[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Bigmikey357]

On 3/7/2018 at 2:42 PM, Calderis said:

@Alderant in book from Relis. He was bonded to the blade when Kaladin touched it, and as such he not only heard the screams, but also what the Spren of the blade was saying (which from Kaladin's viewpoint we were not privy too).

Whenever a Radiant touches a blade their bond lends extra life to the blade, and the screams can be heard. But even in those cases, the person bonded to the blade can hear it more strongly than the Radiant themselves. If the blades are always screaming, then their bearers should hear it as well. 

I don't have time right now to look, and maybe I am remembering incorrectly. I'll dig more when I have more time. But I truly believe that for a dead blade not in contact with someone with an active Nahel bond, that the Spren is too lifeless to recognize anything going on. 

Oathbringer remembered Dalinar way before he had an active Nahel bond. This is confirmed by the Stormfather. Dalinar asked why the blade wimpered for him when all the other ones screamed. SF replied it remembered when he won the blade and also when he gave it up. This runs counter to the belief that the blades are unaware of the world around them. It may be limited awareness but the awareness is there.

[Nymeros]

By my definition? Yes. By spren definitions? No.

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Oathbringer remembered Dalinar way before he had an active Nahel bond. This is confirmed by the Stormfather. Dalinar asked why the blade wimpered for him when all the other ones screamed. SF replied it remembered when he won the blade and also when he gave it up. This runs counter to the belief that the blades are unaware of the world around them. It may be limited awareness but the awareness is there.

I already answered that very objection. Anything that connects to your soul should know you. 

On 3/7/2018 at 8:08 PM, Calderis said:

I don't see it as a contradiction. It's no more contradictory than Syl having memories of Kaladin's childhood before they were bonded. Because she is connected to his soul. 

The blades are bonded to a person spiritually. Even if they are mindless they are still present for those events and the connections to them would be imprinted on their spiritweb. When their cognizance is returned to them, the events will as well.

 

[Bigmikey357]

Read that later.  Got it. So does that mean you believe deadeyes retain their Spritual Connection despite being locked into one form in the Physical realm and nearly terminally damaged in the Cognitive realm? I think it's simpler if they are just aware of their surroundings albeit in a limited way, and probably only when they are actually summoned. To each his/her own i guess.

[CrazyRioter]

They do have a connection with their wielders, that's what allows them to be summoned and dismissed in the first place.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Read that later.  Got it. So does that mean you believe deadeyes retain their Spritual Connection despite being locked into one form in the Physical realm and nearly terminally damaged in the Cognitive realm? I think it's simpler if they are just aware of their surroundings albeit in a limited way, and probably only when they are actually summoned. To each his/her own i guess.

They are locked into one form for the same reason they are broken in the Cognitive. A chunk of their spiritweb has been ripped out.

What remains is still capable of connection. It must be in order for a bond, even an artificially created one like Shardbearers use. 

I honestly don't think it's possible to remove the ability to be effected by connection. 

[Bigmikey357]

So if I understand your argument correctly then it's a question of timing. Anything that happens to a deadeye is written into their spiritweb whether they are conscious of it or not. Whenever a Radiant or just someone with the appropriate amount of investiture comes into contact with it then those deadeyes instantly have access to their spiritweb and the memories of its history. At all other times that deadeye is pretty much in a coma. 

If that's the case then we can logically conclude that Adolin is becoming a proto-Radient. Otherwise Adolin holding her doesn't allow communication in the Physical Realm. She cannot be there, conscious, without someone with investiture holding her. She cannot perform the actions she did in TC. I guess it could be argued that the Perpendiculary connecting the 3 Realms is what allows Maya to stay conscious despite not being held by a Radiant and her Connection to Adolin that allows her to be heard by her Shardbearer but I feel that may be overly complex. Also, it kinda makes Adolin and Maya's bond meaningless. Why would Brandon spend page time of a very long book emphasising that connection for it to turn out to be fluffer? 

I think it more likely that the deadeyes still have some vague awareness, and that awareness becomes more pronounced when drawn into the Physical Realm. I think that fits better due to the conversations we have observed in the narrative. For more supporting arguments, recall the conversation between Kal and Syl when he asks why she doesn't need 10 heartbeats to be summoned and why dead blades do. If I remember correctly she says it takes that long for them to wake up or something like that. 

BTW, if that wasn't your argument I apologize. Just trying to understand your reasoning.

[Calderis]

@Bigmikey357 that is essentially my argument, and why I think that the very act of her communication means that she is healing. Even in the case of the perpendicularity, bringing her spiritual aspect to greater prominence shouldn't do anything to "fix" her because the wound would still be there in the Spiritual.

She not healed yet, just improving. 

I don't think it makes any of the evidence of Adolin interacting with the blade meaningless, because if not for those interactions he wouldn't have the correct mindset, or respect from the blade, or traits that are necessary for what is happening to have happened at all. Without that foreshadowing it's just something that could have happened to anyone with a Shardblade. 

43 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Whenever a Radiant or just someone with the appropriate amount of investiture comes into contact with it then those deadeyes instantly have access to their spiritweb and the memories of its history. At all other times that deadeye is pretty much in a coma. 

And for clarification, not just their spiritweb, but the spiritweb of the person they are bonded to. As I said, if something is bonded to your soul, it knows you. Which also means that for what seems to be occurring to be happening, Adolin would have to fit the traits of the blade he is bonded to, otherwise he would be no different then an oath breaker. 

[insert_anagram_here]

Kaladin was able to heal himself even before he said the 1st Ideal right? So if Adolin is that far in his Radiant progression wouldn't he be able to heal his gut wound, or at least heal it partly? Why would you think that Brandon would miss the chance of showing us Adolin self-healing, if he wanted to convince us with certainty that Adolin is reforming a nahel bond at this point? Doesn't that struck you as peculiar?

[Yata]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Kaladin was able to heal himself even before he said the 1st Ideal right? So if Adolin is that far in his Radiant progression wouldn't he be able to heal his gut wound, or at least heal it partly? Why would you think that Brandon would miss the chance of showing us Adolin self-healing, if he wanted to convince us with certainty that Adolin is reforming a nahel bond at this point? Doesn't that struck you as peculiar?

I don't think Adolin is even near to a proto-radiant level.

Also in a proto-radiant a Spren is functionally whole and able to follow his nature. Something a Deadeyes is probably uncapable of doing. I already exposed my point about the not fully recover of the Deadeyes and as it's an high speculation I will not mention it again.

So assuming a Deadeyes is 100% recoverable (the main argument on the forum) and Adolin is actually walking into the Radiancy path. I assume he will not gain anything Surgebinding related until Maya is restored. Probably in practice this would mean a behavior similar to what we see with the average Skybreaker. The candidate/Adolin will need to reach a quite deep Oath Progression before the actual Nahel Bond is enstablish.

Of course in the Skybreaker's case is all of a common agreement between Nale and the Highspren while in the hypotetical Adolin's case will be in the actual possibiility of Maya to be fully functional to actually start a proper Nahel Bond

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think it's unfair to say that Adolin enjoys killing. Sadeas is the only character on Adolin's bodycount that he felt anything approaching enjoyment. And even that had him questioning himself throughout OB. Mostly we see regret and at times even disgust with the act of killing. For textual evidence, refer to his scenes during the Battle of Narak.

Thank you for reminding me of the Battle of Narak... I went back to it and looked at it.

Quote

He charged the short distance to the Parshendi and launched himself into their ranks, sweeping lethally with his Blade. Bodies fell dead with burned eyes. Five, then ten. His soldiers joined him, thrusting spears into the Parshendi, cutting off their awful song. It was shockingly easy. These Parshendi abandoned their song reluctantly, coming out of their trance disoriented and confused. Those who fought did so without coordination, and Adolin’s swift attack didn’t allow time for them to summon their strange sparking energy. It was like killing sleeping men. Adolin had done dirty work with his Shards before. Damnation, any time you took the field with Plate and Blade against ordinary men, you did dirty work—slaughtering those who might as well have been children with sticks. This was worse though. Often they’d come to just before he killed them—blinking to consciousness, shaking themselves awake, only to find themselves face-to-face with a full Shardbearer in the rain, murdering their friends. Those looks of horror haunted Adolin as he sent corpse after corpse to the ground. Where was the Thrill that usually propelled him through this kind of butchery? He needed it. Instead, he felt only nausea. Standing amid a field of the newly dead—the acrid smoke of burned-out eyes curling up through the rain—he trembled and dropped his Blade in disgust. It vanished to mist. Something crashed into him from behind. He lurched over a corpse—stumbling but keeping his feet—and spun about. A Shardblade smashed against his chest, spreading a glowing web of cracks across his breastplate. He deflected the next blow with his forearm and stepped back, taking a battle stance. She stood before him, rain streaming from her armor. What had she named herself? Eshonai. Inside his helm, Adolin grinned at the Shardbearer. This he could do. An honest fight. He raised his hands, the Shardblade forming from mist as he swung upward and deflected her attack in a sweeping parry. Thank you, he thought.

Chapter 83: Time's Illusion - Words of Radiance

I get how someone can take this as "not enjoying killing", but he's not disgusted that he is killing. He is disgusted at how easy it is for him to kill them all, at the expressions on the faces of those he slaughters. He wishes for the Thrill to help him, but Nergaoul is already gone towards Jah Keved. What completely makes the point moot is, that he is happy for Eshonai to appear and eager to fight her - to the death, no less. He even thanks her for it.

All in all, Adolin might not enjoy slaughter, but he enjoys the challenge of a fight, which also always is linked to the possibility of killing someone. Lift, our only other Edgedancer on of which we can derive typical Edgedancer behavior, hates hurting others. Wyndle, her spren, the only other cultivationspren we know, hates being made a weapon used to hurt others. This doesn't match.

But there was more that it reminded me of. A certain flashback of Adolin's father to be precise.

Quote

Dalinar reached the squat wall and leaped, propelling himself in a mighty jump. He gained just enough height to grab one of the crenels of the wall’s top. Men raised hammers to pound his fingers, but he hurled himself over the lip and onto the wall walk, crashing down amid panicked defenders. He jerked the release rope on his hammer—dropping it on an enemy behind—then swung out with his fist, sending men broken and screaming. This was almost too easy! He seized his hammer, then brought it up and swung it in a wide arc, tossing men from the wall like leaves before a gust of wind. Just beyond him, Sadeas kicked over a ballista, destroying the device with a casual blow. Gavilar attacked with his Blade, dropping corpses by the handful, their eyes burning. Up here, the fortification worked against the defenders, leaving them cramped and clumped up—perfect for Shardbearers to destroy. Dalinar surged through them, and in a few moments likely killed more men than he had in his entire life. At that, he felt a surprising yet profound dissatisfaction. This was not about his skill, his momentum, or even his reputation. You could have replaced him with a toothless gaffer and produced practically the same result.He gritted his teeth against that sudden useless emotion. He dug deeply within, and found the Thrill waiting. It filled him, driving away dissatisfaction. Within moments he was roaring his pleasure. Nothing these men did could touch him. He was a destroyer, a conqueror, a glorious maelstrom of death. A god.

Chapter 11: The Rift - Oathbringer

Dalinar felt dissatisfaction at how easy all of it was, too, but instead found the Thrill to numb this emotion. The exact thing, that Adolin searched for.

Make of that what you will, but I believe, that it shows quite well how similar Adolin actually is to the Blackthorn. Him brutally - as indicated by how graphically it was described - killing Sadeas is just another outgrowth of that.

Funnily enough, there is another scene in the same book as the Battle of Narak, that has no mention of the Thrill, but shows Adolin grinning at killing loads of Parshendi.

Quote

 

They broke off their singing as he smashed into them with the force of a boulder. He got his feet underneath him, mentally sending a summons to his Blade, then slammed his shoulder into one group. He began to lay about himself with punches, smashing the chest of one Parshendi, then the head of another. The soldiers’ carapace armor cracked with sickening sounds, and the punches flung them backward, knocking some off the cliff. Adolin took a few hits on his forearms before his Blade finally re-formed in his hands. He swung about, so focused on holding his ground that he didn’t notice Jakamav until the Shardbearer in green fell in beside him, crushing Parshendi with his hammer. “Thanks for tossing a platoon’s worth of Parshendi down on my head,” Jakamav called as he swung. “That was a wonderful surprise.” Adolin grinned, pointing. “Chrysalis.”

Chapter 26: The Feather - Words of Radiance

In conclusion, I don't think Edgedancers actively sought the fight like Adolin does. They are deadly, yes. They are feared, because of that, yes. But that doesn't mean, that they particularly enjoy killing or decided to solve all their problems with it. Look at how Lift emphasizes stealing back the King's Drop, because she believes, that stealing doesn't hurt anybody, and that Wyndle doesn't like to hurt people. They kill if they must, but they don't seek it. They don't enjoy death, as seen how deeply moved Lift is everytime she sees someone dying - despite herself having seen so much death in her life already.

Quote

“Oh! Yeah, I’ve got one a those.” She thrust her hand to the side. Mist formed into a small, glittering Shardblade. . . . Or no, it was just a pole. A silver pole with a rudimentary crossguard.

Lift shrugged. “Wyndle doesn’t like hurting people.”

Doesn’t like . . . Dalinar blinked. What kind of world did he live in where swords didn’t like hurting people?

“A Fused escaped from this city a short time ago,” Dalinar said, “carrying an enormous ruby. I don’t know why they wanted it, and I’d rather not find out. Can you steal it back?”

“Sure. Easy.”

“You’ll find it with a Fused who can move with a power similar to your own. A woman.”

“Like I said. Easy.”

“Easy? I think you might find—”

“Relax, grandpa. Steal the rock. I can do that.”

She took a deep breath, then exploded with Stormlight. Her eyes turned a pearly, glowing white.

“It’s just us two, then?”

“Yes.”

“Right. Good luck with the army.”

Chapter 117: Champion with Nine Shadows - Oathbringer

 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Kaladin was able to heal himself even before he said the 1st Ideal right? So if Adolin is that far in his Radiant progression wouldn't he be able to heal his gut wound, or at least heal it partly? Why would you think that Brandon would miss the chance of showing us Adolin self-healing, if he wanted to convince us with certainty that Adolin is reforming a nahel bond at this point? Doesn't that struck you as peculiar?

Until Maya is fully healed, and he has a bond with an actual whole Nahel Spren, why would he have any abilities?

I'm pretty sure Ive said this previously in this thread, but I think until she's healed completely, Adolin is essentially a "Radiant with no powers." he has to live by the Ideals or he fails, but he's sworn no actual oath, and the "bond" is still a fragile thing built upon the gem created bond. 

He gets to have the limitations, though they probably don't seem as such since they just mean being who he is, and none of the normal benefits except aparrently summoning Maya a few second earlier. 

As to Adolin's "feelings towards fighting," again, I think basing everything of if Lift is a problem. And for someone who hates the idea of being used to kill, wyndle was dropping some very heavy handed hints throughout Edgedancer that lift needed to learn to summon him as a blade. The defensive bar she ends up summoning, like every Radiant weapon, comes from lifts wants/needs. 

Quote

Inside his helm, Adolin grinned at the Shardbearer. This he could do. An honest fight. He raised his hands, the Shardblade forming from mist as he swung upward and deflected her attack in a sweeping parry. Thank you, he thought.

And this, unsurprisingly, reads exactly the opposite to me. At the time this fight starts, Adolin was wading through the masses of the Stormform Parshendi who were obliviously focused on their task. He felt disgusted and haunted by killing what were essentially defenseless people. Yes he wished for the thrill to numb that, because that's how Battles have worked for the entire time he's been on the plains, like every other Alethi for the past 6 years, but it wasn't there and he hated what he had to be doing. 

Then Eshonai shows up. His "thank you" wasn't about a challenge. It wasn't some search for glory through fighting someone more able. It was, in his own internal monologue "an honest fight." not the slaughter of unaware masses. It was something that he didn't have to feel dirty about.

I know if I had to choose between killing tens or hundreds of defenseless people on a battlefield, or a single fight that actually risks me harm, I'd choose the fight. The first feels to much like a mass murder, no matter how necessary the deaths. Adolin's feelings make perfect sense see to me that context. If I were in a world that had the thrill and was forced into that first situation, I'd want it too. Anything that numbed the horror of a necessary task at the point would help. There's a difference between fighting someone, and slaughter. 

[Isilel]

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 Whenever a Radiant or just someone with the appropriate amount of investiture comes into contact with it then those deadeyes instantly have access to their spiritweb and the memories of its history. At all other times that deadeye is pretty much in a coma.

I will note here that Vasher seemed to have no problems with handling dead shardblades, so it probably has to be a Radiant, not just somebody heavily invested. Agree with everything else.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Isilel said:

I will note here that Vasher seemed to have no problems with handling dead shardblades, so it probably has to be a Radiant, not just somebody heavily invested. Agree with everything else.

Agreed. It's the bond, not investiture, that they react to. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Calderis

[anna]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

In conclusion, I don't think Edgedancers actively sought the fight like Adolin does. They are deadly, yes. They are feared, because of that, yes. But that doesn't mean, that they particularly enjoy killing or decided to solve all their problems with it. Look at how Lift emphasizes stealing back the King's Drop, because she believes, that stealing doesn't hurt anybody, and that Wyndle doesn't like to hurt people. They kill if they must, but they don't seek it. They don't enjoy death, as seen how deeply moved Lift is everytime she sees someone dying - despite herself having seen so much death in her life already.

My take on this is that Adolin might have Edgedancer potential, but that he also needs more character growth before he can live up to their Ideals.  It's the whole "Journey before destination" thing, right?  He's not there yet, but maybe in a couple of books he will be.

[Tobbzn]

He was bonded to a cultivationspren when he soiled his Shartplate with fertilizer.

Coinidence? I think not!

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, anna said:

My take on this is that Adolin might have Edgedancer potential, but that he also needs more character growth before he can live up to their Ideals.  It's the whole "Journey before destination" thing, right?  He's not there yet, but maybe in a couple of books he will be.

The whole argument going on is that a bond is already forming. I don't think, that any cultivationspren - Maya or another one - would choose him, because of his general attitude to both fighting - dishonesty and honesty in the fight is irrelevant. Fighting is always connected with harming/killing your opponent and Adolin likes this in duels or on the battlefield. - and his priorities. Yes, he saves the kid - because he had to opportunity to do so -, but also doesn't care what happens to him afterwards. He just shoves it into the arms of a random soldier and is eager to get back to the fighting again. This doesn't show care for me. Besides, why hasn't some other spren chosen him then?

Then there are arguments that constantly get flipped and flopped around, like first Adolin and Lift are alike enough to be a sign of Adolin's Edgedancer compatibility and when that point gets challenged, suddenly Lift and Wyndle are atypical from "normal Edgedancers" and "normal cultivationspren".

I'm beginning to think, that this discussion is futile. Both sides of the argument are too entrenched.

Edited March 16, 2018 by SLNC

[KnightRadiant301]

Also Brandon's said that there is a way for Shards to unsplinter, so that could also mean that he would provide a possible way for shardblades to turn radiant again. This could happen after the bearer starts swearing oath's or acts like the order.

[insert_anagram_here]

So to summarize, Adolin is becoming a Radiant without showing any Radiant or proto-Radiant signs, he is becoming an Edgedancer but has nothing in common with the other Edgedancer we know (because the other Edgedancer we know is a 'special case') and Maya is coming back to life even if she isn't showing any different signs than any other dead Shartblades we know. 

This whole argument stands on the 3 heartbeats of difference, which could be explained by Dalinar's Perpendicularity.

I'm sorry but it's not convincing enough for me.

[Bigmikey357]

I believe Adolin has the personality makeup to attract a cultivation spren and become an Edgedancer based on what we've been told about the Order and Lyft's unconventional example. I know the forum is split on this; I'm adding my voice to the pro-Adolin contingent. Now, crazy theory time. What if the reason Adolin hasn't attracted a spren so far is that Maya is giving off possession vibes due to Adolin's shows of respect and love for her? We've seen that spren become mighty possessive of their bondmates and vice-versa. Syl bats away gloryspren when Kaladin attracts them; Shallan begs Pattern not to die and leave her even though the Cryptics would send her another and her powers wouldn't be permanently lost. What Adolin and Maya have isn't a Nahel bond obviously but it is a bond, quite possibly a strong enough one to repel searching spren. It's certainly stronger than the average Shardbearer bond everyone else holding dead blades has. If it weren't then Maya couldn't possibly made herself heard by Adolin, couldn't have warned him of danger, couldn't have shown satisfaction at the opportunity to go toe to toe with the Thunderclast, couldn't have shown resignation when Adolin hands her off to someone wearing Plate.

Last thing. We know that when a Radiant touches a dead blade they can hear screaming but the person bonded to that blade can hear speech (see 4 on 1 duel, Kaladin's Last Clap). Maybe Renarin can touch Maya to clear up the signal and her and Adolin can have a nice chat.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Bigmikey357
Adding more thoughts

[anna]

24 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Besides, why hasn't some other spren chosen him then?

Have we seen spren choose anybody with a deadeye blade yet?  Dalinar didn't really give the Stormfather much choice...

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This whole argument stands on the 3 heartbeats of difference, which could be explained by Dalinar's Perpendicularity.

I expect the Perpendicularity had some role to play in the 3 heartbeats difference, maybe the massive amount of Investiture somehow strengthened the gemstone-bond?

Regardless of what initially caused the difference, Adolin now knows what type of spren Maya is and what order she belongs to.  I wouldn't be surprised if he learns more about the Edgedancers after the battle, and tries to live their values to see if it eases her pain.

[Carla Bridge Four]

I still think he will be something different. Not a "Radiant", and not a "non Radiant". He is kind, but he is a soldier. He loves his sword, he loves his guards, he loves his storming wardrobe!

But we fail to see that we won't have the same 10 orders-order we had before. This is a new era for Radiants, the examples are off course Venli and Renarin.

So, Adolin will have something with Maya. A new kind of bond? A differnt sort of Nahel bond? A non-power Radiant? The only one who knows is Brandon.

I also think Adolin must be special if he somehow attracts the heat of passionate arguments. It can be his relationship with Shallan, or his no-bond with Maya, his flatness or deepness. He takes out the most fierce deffenders and attackers. That speaks well of his character, isn't it?

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, anna said:

Have we seen spren choose anybody with a deadeye blade yet?

Elhokar.

38 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I also think Adolin must be special if he somehow attracts the heat of passionate arguments. It can be his relationship with Shallan, or his no-bond with Maya, his flatness or deepness. He takes out the most fierce deffenders and attackers. That speaks well of his character, isn't it?

I think it more has to do with his lack of truly introspective moments. It is hard to determine his goals and intentions, so he raises loads of speculation. Of course, that will be polarizing.

In a way, his lack of characterization is the reason for his controversial nature.

Edited March 16, 2018 by SLNC

[anna]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Elhokar.

I forgot about Elhokar

[IronBars]

Admittedly i haven't read all nine pages of this thread, but as @Carla Bridge Four pointed out seems most likely Adolin will have a different type of bond to the regular KR.

Adolin being in Shadesmer, maya going through the perpendicularity, to me this doesn't point to maye becoming fully alive but just more alive then she was.

An argument could be made for Adolin joining a number of KR orders, yet he has not attracted a spren from any, most likely reason is that he is a "nearly" KR character, what i mean by that is he exemplifies some traits from numerous orders (but in a narrow way not broadly like a KR would) but doesn't share the other traits associated with those same orders.

kind of like hes a pyramid shape fitting in the hole for a cone shape, horrible analogy sorry,