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[OB] Underwhelming


IronBars

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So, I feel duty bound to weigh in since this has grown to 7 freaking pages.

Oathbringer is my favorite book of all times, and the Stormlight Archives is my favorite series of all time. Brandon doesn't concern himself with things as common as linear progression, each of the SLA books has been geometrically better than the previous installment. The Way of Kings was masterful, Words of Radiance was TWoK^2 and Oathbringe was WoR^4.

This is a very large book, and my only real complaint with this book is that it wasn't longer.

The Dalinar flashbacks are the best series of flashbacks in any of the SLA books, and there was never a moment in this book where I wasn't dying to turn the page and find out more. That is masterful storytelling.

Most of the criticisms of this book are purely in the negative, focusing on what didn't happen in OB. This also seems like a criticism that I can agree with, namely that Oathbringer wasn't long enough.

I've yet to read a book where Brandon didn't deliver a satisfying and surprising conclusion to a long hinted at mystery. I think the version of the Recreance that we got in OB was only the details of the actual event that were tailor made to drive a wedge in between Dalinar and the members of the coalition. All of the details that were revealed were set in motion by Taravangian, and we know his primary motive was to undermine Dalinar so that he could take over leadership of the coalition. I think the details hinted at in the Gem archive are closer to the real reason for the Recreance, and we've basically only seen, to draw a parallel to MB, Alendi's path to being the hero of ages. I think there is, as Kelsier would say, always another secret. The onion of the Recreance still has some layers to be peeled before we get to the true reason.

A lot of people seem to be upset by the perceived lack of progression of Kaladin and Shallan, but I think that their story arcs in OB were brilliant. The Girl Who looked up with the continuation of the Girl Who Stood Up is one of the most powerful allegories I have ever read, when Hoid tells a broken Shallan that what sets her apart is that she is the one who stood up, I was deeply moved. This is powerful stuff, and though she wasn't magically fixed by this revelation, it was an important object lesson to learn, that the world is better place because of the fact that even after failing she stands up and keeps trying to make the world a better place. That is progression along a meaningful moral dimension.

Kaladin likewise struggles with his inability to swear an oath because he's not sure he can swear this oath and actually believe in it. I personally think this has something to do with realizing that he can't save everyone, and his inability to believe that this is true about himself is one of his greatest virtues as a hero. I hope that he's a Windrunner frozen at the 3rd Ideal, who continues to try and save everyone and feel deeply when he is unable to do so, this is what makes him who is, this is the thing about him that I think is truly heroic, and I hope that he doesn't trade his ideals in for a set of plate.

We got tons of information about the Unmade, we got to see the Unmade manifest in 2 realms, and the Battle of Thaylen Fields was epic and incredibly well told.

I don't mean to hijack this thread with abundant praise for OB, but I do think that criticizing Oathbringer is like looking at Ghiberti's Gates of Paradise after only 3 of the reliefs were done and criticizing the whole door because it's mostly unadorned. We are only 3 books into what is the most Epic of all Epic fantasy, and I have every confidence in BWS's ability to give the most epic fantasy series ever written the most epic and satisfying ending that has ever been.

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Oathbringer may work as a part of a larger series, but as a standalone novel it stumbles just shy of the finish line. I think calling OB a superior product compared to WoK and WoR is overcompensating for the criticism the book has received. It's as if some people treat criticism of Oathbringer as nothing else than an opportunity to ignore said criticism and drown it under their adulation. 

For one thing, I think it's kind of redundant to say that most critiques of Oathbringer focused on what wasn't there. Yes, that is always a part of criticism. It's also a bit misleading, as there is a lot to say about the plodding pacing of the entire middle section of the book right up to the end of the Shadesmar sequence, its bloated length, its (compared to earlier books) seemingly missing character arcs and so on. Most criticisms I've seen indeed focus on the plodding pace, the bloated length compared to a relatively small amount of character arc progression. Set-up is all fine and good, but whereas WoK and WoR managed to set up future plot points, unlike OB they also managed to have several self-contained arcs for all of the main cast instead of just one. And seemingly incoherent plot points like the Recreance.

Edited by Vissy
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13 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree that the premise is weak, but this falls under the rule of cool for me. The Shadesmar section was cool enough for me to wave away their reason for being there and to wave away the way it did not advance the plot. :)

 

12 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

I think it did advance the plot, though.. because otherwise they'd all be dead. Instead Sja-anat saved them and sent them to Shadesmar. I believe Sja-anat's defection to the side of the radiant's will come in to play further.. beyond being why Renarin and Glys are still "good guys".. considering Sja-anat is the cause of corrupted spren

What i meant is in my opinion, the shadesmar section only really served to keep kaladin away from dalinar for long enough.

The shadesmar section could of been done by jasnah taking shallan, shallan accidently taking adolin there etc, it seemed dragged out only to keep kaladin from dalinar, thats what i meant by saying the premise was weak.

12 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

Also the Shadesmar plot, I believe, was there to further Adolin's relationship with Maya, who he will eventually bring back to life, thus gaining his Radience

I really hope adolin does not awaken the blade and become a KR, he is not deserving of being one in my opinion and would sort of belittle what the others have gone through to become one. I'd be fine with adolin awakening the blade if the resulting spren left him then though. There is too many kholin KR already as well.

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Recreance was not due to a single thing. It was a combination of many things in fairly rapid succession. 

The revelation that they were the invaders, immediately followed by Honor not only confirming that they had destroyed their own world but would destroy this one. Then you have the false desolation continuing the fight that the Heralds promised them was over, and the way in which they ended it by lobotomizing and forcing them to enslave/care for an entire species. 

Altogether it adds up to the Radiants not being who or what they thought. 

Technically this is true. But following on from what @Walkerxes said the difference between previous generations of KR reactioin to the revelations they are the voidbringers and this generation reaction to it is honour so i think thats the real reason.

11 hours ago, Song said:

I can't speak for the mechanics of firemoss addiction, but I think there are very good reasons why Teft spirals out of control in OB.

He is overwhelmed with guilt over the death of his family. Not only did his actions lead to their death, but their belief in the Radiants is now somewhat justified.  They were right, Teft was wrong and they paid for their lives for his mistakes.

Teft is now in a position of power and prestige, and he feels he doesn't deserve it and that he will let everybody down. He gets back into firemoss, which makes him feel even more guilty and scared he will betray Bridge 4, so he uses more and it spirals out of control.

And he is a Radiant, which was exactly what his family wanted. He must have felt so undeserving, as comes through in his dealings with his spren. 

I don't know about the way firemoss works, but there are good reasons why as life gets better for Teft, his grief and guilt grow to a point where he can't cope.

I understand what your saying, i just dont think the level of addiction we see is foreshadowed, so seems out the blue.

What is foreshadowed in my opinion is a much lesser addiction, more in line with a soft drug or alcohol/gambling. Whereas the effects of firemoss to me, seemed more in line with addiction to a hard drug.

Perhaps if was built up more in OB where some of the more likely effects of hard drug addiction are seen i would think different. The jump is just too extreme for me personally 

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I do not quite agree Shallan's character arc could have realistically be condensed to 150/200 pages. There are parts where I agree the narrative could have benefit being shorter and/or supplement with additional viewpoints from characters such as Adolin. For instance, the chapter where Shallan steals food into a lighteyed house wasn't, IMHO, required. I would have much preferred reading Adolin/Elhokar at the party than Shallan being an idiot while stealing food. Or, if it was necessary for the narrative, I would have considerably shortened it. A lot of her "excursions" in Kholinar could have been shorten and Brandon could have find a way to make her dilemma more external. I am honestly surprised Brandon went for three internal arcs given it was one of the element he changed for WoK.

Part of Shallan's arc was to have her "fail" by keeping on lucking out on her skills, by keeping on thinking she knows everything. This was actually a great moment for her character, when she realizes she can't escape reality with her made-up personalities because no matter how much she pushes into them, they aren't real people. Veil is not real, she does not have the background Shallan wishes she has. She can't be Veil. Her arc was certainly not repetitive, but it was over-powering and very internal. Had it been just her arc which had been written out this way, I might have applaud, but the lack of Adolin and the Dalinar/Kaladin also very internal arcs made me dislike it.

I found shallan arcs very repetitive, as you mentioned the uithriu parts could of been trimmed also in kholinar could of been trimmed, because were repetetive. 

Her failure as veil should never of happened in my opinion because the fracturing of identies due to hiding from truths shouldnt of been a thing because when she spoke the 4th truth at the end of WoR it should of meant she had to embrace it and as a result her story progressed instesd it regressed or stagnated, thats just my opinion.

Regards kaladin/ shallan, i just dont think that should ever of been a thing, it sprang up from no way and made no sense to me.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I disagree Kaladin was wasted in the book. He had less page time, this is true and he had a less over-powering story arc, but quite frankly I think this was a necessary change. Not all book could end with him saving the day and killing the big bad guy: it was terribly repetitive and it stopped being interesting after WoR. Kaladin needed to fail and to admit, sometimes, others can do the saving.

My issue with kaladins arc isnt the fact he didnt save the day at the end, he had less page time in favour of more boring characters though, also his trip to find his family/time with his family could of been done better in my opinion, instead he returned to dalinar in uirithu and was just there.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin was not completely wasted, he did start the reviving process with Maya. We did get his backstory and the fleshing of his unhealthy relationship with Dalinar. What we did not get is a character arc of the same quality as other characters, even more minor ones, are getting. His character is too much of a foil and a plot device, after WoR, this was terribly disappointing ans something I wish Brandon would address. 

Adolin is a secondary character and should stay that way, when i say he was wasted i meant more that the repurcussions of him killing sadeas was wasted, alot of things could of happened with that.

As i said above i hope if adolin awakens the blade the spren leaves him, he isnt deserving of being a kR and there are already to many kholin radinats. Dalinar, renarin (although dont think he can be called a KR presently), jasnah, shallan by marriage she will be kholin, adding adolin ti that be to much, would mean of 10 orders of KR the kholon family has 5 orders.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

Szeth comes across as a follower, not a leader. This is why he was such the perfect Truthless: he never questioned orders. He seemed to be the kind of individual who genuinely want to be told what to do. In a world where everyone is lying and being dishonorable, he had no idea who to swear his third oath to. He didn't feel the laws of any country was strong enough, too fallible, so he went for the one individual he feels is honorable enough to be fair. Was it wise? Of course not, but I think it tells us loads about Szeth's personality. He does not want to make the call, but he wants to be attached to someone he'll have confidence will be making the right ones.

As i said previously if he swore to kaladin i wouldnt of minded so much. Swearing to dalinae just made no sense.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I was fine with the number of Bridge 4 viepwoints It was fun to read them, but let's be honest. They are minor characters: they take away page time from more important characters.

Minor characters individually as a whole they are verging on more though and are vastly more interesting then other secondary characters.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

Dalinar questioned the Stormfather and asked him, had he remembered what he did, would he still have chosen him. The answer was uncertain hence, the Stormfather did not know about Dalinar's past because Dalinar couldn't remember it. Without it, he might have made another decision, but too late for that now.

This is exactly why i say the dalinar we knew in tWoK and WoR was a lie, maybe the word fake or sham be better to describe him. 

But i cant see how at the end of OB when after the revelations of dalinars past are made public that kaladin and Szeth would be ok with it as it appears they are at the end of OB and if they dont have a negative reaction in book 4 (we know they should based on past experiences) i feel that wouldnt follow who they are and wouldnt make sense.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, I agree the story could have been trimmed down. Dalinar's chapters had a lot of repetition, but I would have used this page time to give other characters stronger narratives.

Thats my main issue with OB, its really at heart a 600 page story in a 1233 page book

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

Oathbringer may work as a part of a larger series, but as a standalone novel it stumbles just shy of the finish line. I think calling OB a superior product compared to WoK and WoR is overcompensating for the criticism the book has received. It's as if some people treat criticism of Oathbringer as nothing else than an opportunity to ignore said criticism and drown it under their adulation. 

For one thing, I think it's kind of redundant to say that most critiques of Oathbringer focused on what wasn't there. Yes, that is always a part of criticism. It's also a bit misleading, as there is a lot to say about the plodding pacing of the entire middle section of the book right up to the end of the Shadesmar sequence, its bloated length, its (compared to earlier books) seemingly missing character arcs and so on. Most criticisms I've seen indeed focus on the plodding pace, the bloated length compared to a relatively small amount of character arc progression. Set-up is all fine and good, but whereas WoK and WoR managed to set up future plot points, unlike OB they also managed to have several self-contained arcs for all of the main cast instead of just one. And seemingly incoherent plot points like the Recreance.

I couldnt of said it better than that.

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58 minutes ago, IronBars said:

As i said above i hope if adolin awakens the blade the spren leaves him, he isnt deserving of being a kR and there are already to many kholin radinats. Dalinar, renarin (although dont think he can be called a KR presently), jasnah, shallan by marriage she will be kholin, adding adolin ti that be to much, would mean of 10 orders of KR the kholon family has 5 orders.

There is WoB that states that it easier to become a Radiant if you already associate with one, which could be one reason why the Kholins have so many Radiants, and also excuses why we may well see new Radiants spring up around Dalinar and family. Also, I'm not so sure if you could count Shallan as a Kholin Radiant. Yes, she is marrying into the family, but her powers developed long before she met any of the Kholins.

On Adolin, I sort of agree with you, and sort of don't. I'd like to see him resurrect Maya, but it would be terrible if she then turns around and leaves him. At the same time, I'd like to see him continue on as a normal(-ish) character in the world of Radiants. On the other hands, Maya is an Edgedancer Blade/Spren, and out of all of the orders, Adolin fits best with the Edgedancers, or so I believe. There is even a moment of foreshadowing on this in Oathbringer - when he goes to visit Gallant, because Dalinar is too busy ("I will remember those who have been forgotten"), although this could be argued that he went to visit as much for himself as for Gallant.

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14 hours ago, Walkerxes said:

I actually felt that the addition of an Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan love triangle was a copout. She was all about Adolin until falling into the chasm.. not to mention there's nothing in common with Kaladin and Shallan. I felt that the "love triangle" was needless filler for a Kardashian audience. Unnecessary. Lyn would be a way better fit for Kaladin anyway. Shallan is simply the only thing we have for a female protagonist, so hinting at a romance for the man male protagonist (Kaladin) is almost obligatory. So Sanderson toyed with it to meet expectations, then subsequently rejected it because, in the end, Adolin makes the absolute most sense for Shallan. I highly doubt we'll even see a Kaladin romance. It's unnecessary. He's all about protecting people, not wooing the local women.

Fair enough, not everyone likes that stuff.  I wouldn't call people who like it a "Kardashian Audience" though - I mean I liked it and definitely can't stand reality TV of any stripe.  I also wouldn't call it a cop out.  It just makes sense and to me it adds to the story.  

I think you are misunderstanding Kaladin's character if you think he doesn't care about romance.  It's one of his major motivations - most of the time when he thinks about his motivations and himself he thinks about his past romances.  In another thread, people pointed out how Syl often represents Kaladin's repressed emotions and desires.  He has a lot of things that he wants for himself - happiness, family, love, respect, but he will often place his duties first.  I think a major theme in his character development is going to be learning how to balance those things - keeping duty as the most important thing in his life but learning that it's ok for it not to be the only thing.  Syl will point out to him that he is interested in someone like Shallan or Laral and he denies it even though it's obvious that he is interested in them.  She wins the argument against him when he tries to say all he needs are his brothers in battle and he acknowledges that he needs more than that.

All shipping aside, Kaladin will almost certainly have a romance arc of some description.  Personally, I like to see some romance in most books I read.  I like it as a minor subplot, but I like it to be there.  To me if I like a character I want to see a romance arc for them if it makes sense based on who they are and where they are as a character.  If you don't feel that way, I understand.

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1 hour ago, Bort said:

There is WoB that states that it easier to become a Radiant if you already associate with one, which could be one reason why the Kholins have so many Radiants, and also excuses why we may well see new Radiants spring up around Dalinar and family. Also, I'm not so sure if you could count Shallan as a Kholin Radiant. Yes, she is marrying into the family, but her powers developed long before she met any of the Kholins.

I'm not saying shallan will count as a kholin radiant, just meant if adolin becomes one that will be 5 radiants with a kholin last name,  6 if elhokar lived, only navani missing, seems just to much kholin, 

Esp when there is no other light eyes atlethi radiants, i don't think the kholins are much different from the other light eyes in atlethi society so seems over kill.

1 hour ago, Bort said:

On Adolin, I sort of agree with you, and sort of don't. I'd like to see him resurrect Maya, but it would be terrible if she then turns around and leaves him. At the same time, I'd like to see him continue on as a normal(-ish) character in the world of Radiants. On the other hands, Maya is an Edgedancer Blade/Spren, and out of all of the orders, Adolin fits best with the Edgedancers, or so I believe. There is even a moment of foreshadowing on this in Oathbringer - when he goes to visit Gallant, because Dalinar is too busy ("I will remember those who have been forgotten"), although this could be argued that he went to visit as much for himself as for Gallant.

Adolin awakening his sword and becoming a radiant that way would be different than earning a spren in the regular way but i still think would belittle what the others have gone through to claim there spren.

As for adolin and gallant i actually read that more so he felt forgotten/left out and felt companionship with gallant.

Edited by IronBars
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8 minutes ago, IronBars said:

I'm not saying shallan will count as a kholin radiant, just meant if adolin becomes one that wilk be 5 radiants with a kholin last name,  6 if elhokar lived, only navani missing, seems just to much kholin, 

Esp when there is no over light eyes atlethi radiants, i don't think the kholins are much different from the other light eyes in atlethi society so seems over kill.

Adolin awakening his sword and becoming a radiant that way would be different that earning a spren in the other way but i still think would belittle what the others have gone through to claim there spren.

Although if he does... I'm not sure how rank structure works with Radiants, but it seems he'd likely hold a secondary role to Lift, much like Teft does with Kaladin, even though Teft and Kaladin are now at the same stage of ideals. Lift is a Edgedancer already, Adolin is not (yet).. so it's feasible she will stay farther ahead in ideals and thus "lead" the Edgedancers

@agrabes I do actually like romance subplots, and won't be terribly disappointed if Kaladin gets one, although I'm content with the Shallan/Adolin and Dalinar/Navani romances as sufficient.. well and Drehy too :lol:

Edited by Walkerxes
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14 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Adolin awakening his sword and becoming a radiant that way would be different than earning a spren in the regular way but i still think would belittle what the others have gone through to claim there spren.

As for adolin and gallant i actually read that more so he felt forgotten/left out and felt companionship with gallant.

I don't think I explained myself very well there. I'd like to see him resurrect the sword, but I don't want to see him swearing oaths and becoming Radiant. Maya could be his companion, but without the surges. Of course, if it does go this far, everyone will be wondering why he doesn't swear oaths and go 'Full Radiant'.

The Adolin / Gallant scene I take mostly as he is in mourning for Sureblood, I just found it interesting that he is spending time with Dalinar's 'forgotten' Ryshadium, in the same book that he starts to resurrect a Spren whose order has the very oath "I will remember those who have been forgotten." I don't really see how Adolin could have felt 'left out' by that point in OB. He had just been given the job of finding Sadeas' murderer.

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@Walkerxes @Vissy teft being secondary to kaladin is more because of there history in bridge 4 though i think.

If kaladin and teft didnt know eachother i dont think teft would automatically be secondary to kaladin.

The skybreakers also seem hierarchical.

As for the possibilty of adolin being a edgedancer, i imagin each order had to have a leader, whether that leader was decided by power, vote or some other means is anyones guess. Besides someone on the second ideal being lesser then someone on say there 4th ideal of course.

@Walkerxes

If he awakens the blade, he would auto bond the spren i think since that is how she was reawakened in the first place although ideally he awakens the spren and she leaves so he doesn't become a KR

By left out i meant the way everyone was suddenly a KR, evolving so to speak, and he wasn't.

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I agree with IronBars on this one. The reason Teft is second to Kaladin is because that is how it worked out in the bridge crews. Now he has sworn the same number of oaths as Kaladin, it is possible that could change. I don't think it will, but it is possible. The reason I think it will stay the same is because, A, You can only have one leader in a military unit, and the Windrunners are the closest we have seen to a military unit in the Radiants so far, B, because Kaladin is already in charge, so why would Teft want to change that, C, Teft doesn't see himself as worthy of command, and after his rather public failings in Oathbringer, would anyone else, and D, because it has already been said that Teft makes an ideal sergeant. Moving him further up the chain than he already is risks his addiction becoming worse for everyone.

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You might be right, i just dont see him in a warrior role, and see him as more a trainer of lesser radiants and squires, 

I imagine the windrunners more as like king arthurs knights of the round table then, the usual military command structure of general/colonel/sergent/ etc. 

Where as equals the strengths of each windrunner is given to oversee a certain area.

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Only, Teft is already in a warrior type role, and when you see him in action when Kaladin is busy, he doesn't have a problem stepping up to command (WoK, rescuing Dalinar and Co from the Tower, for example. Kaladin charges, so Teft takes over command).

I do agree with you about him training though, but being a good teacher, isn't that a hallmark of a good sergeant? :)

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This is really interesting to read the disappointment with Oathbringer. I don't know, maybe the book really clicked for me, but for me personally I did find Oathbringer superior to both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, and in my opinion it isn't close. I stand by everything I said in the 17th Shard review. I tended to find Way of Kings a lot more filler than killer, whereas Oathbringer goes nearly too fast with killer. It's been a few months since I've read Oathbringer. Maybe my thoughts will change in a few more months after I've absorbed the feedback, but I really loved Oathbringer, and it is my favorite book straight up. I never really felt the middle dragged. Every locale we went to was compelling. 

But I dunno, IronBars, maybe we are just different people with different tastes, because I thought Words of Radiance to be much better than Way of Kings. I remember when that book came out I read a review that said nothing happened in Words of Radiance, which was very confusing to me.

IronBars is certainly entitled to his opinion though even though I disagree with most every point he made, but again, different people have different tastes and that's okay! I find it interesting you liked Moash whereas many really hated Moash sections. (I liked them a lot too.)

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33 minutes ago, Bort said:

I don't think I explained myself very well there. I'd like to see him resurrect the sword, but I don't want to see him swearing oaths and becoming Radiant. Maya could be his companion, but without the surges. Of course, if it does go this far, everyone will be wondering why he doesn't swear oaths and go 'Full Radiant'.

The Adolin / Gallant scene I take mostly as he is in mourning for Sureblood, I just found it interesting that he is spending time with Dalinar's 'forgotten' Ryshadium, in the same book that he starts to resurrect a Spren whose order has the very oath "I will remember those who have been forgotten." I don't really see how Adolin could have felt 'left out' by that point in OB. He had just been given the job of finding Sadeas' murderer.

Actually, if you think about it, he's also fulfilling that Oath with Maya herself.. since the recreance no one knew her name, and they'd even forgotten that shardblades were even once spren at all. Also, I suspect of he does revive Maya, it may go towards redeeming the kr in the eyes of other spren as well, even if he somehow does not become a kr himself...

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2 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

Actually, if you think about it, he's also fulfilling that Oath with Maya herself.. since the recreance no one knew her name, and they'd even forgotten that shardblades were even once spren at all. Also, I suspect of he does revive Maya, it may go towards redeeming the kr in the eyes of other spren as well, even if he somehow does not become a kr himself...

Unless Maya starts making the oaths. "I will remember the one that remembered me."

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@Bort

I didnt mean teft wasnt a capable fighter, just that his main strength at least to me seemed to be as a trainer.

Im not sure about military ranks being honest, just see windrunners as more round table then strict militaristic in nature.

Thats just a feeling i get though i have nothing to support that. 

4 minutes ago, Chaos said:

This is really interesting to read the disappointment with Oathbringer. I don't know, maybe the book really clicked for me, but for me personally I did find Oathbringer superior to both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, and in my opinion it isn't close. I stand by everything I said in the 17th Shard review. I tended to find Way of Kings a lot more filler than killer, whereas Oathbringer goes nearly too fast with killer. It's been a few months since I've read Oathbringer. Maybe my thoughts will change in a few more months after I've absorbed the feedback, but I really loved Oathbringer, and it is my favorite book straight up. I never really felt the middle dragged. Every locale we went to was compelling. 

But I dunno, IronBars, maybe we are just different people with different tastes, because I thought Words of Radiance to be much better than Way of Kings. I remember when that book came out I read a review that said nothing happened in Words of Radiance, which was very confusing to me.

IronBars is certainly entitled to his opinion though even though I disagree with most every point he made, but again, different people have different tastes and that's okay! I find it interesting you liked Moash whereas many really hated Moash sections. (I liked them a lot too.)

Our views on OB seem to be in complete contrast to eachother alright even our view on other entries in SA, from what iv seen OB is the most divisive book so far though, alot feel the same/similiar to how i do, and alot seem to feel the same/similiar to how you do.

That said i dont recall tWoK or WoR being that divisive, also unless im mistaken OB has generated the least debate/theories on here as well.

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3 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

Ohhhh a spren KR! :lol: ..that would probably not work ;)

I'm not so sure. There are many little hints and comments that make me wonder if Shardplate is crafted out of spren that the Radiant Spren attracts, or at least controls/influences.

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1 minute ago, Bort said:

I'm not so sure. There are many little hints and comments that make me wonder if Shardplate is crafted out of spren that the Radiant Spren attracts, or at least controls/influences.

I suspect plate is made from minor spren.. which may actually be what you just said now that I reread it.. it seems there's a pairing, especially evidenced with windrunners and windspren, although we also see gloryspren attracted to Dalinar (even tho SF says he won't ever have blade and plate), and creationspren certainly hang about shallan, even when she's crafting illusions.. I think you're right that these lesser spren will be what makes plate, which is why no one seems upset by plate, when they are by the dead blades

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3 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

I suspect plate is made from minor spren.. which may actually be what you just said now that I reread it.. it seems there's a pairing, especially evidenced with windrunners and windspren, although we also see gloryspren attracted to Dalinar (even tho SF says he won't ever have blade and plate), and creationspren certainly hang about shallan, even when she's crafting illusions.. I think you're right that these lesser spren will be what makes plate, which is why no one seems upset by plate, when they are by the dead blades

Also, Lift will get Lifespren Plate. The Stormfather isn't the only time we hear about Bondsmiths being Shard-free. There was another reference I spotted last night, but I'll be damned if I remember where in OB it was, other than near the start.

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10 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

(even tho SF says he won't ever have blade and plate)

Be that as it may, Dalinar is technically capable of both.

Quote

Questioner
Did every Order of Knights Radiant have Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson
Every Order was capable of Shardblades.


Questioner
Did every Order have Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson
Every Order was capable of it.

Granted, the Stormfather probably has enough power and authority to prevent minor Spren from forming him plate, and he's refusing to become a blade, so Dalinar still might not, but he could.

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