Overlord Jebus

[OB] Ashyn isn't the Tranquiline Halls. Roshar is.

22 posts in this topic

Hello and welcome, I don't post theories or interpretations very often but this is one that I wanted to get off my chest.

Ashyn isn't the Tranquiline Halls, Roshar is.

Now, very quickly, I want to make sure that I am not misinterpreted:

I am not claiming that humans did not come from Ashyn, the vast majority of humans on Roshar are descended from Ashynites that fled their self-caused cataclysm.

What I am claiming is that the Vorin mythology of humanities fight for the Tranquiline Halls is originally a singer tale, co-opted by humanity and twisted into their own theology.

So, I just want to establish the mixing of cultures that has occurred between humans and singers on Roshar. I only have 2 (Maybe 2.5) examples of this. I wish I had more but I feel we don't know enough about old singer culture to say what came from them other than what we have been told directly.

1. Human use of the term Voidbringers

This ones an easy one, Eila Stele shows that singers were the first to refer to humanity as Voidbringers during the first Desolation.

Quote

 Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.

We actually also have a little of the opposite happening, with Listener songs describing humanity in a very similar way to the way Midnight Essence are described. Eshonai mentions this in the prologue:

Quote

She’d always imagined humans—as sung of in the songs—as dark, formless monsters.

 

2. Humans took the singer names

From Leshwi and Moash's conversation:

Quote

 

“My grandfather named me,” Moash said, frowning. This was not how he’d anticipated this conversation going.

“Curious. Do you know that it is one of our names?”

“It is?”

She nodded. “How long has it drifted on the tides of time, passing from the lips of singers to men and back, to end up here, on the head of a human slave?”

 

So what we see here is humanity on Roshar seems to have adopted some of singer culture, intentionally or not.

The Tranquiline Halls

So, the tale of the Tranquiline Halls has the following as it's main points of belief:

  1. Humanity is not native to Roshar
  2. Humanity was forced out of their old home by an invading force of Voidbringers
  3. When a human dies, their soul sticks around, they are given super powers and get sent to fight for the Tranquiline Halls
  4. The Heralds are leading the fight

Now, points 1 and 4 we can trace in human culture. We know humans are not native to Roshar, we see Jezrien telling the people this lie in Oathbringer:

Quote

“I will lead the charge for the Tranquiline Halls,” the man shouted. “You will not see me again, but think not on that now! You have won your peace. Revel in it! Rebuild. Go now, help your fellows. Carry with you the light of your Herald king’s words. We are victorious, at long last, over evil!”

But where do points 2 and 3 come from in Vorinism? What are the origins of these parts of their belief?

Humans weren't pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers.

Humans don't die, get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers.

But you know who does?

Singers were pushed out of their homeland by Voidbringers.

When singers die, they do get given super powers and get to continue the fight against said Voidbringers.

Humanity took the singers world, their god, their names and even their religions. 

In Vorin myth, Ashyn would be the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, it's Roshar.

Thank you for reading.

 

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Sorry

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The Tranquiline Halls: are they real?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They are—well they're a real place... They are actually the planet that's referenced [in Oathbringer]. But whether mythologically they're real or not that's more a debate for scholars.

source

 

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Looks like I'd be one of those debating scholars.

For real though, as I said, the Vorin myth would have Ashyn as the Tranquiline Halls. I believe the origins of this myth are actually in singer lore, making Roshar the original and far more valid Tranquiline Hall.

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The physical analogue to the TQ is Ashyn.  The mythological analogue (heaven) is the scholarly/philosophical debate.

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In Vorinism yes, I agree. However, I find the myth of the Tranquiline Halls to be extremely similar to the reality of the singers/Fused situation with Roshar, leading me to believe that this myths roots are in singer culture.

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I have to agree with @Overlord Jebus. Why would humans go to Ashyn to fight the Voidbringers when humans were the one who caused the cataclysm on Ashyn and the Voidbringers referred to in Vornism are the Fused. Maybe there is more to that WOB

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The myth of the Tranquiline Halls has two parts:

1. We had to leave the last place we lived...

2. ...because of an invasion.

Actual human history fits 1 but not 2.

Actual Listener history fits 2 but not 1.

They're both applicable, but they're both inaccurate.

That said, while I appreciate the desire to highlight Vorinism's appropriation of Listener culture, I find the assertion that Roshar is the "real" TQH to be needless semantics.

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With the interbreeding that Horneaters and Herdazians show, Moash's name, the Voidbringer terminology... I see where your going, and I agree that parts of the singer beliefs entered into Vorinism. 

I think "The Tranquiline Halls" is pretty much meaningless though. 

Edited by Calderis
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Also I am hesitantly going to bring this up because I am sure it has been debated thoroughly elsewhere on the forum, but are we even sure Ashyn is the planet the humans destroyed before coming to Roshar? I mean from the discription in AU, information given in OB, etc. it seems like the obvious answer. But this is Brandon freaking Sanderson. Shouldn’t we at least be a tad skeptical of “the obvious answer?”

Edited by AC12
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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

A friend of mine wanted me to ask: Was the cataclysm that rocked Ashyn and forced its inhabitants into the flying cities Investiture-based, and if it was was it Shardic in nature?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The same cataclysm that the-- did you finish [Oathbringer]?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The same cataclysm that they were fleeing, that they caused, is the one that forced people into the skies...

source
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1 hour ago, AC12 said:

Also I am hesitantly going to bring this up because I am sure it has been debated thoroughly elsewhere on the forum, but are we even sure Ashyn is the planet the humans destroyed before coming to Roshar? I mean from the discription in AU, information given in OB, etc. it seems like the obvious answer. But this is Brandon freaking Sanderson. Shouldn’t we at least be a tad skeptical of “the obvious answer?”

See the second post in this thread ;)

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8 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

The myth of the Tranquiline Halls has two parts:

1. We had to leave the last place we lived...

2. ...because of an invasion.

Actual human history fits 1 but not 2.

Actual Listener history fits 2 but not 1.

They're both applicable, but they're both inaccurate.

That said, while I appreciate the desire to highlight Vorinism's appropriation of Listener culture, I find the assertion that Roshar is the "real" TQH to be needless semantics.

Ignoring the fight to take back the Tranquiline Halls aspect of the mythology seems wrong to me. And while it may be semantics, I think it's an important distinction, in Vorin myth, Ashyn would be the Tranquiline Halls. In reality, it's Roshar.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think "The Tranquiline Halls" is pretty much meaningless though. 

I'm with you there. I was simply using the Vorin name for it, the singers might not have a name for it at all and just called it Roshar.

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9 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

The myth of the Tranquiline Halls has two parts:

1. We had to leave the last place we lived...

2. ...because of an invasion.

Actual human history fits 1 but not 2.

Actual Listener history fits 2 but not 1.

They're both applicable, but they're both inaccurate.

That said, while I appreciate the desire to highlight Vorinism's appropriation of Listener culture, I find the assertion that Roshar is the "real" TQH to be needless semantics.

Well, technically if you think about it, a large percentage of the Parsh were forced to leave Roshar and go to Braize. So from a certain point of view, interbreeding could have caused total appropriation of culture.

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Reviving a dead thread.

According to the Stormfather the Dawnshards were used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls.

If my theory of the Dawnshards being the Bondsmith spren proves true. Then tales regarding the Dawnshards would likely be limited only to Roshar.

IMO:

The physical Tranquiline Halls are either located on Aimia or were located in Stormseat. Those are the two places that we know were 'destroyed' by something powerful.

 

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10 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Reviving a dead thread.

According to the Stormfather the Dawnshards were used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls.

If my theory of the Dawnshards being the Bondsmith spren proves true. Then tales regarding the Dawnshards would likely be limited only to Roshar.

IMO:

The physical Tranquiline Halls are either located on Aimia or were located in Stormseat. Those are the two places that we know were 'destroyed' by something powerful.

 

? The physical Tranquiline Halls were confirmed to be Ashyn.

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1 hour ago, RShara said:

? The physical Tranquiline Halls were confirmed to be Ashyn.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The Tranquiline Halls: are they real?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They are—well they're a real place... They are actually the planet that's referenced [in Oathbringer]. But whether mythologically they're real or not that's more a debate for scholars.

In gonna be a chull and say Pending Review(?), so not quite confirmed. :P

Edited by ScavellTane
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:huh::rolleyes: haha. Don't get me started on that.

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It doesn't make sense for pre-Recreance lore to retain knowledge of the Tranquiline Halls as Ashyn and not have any expedition to reclaim/visit it considering the KRs mastery of the surges. Of course it can be said that Odium could reasonably attack them outside of Roshar as we don't know that the Oathpact keeps Odium and the Fused in Braize or keeps them out of Roshar.

It make sense to me that the Tranquiline Halls is physically located in either Aimia or Stormseat. The Singers/Voidbringers drove the humans out of it and the humans believe that one day they would be able to reclaim it.

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Bear in mind that we already have confirmation that Braize is known on Roshar to be another name for Damnation; Kaladin says so in Words of Radiance. It requires no great leap to assume that the Tranquiline Halls are likewise another planet, with the facts having been judiciously edited at some point in the past. I wouldn't put too much stock in the whole 'the Voidbringers drove us out' thing as evidence that the Halls must be somewhere on Roshar since we know that wasn't the real story.

Oh, and that 'Pending Review' thing? Go to the actual entry on Arcanum and you'll notice that it has a link to a recording where you can hear Brandon himself saying those words. So yes, it actually is confirmed. :P

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I think there is something to the Vorin myth of the dead fighting to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls. Every other aspect of the basic Vorin mythos is true physical, actual history rather than theological metaphor. The Fused returning to Braize when they die and resurrecting back on Roshar is kind of similar, but certainly not as strong as the other parallels.

I wonder if the Aimians have an important historical role that closes this discontinuity. The important elements of the Rosharan system come in threes and maybe the Aimians and their third of the story is what's missing to line up the Vorin mythos with reality.

There are three important planets, three shards of Adonalsium, three worlds to the Vorin mythos, and three realms of existence. There are three different intelligent races but most of our theories focus on only two of them. Maybe, like humans, Aimians aren't native to Roshar. Maybe they originated on Braize. It seems that the Aimians were the most advanced race on Roshar, but now they're weak and fractured. Could they have undergone a longer period of technological/investiture-based discovery on Braize before they eventually moved to Roshar?

I don't have any good theories at this point to tie the Aimians into the story, but I think they're at the core of a lot of our unsolved mysteries.

Edited by LazarusLong
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Now that you meantion it, there is another 3 in the books. The three moons. Specifically with the story that Wit tells. I, along with many others, assumed the three was a reference to the three Shards, but considering that the end of Wits story is the blueish Natans, and (without specific memory of why) I think that the Aimians have some connection to Natan, could that be the link to the story? Not sure how it connects, and I realize this theory is less than half baked, but at least it’s another 3 to cast into the mix

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@Fire&Water the Natans blue skin comes from having Siah blood the same way that Horneaters and Herdazians have singer blood.

Quote

Chris Hansen

Are either the blue-skinned Natans or blue-veined Babatharnams human-Aimian hybrids?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source
Quote

Finallity [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.

source

 

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