[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Alderant said:

Gotcha. No worries. I just wasn't sure of your point in the last paragraph.

Sure, thanks for pointing it out to me 

3 minutes ago, BillLangdon said:

I personally do think that Maya is somehow waking up, perhaps with some heavy influence of the incredible power that Dalinar is manifesting, and perhaps because of Adolin’s pureness of heart, BUT.....

My money is on him not becoming a Radiant.

From a narrative perspective, I think it makes sense for Brandon to make a main character who is as involved with the radiants as Adolin is, simply remain human and non-radiant. His character has a really good arc going on right now. Everyone in his immediate circle is becoming Radiant, God-Like. He comes from a world where he was not only the most loved, but also the best, and now suddenly he is being left behind by people who otherwise would not rival him. But he takes it in stride and continues to do his best. He is the best literary example of unaided humanity being good enough.

 

The problem I personally have with this speculative character arc is it's basically static. Oathbringer has had Adolin deal with everyone around him becoming a Radiant and it didn't create any struggle in him. It did not drive any of his decision making nor did it generate any "moments" for his character. He basically agreed to keep on being the man he has always been and so be it. Him being "normal" has not been a defining moment for him nor has it given us any particular insights as to what it means to be the "normal one" around Radiants. This just never happened because Adolin is just not the right character for this. He's a Shardbearer, he's the best fighter in all Alethkar, he's one of the best military leader (even if he refuses to acknowledge it) and he is now the Highprince: not being a Radiant is just never factored in.

Hence, I do not find Adolin staying "normal" has great story potential. At best, Brandon will pull a few strings and have Adolin muse some on the matter. At worst, he'll remain a static character and, after three books, it is either Brandon develops Adolin, he kills him or he turns him into a Gary Stu.

Also, I find the narrative has yet to deal with why some people are being made Radiants and why others are being skipped. If Adolin never becomes a Radiant, then the narrative has to make it clear why because just being a Kholin should be sufficient given what we know of the process.

[Greywatch]

6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm with you here.  I definitely get upset as well when people say that arguments in support of Shalladin, or just shipping arguments in general, lack objectivity, and that such arguments are inherently less rational than arguments supporting a different perspective or on other subjects.  Which is exactly what I was being told earlier in this thread.  (For what it's worth, I haven't seen you personally do this.)  Adolin comes into it, because no matter how attenuated the reasoning, I don't generally see the same type of disparaging "oh, you can't actually do an objective analysis on this" or "oh, you are just drawing your interpretation out of thin air" implications come into the picture when it's an Adolin-positive argument.

To that end, you and thegatorgirl00 are definitely interpreting Adolin's behavior as positively as possible in that scene, and I doubt you'd see much, if any, push back that the subject is too subjective to analyze or that you are imaging those interpretations with lack of textual evidence, given as similar arguments have been made before without it (or if that occurred, it has been met with extreme consternation.)  That was my point.

I'm a huge shipper and that sort of talk bothers me immensely as well. I'm still going to push back when I see it, and I see jofwu as well earlier had a great post about it.

This being so subjective, it doesn't feel like I'm grasping at anything, or that I was pushing more than the reality of the text allows. What I said was actually my own personal first impression on reading, and it hasn't changed in further discussions. I didn't go into it with the idea that I was going to try and put a good spin on it, that was just how I read it. People who like a character are going to resist a bit when a negative reading comes around, and I realize we've all got to manage our feelings to be considerate of each other.

I also don't think that an idea is better because it's a more cynical take, or inherently better because it's a more ideal take. Though sometimes people are just going to disagree. Sometimes there's a bias for a character, and sometimes there's a bias against a character. People are also naturally going to be defensive of characters they like, as I can be about Kaladin (and Adolin, and Dalinar, etc.), and people are going to be defensive of arguments they put forward, and sometimes they're all at odds with each other. There's bias on all sides, and it doesn't mean that one side is more rational or more subjective. Sometimes consternation is going to happen, and an argument just isn't going to get traction with some people, and there isn't necessarily one reason that happens. There are many reasons that happens, often more than one reason per person, because people are complicated and we're all bringing tons of baggage and previous experience and emotions into it. 

I don't want to assume, but I can guess at reasons. Maybe it's because people like Adolin. But that's not the only reason that could possibly exist, and it doesn't feel great to have one's entire stance reduced to 'it's because you like Adolin'. So having been on the receiving end of that a bit in my life online, I try my best to not make assumptions and leave peoples' motivations out of it.

If people are being disrespectful, like, you know, please let staff know. I want 17S to be a place to have lots of great character discussions, as that's 100% my jam. But people are allowed to disagree. I'll use myself as an example, for ease of discourse. If there's an interpretation put forward that goes against how I read something, I'll disagree with it (obviously as respectfully as I can). Let's say this one scene interpretation of Adolin. Even when I try to dissect my own reaction to the take you presented, it's nebulous. There was a lot going on. There was a gut rejection of something that felt unfair to a character I liked; there was a dissonance between that take and how I've always read it; the one take felt "untrue", disconnected from what my sense of the reality of the book is. There's more than that, but that's all that I feel able to put words to. 

When I disagree, it's not out of a desire to inflict the feeling of said consternation. I can only just say my point as wholeheartedly as I can. Disagreeing, even a lot of disagreement, a natural part of discourse. If there's dismissiveness, condescension, a "tone" - that's not good and that's worth being reported. But I really don't think there's anything wrong with disagreement in and of itself. If the extreme consternation has been disrespectful, let us know! But one idea being favoured over another isn't inherently an evil. That's just going to happen when there are opinions involved, sometimes more than one opinion per person.  

Ah... At this point, I think I've gotten quite off topic from Maya's revival.  Oops. Wanna continue in PMs? 

[Chaos]

I would indeed like this to focus on Maya. Please feel free to make additional threads on any of these sub topics though!

[CrazyRioter]

I agree with @maxal that reviving Maya is a great way to give Adolin a distinctive character arc that's different then "token normal" or "just another superpowered character".

Token normal characters tend to end up sidelined and forgotten about by the narrative. Or turned into comic relief.

I also think reviving Maya could have huge implications for the story as a whole, giving first hand details on what actually happened during the Recreance for one thing.

 

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I also think reviving Maya could have huge implications for the story as a whole, giving first hand details on what actually happened during the Recreance for one thing.

Yeah. Adolin is a good character, don't get me wrong, but I'm far more interested in Mayalaran for precisely this reason.

A spren that died in the Recreance. 

[Isilel]

12 hours ago, BillLangdon said:

From a narrative perspective, I think it makes sense for Brandon to make a main character who is as involved with the radiants as Adolin is, simply remain human and non-radiant. His character has a really good arc going on right now. Everyone in his immediate circle is becoming Radiant, God-Like. He comes from a world where he was not only the most loved, but also the best, and now suddenly he is being left behind by people who otherwise would not rival him.

Right, I was with you there pre-OB. I do think that Adolin remaining normal and having to deal with the drastically changing world and his place in it had a lot of potential. Particularly if he also became a king of Alethkar - personally, I was expecting Elhokar to die since WoK and it was clear ditto that somebody other than Dalinar would have to step up. So, IMHO there could have been a lot of very interesting issues and opportunities for character conflict/growth there - how do you, as a normal person, who used to be sort-of superpowered due to your magical equipement and extraordinary martial talent, adjust to a world with superbeings, who leave you in the dust? How do you, as a ruler of a nation, deal with said superbeings, who are being lead by no other than your father, the redoubtable Dalinar Kholin? While also dodging the discovery of your murder of a political rival, possibly being blackmailed by people who know/suspect, etc. It could have been great!

However, instead of laying foundations for any of this, "Oathbringer" took a complete left turn on the subject and now it is just plain too late to go back there. Particularly since some of these matters have already been dealt with and "closed", if in a rather perfunctory and brief way. Instead, the "Maya" plot-line was initiated, and it would be doubly disappointing to watch it become largely inconsequential too.

 

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. Adolin is a good character, don't get me wrong, but I'm far more interested in Mayalaran for precisely this reason.

A spren that died in the Recreance. 

Also this. The potential there is huge. In fact, it may be absolutely crucial to have a Recreanced spren return to sapience and speak for humanity to her peers, as from everything we have seen they won't have much of a chance without the support of the majority of sapient spren and the war against Odium spreading into Shadesmar. As long as the voidspren/ spren of the Fused/ corporeal Fused can move around Shadesmar at will and impose their rules without resistance, those who oppose Odium remain at an unsurmountable disadvantage.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I agree with @maxal that reviving Maya is a great way to give Adolin a distinctive character arc that's different then "token normal" or "just another superpowered character".

Token normal characters tend to end up sidelined and forgotten about by the narrative. Or turned into comic relief.

I also think reviving Maya could have huge implications for the story as a whole, giving first hand details on what actually happened during the Recreance for one thing.

 

Yes, I agree this. I definitely agree with "token characters" usually ending up forgotten by the narrative or turned into comical relief which is exactly what I felt happened to Adolin in OB. He starts up strong with a few interesting thoughts, but he is then shoved into the background and turned into a comical relief in Kholinar. For instance, him being flight sick and not dealing well with the activity is used as "something funny" instead of being used to reinforce Adolin's feeling of inadequacy (he can't even fly without throwing his guts out!). This was one moment where Adolin being "normal" against "Radiants and squires" could have been used, but it wasn't. It was used for comedy purposes. Hence, I find there is little interest in going down thus path with the character. If Adolin were a main protagonist, then yeah, perhaps it'd be an interesting arc because then, the author wouldn't be using him as tapestry or as a comical relief, but this is not the case.

I do agree him reviving Maya puts him somewhere half-way in between Radiant and "normal guy". I always felt this story had the strongest potential for Adolin's character given his position within the story (not a protagonist, but not a minor character either).

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Right, I was with you there pre-OB. I do think that Adolin remaining normal and having to deal with the drastically changing world and his place in it had a lot of potential. Particularly if he also became a king of Alethkar - personally, I was expecting Elhokar to die since WoK and it was clear ditto that somebody other than Dalinar would have to step up. So, IMHO there could have been a lot of very interesting issues and opportunities for character conflict/growth there - how do you, as a normal person, who used to be sort-of superpowered due to your magical equipement and extraordinary martial talent, adjust to a world with superbeings, who leave you in the dust? How do you, as a ruler of a nation, deal with said superbeings, who are being lead by no other than your father, the redoubtable Dalinar Kholin? While also dodging the discovery of your murder of a political rival, possibly being blackmailed by people who know/suspect, etc. It could have been great!

However, instead of laying foundations for any of this, "Oathbringer" took a complete left turn on the subject and now it is just plain too late to go back there. Particularly since some of these matters have already been dealt with and "closed", if in a rather perfunctory and brief way. Instead, the "Maya" plot-line was initiated, and it would be doubly disappointing to watch it become largely inconsequential too.

Once again, I find @Isilel found great words to express part of my thoughts. While I have never been big on the "Adolin as King" potential story arc, I did think him seeing everyone around him becoming Radiants, him bearing a dead-Blade, him being the son of a "God" would be elements to be used to create great conflict with the character. Him needing to deal with the repercussion of murdering Sadeas, really deal with them, in a narrative where there are consequences was also very interesting, but the story absolutely did not go down this path.

All of this has come and pass. Brandon took a stance with Adolin's character and he made him "not care" about events around him in ways which could alter either his decision making or his action taking. I also agree all of this has come and pass, in a most unsatisfactory way, IMHO, but it has nonetheless come to pass. Nothing would anger and disappoint me more than Brandon turning Maya into an arc NOT revolving around Adolin, to steal it from him and give it to someone else, just as he stolen the Sadeas arc and gave it to Shallan. I digress however, but all this to say, Adolin as a normal guy doesn't have much potential within the narrative given how the narrative has been written so far. 

[Jofwu]

For those of you who think there's not a nahel bond involved, do you have any specific ideas of how she might be coming back alive? Or if you think she's not, what do you suppose is happening to her?

[insert_anagram_here]

Quote

Questioner

With Syl being able to be revived, is Adolin ever going to be able to revive his own blade, or--

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that would be very difficult, because the original-- in most cases, the original person who broke the oath would have to be the one.

Quote

Adolin gritted his teeth, summoning his Shardblade. Without Plate, he’d be as squishy as anyone else. He had to be careful, tactical. “This is what you were designed for, isn’t it?” Adolin said softly as his Blade dropped into his hand. “It was for fighting things like that. Shardblades are impractically long for duels, and Plate is overkill even on the battlefield. But against a monster of stone . . .” He felt something. A stirring on the wind. “You want to fight it, don’t you?” Adolin asked. “It reminds you of when you were alive.”Something tickled his mind, very faint, like a sigh. A single word: Mayalaran. A . . . name? “Right, Maya,” Adolin said. “Let’s bring that thing down.” 

How do we even know that "Mayalaran" is the deadeye spren's name? It could be the name of the "original person who broke the oath" and maybe "Maya" has been trying to explain to Adolin, that she can only be revived by the original KR that bonded her, by shouting the KR name at him. And that person could probably be dead since the Recreance for all we know.

I'm not trying to shoot down people's hopes here, but what I'm trying to say is, we are jumping through a lot of assumptions as it is. Quite frankly, at this point, we do not have enough information to know what is going on exactly with Maya, especially because this isn't just another normal nahel bond. It's a deadeye spren.

2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

For those of you who think there's not a nahel bond involved, do you have any specific ideas of how she might be coming back alive? Or if you think she's not, what do you suppose is happening to her?

Like a lot of other people have said in this thread already, all the clues that we have that she might be coming back to life coincide with Dalinar's Perpendicularity. We just haven't got enough information to exclude Perpendicularity as a cause, as we don't have enough information to pinpoint that Adolin is indeed causing Maya's revival, by taking the right actions. Since she is the only case we currently know of a deadeye spren, all the symptoms could all be part of what the condition of being a deadeye spren actually is. Too little information leads to inconclusive results.

Edited March 10, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[CrazyRioter]

I think it's a bit of stretch to say that Taln's temporary lucidity shows that Maya's behaviour is due to the Perpendicularity when the type of damage is likely extremely different even if the result looks somewhat similar. It's a bit like saying you can treat a concussion by administering Narcan just because Narcan works on somebody with an opoid overdose and somebody with an opoid overdose might have outwardly similar symptoms to a person with a concussion. 

[maxal]

37 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Like a lot of other people have said in this thread already, all the clues that we have that she might be coming back to life coincide with Dalinar's Perpendicularity. We just haven't got enough information to exclude Perpendicularity as a cause, as we don't have enough information to pinpoint that Adolin is indeed causing Maya's revival, by taking the right actions. Since she is the only case we currently know of a deadeye spren, all the symptoms could all be part of what the condition of being a deadeye spren actually is. Too little information leads to inconclusive results.

We do know Adolin talking to Maya is significant, hence the argument "it was just the perpendicularity" is moot. We do not know everything, but we do know Adolin's behavior did play a factor in. We do know the only way a spren can gain conscience of the physical realm is through the Nahel Bond. Has something else happened because of the perpendicularity? Hard to tell, but given none of the Adolin/Maya interaction happened precisely at this specific moment, considering she did save him before it was even open, I find it hard to conclude it is the dominating factor.

[insert_anagram_here]

Okay, I will not comment on opinions since everyone is allowed to have one and just pointing out something as opinionated isn't useful in a discussion. (and of course quite rude) So I'll just say that whatever I'm not addressing I consider it a matter of opinion and I agree that we disagree.

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

We do know the only way a spren can gain conscience of the physical realm is through the Nahel Bond

Do you think that Maya has shown signs of consciousness (I'm guessing conscience was a typo) in the physical realm? I only see her manifesting as a blade in the physical realm, so I don't know what you are referring to, so I currently disagree.

27 minutes ago, maxal said:

Hard to tell, but given none of the Adolin/Maya interaction happened precisely at this specific moment, considering she did save him before it was even open, I find it hard to conclude it is the dominating factor.

The Adolin/Maya interaction happened in Shadesmar so there isn't a reason for the Perpendicularity to be in effect at that point. Whatever happened in the Physical Realm was because of Perpendicularity, because that's what brought them into the Physical Realm in the first place.

Edited March 10, 2018 by insert_anagram_here
edit: conscience typo

[Guest]

I don't know. The fact, that deadeyed spren look like they have been defaced in the Cognitive Realm, does suggest additional Cognitive damage for me. Like Taln has. The difference between Maya and Taln is, that Taln has a completely intact Spiritual aspect. I agree with that. I get that.

What I don't get is the assumption, that because part of Maya's Spiritual aspect was ripped out due to the bond break on the Day of Recreance, her complete Spiritual aspect is completely unusable as a "healing template". (Going with Calderis explanation here, which I actually found concise and very understandable. Thank you for that.) It is damaged, which is reflected in her rather... primitive ability of communication, but why shouldn't the rest, that is still there not have healed her to some extent? Temporarily - like it did with Taln.

[maxal]

Just now, insert_anagram_here said:

Okay, I will not comment on opinions since everyone is allowed to have one and just pointing out something as opinionated isn't useful in a discussion. (and of course quite rude) So I'll just say that whatever I'm not addressing I consider it a matter of opinion and I agree that we disagree.

We have a WoB which states Adolin talking to Maya is significant. This isn't an opinion, but a fact. I don't know why you say it is rude to point it out. We have additional evidence which disapproves, partially, your theory. Why calling me rude for pointing it out?

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Do you think that Maya has shown signs of conscience in the physical realm? I only see her manifesting as a blade in the physical realm, so I don't know what you are referring to, so I currently disagree.

She said her name to Adolin, she brushed his mind, she warned him of danger: if this is not a conscience of the physical realm, than I dunno what is. Sure, she was in Blade form but while being in Blade form, she did acts which required conscience to the extend we haven't seen before. I don't know how it can be argued Maya has had zero conscience of of the physical realm.

2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The Adolin/Maya interaction happened in Shadesmar so there isn't a reason for the Perpendicularity to be in effect at that point. Whatever happened in the Physical Realm was because of Perpendicularity, because that's what brought them into the Physical Realm in the first place.

You do not know that. Maya has not had any conscience while being in Shadesmar prior to Adolin being attacked. She took no direct action prior to this moment and Ico did state deadeyes aren't able to act on their own. Your argument is the equivalent of saying nothing happened, it would have happened in between any dead-eye and any bearer: all dead-eyes have the same capacity.

You do not know the perpendicularity is having any effect, but we do know Adolin's behavior is having one. This is confirmed by WoB. Also, I find it a rather moot point to write an arc with Adolin having an interaction with Maya only to make it the by-product of the perpendicularity. On a narrative point of view, it makes literally no sense because the greater majority of readers aren't even going to think both events are related because there is nothing in the textual which suggest they are.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree that on the narrative level it doesn't make sense to set up something like this and then have it amount to nothing significant in the long run.  There's been too much setup with Adolin talking to her, and then interacting with her in Shadesmar, and then what happened during the battle for it to make sense for it to be nothing significant in the grand scheme of things.

Brandon does like to mess with reader expectations, but he does it in satisfying ways and I think messing with what the narrative is suggesting in this case would be highly unsatisfying.

[maxal]

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

I agree that on the narrative level it doesn't make sense to set up something like this and then have it amount to nothing significant in the long run.  There's been too much setup with Adolin talking to her, and then interacting with her in Shadesmar, and then what happened during the battle for it to make sense for it to be nothing significant in the grand scheme of things.

Brandon does like to mess with reader expectations, but he does it in satisfying ways and I think messing with what the narrative is suggesting in this case would be highly unsatisfying.

True enough, but then again, he did mess up with the Sadeas arc in ways some really find unsatisfying.... Who knows what Brandon finds interesting to read? If he messes this arc up, it wouldn't be the first time he messes up an arc.

[BraidedRose]

23 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

For those of you who think there's not a nahel bond involved, do you have any specific ideas of how she might be coming back alive? Or if you think she's not, what do you suppose is happening to her?

Let me try to summarize the arguments that I and others have made in this thread. 

First let me preface this by saying a couple of things. This is going to retread ground that has already been covered and I am well aware of the arguments on the other side. Also, the way I see it, people who are promoting the Nahel bond theory are operating under two assumptions:

1. Assumption #1: Maya must be healing in order to display the behaviors we saw in OB

2. Assumption #2: Only a Nahel bond is capable of healing a deadeye spren

You may believe that there is sufficient evidence to support those assumptions or you may not, but they are both assumptions that have not been proven by the text as of yet so I will try to summarize why some people think one or both of those assumptions may be wrong. I will take them one at a time.

Assumption #1: Every potentially unusual thing we see from Maya happens either in Shadesmar or after Dalinar summons the perpendicularity. Protecting Adolin from one of the Fused happens in Shadesmar. Adolin senses Maya's name and is able to summon her in 7 heartbeats during the perpendicularity. These are the primary three indications that something unusual could be happening with Maya. So the question is, could all of this be happening even if Maya is not healing? WoB tells us that deadeyes retain some consciousness. The exact extent of that consciousness is not stated so we are left to infer at this point.

The Stormfather tells Dalinar that Oathbringer remembers him and hates him less than he hates others. That tells us that deadeye consciousness includes the ability to remember some things and to have an emotional response to specific humans. There is one unusual thing that is certainly happening between Maya and Adolin, which is that he talks to her like she has consciousness, he thanks her and treats her with what can best be called kindness. That is certainly different from what we have seen from other Shardbearers and it could be enough to change Maya's emotional response to him. That is consistent with what the Stormfather told Dalinar about Oathbringer, only to a greater extent because Adolin has developed a more personal relationship with his blade. Having a positive emotional response to Adolin could give her the motivation necessary to protect him from the Fused in Shadesmar and we don't know that a normal deadeyes would be incapable of doing so, but we can assume they would be unlikely to since in general they hate humans.

As for the events that occur after perpendicularity, we know that the three realms are very close together at that point. We know that brought about a change in Taln's consciousness briefly. Taln's and Maya's situations are of course different but there are some similarities. In the case of Maya, WoB tells us that one of the things affected by the Nahel bond is ability to have sentience in the physical realm. Even after that has been lost when the bond is broken, again we are told they retain some consciousness in other realms. Given the closeness of the three realms at that point it makes sense that she may be able to have some small degree of consciousness in the physical realm. Or really for all intents and purposes they are not in the physical realm at that point, they are in a combination of the three. Adolin is able to sense some emotion from her and a word, her name he assumes, comes into his mind. That is a fairly small degree of consciousness being expressed and it seems plausible that the combination of Maya's positive feelings towards Adolin and the closeness of the realms would give her the desire and the ability to express what she does. I do believe the situation with Maya is unique because of the emotional relationship she has to Adolin, which is why we might not see other dead Shardblades choosing to do something similar. Though honestly which other viewpoint character could we have seen that from anyway? I believe the closeness of the realms also could explain her coming in 7 heartbeats. Perhaps there is even some choice involved on her part, knowing that Adolin needs her desperately at that point. That is speculative but either way I believe consistent with what we have seen so far: that Maya has a unique emotional response to Adolin and the realms are nearly one at that time. 

Assumption #2: Even if we assume Maya actually has to have healed to do all of the above, we don't know for sure that a Nahel bond would be required and we are actually told that just the normal process of speaking Oaths is not sufficient on its own. WoB states that reviving a deadeye spren is harder than just speaking Oaths and several other WoBs tell us that in most cases it would require the one who broke the Oath in the first place to do it. Adolin is not the one who broke the Oath and he has not made any Oaths yet himself so it is highly speculative to assume that a Nahel bond is already in the process of forming. Even if a Nahel bond is forming, WoB tells us it requires more than that (what exactly he does not say). WoB is soft canon to begin with but it is the majority of what we have to go on in this case. Beyond that we only know from the text that the normal progression of a Nahel bond involves Oaths. So any potential Nahel bond between Maya and Adolin could only be in its very earliest stages unless it follows a path we have never seen before. 

Personally I don't accept Assumption #1, I think it is possible for the unusual behavior to be explained without healing, so Assumption #2 is kind of moot. I don't have an alternative explanation for what has healed Maya because I think it more likely that she hasn't healed at this point. Any theory as to what would heal her is highly speculative anyway because we only know from WoB that it is harder than just saying Oaths (the normal progression of forming a Nahel bond). 

Anyway, I don't expect any of my explanations to change anyone's minds here, but I did want to try to put it all together since Jofwu asked. 

 

[insert_anagram_here]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

Why calling me rude for pointing it out?

First of all, please do not misunderstand me, I did not call you rude, I was merely trying to justify myself for not addressing all points replied after my post since I think they are opinionated and on the contrary I didn't want to be rude on multiple occasions by stating " this and this and this are plain opinions". There is no reason to do this, on the contrary I was trying not to be rude.

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

We have a WoB which states Adolin talking to Maya is significant

If we are thinking about the same WoB it's not directly significant to Maya's revival, but significant to Adolin's character in general. It could be of a significance to show that Adolin is as close to a soldier as he can possibly be, by assuming he learns his weapon's name and talking to it during battle, as a lot of soldiers are known to do as coping mechanism.

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

she brushed his mind

This isn't exactly physical though, is it? At least I consider it cognitive, so okay I guess it's a matter of opinion again, I guess.

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

Your argument is the equivalent of saying nothing happened, it would have happened in between any dead-eye and any bearer: all dead-eyes have the same capacity.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. We do not have enough evidence to know it isn't.

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

You do not know the perpendicularity is having any effect, but we do know Adolin's behavior is having one. This is confirmed by WoB.

I do not know which WoB you are referring to, but we do know that Perpendicularity is a junction between the Physical Realm and Cognitive Realm, so I don't understand this statement.

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

Also, I find it a rather moot point to write an arc with Adolin having an interaction with Maya only to make it the by-product of the perpendicularity. On a narrative point of view, it makes literally no sense because the greater majority of readers aren't even going to think both events are related because there is nothing in the textual which suggest they are.

16 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I agree that on the narrative level it doesn't make sense to set up something like this and then have it amount to nothing significant in the long run.

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

True enough, but then again, he did mess up with the Sadeas arc in ways some really find unsatisfying.... Who knows what Brandon finds interesting to read? If he messes this arc up, it wouldn't be the first time he messes up an arc.

It's not a mess, it's a narrative technique called red herring. The author wants the reader to think something is happening, only to turn the result over on itself.

I'm not claiming this is necessarily what's happening here, but it could be and we will not know unless we RAFO. We do not have enough evidence to know it's either way.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[CrazyRioter]

I think this is the WoB people have been referring to.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In Stormlight Archives before the full disadvantaged duel, there's foreshadowing of Shardblades being spren and Adolin talking to his Blade, tradition. But also, Adolin says, "Oh I forgot my mom's lucky necklace," and I don't think there's ever a reference to that again. Do we see something come back up about that necklace?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The necklace is just pure superstition on his part, it's not seeding something in. I have to sometimes make certain things not relevant, otherwise everything is relevant. So the chicken and the necklace mean nothing, but obviously the talking to the sword is a tradition has a meaning, and it comes into play in Oathbringer.

source

So yes, I think this WoB implies that what happened in OB was directly related to the way Adolin had behaved previously with regard to the sword.

Edited March 10, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[GarrethGrey]

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

We have a WoB which states Adolin talking to Maya is significant. This isn't an opinion, but a fact.

True, but does that WoB state how its significant? Does it imply Adolin is going to revive his blade and bond it? No, it doesn't, just says its significant. Maybe its significant because it allowed Maya to speak her name during the perpendicularity. And thats it, nothing more.

 

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

You do not know the perpendicularity is having any effect, but we do know Adolin's behavior is having one. This is confirmed by WoB. Also, I find it a rather moot point to write an arc with Adolin having an interaction with Maya only to make it the by-product of the perpendicularity. On a narrative point of view, it makes literally no sense because the greater majority of readers aren't even going to think both events are related because there is nothing in the textual which suggest they are.

And you don't know that its not having any effect. Again we don't know what effect Adolins behavior is having, I would find it incredibly poor writing (and "make no sense" as you put it) to have the entire Recreance turned onto its head because one guy talks to his blade. Having the perpendicularity be at least partly responsible for what happened makes far more sense than just "Oh Adolin talks to his blade, therefore he's going to revive it and become a Radiant." Sometimes the text doesn't have to bash you over the head with whats going on, sometimes readers, have to really dig into the text to suss little details out.

Edit: After having seen the WoB in question (thanks @CrazyRioter) it doesn't even say 'significant', it just says it comes into play. Thats pretty ambiguous as to how important it will actually be.

Edited March 10, 2018 by GarrethGrey
Edit

[Calderis]

@SLNC the difference in my mind between what we see with Taln and Maya is that with Taln, the Cognitive Damage is a result of torture that has left his Spiritual Aspect "cracked" but intact.

With Maya, the Cognitive Damage is a Direct result of the Spiritual damage that has been done. Bringing the Realms closer together does nothing to fix the problem, because there's no information there in the Spiritual template to allow the temporary fix. 

In one case by bringing the Spiritual Aspect, the ideal of who Taln is, to greater prominence, the Cognitive issues are allowed to be diminished due to a more complete effect of the true idealized self on the physical manifestation of who he is. 

In the other, the Spiritual Aspect is the cause of the problem, so bringing it to greater prominence does nothing to alleviate the issue. 

The alternative, in which the perpendicularity is the cause of Maya's actions, requires a restoration to the Spiritual Hole that's been created in the Spren, which would require the perpendicularity to actual be enacting a healing, which means that Taln should not have reverted, and we should have seen perpendicularities enacting healing abilities at other points in the Cosmere, which is not the case.

So having explained my reasoning here, again I have to ask anyone who is trying to say that Maya is healing by a means other than a Nahel bond, or that she is not healing at all but merely made more whole in the same manner as Taln... How? Because the evidence does not point in that direction. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Calderis

[BraidedRose]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So having explained my reasoning here, again I have to ask at anyone who is trying to say that Maya is healing by a means other than a Nahel bond, or that she is not healing at all but merely made more whole in the same manner as Taln... How? Because the evidence does not point in that direction. 

I went into more detail in my last post, but to address this a little more specifically, I don’t think Maya is healing by some other means. I think the most likely explanation is that the small amount of consciousness that she retains as a deadeye is able to be expressed when the three realms are nearly one, and that she chooses to express herself to Adolin because she has developed a positive emotional response to him due to the way he treats her. As previously explained, this seems to be consistent with the WoB that tells us that deadeyes retain some consciousness and the Stormfather’s explanation to Dalinar that Oathbringer remembers him and hates him less than others (which shows that the consciousness they retain includes memory and emotion). All of that leads me to guess that it may not be necessary for Maya to have healed at this point, since there is another explanation I find plausible. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

the difference in my mind between what we see with Taln and Maya is that with Taln, the Cognitive Damage is a result of torture that has left his Spiritual Aspect "cracked" but intact.

With Maya, the Cognitive Damage is a Direct result of the Spiritual damage that has been done. Bring the Realms closer together does nothing to fix the problem, because there's no information there in the Spiritual template to allow the temporary fix. 

So, the damage done to Taln's Spiritual Aspect is reflected in his Cognitive damage and the damage done to Maya's Spiritual Aspect is reflected in her Cognitive damage? Isn't that the same? The only difference I see is the amount of damage done (part ripped out vs. cracked).

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In one case by bringing the spiritual aspect, the ideal of who Taln is, to greater prominence, the Cognitive issues are allowed to be diminished due to a more complete effect of the true idealized self on the physical manifestation of who he is. 

I still don't get why the same couldn't be happening to Maya, just in a less complete manner, since her current "ideal self" in the Spiritual Realm is less complete than Taln's? What I'm getting from your explanation here is that the perpendicularity kinda "overrides" the Cognitive damage for the time being and brings out the ideal self of Taln, which is represented by his currently cracked Spiritual Aspect. If it just overrides it, why should it be a problem, that Maya's ideal self is more damaged? That higher amount damage seems to be reflected in her very limited ability to communicate.

I'm genuinely not understanding the logic here. I get your healing template idea, but at the same time you say, that this isn't even applied during the perpendicularity? And the perpendicularity rather acts as an override by temporarily bridging the gap left by the Cognitive damage between the Physical Realm and Spiritual Realm? Why shouldn't that be possible for Maya, too? It is not like her Spiritual Aspect is completely gone, but just partially. A lot more than Taln's, true, but she is also a lot more primitive in her communicative abilities.

Edited March 10, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

The difference is that in Taln's case the entire spiritual aspect is present. The Cognitive Damage effects his mind, but the Spiritual "cracks" will be no different then we see in a Radiant or allomancer, or anyone else who functions fine. 

In the Spren they have a chunk of their spiritual aspect missing. The Cognitive Damage they have received isn't a result of trauma, it's a result of having no Spiritual information to manifest in the the Cognitive. 

The Cosmere functions through the Spiritual flowing outward through the Cognitive to the physical. When there is no Spiritual information present it can't manifest in either of the other realms. Which is why I say that the Cognitive Damage in the deadeyes is a result of spiritual damage, whereas with Taln, his Cognitive is the thing that has been damaged, but his Spiritual Aspect is still intact. 

Look at it this way. If you have a vase that is cracked, but still intact enough to hold water, it's functional. That's Taln's spiritweb. Even if his Cognitive is messed up, the spiritual works when it's strengthened through the perpendicularity. 

The damage in the Spren though originates in the Spiritual Realm. There's a massive hole in the vase. Bringing that information forward doesn't help because the information just isn't there.

If the Spren weren't living investiture they wouldn't be alive at all in their state. The only other places in the Cosmere we've seen holes ripped into somethings spiritweb is through Hemalurgy, which is almost universally fatal.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

Alright, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

One question still stands though, what do you think is filling the blanks in Maya's Spiritual aspect? A reverse Nahel bond, hence Adolin? Do we even have evidence of the possibility of that? The Nahel bond consists out of the spren's investiture - them being living investiture - flowing into the Radiant's Spiritual aspect, which is not the same as Adolin's spiritweb filling in the blanks, which would be different information altogether being grafted into the spren's Spiritual aspect - Hemalurgy-like. The bonding process can't just be flipped around.

Or could it indeed be that the extent of retained consciousness includes primitive speech and sighing (like @BraidedRose suggested) and she's just never done it before, having it done now because of some connection between her and Adolin having been formed. (For the record, I never even denied that.) Because, let us be honest, Adolin talking to Maya is a happy coincidence, but not a particularly monumental task and Brandon said, that it would be difficult.

Edited March 10, 2018 by SLNC