond and the Nightwatcher took a liking of her. If she did anything noteworthy PRIOR to Wyndle bonding her, the story doesn't say so.

What did Renarin did to deserve Glys? He didn't try to be scholar until he has moved to at least the third oath. When has been learned and giving? When has he shown the same kind of altruism the Stump and Ym have shown? The same interest into other people? 

What did Elhokar did to deserve a spren? Oh so because ONCE in his life he put his personal glory last and strove to do the right thing he's suddenly worthy of being a Radiant? Apparently he was... So how is Adolin less deserving then him?

I could go on, but my point is very few character look like they actually deserved to be Radiants: they weren't chosen based on they worth, they were chosen based on their potential to grow into a given order and THIS Adolin has plenty. And worth.

As for the spren leaving, some readers love to speak of this as if it were a theory, but truth is we know it isn't possible. The only way to revive Maya is through a Nahel Bond, when this happens, Maya is bonded to Adolin.

10 hours ago, IronBars said:

Her failure as veil should never of happened in my opinion because the fracturing of identies due to hiding from truths shouldnt of been a thing because when she spoke the 4th truth at the end of WoR it should of meant she had to embrace it and as a result her story progressed instesd it regressed or stagnated, thats just my opinion.

Your opinion is unfortunately not what the narrative is trying to tell us. Shallan did speak the fourth truth but, as others pointed out, she did it because Pattern forced her to. What we see in OB is the consequence of a Radiant progressing too fast, faster than he/she can manage. Shallan might have spoken the words, but she cannot accept it, hence she spent 1000 pages trying to find ways to not have to deal with it. 

The arc was also meant to mirror Kaladin choosing NOT to speak the fourth oath because he was not ready. Had he done it now, he would have probably regressed too because he wouldn't accept what it means.

10 hours ago, IronBars said:

Regards kaladin/ shallan, i just dont think that should ever of been a thing, it sprang up from no way and made no sense to me.

It didn't spring out of nowhere, they got to know each other and they were curious about each other. What would have happened had the context been different, the story doesn't tell, but it most certainly didn't come up out of thin air.

10 hours ago, IronBars said:

Adolin is a secondary character and should stay that way, when i say he was wasted i meant more that the repurcussions of him killing sadeas was wasted, alot of things could of happened with that.

As i said above i hope if adolin awakens the blade the spren leaves him, he isnt deserving of being a kR and there are already to many kholin radinats. Dalinar, renarin (although dont think he can be called a KR presently), jasnah, shallan by marriage she will be kholin, adding adolin ti that be to much, would mean of 10 orders of KR the kholon family has 5 orders.

Adolin might be a secondary character, but up until OB he had as much page time as Dalinar and a stronger focus into WoR. Not personally liking the character and not wishing him to get more focus is one your own prerogative, but nobody can deny we've been reading more about him than about any other character besides Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan. Some readers are arguing he totally deserves to have a stronger narrative.

This being said, I do agree the consequences of him murdering Sadeas were really disappointing. That's an arc Brandon most certainly dropped and missed the mark with.

Also, the story isn't about 10 characters being members of 10 orders: it is about a bunch of characters, some of them being Radiants. Nothing is set in stone and I personally root for optimum character development. I wouldn't want Adolin not to become a KR BECAUSE he is a Kholin, I want him not to become a KR if this turns out to be the best narrative and the most coherent one with his development. Fortunately (or unfortunately), Brandon did start writing the Blade revival arc, so if not KR, Adolin will at least be... something.

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3 minutes ago, maxal said:

What did Elhokar did to deserve a Spren? Oh so because ONCE in his life he put his personal glory last and strove to do the right thing he's suddenly worthy of being a Radiant? Apparently he was...

I had an idea about that. (And I'm probably wrong, but opinion pieces usually are)

The Desolation is starting to get into full swing, Shadesmar seems to be in a battle for control between Spren and Fused, etc.. I think some of the Spren are willing to take what they can get when they can get it. Elhokar's shown that he can change, and the Spren may have seen more of that while they've been watching him. He'd be surrounded by Radiants in Urithiru, and fellow KR can have a positive influence on those around them. I think that Cryptic took a risk that a different Spren might not have taken in that situation.

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9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I had an idea about that. (And I'm probably wrong, but opinion pieces usually are)

The Desolation is starting to get into full swing, Shadesmar seems to be in a battle for control between Spren and Fused, etc.. I think some of the Spren are willing to take what they can get when they can get it. Elhokar's shown that he can change, and the Spren may have seen more of that while they've been watching him. He'd be surrounded by Radiants in Urithiru, and fellow KR can have a positive influence on those around them. I think that Cryptic took a risk that a different Spren might not have taken in that situation.

It was more of a rhetorical question.... It has been argued Adolin didn't deserve to be a Radiant: my counter-argument is he doesn't deserve it less than many other Radiants. How to we quantify deserve? At times it seems some argumentation are basically saying: "Everyone deserves to be a Radiant, except Adolin". It is one of the reasons I was unsatisfied with his character arc: it answered very little questions and it left too many readers thinking he is not worthy nor broken enough for his dead-Blade.

This being said, I do agree with you. It is basically what I was saying later in the post your quotes. Sprens do not seem to choose based on "worth" or "deserve", they seem to choose individual they think have enough of it in them to maintain oaths. It remains a very subjective process and sprens are not omniscient: they do not always choose the "best possible candidates". It seems they often go with the "I like him/her" and/or "he/she seems good enough".

I find Adolin no more, no less deserving than our average knight. In fact, he probably deserves it more than many just by his attitude.

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2 minutes ago, maxal said:

It was more of a rhetorical question.... This being said, I do agree with you. It is basically what I was saying later in the post your quotes.

I saw that later, but I reply to posts by section as I'm reading them, so by the time I realized, I'd already typed it up, and I just decided to keep it.
Glad we agree, though.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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I'll level with you, Oathbringer was just a little bit underwhelming. I would even go as far as to say that it is currently the weakest installment in the Stormlight Archive.

But that's more because the first two books set the bar really, really high. Oathbringer was still an excellent read.

I would not agree with the claim that it lacked character development, though I might agree that it had less character development than either of the previous two books. It's really hard to pace a book in the middle of a series (Well of Ascension, anyone? Although seriously the ending makes up for the pacing in the middle). It also doesn't help that I feel OB had a lot more hype than the last two. And as Hoid once said, expectation is the soul of art.

 

So yeah. Even if I did not feel Oathbringer was quite as good as the last two, I'd still definitely rate 5/5.

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I had an idea about that. (And I'm probably wrong, but opinion pieces usually are)

The Desolation is starting to get into full swing, Shadesmar seems to be in a battle for control between Spren and Fused, etc.. I think some of the Spren are willing to take what they can get when they can get it. Elhokar's shown that he can change, and the Spren may have seen more of that while they've been watching him. He'd be surrounded by Radiants in Urithiru, and fellow KR can have a positive influence on those around them. I think that Cryptic took a risk that a different Spren might not have taken in that situation.

Not to mention he probably had some good self-truths to face for his ideals which may have been appealing to the Cryptics.. they'd been looking at him for some time, by his comments about shapes in the mirror in WoR.

The question about Adolin though is.. is he broken enough? A person has to be broken for the Nahel Bond to fill in the spaces (as Jasna put it).. Adolin.. hell, he's pretty storming put together.. but maybe reviving Maya will make him an exception. However, broken or not, he's a pretty stand-up human who, I feel, would have no problem living up to Knight Radiant ideals, and in that sense, is highly deserving.

I can agree with the sentiment that "it's too much Kholin", but considering who the Bondsmith is, it does make sense that so many near him would be at the least proto-radiant.

Edit:

Also, considering Dalinar only found out about who killed Sadeus at the end of OB, I suspect we've not seen the last of the Sadeus murder arc, even if it didn't get much play in this book.

Edited by Walkerxes
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1 hour ago, Walkerxes said:

The question about Adolin though is.. is he broken enough?

I'm not sure you want to do that. Have the rabbit hole itself:

Go and have a read, maybe two. If you still feel there's something to discuss, please do.

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1 hour ago, Walkerxes said:

The question about Adolin though is.. is he broken enough? A person has to be broken for the Nahel Bond to fill in the spaces (as Jasna put it).. Adolin.. hell, he's pretty storming put together.. but maybe reviving Maya will make him an exception. However, broken or not, he's a pretty stand-up human who, I feel, would have no problem living up to Knight Radiant ideals, and in that sense, is highly deserving.

While I get that you're agreeing on the deserving part, I have to go on my standard rant about Adolin being broken... Or would have if The One Who Connects hadn't just linked multiple threads containing my rant. 

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