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[OB] Cultivation's Master Plan


Strifelover

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We've already seen several of the Nightwatcher and Cultivation's boons and curses having a significant impact on our story. The most obvious is Dalinar, with Cultivation stealing away Odium's champion at exactly the right moment. Lift is also playing an increasingly large role in our story, and her ability to partially interact with the cognitive realm has some wild implications. I also think that the Diagram is all an elaborate piece of Cultivation's long game, and she's manipulating Taravangian and Co. to do exactly what she needs.

So this leads me to believe that in fact - all of the boons and curses are part of Cultivation's master plan.

Just think about it, what if the surge of gravitation suddenly flips everybody upside down? BOOM Av's Dad can see everything perfectly and has plenty of good cloth. What if Odium makes something really hot that needs retrieving? Av's brother can grab it with his numb hands AND he'll look fantastic with his new haircut. Maybe Baxil finally became useful and got courage for when things get really scary.

Each boon/curse is Cultivation playing chess while Odium plays checkers. Go ahead and debate, and I'm excited to be proven 100% right... some time around Book 9.

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I don't think all of the boons and curses are part of a plan.  Most of them are handled by the Nightwatcher, and Cultivation doesn't intervene because she wants her daughter to learn and grow.

 

The special ones that Cultivation takes a personal hand in, however..... :D

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I don't think all of the boons and curses are part of a plan.  Most of them are handled by the Nightwatcher, and Cultivation doesn't intervene because she wants her daughter to learn and grow.

 

The special ones that Cultivation takes a personal hand in, however..... :D

That’s exactly what she wants you (and Odium) to think. Bunch of nobodies with wacky curses? That could never be a threat...until WHAM a guy who can’t smell anymore is the perfect counter to Dai-gonarthis’ odor-based powers. 

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I do like the idea that Cultivation is influencing the Diagram specifically as part of some long-range plan (Honor did say she's better at seeing the future and that sort of thing is entirely in keeping with her Intent) but I don't recall offhand when Taravangian visited the Nightwatcher. Cultivation said that Dalinar was the first person she'd shown herself to in several centuries, and that otherwise she allows the Nightwatcher to do all the boon-granting/cursing herself. If Taravangian visited before Dalinar, then her influence over the Diagram might be a lot less, if not completely absent. I feel like the timing is that Taravangian went first (if he went later it's no issue at all) but I don't have the books handy to check. In any case, absent a reason to believe that Cultivation lied to Dalinar it looks like no boon/curse that's more than about six years old was her doing.

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@Weltall, the timing would be tight, but he went after Gavilar's death. So considering the complexity of his boon/curse, I believe it is also granted by Cultivation.

Quote

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

source

 

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I was reading OB last night and was at the chapter where Odium first shows himself to Dalinar and came to a similar conclusion; that Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift all got their boons and curses directly from Cultivation herself, and they are key to her plan in defeating Odium.

Dalinar fully regained his memories not long before Odium's attempt to make him his champion, and it was Evi's memory and the desire not to lose her again that caused him to refuse Odium.

When Odium came into Dalinar's vision, he was able to shut out the stormfather (and presumably Yanagawn, Jasnah and Navani, who had all been in the vision with Dalinar), but Lift was not only able to get in, she was able to hide her presence from Odium:

Quote

Odium Patted him on the shoulder. "Take a minute, Dalinar. I'll leave you here, Relax, it-" He cut off, then frowned, spinning. He searched the rocks. "What?" Dalinar asked. "Nothing. Just an old man's mind playing tricks on him."

And then there's another connection between Lift and Dalinar; both are capable of doing things that shouldn't be possible according to Wyndle/the Stormfather (Lift's calorie to investiture conversion/ability to touch things in the cognitive realm (which is probably why she can enter visions)/Wyndle retaining his memories, and Dalinar being able to bond the three realms together). We are led to believe that for Lift this is related to her boon/curse, so it seems reasonable to assume that the same applies to Dalinar.

That brings us to Taravangian. When Odium visits him on one of his "stupid" days, Taravangian is able to get the better of him. It appears that when Taravangian wrote the Diagram he knew that:

  1. Odium would eventually meet with him
  2. He would do so on a day when Tarvangian had "diminished" capacity
  3. Odium would want to view the diagram for himself

So he left hidden messages in the diagram that only his less intelligent self could read, allowing him to negotiate with Odium from a position of strength. I think the more indecipherable portions of the diagram are exactly this, messages only Taravangian could read and only on his "off" days. I don't really believe Taravangian is less intelligent on those days, he just has capacity in different areas than he does on his "genius" days. There are plenty of glimmers of him possesing a more introspective, thoughtful kind of intelligence when he is supposedly stupid, while he has a more focused kind of intelligence on his smarter days, which causes him to have tunnel vision. This tunnel vision causes "genius" Tarvangian to miss the hidden messages only "idiot" Taravangian can read, he just never noticed before since on his lower capacity days he isn't allowed to interpret the Diagram.

On 02/02/2018 at 9:06 AM, Weltall said:

I do like the idea that Cultivation is influencing the Diagram specifically as part of some long-range plan (Honor did say she's better at seeing the future and that sort of thing is entirely in keeping with her Intent) but I don't recall offhand when Taravangian visited the Nightwatcher. Cultivation said that Dalinar was the first person she'd shown herself to in several centuries, and that otherwise she allows the Nightwatcher to do all the boon-granting/cursing herself. If Taravangian visited before Dalinar, then her influence over the Diagram might be a lot less, if not completely absent. I feel like the timing is that Taravangian went first (if he went later it's no issue at all) but I don't have the books handy to check. In any case, absent a reason to believe that Cultivation lied to Dalinar it looks like no boon/curse that's more than about six years old was her doing.

The flashback in Oathbringer puts Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher at 5 and a half years earlier (it specifically mentions the half year in the flashback), and in the chapter where Dalinar meets Taravangian it dates his "strange illness" at 5 years earlier.  Lift is 13 and went to the Nightwatcher to stop herself from aging when she was 10, so the order should be Dalinar first, Taravangian second, and Lift last.

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15 minutes ago, Brightlord Brooding-Eyes said:

The flashback in Oathbringer puts Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher at 5 and a half years earlier (it specifically mentions the half year in the flashback), and in the chapter where Dalinar meets Taravangian it dates his "strange illness" at 5 years earlier.  Lift is 13 and went to the Nightwatcher to stop herself from aging when she was 10, so the order should be Dalinar first, Taravangian second, and Lift last.

Ahh, awesome. Good spot there.

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This makes sense Cultivation can't hope to beat Odium in a straight up fight so she needs to plan ahead and ensure that he's to tied up fighting the coalition to go looking for her. I do believe however that above all this is a temporary measure, Cultivation can't out gambit Odium forever eventually he's going to either get lucky of figure out her game. I think the stormfather had it right when he said that their best hope was to hope that another shard (most likely Harmony) took note of what was happening and sent help.

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1 hour ago, Unhinged said:

This makes sense Cultivation can't hope to beat Odium in a straight up fight so she needs to plan ahead and ensure that he's to tied up fighting the coalition to go looking for her. I do believe however that above all this is a temporary measure, Cultivation can't out gambit Odium forever eventually he's going to either get lucky of figure out her game. I think the stormfather had it right when he said that their best hope was to hope that another shard (most likely Harmony) took note of what was happening and sent help.

I don't remember the Stormfather saying that. Can you quote/cite it? 

Also, another Shard getting involved on Roshar is unlikely.  We already have 3 of them wandering around.  A fourth would just make things really messy. 

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2 hours ago, Unhinged said:

This makes sense Cultivation can't hope to beat Odium in a straight up fight so she needs to plan ahead and ensure that he's to tied up fighting the coalition to go looking for her. I do believe however that above all this is a temporary measure, Cultivation can't out gambit Odium forever eventually he's going to either get lucky of figure out her game. I think the stormfather had it right when he said that their best hope was to hope that another shard (most likely Harmony) took note of what was happening and sent help.

I disagree, I agree that Cultivation can't kill/destroy Odium because that is not in her 'nature/intent'.  But I do think that she could certainly 'prune' odium and possibly splinter him in a dangerous way.  Honestly I have some theories that due to cultivations nature/intent and the timeline since the shattering that Cultivation has to have some serious power/investiture stored up in Roshar.  Possibly in a way that the other shards aren't quite familiar with... since Cultivation... cultivates things.  One of the very few (perhaps only) shards that have the intent of growth/nurturing in their namesake.  Preservation preserves.... Devotion devotes....  Ambition -wants- more, but isn't about building/growing things, more about taking them...  The whole 'intent' and 'nature' of the shards is something that is still being fleshed out from what I can tell.

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15 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't remember the Stormfather saying that. Can you quote/cite it? 

Also, another Shard getting involved on Roshar is unlikely.  We already have 3 of them wandering around.  A fourth would just make things really messy. 

Sorry I wen't back and re read it and I think I misinterpreted it 

Quote

"To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound".

I thought the stormfather was implying that the other forces (shards) might be the key if they took interest but I think I was just jumping to conclusions. Especially since the responses Hoid get's to his letters seem to suggest that with one notable exception none of the other shards seem terribly concerned with Roshar's fate.

14 hours ago, deeptheory said:

I disagree, I agree that Cultivation can't kill/destroy Odium because that is not in her 'nature/intent'.  But I do think that she could certainly 'prune' odium and possibly splinter him in a dangerous way.  Honestly I have some theories that due to cultivations nature/intent and the timeline since the shattering that Cultivation has to have some serious power/investiture stored up in Roshar.  Possibly in a way that the other shards aren't quite familiar with... since Cultivation... cultivates things.  One of the very few (perhaps only) shards that have the intent of growth/nurturing in their namesake.  Preservation preserves.... Devotion devotes....  Ambition -wants- more, but isn't about building/growing things, more about taking them...  The whole 'intent' and 'nature' of the shards is something that is still being fleshed out from what I can tell.

I don't doubt that Cultivation could kill or at least wound Odium but I don't think she has great odds Odium is an expert at killing other shards while cultivation isn't, to give a comparison in a fight between a trained soldier and a laborer who do you think would win? both men are equally or similarly strong but one is a trained killer with an expert knowledge of combat, while the laborer might get a lucky strike I know who I'd place my money on. however like the stormfather said those wounds don't heal so every hit Cultivation can inflict on him means he would be weakened, which I believe would translate into worse odds when/if he gets of of Roshar and resumes his cross Cosmere shard killing spree

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On 2/3/2018 at 10:27 PM, Brightlord Brooding-Eyes said:

The flashback in Oathbringer puts Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher at 5 and a half years earlier (it specifically mentions the half year in the flashback), and in the chapter where Dalinar meets Taravangian it dates his "strange illness" at 5 years earlier.  Lift is 13 and went to the Nightwatcher to stop herself from aging when she was 10, so the order should be Dalinar first, Taravangian second, and Lift last.

I can agree with this. However a question still nags in my mind.  How do we reconcile this part of the diagram:

"Ah but they were left behind. It is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where? Set off. Obvious. Realization like apricity. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?"

Sanderson is usually careful with language.  "Crafting" a weapon usually refers to creating it from scratch.  Was Szeth "Crafted" or used after the fact?  The WOB refers back to Peter for a final answer. ........I guess I would like something difinitive which I likely wont get for a few years.

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6 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I can agree with this. However a question still nags in my mind.  How do we reconcile this part of the diagram:

"Ah but they were left behind. It is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where? Set off. Obvious. Realization like apricity. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?"

Sanderson is usually careful with language.  "Crafting" a weapon usually refers to creating it from scratch.  Was Szeth "Crafted" or used after the fact?  The WOB refers back to Peter for a final answer. ........I guess I would like something difinitive which I likely wont get for a few years.

"Crafting" would be one way of describing how Szeth's mental state was altered while committing atrocities at Taravangian's orders. And of course the strict adherence to his code at great personal cost was what attracted the attention of Nale, leading Szeth to be recruited to the Skybreakers, which resulted in him pledging allegance to Dalinar... Maybe the weapon's main purpose was not the destruction of all the leaders but something else entirely (then again, it could be as simple as it seems, and Szeth's purpose was to kill the monarchs so that the Diagram could take over).

Brandon probably didn't know the exact timeline off the top of his head, but whether Dalinar or Taravangian went first probably didn't matter so much until he had written the section for Oathbringer, canonizing that no human had seen Cultivation for so long. But I agree, the timeline is somewhat ambiguous (does 5 years of sickness mean 5 years or 5 years give or take?), and this is all just wild speculation. 

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On 02/02/2018 at 0:39 AM, recneps said:

The problem is this: If you play chess against someone playing checkers, it's basically impossible for either of you to win.

But if you play checkers against someone who is playing chess against a third player, you might distract your opponent enough for the third player to win.

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