Brightlord Brooding-Eyes

[OB] Hoid and the Shards of Adonalsium

18 posts in this topic

So I know there's a theory going that when Dalinar united the three realms, and Odium said "we killed you", he was referring to Adonalsium rather than Honor; that somehow (either in the spiritual realm or the beyond) Odium saw Adonalsium in the perpendicularity Dalinar created. I won't go into it all here, but I was thinking about the letters from various shards to Hoid in the epigraphs and started wondering about Hoid's motives. The letters seem to imply that Hoid has contacted multiple shards of Adonalsium and asked them to assist in the conflict on Roshar. On the surface it would appear that he wants their assistance in stopping Rayse, but is it really that straightforward? It seems very un-Hoidlike to simply ask directly for help, and he even contacted Autonomy (who he isn't on good terms with) and Harmony (who he doesn't really know personally).

Dalinar's power allows him to bind together the spren of something that has been shattered but remember being whole, and we know from the Stormfather's reaction (and Odium's) that his ability to manifest a perpendicularity is unprecendented, and makes it possible that Dalinar has access to LOT of power in this department. I think it's possible Dalinar could restore a splintered Shard in the right circumstances, but could he do more and restore Adonalsium itself?  If this is the case, and if Hoid knew this, then his attempt to lure the other shards to Roshar could actually be part of a plan to get Dalinar to "Unite" the shards, restoring Adonalsium.

This is just wild speculation, I'm not actually 100% sold on the whole "Odium saw Adonalsium". I do think Hoid's letters tie in nicely with it, but I would also like to discuss some evidence that contradicts it.

It's still quite possible that Odium was referring to Honor when he said "we killed you", the "we" implying that Odium wasn't acting alone when he splintered Honor. If this is the case, my money would be on him working with Autonomy, after all we do have this epigraph...

Quote

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.

...which seems to suggest Autonomy's involvement.

So what do people think?  Was Odium referring to Adonalsium or Honor when he said "we killed you"?

Edited by Brightlord Brooding-Eyes
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Please change your thread title to be less spoilery, per the spoiler policy at the top (it's also a touch long?).

I'm reluctant to speculate on who We Killed You was referring to because we literally have no information other than that.  I personally don't think he referred to Adonalsium, but I'm not sure he was referring to Honor or someone else.

Also, hey, welcome to the Shard!

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@RShara Oh right, sorry about that everyone.  Edited now.

I agree that we have no other information, I just find wild speculation fun even if it is most likely unsubstantiated! The theory I'm leaning towards is that he wasn't referring to Adonalsium but dropped a hint that he's working with another Shard.

Thanks for the welcome! it's good to be here.

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I think we have Word of Brandon that he worked with another shard (I cannot remember which one) to kill Aona and Skai?

 

Or I could be remembering.

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3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think we have Word of Brandon that he worked with another shard (I cannot remember which one) to kill Aona and Skai?

Or I could be misremembering.

Not exactly, but you remember mostly right. The WoB doesn't really say anything though, a Chasmfiend could wander through this loophole with room to spare.

Quote

Moridin997 (paraphrased)
Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)
(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

As a note, I absolutely remember someone posting a non-paraphrased version of this at one point, but it's not in Arcanum, and the search function on this site is counter-intuitive so I'm having trouble finding it. (It's nothing special, just clearer time-gaps during Brandon's "uhh.. yes... yes, you could" bit)

As for the loophole, "in any way" could be as little as knowing it was happening and not getting involved(which seems like an Autonomy thing to do).

Edited by The One Who Connects
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I may be completely misunderstanding the whole Adonalsium/Shard relationship but if Adonalsium splintering thus creating the shards, how could Odium (a shard) be saying he killed Adonalsium? Unless the component parts of Adonalsium made him splinter which doesn't make sense to me.

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2 hours ago, HaloJones said:

I may be completely misunderstanding the whole Adonalsium/Shard relationship but if Adonalsium splintering thus creating the shards, how could Odium (a shard) be saying he killed Adonalsium? Unless the component parts of Adonalsium made him splinter which doesn't make sense to me.

Subliminal Memory. Rayse(the vessel holding Odium) is part of the group of people who killed Adonalsium. Over the following 11.5 millennia, Rayse's personality may have been largely consumed by the sheer power of Odium, but some memories would still remain.

Look at some of the Letters, and you'll see that several of the Shards still know who they're talking too. Hoid is afraid of what Odium would do if he found him, which only works if Odium still remembers who Hoid is. Etc...


Edit: Clarification

The Shards are simply chunks of Adonalsium's power. Power needs a mind to direct it. The Vessels were there when Adonalsium shattered, so they took up the Shards. Over time, they have become more like one being than two separate entities, which is evident when you look at Ruin & Honor.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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I think Hoid was originally the one supposed to take up Odium and somehow didn't, or chose not to. Now I think he's trying to merge pieces of as many different shards as he can so he can consolidate power without being subject to the Intent of any one shard.

I don't think Hoid is all that concerned with reforging Adonalsium in its entirety, I think he just wants his one little piece. As for 'we killed you,' the questions are obvious and the answers numerous. Who's we? Who's you? The original 16 shardholders killing Adonalsium is certainly one possibility, even the most obviously likely, but finding out for sure will take the rest of the series.

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38 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I think Hoid was originally the one supposed to take up Odium and somehow didn't, or chose not to.

He was offered a Shard that we haven't seen yet.

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Um, I'm not too confident on my knowledge of the general Cosmere background as I always discover theories that long time fans seem to take for granted, but I'll take a shot at this and fell free to shoot me down.

We know there are 16 Shards of Adolnasium, but we don't even know the names and the intent they represent. We have witnessed Preservation and Ruin, two seemingly countering intents that tried to overcome one another on Scaram. If Odium and Autonomy collaborated into killing another Shard, doesn't it come to reason that it could be Unity itself?

Quote

“I am Unity.” He slammed both hands together. And combined three realms into one. 

It feels that either I haven't understood something from Dalinar's narrative, or a huge part of the story has been forgotten that we haven't seen yet.

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I'm not sure how this fits into the theory, but reading this thread I was reminded of the moment, back on the Shattered Plains at one of Elhokar's feasts, when Wit leans over to Dalinar and says "Adonalsium"

Dalinar of course has no idea what he is on about. But if Hoid sees Dalinar as a means to reassemble Adonalsium (or something more-or-less like Adonalsium, maybe with missing bits or with Intents mixed in different proportions)...could it be possible in the Cosmere for the re-forged Adonalsium to reach backwards in time to Dalinar, to plant seeds in the mind of its own future vessel, and that's what Hoid was checking for?

 

Or to go way off the reservation into Tinfoil Hat Land: what if Dalinar's visions are not about uniting the human kingdoms of Roshar, or even about uniting the humans and Singers, but instead saying the only real way to defeat Odium and end the Desolations is to re-unite the Shards? And/Or aren't even actually from Tanavast at all, but from Adonalsium II?

 

Maybe I've just got sleep deprivation and starting to babble :P

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5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

He was offered a Shard that we haven't seen yet.

Thanks, I knew he had the opportunity, but I hadn't seen that quote.

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11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

He was offered a Shard that we haven't seen yet.

Nice, I haven't seen that WoB before. It will be interesting to find out which Shard he was offered. This also means that one of the vessels was not originally supposed to be a vessel I presume, kind of like how Taln wasn't originally supposed to be a Herald. Or there were supposed to be 17 Shards.

9 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

I'm not sure how this fits into the theory, but reading this thread I was reminded of the moment, back on the Shattered Plains at one of Elhokar's feasts, when Wit leans over to Dalinar and says "Adonalsium"

Good memory, I'd forgotten about that.

 

11 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Um, I'm not too confident on my knowledge of the general Cosmere background as I always discover theories that long time fans seem to take for granted, but I'll take a shot at this and fell free to shoot me down.

We know there are 16 Shards of Adolnasium, but we don't even know the names and the intent they represent. We have witnessed Preservation and Ruin, two seemingly countering intents that tried to overcome one another on Scaram. If Odium and Autonomy collaborated into killing another Shard, doesn't it come to reason that it could be Unity itself?

It feels that either I haven't understood something from Dalinar's narrative, or a huge part of the story has been forgotten that we haven't seen yet.

Well there are still 6 shards we haven't seen or heard about yet (as far as I know), so it's possible there's one called Unity. Although it could also be that "Unity" is how Dalinar interprets Honor's intent (given that we're told Honor seems primarily concerned with bonds and oaths).

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5 minutes ago, Brightlord Brooding-Eyes said:

Nice, I haven't seen that WoB before. It will be interesting to find out which Shard he was offered. This also means that one of the vessels was not originally supposed to be a vessel I presume, kind of like how Taln wasn't originally supposed to be a Herald. Or there were supposed to be 17 Shards.

Good memory, I'd forgotten about that.

 

Well there are still 6 shards we haven't seen or heard about yet (as far as I know), so it's possible there's one called Unity. Although it could also be that "Unity" is how Dalinar interprets Honor's intent (given that we're told Honor seems primarily concerned with bonds and oaths).

Seeing as Odium and Cultivation are still whole, I feel that Unity has to be Dalinar's interpretation of Honor. 

There have only ever been three shards on Roshar. 

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Three.

source

I can understand why people react towards the Adonalsium theory, but I find it unlikely. 

The fear Odium expresses at that point is completely justified, even if it is only Honor being reformed. For a splintered shard to be touched as a whole, enough for a person to ascend for even a moment, implies that all of the work that Odium has done for millenia can be undone. 

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12 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

what if Dalinar's visions are not about uniting the human kingdoms of Roshar, or even about uniting the humans and Singers, but instead saying the only real way to defeat Odium and end the Desolations is to re-unite the Shards?

Actually, that's exactly were my thought process is going as well.

12 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

Or to go way off the reservation into Tinfoil Hat Land

:ph34r:If you only knew the power of the Dark Side you'd join me and together we will rule the galaxy :ph34r:

1 hour ago, Brightlord Brooding-Eyes said:

Well there are still 6 shards we haven't seen or heard about yet (as far as I know), so it's possible there's one called Unity. Although it could also be that "Unity" is how Dalinar interprets Honor's intent (given that we're told Honor seems primarily concerned with bonds and oaths).

Yeah, that could be it! Or it could be something like 'whatever was left from Honor'. For instance, say that Honor split himself into the Ten Heralds by detaching himself from his 'Unity' intent. I mean, how can you possibly split an intent that a part of it actually means unity? First you remove that intent in a separate Shard maybe? (much like a reverse logic of Harmony). Maybe that's why the Heralds weren't 'honorable' enough to keep themselves united and left Taln behind in Damnation.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

There have only ever been three shards on Roshar. 

"Three Shards have existed on Roshar" is an answer given at least as back as 2011, where only the Way of Kings was published.

This cannot possibly mean that other Shards cannot travel to Roshar in the future, since we have way too many Cosmere Shards we haven't seen yet and there are also "The Letters" that imply that help is being asked from the rest of the Shards to interfere dealing with Odium. Somehow I don't think Sanderson would destroy the possibility of that ever happening by saying 'There will ever be only 3 Shards on Roshar and that's that' right after he published the first book.

Also, if a theory of 'Honor downgraded into Unity in order to create the Heralds' actually works that would mean that there are still three Shards on Roshar, just that Unity is there instead of Honor.

12 hours ago, Dalfiatach said:

Maybe I've just got sleep deprivation and starting to babble :P

I'm sorry if I'm not making much sense, I am sleep deprived as well right now. My mind went on vacation to coo coo theory land last night and refused to shut down :(

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5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This cannot possibly mean that other Shards cannot travel to Roshar in the future, since we have way too many Cosmere Shards we haven't seen yet and there are also "The Letters" that imply that help is being asked from the rest of the Shards to interfere dealing with Odium. Somehow I don't think Sanderson would destroy the possibility of that ever happening by saying 'There will ever be only 3 Shards on Roshar and that's that' right after he published the first book.

I didn't say none can come in the future. The WoB just says it's only been those three so far. 

In book though, not a lot of time has passed, and at this point, a new shard showing up is just a bad idea. 

The story is supposed to be self contained, with the greater Cosmere hinted at through characters and epigraphs. 

If another shard shows up, it won't be until book 6, and I doubt that will be the case even then. This is the story of our 10 focus characters, The Knights, and the three Shards of Roshar. I'll be very surprised if that changes. 

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9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is the story of our 10 focus characters, The Knights, and the three Shards of Roshar. I'll be very surprised if that changes. 

Oh? Somehow I was under the impression that the whole Cosmere story was going to be resolved in SA.

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In book though, not a lot of time has passed, and at this point, a new shard showing up is just a bad idea. 

Not sure what you exactly mean by 'bad idea' but yeah, I'm kinda leaning towards the theory that Unity (former Honor) is currently the 3rd Shard on Roshar right now. 

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I didn't say none can come in the future.

BTW, I didn't mean to express myself directly at you, I'm just excited and quite frankly sleep deprived.

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20 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Oh? Somehow I was under the impression that the whole Cosmere story was going to be resolved in SA.

SA is supposed to remain self contained. We won't get Dragonsteel, showing the story if the Vessels and the shattering, until it's done, and to my knowledge the end is currently planned for Mistborn Era 4. That's where all of the stories come together, in the sci-fi era. 

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