[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Jofwu]

Adolin as a Willshaper based on that one WoR epigraph was a theory I came up with on my own and held to pretty strongly.

But I think Oathbringer left me feeling that spren have a LOT of leeway for who they can bond. I mean, it's not like there are RULES that they have to bond someone they mesh really well with, right? It seems to me that certain people attract certain nahel spren, but there's nothing to say they can't make exceptions. Venli is the biggest example of this. I have to totally disagree with you @Calderis. We know SO little about the Willshapers of course, but that one epigraph we have describes Eshonai (in my opinion) FAR better than it describes Venli. I tend to think Venli is not an ideal candidate for Timbre... But they're bonding anyways, for one reason or another.

I still don't see Adolin as an "ideal" Edgedancer (based on my assumptions of what that order looked like), but it works well enough for me to say it makes sense. And even if it didn't work at all for me, I suppose Maya could bond with him anyways if she wanted. I tend to think Adolin will be an Edgedancer (whether he fits or not) because of the WoB Calderis mentioned a while back. I think Maya is being revived, and the only basis we KNOW of for that happening is a nahel bond. So it just feels like it all works well enough.

That said, WoB isn't gospel. I absolutely think there's potential for Maya to be restored in some other way we don't know about which doesn't require a (normal) nahel bond.

[CrazyRioter]

I have to agree that Eshonai fits that one epigraph way better than Venli. Venli isn't a terrible candidate but Eshonai was better. And I still don't really feel like Adolin is Willshaper material. He's neither an explorer or a scholar and seems to become uncomfortable in situations that are unfamiliar. His reaction to ending up in Shadesmar typifies that.

[Calderis]

@Jofwu I totally get that, and it's absolutely my opinion without evidence.

I see it this way mainly because of the "builder" thing. Eshonai ran wild (by listener standards) and explored. She made her maps... So I guess that's actually fairly equal, because she was focused on building knowledge of the world. 

Venli was envious of Eshonai for those very reasons though. She was held behind to play the dutiful daughter, and wanted to be doing the things that Eshonai was... So her curiosity and need for novelty were channeled into the search for new... And unfortunately for the listeners, forbidden, knowledge. 

I think they were actually very very similar. Venli turned dark though, because she was bitter and resentful of the sister who was allowed to do all the things that responsibility never allowed of her. 

[maxal]

15 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

But I'm curious how would you describe "the act of refusing to be king" as? It's certainly does not denote a reliable person. He obviously knew he was in line in the throne beforehand, because from his own POV in book, it's the first thing he thinks about when he realizes that Elhokar is dead. I think it's a legit argument to call it capricious actually. And I'm sure Dalinar finds frustrating that his favourite son is abdicating the throne.

I disagree. Adolin not wanting to be king has nothing to do with him being capricious nor unreliable. It has everything to do with him not thinking he would do a good job of it. Sure, he does not want it, but he does not think he can do it either. Not everyone which refuse a promotion is unreliable nor capricious. Vivenna made it rather clear: allowing someone better than herself to rule was the best decision she could have ever made. The same is true for Adolin: he allowed a better candidate than himself to be the king. This is hardly capricious nor unreliable: this is downright awfully responsible.

Adolin just didn't decide he wouldn't complete the meaningless task he as given because it is more fun to wander around, as Eshonai did, he refused a gigantic responsibility he does not believe he can pull of. 

15 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And if people were so sure that he would become an Edgedancer why isn't there a WoB question "What would the Edgedancers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?" huh? Because I'm pretty sure, if we had that answer we wouldn't have this discussion right now.

Certainly, sticking a knife in an unarmed's eye isn't exactly Loving or Healing, so I'm sitting here wondering why are the Divine Attributes of Edgedancers completely ignored in here.

There is absolutely no textual evidence the Edgedancer would disagree with Adolin murdering Sadeas and since their order is about what is morally right as opposed to what is honorable, chances are they would be fine with it. It has been generally agreed, into the fandom, Honor-aligned orders wouldn't want Adolin, but Cultivation-aligned one wouldn't mind.

The divine attributes are not a finality in themselves: we saw ample evidence of this within our various Radiants. Hence, interpreting the "loving" attribute as a rule which forbade all Edgedancers to do any physical harm is, IMHO, wrong. The epigraphs have highlighted the order wasn't about pacifists nor does it shun upon violence, but I suspect they would require this violence to obey their own morality. Adolin surely believes killing Sadeas makes the world a better place, hence his sense of moral is right, it was just not very honorable nor legal. 

[Chaos]

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

I actually love the idea of Willshapers being something like engineers/tinkers/inventors, @insert_anagram_here.

In a way, inventing something is an adventure and a lot of it is just trying to find something that works. For that you have to be curious to find novelties, which you can then maybe harness in a fabrial (a machine would be our equivalent).

Actually, Venli was something like that back then. She was one researching and finding novel forms for the singers.

As for the surges, fabrials seem to be spren-powered. Maybe their Transportation surge works differently by not transporting them completely over to Shadesmar, but being able to transport willing spren over to the Physical Realm, so they can be used in fabrial engineering? 

Cohesion can be used to alter objects on a molecular level. So maybe that can be used to shape objects for use in their contraptions? Like where we would use a lathe or mill nowadays?

Maybe this needs a new thread...

I'd say this is a great topic for a new thread  

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

I think all there is to this is that she's beginning to see Adolin's good, as opposed to the prejudice against all humans that spren have. Had Dalinar not been a radiant himself, I suspect a similar thing would be happening between him and Oathbringer.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

I think all there is to this is that she's beginning to see Adolin's good, as opposed to the prejudice against all humans that spren have. Had Dalinar not been a radiant himself, I suspect a similar thing would be happening between him and Oathbringer.

The issue there, is that had Dalinar not been a Radiant, Oathbringer would never have been "alive" enough to recognize the good in him. The screaming doesn't happen unless they're touched by someone with a Nahel bond. 

For most dead blades, they aren't alive enough to think about the human their bonded too, let alone recognize the difference between the ways they act. 

[Alderant]

23 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The issue there, is that had Dalinar not been a Radiant, Oathbringer would never have been "alive" enough to recognize the good in him. The screaming doesn't happen unless they're touched by someone with a Nahel bond. 

For most dead blades, they aren't alive enough to think about the human their bonded too, let alone recognize the difference between the ways they act. 

Calderis, not sure what your point here is.

I was pretty sure that the screaming is only heard by a Radiant because their existing Nahel bond allowed them to be closer to the Cognitive realm (through their living spren) than the average shardblade-bonded Rosharan. Like, the screaming is always there, a Radiant is just able to hear it, where as a shardblade owner is not. We know from WoB and from the text that deadeyes (the shardblades) are aware of their owners (the Stormfather confirms this to Dalinar, as well as the ship owner's comment about his relative going to his owner) regardless of their Radiant-ness, and that the act of being synched to heartbeats brings a flicker of cognizance back to the spren.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but where are you drawing your conclusion from that "most dead blades" aren't alive enough, and where is your evidence that the screaming doesn't occur unless they're being touched by a Nahel bond? Because your statement runs exactly opposite to how I've always interpreted this.

[Calderis]

@Alderant in book from Relis. He was bonded to the blade when Kaladin touched it, and as such he not only heard the screams, but also what the Spren of the blade was saying (which from Kaladin's viewpoint we were not privy too).

Whenever a Radiant touches a blade their bond lends extra life to the blade, and the screams can be heard. But even in those cases, the person bonded to the blade can hear it more strongly than the Radiant themselves. If the blades are always screaming, then their bearers should hear it as well. 

Quote

Questioner

Why does the Shardbearer-- when they are dueling with Adolin and Renarin-- Why does the Shardbearer freak out when Kaladin grabs the sword? The <Shardbearer> like... He screams, and he's like, "I didn't kill you", and ran away.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Why does he do that?

Brandon Sanderson

Because when Kaladin was there, and they were touching it, they actually heard the spren that was inside of it. Right? Because when an--

Questioner

So it wasn't Syl that he heard, it was the sword.

Brandon Sanderson

It was the sword's spren... that Kaladin was touching it. When the Knight Radiant touches it-- You can see when other Knights Radiant pick up swords, they can hear the screaming.

source

I don't have time right now to look, and maybe I am remembering incorrectly. I'll dig more when I have more time. But I truly believe that for a dead blade not in contact with someone with an active Nahel bond, that the Spren is too lifeless to recognize anything going on. 

[Alderant]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Alderant in book from Relis. He was bonded to the blade when Kaladin touched it, and as such he not only heard the screams, but also what the Spren of the blade was saying (which from Kaladin's viewpoint we were not privy too).

Whenever a Radiant touches a blade their bond lends extra life to the blade, and the screams can be heard. But even in those cases, the person bonded to the blade can hear it more strongly than the Radiant themselves. If the blades are always screaming, then their bearers should hear it as well. 

I don't have time right now to look, and maybe I am remembering incorrectly. I'll dig more when I have more time. But I truly believe that for a dead blade not in contact with someone with an active Nahel bond, that the Spren is too lifeless to recognize anything going on. 

Well, look when you can. However, I will point this hole in your theory out. Maybe your research will prove me wrong or right or neither, but the biggest flaw to your argument here is your assertion that the blade is not screaming until the Radiant touches the blade. For example, we have the shadesmar scene where Adolin tries to summon Maya and she screams in response:

Quote

“Smart,” Adolin said. He put his hand to the side to summon his own Shardblade. The woman with the scratched eyes stretched her head toward him in an unnatural way, then screeched with a loud, piercing howl.

...

Adolin stumbled back, horrified, and nearly slipped into the bead ocean. He kept his balance, barely, and found himself face-to-face with the woman with scratches for eyes. She stared at him, completely emotionless, as if waiting for him to try to summon his Shardblade so she could scream again.

If Radiant proximity were all that was required, Maya should have been screaming the entire time Shallan and Kaladin are nearby. Physical touch doesn't appear to be part of it, since Maya screams without touching Adolin (assuming Adolin is a "budding" Radiant, which I do not believe he is).

Secondly, your assertion that a Radiant lends extra life to the blade does not disprove my point--if anything, it actually strengthens it, since my argument was that the Nahel bond--a presumably significantly stronger bond than a simple blade-bond--allows the Radiant to hear that scream, where as the blade holder does not. The blade bond is significantly weaker than the Nahel bond--if it were as strong, as your words imply, then the shardbearer should also theoretically have surgebinding, which they do not.

Additionally, the Stormfather himself confirms to Dalinar that the deadeyes are aware of their owners.

Finally, there is this WoB that says that dead spren still have some consciousness:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

When spren die, they kind of become part of everything, so why did, when the Knights broke their oaths, why did they stay as Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They had been bound into that form by those oaths. The oaths are broken, but it's like they’re cracked. Does that make sense? Like, there's still something holding those spren and that's what made them *inaudible* It would have been better if they had actually died, does that make sense? But they couldn't-- they're bound in that form.

Questioner (paraphrased)

But their consciousness is still, like, gone?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They still have a consciousness, some of them. To an extent.

Questioner (paraphrased)

That's why the screaming happens.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Footnote: The first part of this was transcribed from a separate recording, so it should be close to verbatim. However, the audio file has been taken down, so it cannot be verified exactly.
source

 

[CrazyRioter]

If dead blades were capable of communicating with their owners under normal circumstances, even vaguely like with what happens with Adolin and Maya, it would have been noticed. The fact that she is able to communicate with him indicates that something unusual is going on.

[Alderant]

5 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

If dead blades were capable of communicating with their owners under normal circumstances, even vaguely like with what happens with Adolin and Maya, it would have been noticed. The fact that she is able to communicate with him indicates that something unusual is going on.

Where are you drawing that conclusion from? We've had exactly two viewpoint characters who wielded shardblades, only one of which has actually been to Shadesmar to interact with their spren, and the "communication" you speak of (assuming you're referring to the name drop) happens under extremely unique and special circumstances (Honor's Perpendicularity being summoned by Dalinar). So from that aspect, you're exactly right that there is something unusual going on, but nothing explicitly says that Adolin is the cause.

[Calderis]

56 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Well, look when you can. However, I will point this hole in your theory out. Maybe your research will prove me wrong or right or neither, but the biggest flaw to your argument here is your assertion that the blade is not screaming until the Radiant touches the blade. For example, we have the shadesmar scene where Adolin tries to summon Maya and she screams in response:

Considering that Adolin is the point of contention in this thread, don't think these quotes from the Shadesmar sequence are going to have an effect on either side, as I don't think that would have happened that way if it were a different deadeye. 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

If Radiant proximity were all that was required, Maya should have been screaming the entire time Shallan and Kaladin are nearby. Physical touch doesn't appear to be part of it, since Maya screams without touching Adolin (assuming Adolin is a "budding" Radiant, which I do not believe he is).

I didn't say proximity. I said physical contact with a Radiant. The bonds of the other Radiants present wouldn't matter here. Furthermore, blades don't appear to be summon able in the Cognitive Realm, so the pain and screaming began because Adolin was inadvertently trying to force Maya to do something that was physically impossible in that place. 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Secondly, your assertion that a Radiant lends extra life to the blade does not disprove my point--if anything, it actually strengthens it, since my argument was that the Nahel bond--a presumably significantly stronger bond than a simple blade-bond--allows the Radiant to hear that scream, where as the blade holder does not. The blade bond is significantly weaker than the Nahel bond--if it were as strong, as your words imply, then the shardbearer should also theoretically have surgebinding, which they do not.

You misunderstand me. The Nahel bond is most definitely a stronger bond. It's not to the dead blade though. The Shardbearer has a direct bond to the blade in question, which is a stronger bond to that blade. 

So in the instance of Relis Ruthar, Kaladin's touch brought the blade further to life and the screaming started. Kaladin was able to hear indistinguishable screaming, but through his direct bond to the blade, Relis heard the words that the dead blade was saying. The moment that the screaming started it was heard and understood. 

I'm at work and my break is over. I'll try and do that digging once I'm off. 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Where are you drawing that conclusion from? We've had exactly two viewpoint characters who wielded shardblades, only one of which has actually been to Shadesmar to interact with their spren, and the "communication" you speak of (assuming you're referring to the name drop) happens under extremely unique and special circumstances (Honor's Perpendicularity being summoned by Dalinar). So from that aspect, you're exactly right that there is something unusual going on, but nothing explicitly says that Adolin is the cause.

I do not have the time for a longer response, but I thought this WoB was interesting:

 

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In Stormlight Archives before the full disadvantaged duel, there's foreshadowing of Shardblades being spren and Adolin talking to his Blade, tradition. But also, Adolin says, "Oh I forgot my mom's lucky necklace," and I don't think there's ever a reference to that again. Do we see something come back up about that necklace?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The necklace is just pure superstition on his part, it's not seeding something in. I have to sometimes make certain things not relevant, otherwise everything is relevant. So the chicken and the necklace mean nothing, but obviously the talking to the sword is a tradition has a meaning, and it comes into play in Oathbringer.

 

 

Brandon does state Adolin talking to his Blade is significant and does come into play within Oathbringer. I thus believe we cannot ignore it and state Adolin is not the cause of Maya's behavior. This WoB (and also the narrative, IMHO) seriously hints towards it being the case.

[Alderant]

12 minutes ago, maxal said:

I do not have the time for a longer response, but I thought this WoB was interesting:

 

 

Brandon does state Adolin talking to his Blade is significant and does come into play within Oathbringer. I thus believe we cannot ignore it and state Adolin is not the cause of Maya's behavior. This WoB (and also the narrative, IMHO) seriously hints towards it being the case.

I’ve never stated that Adolin didn’t have a part to play in what’s going on with Maya. In fact, I’ve stated the opposite—that perhaps Adolin’s behavior toward his blade has influenced her to hate Adolin less and therefore made the scenario that occurs during the perpendicularity possible. I just am reticent to ascribe Adolin as the sole cause, especially since there is an effective Cosmere singularity occuring at the same time. 

@Calderis, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. However, I would like you to consider and look for evidence that states that the blade is not screaming by being summoned, because textual evidence appears, to me at least, to point otherwise. 

[maxal]

Just now, Alderant said:

I’ve never stated that Adolin didn’t have a part to play in what’s going on with Maya. In fact, I’ve stated the opposite—that perhaps Adolin’s behavior toward his blade has influenced her to hate Adolin less and therefore made the scenario that occurs during the perpendicularity possible. I just am reticent to ascribe Adolin as the sole cause, especially since there is an effective Cosmere singularity occuring at the same time. 

@Calderis, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. However, I would like you to consider and look for evidence that states that the blade is not screaming by being summoned, because textual evidence appears, to me at least, to point otherwise. 

Well, you did say: "nothing explicitly says that Adolin is the cause" which is pretty much equivalent to stating Adolin potentially had no hands into what happens. This WoB tells us he does have a hand in the outcome as him talking to Maya is significant and a plot point. If Adolin had nothing to do with the events, if they were solely triggered by the perpendicularity, then him talking to Maya would not be significant. It would be trivial and meaningless, just like him eating chicken. Brandon just told us this isn't the case.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

Well, you did say: "nothing explicitly says that Adolin is the cause" which is pretty much equivalent to stating Adolin potentially had no hands into what happens. This WoB tells us he does have a hand in the outcome as him talking to Maya is significant and a plot point. If Adolin had nothing to do with the events, if they were solely triggered by the perpendicularity, then him talking to Maya would not be significant. It would be trivial and meaningless, just like him eating chicken. Brandon just told us this isn't the case.

I agree on that point. And there is some significance, but I will amend that statement to say nothing explicitly states that Adolin is the sole cause, as has been the popularly expressed opinion. 

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I agree on that point. And there is some significance, but I will amend that statement to say nothing explicitly states that Adolin is the sole cause, as has been the popularly expressed opinion. 

This is something I can agree with 

[Dreamstorm]

I'm of the opinion that Adolin is doing something "special" with Maya, but this conviction comes from a narrative perspective.  I think Adolin is in for a rough next book - including the end of his marriage (of which he may be the primary cause) and repercussions from the Sadeas killing in the form of Dalinar's reaction and also Adolin's internal issues with his own reaction (I find the interaction between the WoBs which say some people would find the killing very, very wrong and the fact Adolin's mother gave him his early sense of morality to be interesting - there is no way Evi would be OK with how Adolin killed Sadeas.)  I'm not trying to debate the above points, just explaining my reasoning why I feel like Adolin will need something and a special relationship with Maya gives him that something.  I'm not sure it'll be a Nahel bond (as I also don't think Adolin is important enough a character to do something which is characterized as being unprecedented and nearly impossible - it would just take too much page time to satisfactorily develop that), but I can see something significant.  One idea I have is that dead shardblades have properties which were formerly unknown, and Adolin's experiences with Maya provide a way to investigate that.  I could even imagine that Renarin (being interested in such things) and Adolin could investigate this together.

Contrary to my conclusion based on the literary aspects of the storyline, I do find that there are easy ways to explain what happened with Maya that fit into what we know about deadeyes/dead shardblades and the situations at hand, and thus conclude nothing is going on at all.

• Maya attacking Fused in Shadesmar: We know (from Ico and Maya's actions in Shadesmar prior to her attack) that all deadeyes are capable of enough sentience to follow around their holder.  So, we know deadeyes are capable of movement and deciding where to move.  Attacking the Fused was just Maya deciding where to move and moving.  This is no different conceptually then the fact Maya followed Adolin around Shadesmar, just an extension of that principle.  It may definitely show a liking for Adolin, but it is not a different principle than action of which we know all deadeyes are capable.  Also, given no dead shardblade wielder (that we know of) has traveled to Shadesmare, for all we know, this reaction could be typical of a deadeye when their wielder is in mortal danger.
• Maya telling Adolin her name/brushing Adolin's mind with her "thoughts": As other have mentioned, the perpendicularity affected a number of characters.  Specifically we have Taln gaining lucidity for a brief moment and Jasnah noting to Ivory that she has enhanced soulcasting ability due to the closeness of all three realms.  As others have mentioned, deadeyes are capable of sound (whether they scream when only Radiants touch them or not, everyone can agree they do produce sound), so sound production plus compression of realms seems like a likely situation for speaking a name.  Maya, like Taln, regained some of her Identity.
• Maya summoned as a shardblade in 7 seconds: This one is addressed in this recent WoB.  (I copied the text below.)  Maya is physically closer to Adolin either because she is closer in Shademar or because the cognitive realm is closer due to the perpendicularity (either works, especially since Brandon explicitly mentions this difference in summoning timing may be happening a lot, but not noticed by the wielder.)

Again, I think we will see something come of this, but I also think it would be easy to conclude nothing significant will come of it, especially if one has a different take on Adolin's potential arc and narrative purpose going forward.  (For instance, one could conclude Adolin will think something special is happening, and then be crushed when nothing comes of it.)  There certainly seems to be no reason to conclude with certainty an "awakening" or "revival" is happening, given how easy it is to provide alternate explanations for the instances which lead to that conclusion.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is there any effect on a Shardblade if the deadeye is really far away from where the Blade is?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Define really.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The one that's trapped on the ship. Let's say they're taking him to the far side of Shadesmar, but the dude that owns that Blade lives in <inaudible>.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

We will deal with that in the books. There is an effect, but that's not enough of an effect.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Considering no one says that their Shardblade is acting weird in two and a half thousand years.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That happens all the time in Shadesmar. If you were able to get it off the planet, it would have an effect.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If you as the owner of the Shardblade were offworld and you tried to summon it, that would be the effect?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Either way. But you can't take spren off-world. I mean, you can, but you can't really. Really all that I have in the notes for it to do right now, is to add slightly more time. So you're like, "That's weird that felt like not ten heartbeats, it felt like twelve."

But it's like, you're on another planet, then it's suddenly speed of light type stuff. So suddenly it's like, "This is taking three years instead. That's a pretty big deal!"

So I've got a few weird speed of light things mixed into the cosmere, and that's one of them.

 

[CrazyRioter]

I don't think the deadeyes usually decide where to move, they are just drawn towards where their corpse is in the physical realm in the same manner that the beads are drawn back to the location of the physical object if left unattended.

It's worth noting that the several other times he summons her in that battle it's normal, it's only the one time he desperately needs her to and asks her to that she comes faster.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think the deadeyes usually decide where to move, they are just drawn towards where their corpse is in the physical realm in the same manner that the beads are drawn back to the location of the physical object if left unattended.

It's worth noting that the several other times he summons her in that battle it's normal, it's only the one time he desperately needs her to and asks her to that she comes faster.

Agreed these could be explanations which are plausible and would make what Adolin is doing special.  (I actually believe they do mean something myself.)  I'm just saying there are also ways to explain what happened where it doesn't mean much of anything.

On the blade timing, he draws Maya three times in TC.  The first time he's not panicked at all, the second time it's mildly urgent, and the third he's desperate.  It's the third where he's really focusing on the heartbeat timing.  Brandon said in that WoB that a wielder wouldn't usually notice the difference because they expect it to be 10 heartbeats, so we know slight differences in time have been happening before but just not noticed, so that could account for Adolin thinking it was ten heartbeats the first two times.  I also find it interesting that Brandon just told us (that WoB is from last weekend) that proximity can make a difference in the timing of blade summoning, when he showed a timing discrepancy in the latest book.  Maybe that's nothing, maybe he's trying to misdirect, maybe he's trying to point people to an alternate explanation besides blade revival.  I'm pretty sure we'll find out in the next book though!  (Though if we take the Sadeas storyline as any indicator, what is happening could have an effect in general but nothing much could happen with respect to Adolin himself.)

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[CrazyRioter]

It's interesting to note that both times the text explicitly notes the ten heartbeats. This implies he was paying attention, and also that the readers are supposed to be paying attention.

[Dreamstorm]

26 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

It's interesting to note that both times the text explicitly notes the ten heartbeats. This implies he was paying attention, and also that the readers are supposed to be paying attention.

I totally agree with this from a literary analysis perspective.  I've been challenged strenuously on this board, though, that we cannot take these Brandon "hints" as necessarily meaning anything.  (I'm a Shalladin supporter, and there are a ton of hints about them which a lot of readers either say exist but only as a "fake out" or subversion tactic, or alternatively say are being read into too much and are not meant to mean anything.)  I agree that these points needs to be looked at in any literary analysis, though, especially for a writer such a Brandon who loves his foreshadowing!

Contrary to what I say above, Brandon did just confirm that in the case of Evi's necklace nothing is being foreshadowed, so not everything means something.  (The WoB was quoted earlier in this thread and can be found here.) 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Dreamstorm

[CrazyRioter]

Shipping is a highly subjective thing. I think this is much less subjective.

Also Brandon is very careful and meticulous with his magic systems, if he feels the need to point out something related to the magic that's very significant.

[Calderis]

Alright. I've dug through damnation near every Wob in Arcanum that contains the word Shardblade. 

I've found nothing that pertains to the deadeyes level of awareness or ability to feel pain that hasn't already come up in this thread. So again it looks like a point that we'll be content disagreeing with each other here. 

Before I address points that I overlooked through lack of time earlier, there is a WoB pertaining to Adolin and the blade that I hadn't seen before that I don't think lends any more weight in either direction. 

Quote

twixttwists

I couldn't help note that Adolin seems to have a somewhat special bond with his Shardblade. And there have been hints about reawakening the dead spren ( mostly characters speculating it wouldn't be possible). But what I wanted to know is if someone like Adolin could convince his Shardblade's dead spren to become a spear or shield, like Kaladin gets to with Syl. Or does a spren need sentience to anticipate its bearer's needs?

Brandon Sanderson

Adolin's shardblade is a RAFO, as I want this to play out naturally and not squelch discussion. Suffice it to say that a dead Shardblade, under normal circumstances, is locked into a single form.

source

Note Brandon basically saying keep doing what we're doing. 

Alright, the two points that I skipped over earlier due to lack of time. 

5 hours ago, Alderant said:

the Stormfather himself confirms to Dalinar that the deadeyes are aware of their owners.

I remember him speaking specifically about Oathbringer and the screaming being less because it remembered him. I don't see how that has much bearing personally, as a bond is spiritual and exists outside of time as we normally perceive it. Just as Syl was aware of Kaladin's past before she bonded him, I don't see why blade that was bonded for decades wouldn't be aware on a  instinctual level of the person it was bonded to when it is given cognizance. 

As to the WoB, I'll repost for completeness sake. 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

When spren die, they kind of become part of everything, so why did, when the Knights broke their oaths, why did they stay as Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They had been bound into that form by those oaths. The oaths are broken, but it's like they’re cracked. Does that make sense? Like, there's still something holding those spren and that's what made them *inaudible* It would have been better if they had actually died, does that make sense? But they couldn't-- they're bound in that form.

Questioner (paraphrased)

But their consciousness is still, like, gone?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They still have a consciousness, some of them. To an extent.

Questioner (paraphrased)

That's why the screaming happens.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Footnote: The first part of this was transcribed from a separate recording, so it should be close to verbatim. However, the audio file has been taken down, so it cannot be verified exactly.
source

I don't see how this conflicts with my viewpoint.

"they still have consciousness, some of them. To an extent."

So only some have consciousness, and only to an extent. And that's why the screaming happens.

This seems to imply that blades with consciousness scream, and the screaming only happens when a blade is in physical contact with a Radiant.