Pezhistory

[OB] Windrunner ideal in Warbreaker

27 posts in this topic

That would be brilliant except that what has been foreshadowed as less of a dealing with consequenses but more involving failure 

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That would be really awesome. I feel like it is more about the inability to save everyone which I can also somewhat see where this could be the contradiction we see in the gem recording below by a Windrunner.

Quote

"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" 

 

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Yeah, between that line in the gem archive, Kaladin's general arc in the book and how it seems like he was almost able to put the Ideal in words but couldn't quite get there, my take is also that the Fourth Ideal is something like 'I will accept that I can't always protect everyone'. Vasher's musings that you point out do have some nice resonance with young Kaladin's belief in a third category of people who take lives to save others, but I don't see that as really fitting the Windrunners. Maybe one of the Dustbringer Ideals could be phrased in those sorts of terms.

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6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Yeah, between that line in the gem archive, Kaladin's general arc in the book and how it seems like he was almost able to put the Ideal in words but couldn't quite get there, my take is also that the Fourth Ideal is something like 'I will accept that I can't always protect everyone'.

I used to be on that train too but now I'm thinking that's its going to be something more tragic for poor ol' Kal...I'm thinking something along the lines of not giving help to those who do not want it, even if they need it...And I think it might come about in a situation where his father orders Kaladin to abandon him to an almost certain death, in the name of doing a greater good. Poor Lirin, I just don't have high hopes for him.

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46 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I used to be on that train too but now I'm thinking that's its going to be something more tragic for poor ol' Kal...I'm thinking something along the lines of not giving help to those who do not want it, even if they need it...And I think it might come about in a situation where his father orders Kaladin to abandon him to an almost certain death, in the name of doing a greater good. Poor Lirin, I just don't have high hopes for him.

Thats a fair possibility and probably pretty tough for the surgeon Kaladin to agree to as well. 

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Lirin actually embodies the Windrunner ideals super well.

The fourth ideal will likely be something like "I will accept that there are those I can't save", which is something Kal's always struggled with, all the way back to when he was Hearthstone.

When Roshone and Rillir got attacked by the Whitespine, Lirin focused on saving Roshone since he realized that Rillir was going to die, which Kaladin just couldn't accept.

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I need to make a longer reply but wanted to add this to the mix. 

Kaladin's dad. The surgeon.  

“His father snorted. “That’s like trying to stop a storm by blowing harder. Ridiculous. You can’t protect by killing.”

Excerpt From
The Way of Kings
Brandon Sanderson
 

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I still think the 4th Ideal is likely to be something like, "I will forgive myself when I fail" or "I will allow others to make their own journeys."

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I get thematically why we assume the Fourth Oath will be something about accepting failure, but all the other oaths have been affirmative and external. "I Will $do_something."

How do you adjudicate an oath about how you feel about stuff?

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9 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

That would be really awesome. I feel like it is more about the inability to save everyone which I can also somewhat see where this could be the contradiction we see in the gem recording below by a Windrunner. 

"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?" 

 

 

On 1/31/2018 at 6:32 PM, Pezhistory said:

Could ideal 4 already be written out?

It can't that simple but... Vasher did guide him to the third ideal. 

“Sometimes, Vasher wondered if the two weren’t really the same thing. Protect a flower, destroy the pests who wanted to feed on it. Protect a building, destroy the plants that could have grown in the soil.

Protect a man. Live with the destruction he creates.”

 

Excerpt From

Warbreaker

Brandon Sanderson

I think this can work, especially because of kaladins need to protect everyone that he meets, and he does have an inibility to swear the fourth ideal because of his love for the innocent parshmen, so maybe he will have to learn who to protect, and maybe he will have to grow those callouses his father wants him to.

Edited by Cognitive Shadow
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I need to look thorough Oathbringer again, but has Kaladin killed anyone since becoming a Windrunner.  Brandon changed up the fight with the Assassin.  He did not kill Amaran.  Fuze don't count because they just come back.  I need to reread the attempted assault on the Castle. 

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1 hour ago, Pezhistory said:

I need to look thorough Oathbringer again, but has Kaladin killed anyone since becoming a Windrunner.  Brandon changed up the fight with the Assassin.  He did not kill Amaran.  Fuze don't count because they just come back.  I need to reread the attempted assault on the Castle. 

Pretty sure he did, if by "becoming a Windrunner" you mean swearing the Second Ideal. That was either before or during Bridge Four's charge towards the Tower to save Dalinar, and Kaladin killed a whole bunch of Parshendi (regular warform Parshendi, because there were no Fused yet at that point) during the Tower assault.

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I think the fourth Ideal, especially as sworn by Kal, will involve saving those he can, but knowing his limits and letting go when it's needed.

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8 hours ago, Sunbird said:

Pretty sure he did, if by "becoming a Windrunner" you mean swearing the Second Ideal. That was either before or during Bridge Four's charge towards the Tower to save Dalinar, and Kaladin killed a whole bunch of Parshendi (regular warform Parshendi, because there were no Fused yet at that point) during the Tower assault.

I should clarify, I meant after becoming a Knights Radiant with Syl at the end of words of radiance 

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21 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I used to be on that train too but now I'm thinking that's its going to be something more tragic for poor ol' Kal...I'm thinking something along the lines of not giving help to those who do not want it, even if they need it...And I think it might come about in a situation where his father orders Kaladin to abandon him to an almost certain death, in the name of doing a greater good. Poor Lirin, I just don't have high hopes for him.

Wasn't Kaladin thinking of the elderly lady he was escaping with, and how she wanted him to go and save himself, but he refused, insisting that he try to save her, against her protests around the time he tried to swear the 4th ideal? This may have merit, I can't think of other specific examples, but Kaladin asked himself if he could meant the words when he tried to swear the 4th ideal, perhaps because he struggles with letting others putting themselves in harm's way?

Edited by ShardplateJoe III
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On 1/31/2018 at 7:32 PM, Pezhistory said:

Could ideal 4 already be written out?

It can't that simple but... Vasher did guide him to the third ideal. 

“Sometimes, Vasher wondered if the two weren’t really the same thing. Protect a flower, destroy the pests who wanted to feed on it. Protect a building, destroy the plants that could have grown in the soil.

Protect a man. Live with the destruction he creates.”

 

Excerpt From

Warbreaker

Brandon Sanderson

I like it.  I've had similar thoughts, and now I'm leaning towards thinking some variation of "I will kill if necessary to protect the innocent".  This was a very heavy theme for Kaladin back in Way of Kings, but has been put on the back-burner a bit now.

I want to say Kal had multiple conversations with Syl and internally with himself about the topic.

16 hours ago, Pezhistory said:

“His father snorted. “That’s like trying to stop a storm by blowing harder. Ridiculous. You can’t protect by killing.”

Yep.  Lirin thinks of the world in 2 groups: those who save lives and those who take them.

Kaladin leaves for war on the assumption that he can protect others as a "Watcher on the Walls".  A third option, ones who kills to save.  When he becomes briefly hopeless feeling mid-book, he takes a more cynical view: you can't kill to save, the actual 3rd group are the powerless victims of lighteyes.  So we have: killers, healers and victims.  Eventually Syl helps him come back around to trying to protect again, but he never quite resolves his central question of "Can you kill to save?" 

I think thematically it's very important going forward.  Kaladin freezes during the battle of Kholinar, and Bridge 4 flat out abandons Thaylen City before a battle because they're still deeply morally conflicted about fighting in a war.  Kaladin also kind of froze in past battles when his friends have died.  Kaladin even has a flashback to his drill sergeant about not wanting to kill.  It's clearly a question that they need to confront at some point, because they're kind of half-soldiers at the moment.  Their ability to "protect" others is going to be extremely limited if they have so many moral qualms about fighting and killing.

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I will accept that there are those who cannot be saved, and there are those who don't deserve to be saved.

 

or

 

I will accept that there are those who must save themselves.

 

Something along these lines.  OR something regarding his 'squires' and allowing others to do the saving.

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On 03/02/2018 at 4:47 AM, deeptheory said:

...OR something regarding his 'squires' and allowing others to do the saving.

I like this. I have a feeling that in some way the 4th and 5th Windrunner ideals will involve their other divine attribute, leadership. Accepting that you can't protect everyone and accepting that a leader needs to be able to trust their subordinates could tie together quite nicely as a single ideal.

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OATHBRINGER ENDING SPOILERS
 

Spoiler

 

As compelling as the arguments in this thread are, I am very sure they are wrong.

After all at the end of Oathbringer Kaladin is close to swearing the 4th ideal but the only thing that changed from before is him seeing both sides of the struggle. After breaking down when he saw his friends kill each other he never once changed his mind on the subject even slightly. All he did is was get his act together and stop grieving on it but he still believes the same.

Also, an ideal considering that you can't save everyone or that if you decide for something you believe is just you have to believe in / deal with the consequences even if you don't believe them to be just is far closer to the Skybreakers than the Windrunners. I am also very sure that was the reason they are said to have not get along.

I am very sure the 4th ideal is that there is no black and white when it comes to justice but rather that everyone has their own personal justice and to find true justice you have to consider everyone involved, not just your own side.

Until this battle Kaladin believed it was humans versus Parshmen but after spending time with Khen and the others Kaladin realized that what he used to believe to be definite evil were people just like humans who have the right to defend them and theirs just as much as humans do.

In fact I assume upon finding out about the truth of the Voidbringers and the first Desolation or shortly thereafter Kaladin will sweat the 4th ideal.

Pretty that gem message was not about helping only some people but rather was about the concept of parshmen not being people and I assume it was meant in the way of fighting all parshmen (eve killing those that have not attacked humans) being a way to help people (humans only) as opposed to seeing them as people as well and only fighting to save lives, etc.

On the other hand Skybreakers consider the law or whomever they follow to embody absolute justice and follow it to the end, never considering the other side. Nale considers simply that the species who was on the planet first is right regardless of circumstances whereas a windrunner would consider the parshmen to be right because of the first Desolation - but would also consider humans to be right because for millenia they have already lived on the planet and the first Desolation was thousands of years before they were born.

Maybe the Windrunners' 5th ideal is indeed that you cannot save everyone but it wouldn't be that you pick one side and fight for it, then you have to live with the deaths on the other side you caused, that is too close to Skybreakers. Instead it would be about not being able to save everyone simply because everyone's abilities are limited. 

E.g. in the situation at the end of Oathbringer Kaladin was trying desperately to save Dalinar. The 5th Ideal might be something like him realizing he might be able to save the ones with him, but due to the large amount of enemies in front of the gate and not even knowing how to use the gate to get to Dalinar, he won't be able to save Dalinar. Knowing his own limits.

 

 

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@DarkFalz I don't know if you understand all of what is being said. Part of leadership is delegation of duties. Part of that is accepting that one man can't do everything. I saw Kaladin using his vision and duties as Dalinar's bodyguard to keep himself focused on something besides what happened. So in that moment he refused to give up his duty and say the words whatever they are. I don't think that this oath is about killing or figuring out how to deal with the problem of the original voidbringers being the humans.

Edited by Supreme King Z-arc
words
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Yeah, well I don't know if you understand the book. What you think and what's in the book are two separate things. You should remember that the question is what is the 4th ideal of the Windrunners, not which duties are part of leadership. That's completely irrelevant to the Windrunner ideals.

Also, I quoted the book and you say I am wrong because "how I view it"? Might wanna back up that claim cause evidently you are straying far from the things mentioned in the book as well as the intention of this thread.

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On 01/02/2018 at 11:53 PM, RShara said:

I still think the 4th Ideal is likely to be something like, "I will forgive myself when I fail" or "I will allow others to make their own journeys."

I'm with RShara here. I think it will be worded something like, "I will forgive myself my failures, in order to better protect the living."

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He needs to get over letting the king(possible Radiant) die before he can do anything because letting your king die is different from having from on both sides of a war. Elokhar will force him to confront his demons and say the 4th ideal.

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