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What about the Voidspren and Renarin


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It was Renarin, though he wasn't framing Dalinar persay, just... not stepping forward and revealing himself. He let Dalinar think it was him because, I'm guessing he was afraid. I'll need to get a source on this, but I'm pretty sure we got it confirmed that Renarin is conscious during his glyphwriting -- unlike Dalinar's theory about himself, because Dalinar thought that he was blacking out and writing -- but Renarin is not fully in control of his body. That one is fairly obvious, since writing glyphs is not something he would choose to do on his own.

 

(I have just checked with the source on that. Yep. It's correct. Hopefully the full source will be publically posted soon!)

 

Also, I've gotten confirmation that, even aside from the having a spren/being a Radiant reveal, Brandon said that part of the reason we're not seeing Renarin POVs is that this is going to be covered in his flashback book. So there's that to chew on.

 

I'm wondering how much the future sight is a surgebinding trait though. What we know about the Truthwatchers implies that this is an ability of their order, and the way Renarin speaks about "I see," so, does it run on Stormlight? Could he do it willingly if he absorbed Stormlight from a sphere, and it hits him during storms because he can't get away from the Light that's coming from the storm? We haven't seen any other surgebinders absorbing and using stormlight against their will, though we have seen Kaladin and Shallan surgebind unintentionally. Is that what's going on here? Is Truthwatching a process that, once unintentionally started, cannot be stopped even if the Surgebinder wants to -- as would surely be the case with Renarin? We'll have to see. There's a lot of unknowns still. 

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Dalinar and Kaladin have both been drawn into highstorm visions against their will. I think this is just Renarin's version of a highstorm vision.

That makes Shallan break the pattern though. I didn't notice anything weird happening to her during storms, except that Pattern would make strange noises. Maybe she needs to try drawing during highstorms.

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  • 1 year later...

The Vorin church which just happened to be very anti Knights Radiant and everything about them. But perhaps their is truth behind it to an extent. What if Odium used to give people visions of the future to make them lay the path for him to come and Desolate the world?

This sounds very much akin to the actions of Ruin during the days of The Final Empire. Subtly influencing those of Scadrial to free him based on false prophecy. A Shard capable of splintering other Shards may well be able to corrupt the foretelling abilities of a user of investiture.

 

 

Perhaps the Truthwatchers are as much about filtering out Odium's influence regarding visions of the future as everything else. If they can see Odium's future's as well as Honor/Cultivations then they might have to be the ones to decypher the "truth"

This would make the Surgebinding of Truthwatchers akin to using tin, where mastery comes not with gathering information, but with filtering that information.

Edited by Squigy
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Renarin is a lot like Eshonai's sister. They both have a sibling of the same sex who is very good at fighting and contributes a lot to their people during the war. They're both scholar like and in a martial society, they will have great chances to envy their siblings and may want to sacrifice anything to be better than those siblings. Renarin may not be seen as jealous, but his mood is definitely far from positive.

 

Seeing how Eshonai's sister is doing, I think it will not be strange if Renarin becomes something similar if not the same.

 

He does not have or use powers a Truthwatcher has like Ym does. However, he is supposed to be able to see into the future. Yes, two magic systems can mix to give something unexpected, but you have to be able to wield those two magics right?

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He does not have or use powers a Truthwatcher has like Ym does. However, he is supposed to be able to see into the future. Yes, two magic systems can mix to give something unexpected, but you have to be able to wield those two magics right?

Who says he can't wield those magics? He healed his eyes, for exemple, and may or may not have used Illumination to slip into Dalinar's bedroom to write numbers on the wall.

Just because we don't see something does not mean it is not there.

Plus, Radiants having some form of clarividence or extra sensorial perception is not unprecedent, since we have seem Shallan drawing the surviving sailors and Shallash, or Kaladin riding the Storm in his dreams. Renarin's visions may be a bit more forceful, but may be a similar phenomenon.

Edited by DreamEternal
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There is a WoB that he states that doesn't necessarily mean that. Just because a guy may have a spren that identifies as male, does not automatically mean he is gay.

If it is the WoB I am thinking about, it was actualy a non-answer saying there is something going on, but not what.

Although I do hope it is not something as superficial as everyone(minus Dalinar, as far as we know :ph34r:) getting a spren of the sex they feel attracted to.

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If it is the WoB I am thinking about, it was actualy a non-answer saying there is something going on, but not what.

Although I do hope it is not something as superficial as everyone(minus Dalinar, as far as we know :ph34r:) getting a spren of the sex they feel attracted to.

Yeah we are referring to the same WoB, but I never got the hang of searching for them, otherwise I would quote it. 

 

I agree. Seems eh to me to be done that way, and I feel the matches should be more focused on the personalities of the surgebinder and spren rather than what their sex is. 

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Yeah we are referring to the same WoB, but I never got the hang of searching for them, otherwise I would quote it.

I agree. Seems eh to me to be done that way, and I feel the matches should be more focused on the personalities of the surgebinder and spren rather than what their sex is.

My favorite theory on the subject is that the bond is easier to form if the Knight subcounciously sees the spren as someone who complements them on multiple levels.

The heavy fixation of vorinism on gender duality makes it so our Knights, most of whom come from vorin culture, bond opposite gendered spren.

Renarin is an exception because he sees himself as failing to be a proper alethi male, since everyone in his family wished he was a "genderless" ardent because his talents, attributes and maybe even behavior are seem as too feminine.

Edited by DreamEternal
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My favorite theory on the subject is that the bond is easier to form if the Knight subcounciously sees the spren as someone who complements them on multiple levels.

The heavy fixation of vorinism on gender duality makes it so our Knights, most of whom come from vorin culture, bond opposite gendered spren.

Renarin is an exception because he sees himself as failing to be a proper alethi male, since everyone in his family wished he was a "genderless" ardent because his talents, attributes and maybe even behavior are seem as too feminine.

Ok so I basically typed an answer, did some research, changed it to start to type another answer, and then changed it again. Personally I love this theory and hope it is true. But then it popped into my head about Lift and Ym. Both are not natives to nations that fixate on Vorinism, and yet they each have opposite gender spren (in Ym's case the voice is feminine so I assume it is female) like the other knights to be. The only exception so far seems to be Renarin. But then I thought, just because that may seem like a false positive, doesn't  negate the theory that Lift and Ym as individuals happen to see these spren as complimenting them on multiple levels, and these spren just happen to be the opposite sex. So fingers crossed this is true!

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Yes, the pattern extends to non-vorin Radiants, but even more egualitarian peoples may still put great stock upon the idea of idea male-female duality. However, due to the very peculiar characteristics associated with each gender in vorin culture, Renarin may subcounciously see himself as the female part of this specific pairing, or at least that a male spren "balances" him better.

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My favorite theory on the subject is that the bond is easier to form if the Knight subcounciously sees the spren as someone who complements them on multiple levels.

The heavy fixation of vorinism on gender duality makes it so our Knights, most of whom come from vorin culture, bond opposite gendered spren.

Renarin is an exception because he sees himself as failing to be a proper alethi male, since everyone in his family wished he was a "genderless" ardent because his talents, attributes and maybe even behavior are seem as too feminine.

 

This is... an utterly fascinating theory and I think I'm going to espouse it. I'm at least headcanoning it as true until proven otherwise. What a fabulous explanation.

 

Renarin is a lot like Eshonai's sister. They both have a sibling of the same sex who is very good at fighting and contributes a lot to their people during the war. They're both scholar like and in a martial society, they will have great chances to envy their siblings and may want to sacrifice anything to be better than those siblings. Renarin may not be seen as jealous, but his mood is definitely far from positive

 

I don't necessarily think that the comparison is apt. Martial-Sibling-Scholar-Sibling isn't really the crux of the issue here. Venli's actions are less motivated by her status as a scholar or even over any kind of envy for her sister. She's driven by a kind of ruthless ambition, which is something that Renarin just doesn't have. I don't think there's much chance that he would follow in Venli's footsteps.

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Reminds me of a scene from "The man in the maze".  Two characters are in this maze built by aliens with lots of traps/pitfalls/danger in general, both mental and physical.  In describing a part of the maze they were in earlier, char.1 describes the geometric/mathematical wall, which char.2 never saw.  Backtracking, they realize the wall is portraying that which their mind is most interested in: Where char.1 saw geometry, char.2 saw his every sexual fantasy acted out.

 

Perhaps Renarin's mind is more fixated towards knowledge/science than the other proto-radiants and therefore whether the spren identifies as male/female is not as important in their bond as the spren's matching interest in knowledge/science.

 

Actually, do we know for sure that spren are male and female?  Or do they identify as male/female because that is how the proto-radiants have (subconsciously perhaps) identified them?  Do we know of any non-radiant spren that are specifically male/female?  Being cognitive, how the proto-radiant sees them may affect how they see themselves and how they project themselves into/onto (or are pulled into) the physical.

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Reminds me of a scene from "The man in the maze".  Two characters are in this maze built by aliens with lots of traps/pitfalls/danger in general, both mental and physical.  In describing a part of the maze they were in earlier, char.1 describes the geometric/mathematical wall, which char.2 never saw.  Backtracking, they realize the wall is portraying that which their mind is most interested in: Where char.1 saw geometry, char.2 saw his every sexual fantasy acted out.

 

Perhaps Renarin's mind is more fixated towards knowledge/science than the other proto-radiants and therefore whether the spren identifies as male/female is not as important in their bond as the spren's matching interest in knowledge/science.

 

Actually, do we know for sure that spren are male and female?  Or do they identify as male/female because that is how the proto-radiants have (subconsciously perhaps) identified them?  Do we know of any non-radiant spren that are specifically male/female?  Being cognitive, how the proto-radiant sees them may affect how they see themselves and how they project themselves into/onto (or are pulled into) the physical.

The WoB we are referencing has Brandon state that the spren do not have a sex. They do however identify as one gender or the other. 

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The WoB we are referencing has Brandon state that the spren do not have a sex. They do however identify as one gender or the other.

Kinda makes me want Glys to be our first gender-fluid spren, just to see how it messes with Renarin's fixation on fufilling the expectations dictated by vorinism's very rigid view of what defines each gender. It could also be all kinds of funny to see Glys try to grasp how humans generally think, much like Pattern's "Terrible destruction!".

Edited by DreamEternal
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Kinda makes me want Glys to be our first gender-fluid spren, just to see how it messes with Renarin's fixation on fufilling the expectations dictated by vorinism's very rigid view of what defines each gender. It could also be all kinds of funny to see Glys try to grasp how humans generally think, much like Pattern's "Terrible destruction!".

And now I am picturing Glys taking various forms of men and women, exaggerating various "portions" to check if "is that how those things work?" to which Renarin gets mortified and is convinced he is a voidbringer to be so cursed with such a spren lolol

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And now I am picturing Glys taking various forms of men and women, exaggerating various "portions" to check if "is that how those things work?" to which Renarin gets mortified and is convinced he is a voidbringer to be so cursed with such a spren lolol

Now, that is not what I meant. I mean, that kind of humor is wayyy too MeLaan.

I would like a less... bodly approach, like Glys being completely confused by why Renarin doens't follow his suggestion to wear a dress so he could conceal spheres in his safepouch.

Poor Renarin, struck by weird visions and stuck to weird spren :P

Edited by DreamEternal
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I am not sure about this whole "seeing future is of Voidbringers". It's true that Renarin should have access to Illumination and Progression, but the names of the Orders themselves has come from something, right? Windrunners run on wind, Skybreakers are also associated with sky and breaking (Division) and bringing holy justice, Lightweavers do weave light, Edgedancers were descirbed as dancing on the battlefield and capable of running on the thinniest threads, Bondsmiths are about smithing bonds between people, Dustbringers are very destructively oriented, they literally turn their foes into ashes (they bring dust) and so on.

So Truthwatchers should have something associated with seeing or watching. Being able to create Illusions is not seeing things. So I think that visions are part of Truthwatcher package.

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I am not sure about this whole "seeing future is of Voidbringers". It's true that Renarin should have access to Illumination and Progression, but the names of the Orders themselves has come from something, right? Windrunners run on wind, Skybreakers are also associated with sky and breaking (Division) and bringing holy justice, Lightweavers do weave light, Edgedancers were descirbed as dancing on the battlefield and capable of running on the thinniest threads, Bondsmiths are about smithing bonds between people, Dustbringers are very destructively oriented, they literally turn their foes into ashes (they bring dust) and so on.

So Truthwatchers should have something associated with seeing or watching. Being able to create Illusions is not seeing things. So I think that visions are part of Truthwatcher package.

This is more of a nitpick, but the dustbringers were originally called releasers, though by blowing stuff up, it could be say they are releasing it lol. 

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I am not sure about this whole "seeing future is of Voidbringers". It's true that Renarin should have access to Illumination and Progression, but the names of the Orders themselves has come from something, right? Windrunners run on wind, Skybreakers are also associated with sky and breaking (Division) and bringing holy justice, Lightweavers do weave light, Edgedancers were descirbed as dancing on the battlefield and capable of running on the thinniest threads, Bondsmiths are about smithing bonds between people, Dustbringers are very destructively oriented, they literally turn their foes into ashes (they bring dust) and so on.

So Truthwatchers should have something associated with seeing or watching. Being able to create Illusions is not seeing things. So I think that visions are part of Truthwatcher package.

 

A point of clarification: The "seeing the future is of the Voidbringers" thing is definitely a Vorin teaching. Though they do denounce the Radiants as a whole, this seems to be the only power which they have specifically condemned as being of Odium. Ardents don't teach that walking on walls or creating illusions are of Odium.

 

I think there's something to that teaching against future sight. It came from somewhere, and there's a reason behind it, I'm sure.

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A point of clarification: The "seeing the future is of the Voidbringers" thing is definitely a Vorin teaching. Though they do denounce the Radiants as a whole, this seems to be the only power which they have specifically condemned as being of Odium. Ardents don't teach that walking on walls or creating illusions are of Odium.

 

I think there's something to that teaching against future sight. It came from somewhere, and there's a reason behind it, I'm sure.

I don't think future sight has to be strictly of Odium. Cultivation has to be able to predict future events, or at least the probability of certain events occurring to progress whatever is being cultivated.

I think the Vorin tradition that future sight is of Odium is that Odiums minions used future sight regularly perhaps, so anything using future sight must be of Odium. Plus, I dont think Honor would have allowed something of Odium to be in the KR, unless it was some sort of defector. I could very easily be wrong though.

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Perhaps, as others have suggested, the Sunmaker was influenced by Odium and denounced prescience because Odium predicted that visions coming from the Stormfather and Cultivation could get in his way.

Making the people you want to destroy hate their saviors by implying they are linked to you: sounds like the kind of plot the God of Hatred would enjoy putting in motion.

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Perhaps, as others have suggested, the Sunmaker was influenced by Odium and denounced prescience because Odium predicted that visions coming from the Stormfather and Cultivation could get in his way.

Making the people you want to destroy hate their saviors by implying they are linked to you: sounds like the kind of plot the God of Hatred would enjoy putting in motion.

Definitely would be a good strategy. Just gotta plant the seed of hate in fear. It does the work for you. Edited by The Ninja Yodeler
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Who says he can't wield those magics? He healed his eyes, for exemple, and may or may not have used Illumination to slip into Dalinar's bedroom to write numbers on the wall.

 

Even if he is not a truthwatcher, having a navel bond makes him able to heal himself. Alas, he may even be Kaladin's lackeys and heal himself just like the bridge four. The point is, he never heals or even offers to heal even his family. Why? What is he afraid of if he is a KR?

 

And we see 2 truthwatchers if he actually is one. This is not normal as for other orders we've seen, there is only 1 instance, and it's for good reason: the spren are not trusting enough, and they're still testing the humans. And the other truthwatcher's situation is very different from Renarin's. First of all, for whatever reason, Ym didn't heal his sight. Secondly, his spren shines, matching the illumination part of the order's powers. Unless the comet-like spren Kaladin saw was Renarin's spren, we saw nothing like Ym's around Renarin.

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