[OB] Underwhelming

[maxal]

1 hour ago, XenosHg said:

 General consensus I've seen so far, including my expericence up to book 7 is: The first several books are not great at all, being stereotypical fantasy with bad characters, then it gets more experimental so the quality drops, then author gets very ill and it really shows, and then he died and B.Sanderson didn't do his books justice.

You have to keep in mind Robert Jordan started writing WoT in the mid-80s. So while yes, the first book are telling a rather stereotypical narrative with traditional characters, it has been written during a time period where nothing else existed. To his credit, Robert Jordan shinned by including several prominent leading female protagonists just as he was bold enough to write a matriarchal society at a time where fantasy wasn't exactly exploring those themes.

So is it stereotypical? Yeah, quite, but it is nearly four decades old and it still remains the most amazing piece of world-building within fantasy.

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, IronBars said:

Ya, but pruning suggests little changes were made to guide growth in a certain direction.

You should really look up the definitions of words before you misuse them. To Prune is to remove unwanted or superfluous parts from something. That's it.

If I removed unwanted weeds from my garden(and did nothing else), am I guiding the growth of the other plants in my garden? No. But I am still pruning my garden. Mowing the grass doesn't influence/guide the growth of the grass in the slightest, but I am still pruning. i am removing unwanted parts(long/uneven grass) from something(my yard).

I can prune without guiding. I can prune with guiding. I can guide without pruning. I can guide by pruning. They are not mutually exclusive, and doing one does not, and should not, imply doing the other.

But I'll indulge the question anyway:
If I put a barrier in the ground and cut away every bit of the plant that crosses that barrier, I'd say that I "guided" the plant to grow in a different direction.
Dalinar's memories are the part of him that crossed that barrier, and they were cut away. With that old path now lost to him, his personal growth went along a different pathway.

On 3/16/2018 at 8:50 AM, IronBars said:

It was erased from his mind, completely. The Nightwatcher changed him fundamentally, not slightly.

I'd consider losing something as minor as a few memories as the slight change, as opposed to losing one's sight/hearing/limbs.

One's limbs or eyes are just as fundamentally part of who they are as their memories, if not more. You'd have to go about life quite a bit differently if you went blind, or if you lost an arm. But we lose memories all the time as we get older, and that doesn't change us that much by comparison.

On 3/16/2018 at 8:50 AM, IronBars said:

He didn't become that person, he was molded into to that person by outside forces.

This sentence literally accomplishes nothing.

If he changed himself into a good person because he chose to, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because of societal pressure, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because someone convinced him that he was wrong before, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because he couldn't cope with being a bad person, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because he lost his memories of being a bad person, then he still became that person.

I could do this all day. All you are doing is changing the middle of the sentence, while the start and end are what matter.

5 hours ago, IronBars said:

Reforged would be a better word then "pruned" and more accurate, because everything that made him, him at that point was taken away, he was made an entirely different person, not just a slightly better person, not a much better person, an entirely different person. 

Like a blade with to many impurities in it, gets melted down and reforged into something entirely new/different.

Dalinar was still Dalinar(mostly) after the visit with the Nightwatcher. From my understanding, there wasn't anything "magically" in place to prevent him from going back into battle and back to conquering if he so chose. He made the decision to seek out the Nightwatcher, he made the decision to try and become a better person. All Cultivation did was get rid of the hardest hurdles to get over on that path to becoming a good person. But it was Dalinar who walked that path, and it was Dalinar who chose to walk that path.

You are acting like she gave him complete memory loss and turned him into a blank slate, which is definitively not what happened, and I am very confused as to why you feel this way. Feel free to point me towards passages from the book that support your view to correct my understanding, as that'd end this argument real quick.

[IronBars]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

You should really look up the definitions of words before you misuse them. To Prune is to remove unwanted or superfluous parts from something. That's it.

Ok, i really don't appreciate the tone you seem to have here, or the implied suggestion i don't know what a word means. Maybe you need to re google pruning because what you said there is only one interpretation of the word "pruning"

From cambridge english dictionary.

to cut off branches from a tree, bush, or plant, especially so that it will grow better in the future:

to reduce something by removing things that are not necessary

collins english dictionary

the process of cutting off unwanted branches

the cutting of inessentials

As you can see all 4 of those is a method of guiding the direction in which something progresses, i hope you find that illuminating.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

If I removed unwanted weeds from my garden(and did nothing else), am I guiding the growth of the other plants in my garden? No. But I am still pruning my garden. Mowing the grass doesn't influence/guide the growth of the grass in the slightest, but I am still pruning. i am removing unwanted parts(long/uneven grass) from something(my yard).

I can prune without guiding. I can prune with guiding. I can guide without pruning. I can guide by pruning. They are not mutually exclusive, and doing one does not, and should not, imply doing the other.

This doesn't really make any sense, as pruning implies guiding growth or any of its opposites you care to apply by the very defintion of the word, im not sure how you say it doesn't ??

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

But I'll indulge the question anyway:
If I put a barrier in the ground and cut away every bit of the plant that crosses that barrier, I'd say that I "guided" the plant to grow in a different direction.
Dalinar's memories are the part of him that crossed that barrier, and they were cut away. With that old path now lost to him, his personal growth went along a different pathway.

Hes growth went a different way because he was not who he was, not because a memory or 2 was taken from him.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

.I'd consider losing something as minor as a few memories as the slight change, as opposed to losing one's sight/hearing/limbs.

One's limbs or eyes are just as fundamentally part of who they are as their memories, if not more. You'd have to go about life quite a bit differently if you went blind, or if you lost an arm. But we lose memories all the time as we get older, and that doesn't change us that much by comparison.

This sentence literally accomplishes nothing.

There is a massive difference between losing memories over time, and having a huge part of who you are (at that moment) suddenly vanish.

Im not even sure how you can compare the two situations.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

If he changed himself into a good person because he chose to, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because of societal pressure, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because someone convinced him that he was wrong before, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because he couldn't cope with being a bad person, then he still became that person.
If he changed himself into a good person because he lost his memories of being a bad person, then he still became that person.

I could do this all day. All you are doing is changing the middle of the sentence, while the start and end are what matter.

None of those options are the same as what happened.

He didnt choose to become anything, thats the point he was made into someone else.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Dalinar was still Dalinar(mostly) after the visit with the Nightwatcher. From my understanding, there wasn't anything "magically" in place to prevent him from going back into battle and back to conquering if he so chose. He made the decision to seek out the Nightwatcher, he made the decision to try and become a better person. All Cultivation did was get rid of the hardest hurdles to get over on that path to becoming a good person. But it was Dalinar who walked that path, and it was Dalinar who chose to walk that path.

You are acting like she gave him complete memory loss and turned him into a blank slate, which is definitively not what happened, and I am very confused as to why you feel this way. Feel free to point me towards passages from the book that support your view to correct my understanding, as that'd end this argument real quick.

I don't think she gave him complete memory loss, she took everything that made him who he was at the moment, and blocked/hid/took it away, she didnt just take the memories of his wife and rathalas, she took everything influenced by Odium, that is the difference, thus making him an entirely different person.

How you imagine deleting the memory of rathalas affected such a change is mind boggling to me, 

Edited March 17, 2018 by IronBars

[Calderis]

@IronBars what she did is still pruning.

For example, I have a newly planted tree in my backyard that we obtained from a nursery. The are branches in it that with growth are going to begin rubbing against each other and it will harm the future growth of the tree. So I need to wait a year or two to let the tree establish a good root system, and then the pruning that I'm going to have to do is going to remove nearly a third of the visible tree growth. Pruning is not just minor changes. 

With Dalinar, a significant portion I the memories that defined his personality were removed. This immediately changed him and allowed him to grow into a different person. You may see that differently, but it still fits into the definition of pruning.

There is a popular mental image of pruning, of a gardener snipping away tiny pieces of a tree or plant. That is common, and probably the most prolific way in which it occurs, but larger and more aggressive pruning is not uncommon. 

[IronBars]

Your right @Calderis large scale aggressive pruning does happen, but rarely is the "core" of what is being "pruned" changed correct ?

Whereas in Dalinars situation it was.

So he wasnt "pruned" (guided) to becoming someone else he was reforged into someone else.

That is a stark difference.

Edited March 17, 2018 by IronBars

[The One Who Connects]

18 minutes ago, IronBars said:

to cut off branches from a tree, bush , or plant, especially so that it will grow better in the future

to reduce something by removing things that are not necessary

the process of cutting off unwanted branches

the cutting of inessentials

As you can see all 4 of those is a method of guiding the direction in which something progresses, i hope you find that illuminating.

Definition 1 is the only one that actually mentions affecting how something progresses, and that's used as an example. The other three are variations on what I said; removing something unnecessary. The act of pruning is removing things you deem as unnecessary. The purpose of that pruning is where how it progresses comes in(sometimes), but the "why" is not necessary to define pruning.

27 minutes ago, IronBars said:

This doesn't really make any sense, as pruning implies guiding growth or any of its opposites you care to apply by the very defintion of the word, im not sure how you say it doesn't ??

See above.

33 minutes ago, IronBars said:

There is a massive difference between losing memories over time, and having a huge part of who you are (at that moment) suddenly vanish.

Fair enough. But "suddenly losing a huge part of who he was"? Even though you're pretty much right, you sound like a hypocrite, since you've dismissed me for trying to use something like that as an example before.

On 2/19/2018 at 11:28 AM, IronBars said:

On 2/19/2018 at 11:06 AM, The One Who Connects said:

What if someone has head trauma or nerve damage and forgets a defining chunk of their past? [....] How is Dalinar any different? Just because Dalinar lost those memories through magical methods, does not mean that the man he forged himself into without those memories is a lie.

It actually does.
He forged himself into that man, because and only because he had the menories taken away. If they werent taken away he wouldnt be that person..
[...]
What your saying is basically if they found hitler today, and he spent the last 70 years working with disadvantaged kids in argentina it makes up for what he did, no it doesn't. He still is who he was and deserves to be punished for who he was regardless of who he became. 

It really looks like you are ignoring what I'm saying sometimes. I know you probably aren't doing that, but I'm starting to get that vibe from you again.

55 minutes ago, IronBars said:

He didnt choose to become anything, thats the point he was made into someone else.

And is the Dalinar who left the Nightwatcher's Den the exact same person as he was just before he began regaining his memories? No, he isn't, because you are, yet again, ignoring the fact that people change over time.

On 2/19/2018 at 11:06 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Dalinar regained his past memories, but that didn't suddenly make him the bloodthirsty Blackthorn again did it? You talk about it as if the things he did while missing memories mean nothing. Those experiences still happened, and they affect who he is just as much as those stolen memories do when he regains them.

Man devotes many years of his life to war and combat. Man gets struck by lightning(as one example) in foreign country, suffers head trauma, and loses large swaths of memories of his past, including most of the bloodshed. Man starts living the quiet life while recovering, settles down and starts a family. Many years later, the man's country gets invaded, the man sees a bloody battle and is horrified by it. War goes on and the man sees many more bloodbaths. Man decides to devote himself to preaching peace because "nothing could be worth this."

Is the man who he is now because of that memory loss? Technically, yes. Is it possible for this change to happen in people who have not lost their memories? Yes.

The pathway that Dalinar's life took after losing those chunks of his past was decided by Dalinar. The man in my example didn't suddenly become a pacifist because of the memory loss. That decision was his own. I could rewrite the example with the man to show it without memory loss: How many survivors of WWI do you think abandoned war entirely in the face of the horrors of chemical warfare? They didn't lose a chunk of who they were like Dalinar, but they made a massive 180 anyway. Had Dalinar encountered an experience that shook him to the core like that, then he could have become the man he currently is without the memory loss.

[IronBars]

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The purpose of that pruning is where how it progresses comes in(sometimes), but the "why" is not necessary to define pruning.

We will need to agree to disagres on that, 

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Fair enough. But "suddenly losing a huge part of who he was"? Even though you're pretty much right, you sound like a hypocrite, since you've dismissed me for trying to use something like that as an example before.

It really looks like you are ignoring what I'm saying sometimes. I know you probably aren't doing that, but I'm starting to get that vibe from you again.

In that post i said, he is only who he is now because his "memories" were taken, so im not sure what you mean there, more was taken from Dalinar then memories, he was changed at a core level, not just losing a memory or two.

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

And is the Dalinar who left the Nightwatcher's Den the exact same person as he was just before he began regaining his memories? No, he isn't, because you are, yet again, ignoring the fact that people change over time.

No he isn't the same man, because he was remade into a man capable of becoming who we see in WoK, WoR, without Cultivations intervention he would of been unable become who we see.

18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The pathway that Dalinar's life took after losing those chunks of his past was decided by Dalinar. The man in my example didn't suddenly become a pacifist because of the memory loss. That decision was his own. I could rewrite the example with the man to show it without memory loss: How many survivors of WWI do you think abandoned war entirely in the face of the horrors of chemical warfare? They didn't lose a chunk of who they were like Dalinar, but they made a massive 180 anyway. Had Dalinar encountered an experience that shook him to the core like that, then he could have become the man he currently is without the memory loss.

It was decided by Dalinar, but only because Cultivation removed all of Odiums influence, which allowed Dalinar to become more then he could of without cultiavtions intervention.

It wasnt just removing memories, she changed everything that made Dalinar Dalinar at that time, because everything Dalinar was was Odiums influence,

The difference in our arguments seem to be you think a few memories were taken, and i think memories and alot more were taken, ie odiums influence.

The fact Dalinars brother recieved the stormfathers visions long before Dalinar backs this up.Dalinar was not worthy of them,why ? Because he was being groomed as Odiums champion, and until cultivations intervention he was not worthy, the core of Dalinar was changed to the point he went from unworthy to having the potential to becoming worthy which he eventually did, that is more akin to reforging then pruning because the core was altered

[RShara]

Guys, I think there's a fundamental disagreement of principle terms that won't be reconciled, here.  Which is fine.  But at this point, we're going around in circles.  Maybe time to bow out?

[XenosHg]

13 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Be fair now: Mat and Lan are pretty cool.

I like Mat since he stopped dying in book 3. He's not the sharpest tool, but there's a lot of good moments around him.

 

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Jordan started writing WoT in the mid-80s

Yep. book 1's about half a year older than me. That's always an impressive time category. Not modern, not ancient, just stuff you barely missed.

[hotrod71nova]

I really liked books 1 through 3 of the WOT saga. 4-6 were a little on the slow side. Any good audio books suggestions for like a trilogy series you guys recommend? How''s white sand? I just read the small sample and liked what I read. Elantris I think had a lame magic system, but other then that I liked it ok....your right it was a weaker book, compared to the others lol. 

[Korbin]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:10 AM, XenosHg said:

 General consensus I've seen so far, including my expericence up to book 7 is: The first several books are not great at all, being stereotypical fantasy with bad characters, then it gets more experimental so the quality drops, then author gets very ill and it really shows, and then he died and B.Sanderson didn't do his books justice.

Uhm... Wow... I don't really see how you get that view Jordans "weak" books from 8-10 were weak for him but still AMAZING books! Book 11 which was the last book written by Jordan is my 3rd to favorite book behind WoK and book thirteen in WoT. Books 4-7 are absolute masterpieces and books 1-3 set up the masterpiece that is wheel of time. Sure some of the books are "weak" in comparison but there weakness actually ads to the series. Not every book can be amazing some HAVE to be set up books!

[SallyA]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:24 AM, IronBars said:

Ya, but pruning suggests little changes were made to guide growth in a certain direction.

This isn't the case with Dalinar, he wasn't guided to become who he was in WoK/WoR, he was remade to be the person in WoK,WoR, that is a very different thing to "pruning" imo.

Reforged would be a better word then "pruned" and more accurate, because everything that made him, him at that point was taken away, he was made an entirely different person, not just a slightly better person, not a much better person, an entirely different person. 

Like a blade with to many impurities in it, gets melted down and reforged into something entirely new/different.

Me thinks you go a bit too far in thy analogy!

The man himself is not lost, he is struggling to maintain his core against the corruption of the Thrill!!  And the moments when he lost his balance in battle after being led away, ambushed and very nearly killed!  The events leading to the burning of the city are the fault of the act, imvho, but the Blackthorn does not give himself this insight! 

In his overwhelmed state he continues to slide into emotions and wine leaving rationality, because it does not serve to assage his consciousness.

He goes to the Nightwatcher, she removes his memories and the man himself sets about reforging his life.  He does it, its in his hands, its his will and personal power.  That he has an extended waltz with bacchus and the grape (Fruit of the vine! Grapes are almost invasive!!), that is sad for his recovery, but then he has been touched by one of the ancient unmade, and on the spiritual level that might be quite the daunting experience!

I think its a good arc, he is a strong character, and he actually does mature, a lot!   He demonstrates good military, kingly ideas and actions, but for my 2cents, he stays pretty much himself.  For my part, excision might have been more accurate than pruning, but for young readers that is an uncomfortable Google!

It amazes me that we all find it so easy to read and involve ourselves in this work with such personal attention and depth of commitment.  Its a few gold stars for the author, no doubt!

[Korbin]

23 hours ago, hotrod71nova said:

trilogy series you guys recommend?

This may seam like a young series but I listen to Artemis Fowl and I find it super fun. Both Mistborn era 1 and 1.5 (if you haven't read them yet. LOTR (Lord of the Rings) If you havn't read it yet. Any of the Dune Trilogies are amazing! and there's tons more.

[SallyA]

19 minutes ago, Korbin said:

This may seam like a young series but I listen to Artemis Fowl and I find it super fun. Both Mistborn era 1 and 1.5 (if you haven't read them yet. LOTR (Lord of the Rings) If you havn't read it yet. Any of the Dune Trilogies are amazing! and there's tons more.

The last couple of DUNE books were nice.

Given the new authors, and the fact that the home planet of the Bene Geserit became home to a sand worm and all the other necessary constituents!!  . . . It will now become a desert world . . . Do you have any ideas where the story line will go? 

Do you think they will ever free themselves of the Stone Burners?

It would be interesting to compare systems, but not polite at all.  Huzzah for great authors and great books!

[hotrod71nova]

So I'll check that out, I have read the other books. I really liked lord of the rings, it' amazing how much terry brooks borrowed from that series for the sword of shannara

[StrikerEZ]

@IronBars

I know this thread is really old by now, but I feel like I understand why you think everyone is getting mad at you. 

I just spent about 6 hours reading through this thread (it would've been far less, but that accounts for stopping to eat, do chores, etc.). One thing I've noticed that you've been doing in this thread is that you've been very hypocritical. You claim that people are simply saying things without evidence (which is not true, by the way), when you generally tended to do the same thing. It surprises me how much you claimed that forums like this are supposed to be about discussing these books, but you are just so unwilling to budge on most of your opinions. 

I actually agree with several of your complaints about the book, but I don't think they are as bad as you claim them to be. And as for Dalinar, I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you about him since you seem so convinced that he was fundamentally changed by Cultivation when all she did was take away some memories, allowing him to make the change himself. 

I should probably stop now before I get too mad. 

[Stark]

On 3/17/2018 at 1:56 PM, maxal said:

So is it stereotypical? Yeah, quite, but it is nearly four decades old and it still remains the most amazing piece of world-building within fantasy.

We're at the point where the line blurs between the story being stereotypical and the story creating the stereotypes, I think.  WoT falls into some stereotypes from previous fiction, most assuredly.  But also as Maxal points out, it broke new ground and opened new areas that had never been explored before.  Were these explorations needed? Yes. In hindsight, are they perfect? No, not always.  Did they create entirely new stereotype and tropes when subsequent authors derived their ideas from WoT? Absolutely.

 

Reading WoT starting in High school and finishing when the final book came out in University was pretty defining for my fantasy reading.  It set the bar for a lot of my worldbuilding standards, though not in an unforgiving way.  It holds a special place in my memories.  Do I re-read it with a nostalgia haze? Maybe a little, but I'm also aware of the flaws in the story, and love it despite them - no matter how many eye-rolls or frustrations some of the flaws or characters cause.

 

But I think it is important to distinguish between stereotypes it fell into, and stereotypes it created because no one had done anything like it before.  Yes, the female leads often felt one or two dimensional, and that is not great.  Female leads, depending on the author, have progressed significantly since then.  But it WoT tried, and had a few of the first truly powerful Matriarchies we had seen in fantasy as well as outright matriarchal societies.  Does that excuse the misteps? No.  But it helps put them in perspective.

 

But accusing a piece of work of falling victim to the stereotypes, or tropes, it created feels kinda silly.  It reminds me of all the people who were trying to find more music from this "new" and "unheard of" band after the Thor Ragnarok trailers came out.  Pieces of work from 30-40 years ago do need to be evaluated using current standards, but they also need to be evaluated in context of the standards of the time.

 

If I was reading Wheel of Time for the first time now, I'd have a lot more issues with it than I did when reading it 18 years ago.  Part of that is how I've matured as a reader, and part of it is how the genre has matured.  Context does not excuse flaws, but it does help understand how they came about.

[IronBars]

@StrikerEZ

Thanks i guess for taking the time to read through all the pages of this thread.

Everyone has there own equally valid opinion on aspects of OB and on OB as a book, whether you or anyone agrees or disagrees is neither good or bad.

My opinion is my opinion and i don't need to budge on it as you put it, just because someone else thinks/reads/interprets something different to me. No ones opinion is more valid than my own, and my opinion isn't more valid than anyone else's, group consenus on a topic isn't a valid reason for changing ones opinion.

I can explain each opinion i expressed if you want to discuss it, you don't need to agree with them though.

As for Dalinar, i find it strange so many think all that was taken from him was "some memories" as you put it, maybe im wrong but seems to me alot more than that was taken.

No need to get mad either, just a difference of opinion. 

[hotrod71nova]

I agree....these are all people's opinions. You can make an argument, valid or not, and someone can accept it or not. This thread wasn't meant for a bunch of people to who don't see it Iron Bar's way, to try and come in and force him to change his opinion. I mean hell i get irriated when religous people knock on my door and try to force feed me their religion, and don't take a polite refusal to go away. I took this thread for those of us who didn't like the third book, to converse and discuss why we didn't like it and why. Like I said before, the first 2 books are epic. This 3rd is a pile of crap(my opinion), does that mean the rest of the books are gonna suck? No, most likely they will be great books and this might be an oddity. Now I'm gonna make like an underwater fart bubble, and get the heck outta here before the lynch mob shows up(joking).  One question for those who follow. In what order do you have your favorite books in this series. For me the 1st book is the best, the 2nd is close to it and the 3rd is way far south. I'm curious to see if anyone liked the 3rd book more than either of the first two. My thoughts are, not many. Those first 2 books are just too dam good. 

[Ammanas]

I am relistening to Oathbringer and have come to the conclusion that if a author wants to sacrifice plot development for other elements  (such as world building and character development) that author must have magnificent prose; which is not one of Brandon's strengths as he has a very workmanlike style of writing.

I think a interesting parallel is Tad Williams. I am currently reading the second book of his Shadowmarch quartet and he is able to pull of "not much happening" better then Oathbringer because I believe he is a better wordsmith and employs better prose in his series.

 

[StrikerEZ]

19 hours ago, hotrod71nova said:

I agree....these are all people's opinions. You can make an argument, valid or not, and someone can accept it or not. This thread wasn't meant for a bunch of people to who don't see it Iron Bar's way, to try and come in and force him to change his opinion. I mean hell i get irriated when religous people knock on my door and try to force feed me their religion, and don't take a polite refusal to go away. I took this thread for those of us who didn't like the third book, to converse and discuss why we didn't like it and why. Like I said before, the first 2 books are epic. This 3rd is a pile of crap(my opinion), does that mean the rest of the books are gonna suck? No, most likely they will be great books and this might be an oddity. Now I'm gonna make like an underwater fart bubble, and get the heck outta here before the lynch mob shows up(joking).  One question for those who follow. In what order do you have your favorite books in this series. For me the 1st book is the best, the 2nd is close to it and the 3rd is way far south. I'm curious to see if anyone liked the 3rd book more than either of the first two. My thoughts are, not many. Those first 2 books are just too dam good. 

For me, it's hard for me to choose a favorite. I like WoK because the story was just so good and the ending was fantastic. Plus, Tien's death is still the first and only time a book has ever made me cry. I really like WoR because it just increased the awesomeness and scope of the story and still had a fantstic ending. I like OB because, in spite of all of its flaws, the good parts of the story were freaking amazing. The Shadesmar sequence, Dalinar's flashbacks and Unity at the end, Adolin and Maya, Venli, and Kaladin's arc of trying to accept failure were my favorite parts of the book and, in my opinion, more than made up for the flaws in the love triangle and the slight pacing issues near the middle. Even though Shallan isn't my favorite character and it was hard reading her go down that dark path, it felt very believable to me. I feel that she will become a better character by the end of the front 5, at least, because of this. And though I do agree that the marriage was perhaps a bit too early, I think it will make for a better story for Shallan and Adolin to make the relationship work-both the good and the bad. 

My favorite book based on pure content alone would probably have to be WoR, if I'm honest. But OB is my true favorite because it has so many epic moments and arcs and makes so many more promises for interesting developments in the coming books. 

[hotrod71nova]

21 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

For me, it's hard for me to choose a favorite. I like WoK because the story was just so good and the ending was fantastic. Plus, Tien's death is still the first and only time a book has ever made me cry. I really like WoR because it just increased the awesomeness and scope of the story and still had a fantstic ending. I like OB because, in spite of all of its flaws, the good parts of the story were freaking amazing. The Shadesmar sequence, Dalinar's flashbacks and Unity at the end, Adolin and Maya, Venli, and Kaladin's arc of trying to accept failure were my favorite parts of the book and, in my opinion, more than made up for the flaws in the love triangle and the slight pacing issues near the middle. Even though Shallan isn't my favorite character and it was hard reading her go down that dark path, it felt very believable to me. I feel that she will become a better character by the end of the front 5, at least, because of this. And though I do agree that the marriage was perhaps a bit too early, I think it will make for a better story for Shallan and Adolin to make the relationship work-both the good and the bad. 

My favorite book based on pure content alone would probably have to be WoR, if I'm honest. But OB is my true favorite because it has so many epic moments and arcs and makes so many more promises for interesting developments in the coming books. 

Yea, and I agree with most of that. For me, the ending to Wok and WoR were just a big fist pump moments. I haven't had a book like that, and haven't since. Maybe that' why the first 2 are so special to me. The Tien portion was very powerful, and I do admit, I like dalinar story arc. Took a bit to warm up to, but once I did. I enjoyed it. Shallam just feels fake as hell to me and kaladin depression doesn' feel authentic. I try to buy into it but just cant. It feels forced onto characters, that I felt either out grew it, or shouldn' have had it to begin w. Great reply tho, I totally get where your coming from. 

[StrikerEZ]

3 hours ago, hotrod71nova said:

Yea, and I agree with most of that. For me, the ending to Wok and WoR were just a big fist pump moments. I haven't had a book like that, and haven't since. Maybe that' why the first 2 are so special to me. The Tien portion was very powerful, and I do admit, I like dalinar story arc. Took a bit to warm up to, but once I did. I enjoyed it. Shallam just feels fake as hell to me and kaladin depression doesn' feel authentic. I try to buy into it but just cant. It feels forced onto characters, that I felt either out grew it, or shouldn' have had it to begin w. Great reply tho, I totally get where your coming from. 

Yeah, I can definitely understand that part about Shallan and Kaladin. But, for me at least, their mental problems feel very real to me.

I understand Shallan's struggle with pretending to be different people because I definitely act differently depending on who I'm around, where I am, etc. Of course, I'm no where near as bad as her, but I can relate to her struggles. As much as it pained me to read her struggle so hard, I felt that it was really well written. 

As for Kaladin, I really relate with his depression. Even though I haven't been clinically diagnosed with depression, I feel like I can relate with Kaladin's struggles and how he feels is very similar to how I feel when I feel depressed. It's that constant struggle of not feeling happy, even when you have every reason to. And when something bad does happen, like what happened in Kholinar, I can definitely understand the state he ended up in.