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[OB] Underwhelming


IronBars

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26 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

There are no absolutes. 

You have the right to dislike OB as much as others (like me) loved almost every bit of it. Was it frustrating for Kaladin not to say the 4th ideal? Yes, but it build him a lot as a character. He needs to accept that at some moment, everybody needs help.

I don't mind that kaladin didn't swear the fourth ideal, what i didnt like is for this book, kaladin was relegated to a side note or a support act, which ever way you want to say it, in the first 2 books he was by far the best character so for that to happen in this book in favour of much duller characters was frustrating.

30 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I never liked Shallan, but in OB I loved her interactions with Wit/Hoid. Completly worthy reading Shallan just for those.

I couldnt disagree more with this being honest, 

31 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

Teft and Dalinar arcs were awesome. And no, Teft's addiction is foreshadowed, it doesn't pop up just like that.

Teft being a crack head wasn't foreshadowed, and as i said dalinars flash backs were good but everyone being cool with him being a blood thirsty tyrant made no sense.

32 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I'm on the "loveOB" bandwagon, and I sincerelly hope for you to keep enjoying SA beyond your dislike for how the story was played in this book.

If you loved the book thats a good thing, i just cant say i do when the story/character arcs etc could of been done in half the pages, and when so much that happened is just not believable and more then roughly half the book was filler or fillers sake.

Each to there own.

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59 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Teft being a crack head wasn't foreshadowed

It definitely was, just seems not obviously enough for you to pick up on it. When you next reread WoR, look for many mentions of Teft being gone and no one knowing where he went and Teft saying he can’t be trusted with money. There’s no mention directly of his firemoss addiction (of course as that would be giving it all away), but hints are there we can eventually connect to the problem when revealed in OB. 

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7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

It definitely was, just seems not obviously enough for you to pick up on it. When you next reread WoR, look for many mentions of Teft being gone and no one knowing where he went and Teft saying he can’t be trusted with money. There’s no mention directly of his firemoss addiction (of course as that would be giving it all away), but hints are there we can eventually connect to the problem when revealed in OB. 

You must not have much experience with drug addiction, someone who is that severely addicted to a drug, leaves alot more signs then, going missing for a day or 2 or saying they cant be trusted with money, so no the level of addiction shown in OB, was not foreshadowed, saying it was is just silly

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11 minutes ago, IronBars said:

You must not have much experience with drug addiction, someone who is that severely addicted to a drug, leaves alot more signs then, going missing for a day or 2 or saying they cant be trusted with money, so no the level of addiction shown in OB, was not foreshadowed, saying it was is just silly

Everyone experiences mental health issues (drug addiction included) a little bit differently. Clearly Teft’s drug addiction didn’t align with your personal experience, but I have known some highly functioning addicts, so for me it rung true. You can definitely dislike the arc and not find the foreshadowing adequate for how you believe drug addiction should be portrayed, but it was foreshadowed. It didn’t pop out of nowhere in OB. 

Edited by Dreamstorm
Not drag addiction :)
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1 hour ago, IronBars said:

Teft being a crack head wasn't foreshadowed

In Words of Radiance, the very first time Kaladin is like "Hey, where's Teft?" we immediately cut to Tyn using firemoss. I'm not trying to convince you of anything; that's just something I noticed on a reread that was interesting to me.

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1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Everyone experiences mental health issues (drug addiction included)

Ok first off drug addiction is not a mental health issue at least not in the way you implied it there. Drug addiction can be seen as a mental health issue because being an addict changes the responce of the brain, it is not a mental health issue like depression, sads, schizophrenia are which seems to be how you implied it.

Also while on that topic saying "everyone experiences mental health issues different" to everyone that questions something to do with the issue is while true a cop out. I say this because while its true everyone does experience it different there is also parallels and simularities between everyone so, saying that "everyone experiences it different" is not a strong enough reason to stand on its own.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

. Clearly Teft’s drug addiction didn’t align with your personal experience, but I have known some highly functioning addicts, so for me it rung true. 

There are no highly functional meth/heroine addicts, which is what firemoss is the equivalent of at least in my mind.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

You can definitely dislike the arc and not find the foreshadowing adequate for how you believe drug addiction should be portrayed, but it was foreshadowed. It didn’t pop out of nowhere in OB. 

There are levels to addiction, going missing for a day or 2, not being trusted with money is more and indication of alcohol or gambling addiction.

The level of addiction we see in OB, is far beyond that, teft is at the point hes selling his clothes for the drug.

Foreshadowing of that would of been, more along the lines of teft not eating, losing weight, borrowing money (spheres) trying to rob money (spheres) looting the dead, being shaky/jittery, no energy tired etc etc, so again no it was not foreshadowed, something was foreshadowed but not the level of addiction seen in OB, im not sure how anyone can dispute that.

1 hour ago, digitalbusker said:

In Words of Radiance, the very first time Kaladin is like "Hey, where's Teft?" we immediately cut to Tyn using firemoss. I'm not trying to convince you of anything; that's just something I noticed on a reread that was interesting to me.

Thats a very loose connection, that i admit i dont recall myself, but unless its the very next sentence i dont think it counts as foreshadowing and if only seen it when looked for it or on your however many re reads that cant really be counted as foreshadowing imo

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20 hours ago, IronBars said:

Destroy roshar why ? Because they were the voidbringers

------------------------------------------------------------------

To take Shallan for example she made no improvement she actually got worse, so expecting her to make an improvement after WoR is very reasonable her being worse is not.

In 99% of Oathbringer Shallan is the same as in WoR, and to a certain degree TWoK, her character has not developed at all

to take the first paragraph, after shallan swore the 4th ideal of her radiant order it would be understandable for her to improve from the state she was in, ie identity crisis, hiding from her past, instead she got worse and hid from it more had a bigger identity crisis etc, so that got worse, but its the same issues shes had since WoR and TWoK, so its the same overall, 

so shes the same person with the same frailties (if can call them that) and while those frailties get stronger (worse) in OB, she is actually the same because the fraities are the same

not sure if that will make sense to you or if the wording makes sense its clear in my head at least haha

Just to touch on these to points - destroying Roshar wouldn't necessarily be a deliberate act. The implications are that surgebinding, like the Radiants did, is what was responsible, somehow, for the destruction of their previous homeworld. In order to protect Roshar from the same fate, the Radiants of the time set aside their powers. Don't forget, at the time, it was believed that the final Desolation had been won, so giving up their powers to protect the world from the same fate as the one before? I can see that being a sacrifice they would make. I even think we've already seen what happened to the Humans' previous homeworld in looking at the Shattered Plains, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Secondly, with Shallan, I see a difference between an oath and a truth. Lightweavers make no oath past the first, and speak truths instead. Shallan admitted the truth that was her 4th Ideal, but hasn't accepted it in her heart yet, and the splintering of her personalities we see in OB is her trying not to face up to the truth she spoke, trying to hide from it. Yes, she said the words, admitted the truth, spoke the Ideal, but was she ready to do so? Arguably not, given how it went.

Yes, she is the same person, with the same frailties. The same can be said for all of the Radiants. We see this in Kaladin. Even in his WoK flashback chapters, his father keeps telling him he needs to learn when to care, and when to let go, and here, three books later, we see him fail to progress as a Radiant, because he still hasn't learned his lesson.

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Teft being a crack head wasn't foreshadowed, and as i said dalinars flash backs were good but everyone being cool with him being a blood thirsty tyrant made no sense.

It was, even back in WoK, starting with how he tells Kaladin he will end up betraying his trust, and lo and behold, members of bridge Four die in OB, because Teft was an idiot and sold his coat for firemoss. Also, in WoR with Teft disappearing immediately after their patrol, and 'losing track of time' at the market.

Foreshadowing of that would of been, more along the lines of teft not eating, losing weight, borrowing money (spheres) trying to rob money (spheres) looting the dead, being shaky/jittery, no energy tired etc etc, so again no it was not foreshadowed, something was foreshadowed but not the level of addiction seen in OB, im not sure how anyone can dispute that.

Even this is explained. While a Bridgeman, Teft didn't have the resources to fund his habit. It even mentions that he was able to keep a handle on it for a time in Dalinar's warcamp, but as apparently always happens to him sooner or later, he keeps crawling back. By the time OB rolls around, Teft is earning a hell of a lot more than used to, and so the firemoss is just more and more tempting.

Edited by Bort
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10 minutes ago, Bort said:

Just to touch on these to points - destroying Roshar wouldn't necessarily be a deliberate act. The implications are that surgebinding, like the Radiants did, is what was responsible, somehow, for the destruction of their previous homeworld. In order to protect Roshar from the same fate, the Radiants of the time set aside their powers. Don't forget, at the time, it was believed that the final Desolation had been won, so giving up their powers to protect the world from the same fate as the one before? I can see that being a sacrifice they would make. I even think we've already seen what happened to the Humans' previous homeworld in looking at the Shattered Plains, albeit on a much smaller scale.

They only set the powers aside after learning they were the actual "voidbringers" though, while previous knowledge they could destroy roshar like there previous planet it didnt make them surrender there powers til the voidbringer truth.

10 minutes ago, Bort said:

Secondly, with Shallan, I see a difference between an oath and a truth. Lightweavers make no oath past the first, and speak truths instead. Shallan admitted the truth that was her 4th Ideal, but hasn't accepted it in her heart yet, and the splintering of her personalities we see in OB is her trying not to face up to the truth she spoke, trying to hide from it. Yes, she said the words, admitted the truth, spoke the Ideal, but was she ready to do so? Arguably not, given how it went.

Yes, she is the same person, with the same frailties. The same can be said for all of the Radiants. We see this in Kaladin. Even in his WoK flashback chapters, his father keeps telling him he needs to learn when to care, and when to let go, and here, three books later, we see him fail to progress as a Radiant, because he still hasn't learned his lesson.

Its not enough to say the words, you have to mean them, we see this will kaladin and the 4th ideal he couldnt speak the 4th ideal because he couldnt really mean it.

Shallen should of been the same with her 4th ideal/truth, to say it you have to embrace it, mean it, live it etc, she did the opposite so she either shouldnt be on the 4th ideal stage or she can lie and advance through the ideals that way.

Thats how i see it, if thats not the case then was no need for her to say the 4th ideal/truth atal......

Edited by IronBars
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I think the knowledge that the humans were the original Voidbringers and that they had destroyed their previous homeworld were part of the same parcel, not two separate facts dropped on them with a huge time gap.

Might I suggest you reread the end of WoR? In particular the scene where Shallan admits the truth about her mother. She is kinda pushed into it by Pattern and by circumstance and situation.

Also, you replied before my edits were complete, but if you check my last post again, I've touched on your problems with Teft, and yes, it is entirely possible to be a fully functional addict. Maybe not with the likes of heroin, but I took firemoss to be more like cannabis.

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I think the main reason Oathbringer has elicited such a different reaction from the other books is that in it (similar to The Last Jedi), the good guys fail.  A lot.  Kaladin fails to save Elhokar, fails to say the 4th ideal.  Much of the Western Roshar is lost; Kholinar is not freed; Thaylenah is wrecked.  Past Dalinar makes terrible/evil decision after terrible/evil decision.  Present Dalinar proves completely inept at holding together the coalition.  Shallan fails throughout the whole book, disastrously so.  What happened with her giving food to that urchin literally made me feel sick.  

Most of the time, in any media, the good guys win more often than they lose.  When they don't, it seems strange.  However, it opens up much more interesting storylines for the series as a whole, and will likely prove to be the right decision in the end.  

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3 hours ago, Bort said:

I think the knowledge that the humans were the original Voidbringers and that they had destroyed their previous homeworld were part of the same parcel, not two separate facts dropped on them with a huge time gap.

I didnt take it that way, but you might be correct.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

Might I suggest you reread the end of WoR? In particular the scene where Shallan admits the truth about her mother. She is kinda pushed into it by Pattern and by circumstance and situation.

Syl was also pushing kaladin into speaking the 4th ideal.

Besides being pushed shouldnt make the fact you need to mean it embrace it for it to work any less true.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

Also, you replied before my edits were complete, but if you check my last post again, I've touched on your problems with Teft, and yes, it is entirely possible to be a fully functional addict. Maybe not with the likes of heroin, but I took firemoss to be more like cannabis.

Firemoss is def not the equivalent of cannabis.

3 hours ago, Bort said:

Even this is explained. While a Bridgeman, Teft didn't have the resources to fund his habit. It even mentions that he was able to keep a handle on it for a time in Dalinar's warcamp, but as apparently always happens to him sooner or later, he keeps crawling back. By the time OB rolls around, Teft is earning a hell of a lot more than used to, and so the firemoss is just more and more tempting.

I answered that in the post above, teft had access to spheres he never tried rob them etc the foreshadowing didnt foreshadow what we see in OB.

 

 

3 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think the main reason Oathbringer has elicited such a different reaction from the other books is that in it (similar to The Last Jedi), the good guys fail.  A lot.  Kaladin fails to save Elhokar, fails to say the 4th ideal.  Much of the Western Roshar is lost; Kholinar is not freed; Thaylenah is wrecked.  Past Dalinar makes terrible/evil decision after terrible/evil decision.  Present Dalinar proves completely inept at holding together the coalition.  Shallan fails throughout the whole book, disastrously so.  What happened with her giving food to that urchin literally made me feel sick.  

Most of the time, in any media, the good guys win more often than they lose.  When they don't, it seems strange.  However, it opens up much more interesting storylines for the series as a whole, and will likely prove to be the right decision in the end.  

Personally i think its because it was time to change from the previous 2 books, and instead it was just the same.

Also to much didnt add up in the story, to much didnt make sense from everything before. Was just a poor installment.

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2 hours ago, IronBars said:

What we saw in tWoK and WoR of Dalinar was a lie.

"A hypocrite is nothing more than a man who is in the process of changing." —Nohadon

Get to age 53/54 like Dalinar, and tell me: are you the same person you were 34 years ago? 18 years ago? Even 6 years ago? There's a difference between "living a lie" and being "a changed man." Amaram illustrates projecting a lie quite well in the first two books, while Dalinar has always felt more genuine.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

I also liked Szeth in the book, my point with him was it made no sense for him to swear the 3rd ideal of the Skybreakers based on Dalinar when he didn't know him, someone said he swore it because Dalinar's reputation, I'm not sure which reputation that is though, the one where Dalinar is a bloodthirsty tyrant or the one where hes gone mad, either way makes no sense, and if Szeth doesn't react to the revelations about Dalinar in book 4 then that is ridiculous.

I posted the WoB about it, so technically Brandon said it.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It wasn't about being a Bondsmith. It was partially about how everyone reacted to Dalinar and partially... Let's see if I can explain this. Definitely part of it was what he had seen and things like this. Part of it was how everyone, like-- he knew about Dalinar, right? He had fought Kaladin a couple of times. My own justification for it when I was writing this, 'cause I actually did think about this one, like, Dalinar has a magnetism to him. And Dalinar has a reputation. And Dalinar lived up to the reputation, and Szeth was just looking for something-- The reputation was in some ways more important than the man. For instance, there's a chance in that same situation that Szeth would have followed Amaram. Right? Fortunately he made a better choice than that but-- Anyway.

Szeth wanted to be right. He doesn't know for sure if he is yet, but from seeing how others react to Dalinar, how others speak about him, etc.. he felt that this was finally the right choice. That's why Brandon brings up the Amaram bit. Sure, Kaladin and Co. know Amaram's honorable act is an act, but do the common people? Do the foreign/minor nobles? How long had they known each other before Dalinar learned Amaram's true nature? Logically, Dalinar should know Amaram better than most anyone, so seeing how Dalinar felt about Amaram before they split, that would've painted a positive picture in Szeth's head. The things Szeth implied from others whom he felt should "know more" about Dalinar, combined with what Szeth already knew, are what drove that decision.

As I said before, the choice is understandable, even if it wasn't smart. That's the kicker here. You are rattling on about the smart decision with the benefit of hindsight. You know all these things about Dalinar that so few other people did at the time. Szeth crafted a mental picture of Dalinar's character from how others talked about him, how others spoke to him, etc.. The characters in a book don't have the full picture like we do, which takes us back to the Amaram example. We the readers, through Kaladin, knew that Amaram was a scumbag. But if we didn't have that knowledge, we'd think he was a better person from the way Dalinar and others talk about/to him. That's what happened with Szeth here.

Szeth hasn't been purposely tricked, he isn't acting stupid, he's not acting nonsensical, he's simply making a choice with an incomplete picture. Military commanders do it all the time, do we say their decisions didn't make sense? No, we say they did their best with what they knew at the time.

19 hours ago, IronBars said:

Destroy Roshar why? Because they were the Voidbringers.

They didn't invade Ashyn now did they? They were the good guys there, and they destroyed it anyway. That is the only thing that matters in the "Voidbringer" revelation.

They had these powers on Ashyn, and they abused them(somehow), and wrecked the planet. Their god told them this, and is also telling them that they will repeat that action on Roshar. They then learned that they "invaded" Roshar in the process of fleeing another planet that was torn apart by a disaster of their own making. They realize that Honor isn't making it up/exaggerating, they really did destroy a planet with their powers. Thanks to the Desolations destroying written record, they probably assume that they had the Spren Bond and the Ideals back on Ashyn too. That would mean that they thought they destroyed a planet while still following the Ideals(Honor certainly seemed to think that would happen to Roshar in spite of the Ideals).

Add to that what happened to the Listeners and the Shattering of the Plains, and they are starting to see proof that they can do great damage while still maintaining their Bonds, still being the "good guys." Then when they consider Jezrien's "we won" declaration, the capture of Bo-Ado, and the incapacitation of the Listeners, they realized that they have no one else to fight but themselves. With the Desolations, there was a period of fighting and a period of rebuilding because the enemy would quite literally be gone after they won. But if they fight amongst themselves, the enemy never leaves, and the fighting would never stop. They start to imagine that a civil war probably led to destroying Ashyn, and realize they may be on the path to another one on Roshar. With the Desolations "finished," there's a lot more peace-time for Radiants to reforge ties to their homelands, and that breeds tensions with other Radiants when their respective homelands go to war.

Imagine if Tukar invaded Emuli back then. Would an Emuli-born Windrunner be Oathbound to "protect" their people? A KR on the battlefield would be just as destructive as Blackthorn Dalinar, if not more, so Tukari casualty numbers might get pretty high. What happens when a Tukari-born Radiant learns that one of his fellows was slaughtering his people? What if a Reshi-born Edgedancer decides to help in the medical tent during an Alethi-Reshi border dispute? On a geopolitical scale, what happens when world leaders see the KR appearing to be "taking sides" in conflicts? The only safe play for the organization as a whole would be to not get involved, but that's gonna strain ties between the people of Emul/Tukar and their native KR.

Individual Radiants are gonna have to decide between their Organization and their Homelands. The KR as a whole are gonna be forced to decide between their Neutrality and their Unity. What about the Squires, who aren't bound by Oaths yet? Individual KR of the same order have always been able to disagree on issues and oaths, and this will only make it worse. Look at Kaladin's dilemma in early Oathbringer, and imagine every Windrunner going though that: "Is it right to defend my people? What if they are the aggressors in this battle? Do I switch back and forth based on who's attacking and who's defending? What about wars in countries that I have no ties to? Lots of countries are at war, and I can't be everywhere at once.. where do I go?" Dustbringers arguing internally and externally over who's authority to be "obedient" to: their nation, their king/queen, the Bondsmith, their order, etc.. Bondsmiths struggling to maintain some semblance of unity as everything(orders, nations, peoples) crumbles around them. The list goes on..

In the face of all this, that "invasion" was merely the missing piece of the puzzle, the little push that set the dominoes in motion. Given enough time, that push could have come from elsewhere. Perhaps the strain broke a few KR's Bonds one day, showcasing a very real threat to them. It might be going slowly, but it was happening. Maybe next time an entire Order goes. How would the KR(or the world) be changed if suddenly, there were no more Windrunners? Would the remaining Orders be able to learn from it, or would the damage have been done?

They had to take action before it got that bad, but what could they do? They were being pulled in a different direction at every turn, to the point that doing anything while being a KR could weaken/break their Bond. This is what I see as the cause of the Recreance. No single event, but the combination of everything was piling up, limiting their options until the only winning move was not to play. Without the Desolations, the KR saw a world that no longer needed the Nahel Bond, so they decided to end it on their own terms, rather than resisting it until they snapped. The in-book revelations seem like weak reasons because they're just pieces, and the truth requires tying these revelations together.

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49 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Firemoss is def not the equivalent of cannabis.

I'm curious as to why you've drawn this conclusion. Kaladin knows of firemoss and its medicinal use in WoR. He turns it down as a pain killer because he's aware of its addictive qualities, but it was still accepted by the surgeons for use even with its drawback.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Firemoss

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31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

"A hypocrite is nothing more than a man who is in the process of changing." —Nohadon

Get to age 53/54 like Dalinar, and tell me: are you the same person you were 34 years ago? 18 years ago? Even 6 years ago? There's a difference between "living a lie" and being "a changed man." Amaram illustrates projecting a lie quite well in the first two books, while Dalinar has always felt more genuine.

Ok dalinar didnt change he became someone else because what made him the other person was taken away.

That is completely unrelated to what you just said there, there not even similiar.

So the dalinar we seen in tWoK and WoR, is infact a lie.

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I posted the WoB about it, so technically Brandon said it.

Szeth wanted to be right. He doesn't know for sure if he is yet, but from seeing how others react to Dalinar, how others speak about him, etc.. he felt that this was finally the right choice. That's why Brandon brings up the Amaram bit. Sure, Kaladin and Co. know Amaram's honorable act is an act, but do the common people? Do the foreign/minor nobles? How long had they known each other before Dalinar learned Amaram's true nature? Logically, Dalinar should know Amaram better than most anyone, so seeing how Dalinar felt about Amaram before they split, that would've painted a positive picture in Szeth's head. The things Szeth implied from others whom he felt should "know more" about Dalinar, combined with what Szeth already knew, are what drove that decision.

As I said before, the choice is understandable, even if it wasn't smart. That's the kicker here. You are rattling on about the smart decision with the benefit of hindsight. You know all these things about Dalinar that so few other people did at the time. Szeth crafted a mental picture of Dalinar's character from how others talked about him, how others spoke to him, etc.. The characters in a book don't have the full picture like we do, which takes us back to the Amaram example. We the readers, through Kaladin, knew that Amaram was a scumbag. But if we didn't have that knowledge, we'd think he was a better person from the way Dalinar and others talk about/to him. That's what happened with Szeth here.

Szeth hasn't been purposely tricked, he isn't acting stupid, he's not acting nonsensical, he's simply making a choice with an incomplete picture. Military commanders do it all the time, do we say their decisions didn't make sense? No, we say they did their best with what they knew at the time.

Ok, brandon seems to struggle to explain this himself,  and imo it still doesnt make sense to do what he did, it would of made more sense to swear to kaladin then dalinar, 

And ok il get over he swearing when didnt know dalinar, but if Szeth and indeed kaladin except what dalinar was and what he really did (as appears so at the end of OB) then that goes against who they are and is bs.

Your point with the radiants is fine, but to sum up thats why they had the ideals to guide them, the point of the radiants was to fight what they thought were the voidbringers so yes they would stay out of countries figbting, unless to step in when goes to far imo.

31 minutes ago, Draigon said:

I'm curious as to why you've drawn this conclusion. Kaladin knows of firemoss and its medicinal use in WoR. He turns it down as a pain killer because he's aware of its addictive qualities, but it was still accepted by the surgeons for use even with its drawback.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Firemoss

I say that because of the effects the firemoss has on the people we see use it, 

Opium (where heroin comes from) was also used to treat pain in the past and its where we get morphine from

Edited by IronBars
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2 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Ok Dalinar didn't change he became someone else because what made him the other person was taking away.
That is completely unrelated to what you just said there, there not even similar.

So the Dalinar we seen in tWoK and WoR, is in fact a lie.

The only things I remember from Middle School are that I started growing in 6th grade while everyone else grew during 8th grade, I knew a girl named Danielle, and I had a conversation with ... someone about Star Wars at some point. If something else happened during those 3 years that made me who I was during High School, I don't remember it anymore. And in about a decade, the influence of such unknown events wont hold any sway over who I am.

What if someone has head trauma or nerve damage and forgets a defining chunk of their past? Or if those memories fade naturally, like mine did? Those events wont hold as much sway over who they become in the future as they did when they remembered them. Imagine if someone re-watches home videos of events from their past, or revisits their old hometown, and that helps faded memories to bloom. How is Dalinar any different? Just because Dalinar lost those memories through magical methods, does not mean that the man he forged himself into without those memories is a lie.

Infinity Blade Spoilers(haven't done this in a while)

Spoiler

Take Ausar. He was Ausar the Vile, a murderous, callous tyrant for untold millennia. He worked with an equally callous, and far more ancient figure for much of that time. Conquering the world, destroying the world, rinse, repeat.

The way the Deathless function is that they are reborn when they get killed(like the Heralds, now that I think about it). Their QIP(the soul, so to speak) was strengthened so it could survive the death of the body, and it could inhabit a new one, grown and cloned from the original.

But our more ancient friend had even more ideas. He's the one who originally strengthened the QIP with tech, letting him grant the immortality to others if he chose. That tech preserves multiple things, chief of them memory. He messed with his tech, allowing him to force a rebirth onto a Deathless, but repressing their memories. When Ausar inevitably betrayed him, that happened to him. Ausar lived many lifetimes without most of who he used to be, and the lack of that past combined with his new experiences changed who he was as time went on.

He started to regain those repressed memories as he went through familiar places, people, etc... but that didn't suddenly make him Ausar the Vile again. He had many new experiences that changed who he was, and those helped temper the return of those tyrannical tendencies.

Dalinar regained his past memories, but that didn't suddenly make him the bloodthirsty Blackthorn again did it? You talk about it as if the things he did while missing memories mean nothing. Those experiences still happened, and they affect who he is just as much as those stolen memories do when he regains them.

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I think about the only thing I agree on with the op is crackhead Teft.. I found that a bit annoying. However I recognize it was there to show that he was "broken" and therefore a viable candidate for radiance. Also perhaps to show he may be getting more limelight in the future over some of the more "faceless" bridge 4 members.

As for the Diagram.. is it the Diagram that's been incorrect, or their interpretation of it? I'm going with interpretation. Taravangian, even in his interlude chapter where he's highly intelligent, still doesn't come close to the man he was when he wrote the Diagram, and noticed even then that they'd seen things incorrectly in previous translations. Although at this point, any Diagram interpretation that bets against Dalinar, he should probably throw out the window, as every time he follows one of those courses, Dalinar comes out on top. 

In all, I was actually very pleased with Oathbringer.. did I want to slap the crap out of Kaladin in a couple spots? Definitely, but then that's no different from the other two books. Shallan too. But seriously, Lift ran about calling Szeth "crazy face".. what's not to like there? 

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Here's the deal that I've seen with every complaint about OB, and you said it in your first post. 

The problem isn't the story itself, which if you don't like for what it is fine. The problem is expectation. 

Kaladin isn't the main character, he's one of a cast. The main complaint is his reduced arc though. Which I find odd, as the build up of the Parsh as people instead of cartoon villains, and his wanting to defend them leading up to his failures was a beautiful arc. In the back 5, he's going to be a more minor character like Jasnah, so this is something people need to get used to. 

For Shallan, I'm not sure what people expected, but swearing an oath doesn't mean you have to get better. We have Savants as one way in which we've seen progression does not equal progress. Even the the back of the book mentions that the bond can widen the cracks in the soul. 

For Adolin this is the major thing. The community built up the repercussions of Sadeas' death into a major story, but Adolin has never been a major PoV character. He's always been there to supplement the others, and the storyline made perfect sense. Sadeas death sparked the Midnight Essence, which confused the issue, and then Adolin was placed at the head of the investigation ensuring it went no where. The political strife of nothing being done made the ending with the Sadeas army possible. For Adolin personally, he worked himself constantly to avoid thinking about it, and in the end decided he wasn't sorry. It all made perfect sense but it wasn't the story people expected. 

The complaints I've seen, both here and from others, are a result of wanting the story to progress one way, and creating their own disappointment. 

My only issues with OB are some pacing problems. It's not Brandon's greatest ever, but the characters progress naturally other than Moash's abrupt 180.

Drop the expectations before you start reading and it's a pretty good book. Go in thinking it's a different story than your getting... 

Edited by Calderis
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13 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The only things I remember from Middle School are that I started growing in 6th grade while everyone else grew during 8th grade, I knew a girl named Danielle, and I had a conversation with ... someone about Star Wars at some point. If something else happened during those 3 years that made me who I was during High School, I don't remember it anymore. And in about a decade, the influence of such unknown events wont hold any sway over who I am.

Ok that is completly irrelevant.

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

How is Dalinar any different? Just because Dalinar lost those memories through magical methods, does not mean that the man he forged himself into without those memories is a lie.

It actually does.

He forged himself into that man, because and only because he had the menories taken away. If they werent taken away he wouldnt be that person..

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Dalinar regained his past memories, but that didn't suddenly make him the bloodthirsty Blackthorn again did it? You talk about it as if the things he did while missing memories mean nothing. Those experiences still happened, and they affect who he is just as much as those stolen memories do when he regains them.

Again, he wouldnt of been that man without the memories being taken.

What your saying is basically if they found hitler today, and he spent the last 70 years working with disadvantaged kids in argentina it makes up for what he did, no it doesn't. He still is who he was and deserves to be punished for who he was regardless of who he became. 

Dalinar when regained his memories nearly broke him - kaladin who is sworn to uphold honour, protect the weak etc and szeth, sword to obey the law etc can not turn around and be ok with who dalinar was regardless of who he became (because and only because his memories were taken.

19 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

I think about the only thing I agree on with the op is crackhead Teft.. I found that a bit annoying. However I recognize it was there to show that he was "broken" and therefore a viable candidate for radiance. Also perhaps to show he may be getting more limelight in the future over some of the more "faceless" bridge 4 members.

As for the Diagram.. is it the Diagram that's been incorrect, or their interpretation of it? I'm going with interpretation. Taravangian, even in his interlude chapter where he's highly intelligent, still doesn't come close to the man he was when he wrote the Diagram, and noticed even then that they'd seen things incorrectly in previous translations. Although at this point, any Diagram interpretation that bets against Dalinar, he should probably throw out the window, as every time he follows one of those courses, Dalinar comes out on top. 

In all, I was actually very pleased with Oathbringer.. did I want to slap the crap out of Kaladin in a couple spots? Definitely, but then that's no different from the other two books. Shallan too. But seriously, Lift ran about calling Szeth "crazy face".. what's not to like there? 

If you liked the book thats great.

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 For Adolin this is the major thing. The community built up the repercussions of Sadeas' death into a major story, but Adolin has never been a major PoV character. He's always been there to supplement the others, and the storyline made perfect sense. Sadeas death sparked the Midnight Essence, which confused the issue, and then Adolin was placed at the head of the investigation ensuring it went no where. The political strife of nothing being done made the ending with the Sadeas army possible. Fr Adolin personally, he worked himself constantly to avoid thinking about it, and in the end decided he was sorry. It all made perfect sense but it wasn't the story people expected. 

I actually found Adolin's arc extremely satisfying. He knows he's not a major player, and yet strives to do his best within the role he's been given. And then actually beginning to form a bond with his shardblade.. learning her name.. it's obvious that he will one day return her to life and become a radiant (I assume edgedancer by her physical appearance in shadesmar). 

I was hoping we'd see a bit more from Shallan's proto-squires.. I was looking forward to Gaz growing his eye back.. alas, next book.

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here's the deal that I've seen with every complaint about OB, and you said it in your first post. 

The problem isn't the story itself, which if you don't like for what it is fine. The problem is expectation. 

Kaladin isn't the main character, he's one of a cast. The main complaint is his reduced arc though. Which I find odd, as the build up of the Parsh as people instead of cartoon villains, and his wanting to defend them leading up to his failures was a beautiful arc. In the back 5, he's going to be a more minor character like Jasnah, so this is something people need to get used to. 

For Shallan, I'm not sure what people expected, but swearing an oath doesn't mean you have to get better. We have Savants as one way in which we've seen progression does not equal progress. Even the the back of the book mentions that the bond can widen the cracks in the soul. 

For Adolin this is the major thing. The community built up the repercussions of Sadeas' death into a major story, but Adolin has never been a major PoV character. He's always been there to supplement the others, and the storyline made perfect sense. Sadeas death sparked the Midnight Essence, which confused the issue, and then Adolin was placed at the head of the investigation ensuring it went no where. The political strife of nothing being done made the ending with the Sadeas army possible. Fr Adolin personally, he worked himself constantly to avoid thinking about it, and in the end decided he was sorry. It all made perfect sense but it wasn't the story people expected. 

The complaints I've seen, both here and from others, are a result of wanting the story to progress one way, and creating their own disappointment. 

My only issues with OB are some pacing problems. It's not Brandon's greatest ever, but the characters progress naturally other than Moash's abrupt 180.

Droo the expectations before you start reading and it's a pretty good book. Go in thinking it's a different story than your getting... 

Ok this is just wrong.

Iv said it numerous times for a 600 page book, the story contained within OB would be fine, boring, but fine, for a 1233 its not. Your meant to have expectations going into reading book, your expectations not being met concerning the story or character arcs happens lots in books but the direction they go surprise you and you see how it got there, you see why makes sense etc, this is not the case with OB.

The whole OB book fell flat.

The problem with OB is its a 600 page book with 633 pages of filler that did nothing for the story. 

tWoK and WoR while large progressed the story and progressed character arcs, and while could of been trimmed down didnt have over 50% filler in the books.

People don't agree its fine, but people just dont seem to agree just because its sanderson which is wrong, hes your favourite author - great - that doesnt mean everything he touches is gold.

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10 minutes ago, IronBars said:

If you liked the book thats great.

What I find odd is that, for all your complaints about some characters moving backwards, you praise the Moash arc. A character who's gone so far backwards since Way of Kings, that it has become a forward progression. Instead of learning how to move beyond his past like the rest of Bridge 4 are striving to do, he turned around and fully embraced it, even after Kaladin showed the "righteousness" of his own cause in WoR, becoming a Radiant right before Moash's eyes... something that would have inspired Moash if it happened in twok, instead.... he runs off with graves and later decides that killing the king is still cool, because it's "not his fault".. now he's being set up as, essentially, Kaladin's nemesis. The guy who rescued him in the first place. You don't get more backwards than that.

And yet, I'm very looking forward to, I hope, their eventual showdown in the future.

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3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Ok first off drug addiction is not a mental health issue at least not in the way you implied it there. Drug addiction can be seen as a mental health issue because being an addict changes the responce of the brain, it is not a mental health issue like depression, sads, schizophrenia are which seems to be how you implied it.

Also while on that topic saying "everyone experiences mental health issues different" to everyone that questions something to do with the issue is while true a cop out. I say this because while its true everyone does experience it different there is also parallels and simularities between everyone so, saying that "everyone experiences it different" is not a strong enough reason to stand on its own.

There are no highly functional meth/heroine addicts, which is what firemoss is the equivalent of at least in my mind.

There are levels to addiction, going missing for a day or 2, not being trusted with money is more and indication of alcohol or gambling addiction.

The level of addiction we see in OB, is far beyond that, teft is at the point hes selling his clothes for the drug.

Foreshadowing of that would of been, more along the lines of teft not eating, losing weight, borrowing money (spheres) trying to rob money (spheres) looting the dead, being shaky/jittery, no energy tired etc etc, so again no it was not foreshadowed, something was foreshadowed but not the level of addiction seen in OB, im not sure how anyone can dispute that.

You appear to have a very specific idea of what firemoss is, how one should react to the addiction and how it should have been portrayed.  Unfortunately this doesn't seem to jive which the ideas of the guy who invented the concept of firemoss in the first place B)  You also seem very set in your ways about how every addict to non-fantasy substances should react to addiction.  You'd be surprised at the functionality of some people who are addicted to even heroin or meth; body chemistry varies, and people respond differently.  It seems like the book disappointed you immensely to the point where you can't even consider looking at any of the plots/characterization differently, though.

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5 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Ok this is just wrong.

Iv said it numerous times for a 600 page book, the story contained within OB would be fine, boring, but fine, for a 1233 its not. Your meant to have expectations going into reading book, your expectations not being met concerning the story or character arcs happens lots in books but the direction they go surprise you and you see how it got there, you see why makes sense etc, this is not the case with OB.

The whole OB book fell flat.

The problem with OB is its a 600 page book with 633 pages of filler that did nothing for the story. 

tWoK and WoR while large progressed the story and progressed character arcs, and while could of been trimmed down didnt have over 50% filler in the books.

People don't agree its fine, but people just dont seem to agree just because its sanderson which is wrong, hes your favourite author - great - that doesnt mean everything he touches is gold.

It may be because I do audiobook, but I felt like the book flew by, filler and all. Or that I found the filler interesting enough to keep me.. invested..no pun intended.

But then in twok.. how many fewer bridge runs could have been put in? To me that was the slowest-paced of the 3 so far.. to the point I cringed every time a Kaladin backstory chapter came up.

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14 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

What I find odd is that, for all your complaints about some characters moving backwards, you praise the Moash arc. A character who's gone so far backwards since Way of Kings, that it has become a forward progression. Instead of learning how to move beyond his past like the rest of Bridge 4 are striving to do, he turned around and fully embraced it, even after Kaladin showed the "righteousness" of his own cause in WoR, becoming a Radiant right before Moash's eyes... something that would have inspired Moash if it happened in twok, instead.... he runs off with graves and later decides that killing the king is still cool, because it's "not his fault".. now he's being set up as, essentially, Kaladin's nemesis. The guy who rescued him in the first place. You don't get more backwards than that.

And yet, I'm very looking forward to, I hope, their eventual showdown in the future.

Moash is a very realistic character, vengence for wrongs perseved or real has been one the driving forces for as long as time itself.

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I feel exactly the opposite. I don't know what your calling filler, because my issues with the pacing is that despite it being a 1200 page book, so much was crammed into it that much of it felt rushed. 

 

Book 5 was rushed, the rest dragged and alot was unnessasry.

12 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

You appear to have a very specific idea of what firemoss is, how one should react to the addiction and how it should have been portrayed.  Unfortunately this doesn't seem to jive which the ideas of the guy who invented the concept of firemoss in the first place B)  

You invented fire moss ?

12 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

  You also seem very set in your ways about how every addict to non-fantasy substances should react to addiction.  You'd be surprised at the functionality of some people who are addicted to even heroin or meth; body chemistry varies, and people respond differently.  It seems like the book disappointed you immensely to the point where you can't even consider looking at any of the plots/characterization differently, though.

As i said previously if your addicted to a drug to the point your selling your clothes to feed your habit then you are not ligbtly addicted to a drug you are heavily addicted to it, now yes people behave differently but there is more in common between individual addicts then differences at that point.

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