[OB] A heralds sanity

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 hours ago, Bort said:

This is why I think the Unmade are made out of part of the Heralds. Look at Jezrien and flashback Dalinar. The similarities between them are blatantly obvious, especially in the scene where they end up drinking together. And what is the most common thing they have there? They are lost without the touch of the Thrill. I think this is because Nergaoul was part of Jezrien until Jezrien first broke under Odium's tortures. I also think this is why Jezrien was killed when he was, because if Dalinar had united Jezrien and The Thrill, I think that would have healed him.

While it is a nice theory I am unconvinced. Mainly because Jezrien was saying he recognized an Unmade's touch on Dalinar, but wasn't sure which. Secondly because Jezrien seemed a lot more together on the prologue of TWoK. He was broken, but compared to his state as Ahu he was stunningly lucid, and by that point in the story the 9 known Unmade were already running around. 

I'm sure there are more reasons, but at a simple glance it looked like Jezrien was killed because he was the most vulnerable (and handy?) of the Heralds. The others are bonkers, but they still are dangerous, often stirring up a huge ruckus (Ishtar for example). Jezrien was the most lost of the heralds we had seen. Then again, I also suspect the fact that they had Jezrien's Honorblade passing around also influenced the decision to kill him, for some reason.

[The One Who Connects]

20 hours ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

While I agree with Shallash being Ash, I have a problem with blatantly refusing anyone's theory regardless of evidence.

I'll admit I was somewhat.. dismissive, but I've also noticed that I tend to lean towards bluntness the longer I spend working an a post. Time-sinks are kinda bothersome, and this one got to the point of wading through 6 tabs all at once(this wob, that wob, a reddit entry, death rattles, page 1 of this thread, shalash's wiki page, etc..). There was also a bit of frustration at having to search for roundabout WoBs creeping into my typing, now that I think about it.

And uh.. it appears that my bluntness got pretty apparent towards the end of my post. Sorry about that @insert_anagram_here

17 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Why not both? Wouldn't you think that would be a lot more "balanced" and an achievement to have on your bookshelf? 

I think you misread me(or I'm misreading you now, which is just as likely). It will do both: Each book will focus on an Order, and each book will focus on a flashback character. But because the flashback character is not a member of an order during their flashbacks(the Heralds are a special case), they do not focus on an Order. The story can have a sub-focus on a KR Order, but the flashbacks themselves do not have that focus. That's what I meant by "Book, not flashback character."

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

To clarify, yes, that was my intention. As I said above, I believe that Baxil's mistress is Chanarach and she is destroying Shalash's statues for a completely different reason than we think. Not because she is mad at her own self but because she wants to assume Shalash's identity.

Must've missed that. I remember reading something to the tune of "Ash(the OB character) is really Chana," but don't remember you linking it to Baxil's Mistress. Oh well.
I'll continue to disagree on her being Chana, but I'm curious what your reasoning is regarding this supposed identity-theft.

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I actually find it odd that BS specifically tries to clarify that when he says Ash, he links her to Baxil's mistress, but when he says Jezrien's daughter, he says Shalash.

The Jezrien's daughter entry is pre-WoR, meaning that Baxil(and his mistress) didn't technically "exist" to be linked to yet. Kinda hard to link something to a book character when that book isn't out yet.

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Just because Ash(Baxil's mistress) destroys Shalash statues doesn't equate that she is Shalash.

Shalash doesn't have enough statues for there to be two people doing it. Per Brandon: Baxil's Mistress has broken every Shalash statue we've seen(or seen the lack of).

This means that either Baxil's Mistress is Shalash, or Shalash is doing something else to "scratch out her own eyes." We agree that the lady in the rattle is Shalash(as your later posts show), which means the question you need to answer is: If not destroying her statues, what is Shalash doing to satisfy the rattle?

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

BS could purposeful be misleading us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash (who also had the Ash pseudonym) only to make the revelation more impact-ful.

I... don't see it. What impact is there to be had in "Ash" is not Shalash? So far, it seems like it'd be a plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist, and we both know Brandon is a better writer than that. If he's doing this, he'd have a reason, and so far, I don't see one, or even hints of one.

17 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This is what I call being 'shot down', there is this rush to dismiss another person's theory when they just posted the thing. Then a ton of other people answer, some without even giving the amount of time to interpret the meaning correctly and provide facts (source and quotes) and certainly not equating to the amount and effort the OP has spent.

What I'm saying this attitude stifles diversity and new opinions when they try to be expressed.

In several of our cases(myself, Extesian, Calderis, Weltall, Oversleep, and others) this "rush to reply" is called "currently being online." I check my unread content feed every few minutes sometimes. And when we get into the swing of debating, replies fly back and forth in minutes(ask Hoiditthroughthegrapevine about that ).

It only feels like a rush to "dismiss" people's theories because it's easier to formulate a post around something you disagree with, rather than a completely separate theory. If you think something is wrong, you usually have a reason, and suddenly boom, half a paragraph is already typed. But if you get hit with something you've never considered before, you have to spend extra time thinking it through, and then work out some form of reply.

I also mentioned the people I did in the parentheses for another reason. They are people who've gotten quite good at finding WoBs, and finding them quickly. If there's a WoB that pokes a hole in, provides support for, or dismisses a theory, we'll be able to find it quickly, especially if it's one we've used before. So a reply from one of us will be much faster than a reply from the average poster, whether positive or negative.

It's normally not that bad(normally). But some things have been mostly proven, or largely accepted for long enough that people consider them as fact more readily than fringe theories. "TLR vs anyone" ending in "TLR wins" is one such example. It's readily accepted as fact, and challenging such an agreed upon notion(even if you have sound logic behind you) is gonna get met with pretty stiff resistance. The Ghostblood's motivations are not as agreed upon, so a theory detailing some new interpretation is gonna be met more with questions than disagreement.

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

Liss just doesn't look athletic and soldiery enough to be Chana, IMHO. It also turned out that the idea that we _must_ have seen Chana on-screen because of the WoB that we have seen a member of every Order, if we count their Heralds, and there hadn't been any other Dustbringers on page, was flawed.

I know that logic was flawed, but we _must_ have seen Chana on-screen because we have. (Seemed kinda relevant to the current discussion regarding Chana)

Quote

55. PeterAhlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

Besides, it's not like Malata was particularly soldierly in appearance either. Bravery/Obedience come in all shapes and sizes.

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Current consensus among  the SA theorists is that she will become a Dustbringer and represent them.

The current consensus clearly isn't used to having more than two options, and we have nearly a dozen at this point. Her becoming a Dustbringer is but 1 of them(and not the one I support).

Spoiler

On 12/22/2017 at 2:20 PM, The One Who Connects said:

This sentence is permeated with "hears, but does not listen." I don't mean to sound particularly rude, but this is the third time I've done this.

On 11/24/2017 at 3:26 PM, The One Who Connects said:

You're equating the flashback character of a book with the order the book will focus on. They are two separate things, and Brandon has directly stated that they will not always match up. All the WoB says is that the book will have a flashback character, and that the book will focus on an Order.

On 10/17/2017 at 3:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

On a side-note, these WoB's provide us with several possibilities:

1. Shalash bonds a Spren and becomes a Dustbringer, allowing us to learn about the Dustbringers in her book.
2. Chana is indisposed(or dead) at the time of Shalash's book, so she takes command of the Dustbringers in the interim, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers in her book without her being a Dustbringer.
3. Shalash takes up Chana's Honorblade(for reasons), allowing us to learn different stuff about Dustbringer powers from her, and learning about the Order itself from some minor character like say.. Redin.

4. Shalash could be a member of literally any of the Orders, or none of them, during her flashback book, and we learn about Dustbringers from a different member of the primary three viewpoints(like Kal/Shallan in WoK/WoR).
5. Shalash could be dead at the time of her book(like Eshonai), and we learn about Dustbringers from whoever replaces her in the primary viewpoints.
6. Shalash x Dustbringer romance/professional relationship, allowing us to learn about Dustbringers from a more minor character involved in the main narrative. (Kinda like if we'd been learning about Shallan's order from Adolin's PoV of her, so Brandon can switch it up on us)
7. Literally anything else that would lead us to learn about the Dustbringers, so long as it is interspersed with Shalash's flashbacks in a way that makes sense.

Nothing Brandon has stated prevents any of these, but everyone seems to think it automatically has to be option 1, which is why I've gone back to using the phrase "connecting dots that aren't necessarily there."

---

Brandon loves to switch things up on us, but he also likes coming up with new and inventive ways to change it up. So as for your theory itself, I'd say it's not as likely anymore because we already have this happening now, what with Eshonai indisposed and Venli taking her place in the narrative.

8. After several books of trying to get better, Shalash gives up, "drinks to forget rehab," and takes up residence with the Dustbringers, where she(and her destructive tendencies) won't feel out of place.
9. Speaking of which, in an effort to channel her destructive tendencies towards a purpose, Shalash ends up becoming a Dustbringer Squire. (Who said we'd learn about the Order from a Radiant?)

[Calderis]

19 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This is what I call being 'shot down',

I have to say I agree with The One Who Connects here. When he says this... 

32 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

In several of our cases(myself, Extesian, Calderis, Weltall, Oversleep, and others) this "rush to reply" is called "currently being online."

I respond much more often to things I disagree with because frankly, there's more of that going around. 

I am constantly looking for new ideas, and trying to come up with my own... The difficulty here is that having dug as deep into the WoBs as some of us have, many of our ideas are "shot down" as quickly as we appear to do it to others. 

The Cosmere is a unique fandom. We have such a dearth of information provided by Brandon that we have actual right and wrong answers to things. If we respond quickly it's not out of some sense of glee, because again frankly, it's tiring and there are times that I can't bring myself to respond. If I do respond quickly, it's because there's an obvious counterpoint available in my knowledge, and letting misinformation propagate is counterproductive to our goals of digging out the secrets of the Cosmere. 

You can find on this forum theories based on WoBs and in book evidence that have predicted outcomes in the books with enough accuracy that in other fandom they would be considered spoilers. This is because of the amount of knowledge that Brandon gives us. That also means that theories can be "shot down" much more easily, because it's not just head canon and opinion. 

Speculation is fine. I engage in it regularly. But when information contradicts that speculation, I want to be told rather than convince myself of a train of thought that will lead to a dead end. 

[RShara]

If it makes anyone feel any better, I tell Cal he's full of crap all the time.  And vice versa. 

And admittedly, a lot of those times, I (or he) really are full of crap

[insert_anagram_here]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

And uh.. it appears that my bluntness got pretty apparent towards the end of my post. Sorry about that @insert_anagram_here

Thank you for making the effort to reach understanding and middle ground with me. It's obvious you invest time in your posts to actually find the proof that supports your argument. And I honestly appreciate your effort here, especially because I know it's hard to do that for a complete newbie, obviously a little crazy, stranger who is on the other side of the argument. And you are completely civil about it.

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Each book will focus on an Order, and each book will focus on a flashback character. But because the flashback character is not a member of an order during their flashbacks(the Heralds are a special case), they do not focus on an Order. The story can have a sub-focus on a KR Order, but the flashbacks themselves do not have that focus. That's what I meant by "Book, not flashback character."

I'm still not sure we are on the same page here (Sorry) but I think you mean that Ash's book will focus on her flashback story and on the Dustbringer order at the same time, without necessarily making her of that Order. Am I correct?

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

On 2/15/2018 at 9:15 AM, insert_anagram_here said:

I actually find it odd that BS specifically tries to clarify that when he says Ash, he links her to Baxil's mistress, but when he says Jezrien's daughter, he says Shalash.

The Jezrien's daughter entry is pre-WoR, meaning that Baxil(and his mistress) didn't technically "exist" to be linked to yet. Kinda hard to link something to a book character when that book isn't out yet.

That is a good point and I've searched and found this which I know you will all find it as proof against this theory.

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Must've missed that. I remember reading something to the tune of "Ash(the OB character) is really Chana," but don't remember you linking it to Baxil's Mistress. Oh well.
I'll continue to disagree on her being Chana, but I'm curious what your reasoning is regarding this supposed identity-theft.

Probably my fault because I think I didn't clarify from the beginning of my posts and I also see a lot of people are still confused on what I claimed with this theory, so in order to have this misunderstanding out the way completely, let me explain what I mean.

The character Ash we see in the book, the one that Taln 'recognizes', is Baxil's Mistress and it's the same one that destroys art. But it is not Shalash.

Shalash is indeed daughter of Jezrien, that scratches out her eyes in the DR and sometimes called Ash, especially for cursing 'Ash's eyes' etc.

But I am probably wrong here, I admit. I just thought it would be an interesting twist.

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

15 hours ago, Isilel said:

Current consensus among  the SA theorists is that she will become a Dustbringer and represent them.

The current consensus clearly isn't used to having more than two options, and we have nearly a dozen at this point. Her becoming a Dustbringer is but 1 of them(and not the one I support).

Okay, completely ignoring the theory here and Ash is indeed Shalash, I feel that coming up with 'she will join the Dustbringer order' is just as hypothetical, since the only hint we have towards that happening is "the POV books don't add up". I am not against hypothetical theories though and I'm open to discuss them as well.

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

This means that either Baxil's Mistress is Shalash, or Shalash is doing something else to "scratch out her own eyes." We agree that the lady in the rattle is Shalash(as your later posts show), which means the question you need to answer is: If not destroying her statues, what is Shalash doing to satisfy the rattle?

Quote

“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal. ”

— Collected on Palahevan 1173, 73 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.^[21]

This rattle is believed to refer to the Herald Shalash, the daughter of the Herald Jezrien, Herald of Kings and patron of the Order of Windrunners.^[22] Shalash is also Baxil's mistress who destroys art, including depictions of a specific Herald, believed to be those of Shalash herself.

A lot of the Death Rattles are still things that we haven't seen yet. Is there a proof that this DR should've happened by now, as in, is there an order in timing of them that I'm not aware of? If not, maybe it is something that remains to be seen. Something very tragic obviously. Also notice how 'the woman sits' ? Why is this even mentioned in the first place?

 

Edit: to clarify what my initial intention was

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

On 2/15/2018 at 9:15 AM, insert_anagram_here said:

BS could purposeful be misleading us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash (who also had the Ash pseudonym) only to make the revelation more impact-ful.

I... don't see it. What impact is there to be had in "Ash" is not Shalash? So far, it seems like it'd be a plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist, and we both know Brandon is a better writer than that. If he's doing this, he'd have a reason, and so far, I don't see one, or even hints of one.

I meant to say that he could purposefully mislead us into thinking that Ash(Baxil's Mistress) is the same as Shalash only to make the revelation that someone else is actually Shalash in order to make that more impact-ful.

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Willow]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

The Jezrien's daughter entry is pre-WoR, meaning that Baxil(and his mistress) didn't technically "exist" to be linked to yet. Kinda hard to link something to a book character when that book isn't out yet.

But Baxil's interlude was in Way of Kings?  It's interlude I-7 there. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, we were told Shalash was Jezrien's daughter in the same book as we were told Baxil's mistress was destroying art?

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm still not sure we are on the same page here (Sorry) but I think you mean that Ash's book will focus on her flashback story and on the Dustbringer order at the same time, without necessarily making her of that Order. Am I correct?

I think what Brandon Sanderson has said about the story structure is that each book is going to focus on one order (like in book 3 we learned a lot about the Bondsmiths). At the same time, each book is going to have one flashback character, where we learn about a turning point in their past (why Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher). Until know, the flashback character has always been both alive and of the same order as the book is focusing on (Kaladin - Windrunners, Shallan - Lightweavers, etc). But this will not remain so for all the books. The next book could focus on Eshonai (who is dead) as a flashback character (who probably would have been a Willshaper). But the Knight Radiant order the book focuses on might be.. Edgedancers. Or another order. And then we won't learn more about what Willshapers can do until a later book.

Quote

Questioner
What are the other books in The Stormlight Archive going to be about?

Brandon Sanderson
Well each one is going to cover a flashback sequence for one of the characters and each one will focus on a different order of the Knights Radiant. And that's not always the same, like the flashbacks for the first one were Kaladin and it was also Windrunners, but we won't always have them be the exact same.

So Shalash's book could have her flashbacks, while at the same time have her become a Dustbringer in the current timeline. Or she could stay a Lightweaver, and find and help Chana recover her powers as a Dustbringer, which is how we can learn about that order. Or in Shalash's flashback book the order we focus on might be the Truthwatchers, and not the Dustbringers. We still have so many books to go.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Willow

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I know that logic was flawed, but we _must_ have seen Chana on-screen because we have. (Seemed kinda relevant to the current discussion regarding Chana)

Besides, it's not like Malata was particularly soldierly in appearance either. Bravery/Obedience come in all shapes and sizes.

How could I have missed this Word of Peter (WoP?)?! So, Chana did, indeed, appear on-screen. However, I still don't think that she is Liss because IMHO, unlike the Radiants, the Heralds' appearance truly reflects what they have come to represent in some way. Taln isn't some dumpy mouse of a man - he _does_ look like an ideal soldier, Ash _is_ stunningly beautiful, Jezrien _was_ regal and commanding before he let himself go, etc. What do we know of Chana? Hoid included her in his story about Fleet as a superb long-distance runner. Chana is associated with guards and was probably a general before she became a Herald as she and Taln are the only ones who are usually depicted wearing helmets. There is every reason to expect her to look the part - which is why she can't be  Liss who looks like this:

 

Quote

"She wore a maid’s dress—low cut, of course—and could have been Alethi. Or Veden. Or Bav. Depending on which part of her accent she chose to emphasize. Long dark hair, worn loose, and a plump, attractive figure made her distinctive in all the right ways."

 

 Fortunately, despite the relative paucity of female bit characters, one who could fit my image of Chana did appear in WoR - Ivis the sword-ardent. She briefly interacted with Kaladin and, IIRC and even sparred with his men a couple of times.

In a way, that would be deliciously ironic, as I know that I wasn't the only one who completely missed all the hints about Zahel's identity on my first read of WoR and strongly suspected him of being a Herald. So, it would be a minor double twist if one was indeed hanging around the training grounds - she just didn't draw our attention.

And  I still think that Liss is probably Vedel, who became an asassin through the same sort of twisted reasoning that almost led Kaladin to participate in Elhokar's murder - i.e. view of her actions as a kind of "surgery" performed on society.

 

6 hours ago, Willow said:

 Until know, the flashback character has always been both alive and of the same order as the book is focusing on (Kaladin - Windrunners, Shallan - Lightweavers, etc). But this will not remain so for all the books.

Well, knowing what we now know of Renarin it obviously can't, as he is not a real Truthwatcher and as such his experiences  would have been unique and can't provide a template for this Order. I still think that Ash being one of the 10 people whom Dalinar expected to be around during his Ascension is significant, as well as the fact that the other 9 do somewhat stand for the other 9 Orders, even Renarin. Eshonai/Venli also throws a bit of a curveball, of course, but I still expect Book 4 to flesh out Willshapers as an Order.

The whole "A Herald can become a Radiant" angle is there for a reason too - because Nale didn't actually need it to lead Skybreakers, nor will Taln, who remained true to the Oathpact, technically need it to stand for the Stonewards. IMHO, YMMV.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Isilel

[Kaladin Zahel]

On 2/15/2018 at 2:29 AM, RShara said:

I'm sorry, I guess you're taking "shot down" as negative.  I mean, we all care about this fandom and many of us have many theories.  But we also want to be accurate in our theories.  I mean, I can say that I think Jezrien was Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow hiding from Odium, and that's why he was killed.  But with 0 evidence anywhere, I would rightfully be refuted pretty quickly.

And this is a good thing.  Wildly speculative theories can be fun, but they are also misleading, especially for newcomers to the fandom.  Someone could read "Ash is really Chana" and if there's no debate, they might think that was a known fact, when it isn't.  I kind of feel like you're saying, "No one should ever disagree with anyone else's theories, no matter how speculative they are" and I think that's a bad path to take.  For one thing, it'd be boring.  For another, it wouldn't much expand our understanding of the Cosmere.

We have to make sure our theories are faithful and accurate to the text.  It's not personal.  No one is making personal attacks, which is the difference between here and reddit.   Everyone in this thread has been respectful and polite, just completely and utterly disagreeing.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

As for your theory.  The Death Rattle says, "A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes.  Daughter of Kings and Winds, the vandal."

So her own eyes.  She is scratching out the eyes and faces of her own depictions.  She is the Daughter of Kings and Winds.  This is clearly referring to Shalash, as Shalash is Jezrien's daughter.  Jezrien is King of Kings, and Herald of the Windrunners. 

So who have we seen scratching out and destroying depictions of Shalash?  Ash.  And since it's the woman scratching out her own eyes, Ash must be Shalash, scratching out her own (Shalash's) eyes and faces in artwork.

 

I really don't understand how this can be read in any other way.

First, I have seen quite a few theories get outright destroyed by conjecture instead of fact which is what truly upsets me. Beyond that, I just don't think it's necessary to keep at it ince the facts have been laid out.

I am not calling any individual out here; it's just a caution/concern of mine.

However, you have just tried to prove thise DR by means of taking what fits your argument and removing what does not. When have we seen Shallash 'sit' while scratching her eyes out, hrmm?

[RShara]

When Shallan sketches her.

Quote

She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?

 

[insert_anagram_here]

26 minutes ago, RShara said:

When Shallan sketches her.

That's cool! And why does she sketch her?

[RShara]

Because Shallan is weird?  I have no idea.  In the quoted text, it says that Shallan drew whatever came to her.

[insert_anagram_here]

Another strange thing about Baxil's chapter is the detailed explanation of what Nightwatcher does in parallel to the mistress destroying art. If the theory was still in effect, maybe that was a nod to how the mistress ended up being extremely beautiful? I don't know. Maybe I'm still grasping at straws here

Edit: Maybe that's why Taln recognizes her too.

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

That's cool! And why does she sketch her?

On accident, using a power she doesn't know she has or how to use yet. 

She let her mind wander while approaching the warcamps. She drew that picture, and on of Yalb and other sailors climbing out of the ocean. She wrote that one off as her guilt over the winds pleasure but was confused as to why she would draw the picture of the woman. 

I personally think the surge of illumination has an ability at "far sight" built into it. The same way she can take a memory, when she opens herself up like that, I think that a new "memory" can enter into her mind to be drawn/lightwoven. 

I wonder how long it will be before this ability gets found out. 

[insert_anagram_here]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I personally think the surge of illumination has an ability at "far sight" built into it. The same way she can take a memory, when she opens herself up like that, I think that a new "memory" can enter into her mind to be drawn/lightwoven. 

I wonder how long it will be before this ability gets found out. 

Yeah, same goes for that creepy drawing with the nine-headed horse right? That was in Kholinar, when Elhokar found Gav but Shallan drew it unconsciously, many days earlier when she was still in Urithuru .

Could it be done through Cryptics maybe? Like if they are interconnected cognitively somehow and what they see travels into this "far sight"? I'm just being creative here

Edit: Maybe that's how Wit knew where to find that little Cryptic too

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Cognitive Shadow]

For the ‘scratches her eyes out’ part, remember the scene at the end, around jezerizens death, and she is getting taln to the oathgate. She knows how important it is that she gets taln to safety, but she takes the time to scratch the face off of a bronze brazier, and forced herself to not look at the floor in case she saw a rug with a depiction of the heralds on it.

[RShara]

11 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yeah, same goes for that creepy drawing with the nine-headed horse right? That was in Kholinar, when Elhokar found Gav but Shallan drew it unconsciously, many days earlier when she was still in Urithuru .

Could it be done through Cryptics maybe? Like if they are interconnected cognitively somehow and what they see travels into this "far sight"? I'm just being creative here

Edit: Maybe that's how Wit knew where to find that little Cryptic too

I don't remember anything about Gavinor and a nine-headed horse, but Shallan also draws Yalb and some of the sailors making it ashore, and there wasn't likely a Cryptic around then.

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I don't remember anything about Gavinor and a nine-headed horse, but Shallan also draws Yalb and some of the sailors making it ashore, and there wasn't likely a Cryptic around then.

Quote

Absently turning a page, she came across a sketch she didn’t recall making. A series of twisting, maddening lines, scribbled and unconnected. She felt cold. “When did I draw this?” Pattern moved up her dress, stopping under her neck. He hummed, an uncomfortable sound. “I do not remember.” She flipped to the next page. Here she’d drawn a rush of lines sweeping out from a central point, confused and chaotic, transforming to the heads of horses with the flesh ripping off, their eyes wide, equine mouths screaming. It was grotesque, nauseating. Oh Stormfather . . . Her fingers trembled as she turned to the next page. She’d scribbled it entirely black, using a circular motion, spiraling toward the center point. A deep void, an endless corridor, something terrible and unknowable at the end. OB Location 5557 Kindle Version

Quote

Kaladin joined Syl and glanced behind the dressing screen, which had been pushed back against the wall to section off a small cubby. Here a child—two or three years old—huddled and trembled, clutching a stuffed soldier. Several spren with soft red glows were picking at him like cremlings at a corpse. The boy tried to turn his head, and the spren pulled on the back of his hair until he looked up, while others hovered in front of his face and took horrific shapes, like horses with melting faces. OB Location 16031 Kindle Version

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis]

And as seen at the end, that was one of the things that appeared within the shapes in the red mist that was the Thrill. So Thaylen Field, not Kholinar. 

[insert_anagram_here]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And as seen at the end, that was one of the things that appeared within the shapes in the red mist that was the Thrill. So Thaylen Field, not Kholinar. 

I just added the bit from the book from when Kaladin (I did say Elhokar before, my mistake) saw it in my previous post. I'll try to find this reference you speak of in TF.

Edit:

Quote

He’d noticed the red mist on the north side of the battlefield, with its horrific images forming and breaking apart. Shadows of soldiers dying, of skeletal features, of charging horses. It was a grand, intimidating sight. OB Location 22065 Kindle Version

Quote

The Thrill colored his sight red, inflicting a deep longing for the fight, the conflict, the challenge. If he rejected it, he would drive the Thrill away. “Thank you,” Dalinar said, “for giving me strength when I needed it.” The Thrill thrummed with a pleased sound. It drew in closer to him, the faces of red mist grinning with excitement and glee. Charging horses screamed and died. Men laughed as they were cut down. Dalinar was once again walking on the stone toward the Rift, intent on murdering everyone inside. He felt the heat of anger. The yearning so powerful, it made him ache. “I was that man,” Dalinar said. “I understand you.” OB Location 22781 Kindle Version

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[RShara]

Either way, unless Yalb is a proto-Lightweaver, her drawing him disproves that point, alas.

[insert_anagram_here]

I feel I'm spamming this now without reason but I found of the WOB that completely threw me off on a tangent when I initially came up with the theory.

Quote

Questioner

Have we... I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I think you have.

Questioner

My question is, have we met two Edgedancers? And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner

Haven’t been yet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner

I don’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner

Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?

Brandon Sanderson

Well… Dustbringers are really complicated. Really complicated. So that’s the weird one. Okay? So let’s shelve that one. You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80-shadows-of-self-london-uk-signing/#e5318

[Calderis]

@insert_anagram_here that's the very WoB that spawned the "Shallash becomes a Dustbringer" idea.

We had seen a potential future member of all orders, if you include the Heralds, except dustbringers are complicated... Because the future member was the Herald of an order we've already seen represented. 

If it weren't for that WoB, combined with the flashback/order focus pattern we've seen, the idea never would have come into being in the way it did. 

And as for people saying that that pattern is now broken because Eshonai is dead... Next book should be the Willshaper book, and the pattern is still intact 

Quote

Vulcronos [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Book Four still planned to be Eshonai's viewpoint?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Vulcronos [PENDING REVIEW]

And, would she have been a Willshaper?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She would be the same Order as her sister.

source

So assuming that we know the Orders of all the characters, Venli should be a Willshaper, and I personally think it fits. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Calderis

[insert_anagram_here]

35 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@insert_anagram_here that's the very WoB that spawned the "Shallash becomes a Dustbringer" idea.

I think I got a completely different interpretation to what was said then. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner

Haven’t been yet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not yet, I don’t think. But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner

I don’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order. If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order

A Dustbringer is eventually a POV, not a POV is eventually a Dustbringer. Then he clarifies that you should count the Heralds as members of their own order. 

So if you are missing the Dustbringer who will eventually be a POV and you are supposed to count Heralds of their own order, it meant that Chana is in the POVs. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis]

@insert_anagram_hereand if you look at just the portion of the WoB that you just posted out of context, I could agree with that. In context of the whole WoB though...

"have we seen members of all the Orders?" 

"not yet" 

"Future members?" 

"Well do you count Heralds? Cause I do."

"So we've seen a Dustbringer?" 

"Dustbringers are complicated" 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Calderis

[insert_anagram_here]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@insert_anagram_hereand if you look at just the portion of the WoB that you just posted out of context, I could agree with that. In context of the whole WoB though...

"have we seen members of all the Orders?" 

"not yet" 

"Future members?" 

Well do you count Heralds? Cause I do."

"So we've seen a Dustbringer?" 

"Dustbringers are complicated" 

No, I don't think you got my point. He clearly states that you should count Heralds in their own Order. 

Edited February 16, 2018 by insert_anagram_here