[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[BraidedRose]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No it doesn't. But that's because as I said, I think that at their core, Adolin and Lift are actually pretty similar. 

You’re saying that we don’t really know for sure what makes someone Edgedancer material (I agree). But it’s okay to speculate that Adolin is Edgedancer material but not okay to speculate that he isn’t? It’s okay to compare him with Lift if you think they are alike but we shouldn’t compare him to Lift if we think they are different? I’m really trying to be fair but that’s honestly what I’m understanding you to be saying, and I’m kind of at a loss for how to respond further then.

As for the Taln and Maya discussion, you aren’t saying Taln’s damage has been healed by the perpendicularity either so I’m not sure why we are assuming that Maya’s damage must have been healed by the perpendicularity (that certainly wasn’t what I was suggesting) in order for her to speak faintly in Adolin’s mind. We are kind of comparing apples to oranges with what is wrong with Taln and Maya anyway. I can’t say you’re wrong that it would work for Taln and not Maya due to the damage she has but it’s all supposition at this point. For what it’s worth I assume there is still damage to Maya whether it is the perpendicularity or a bond with Adolin (or both) that allowed her to speak to him.

42 minutes ago, maxal said:

 It usually comes down to readers not really wanting Adolin to become a Radiant and, as such, trying to find an explanation which can explain Maya without having Adolin have already form a Nahel Bond with her. I feel it is akin to trying to prove something which did happen did not happen because the outcome is unpopular. I find it very similar to how I tried to argue the Cryptic Elhokar saw in the mirrors weren't trying to bond him: I didn't want it to happen, so I refute the evidence and made up and alternate explanation which pleased me better. Turns out I was wrong, even if my alternate explanation did seem plausible enough.

However, this is one narrative element we won't know more about until next book or a good WoB on the matter.

Maybe you are right that some readers not wanting Adolin to become a Radiant is affecting their opinions the way you say happened with you and Elhokar. But a lot of your arguments could just as easily be flipped around. Perhaps those that really want to see Adolin as a Radiant (or at least something consequential) are reading too much into equivocal evidence.  We all have some bias, all we can do is try to be aware of it. But I see plenty of arguments against Adolin becoming an Edgedancer that are thoughtful and that don’t attack him in the way you are suggesting (and that’s even despite the fact that the Edgedancer theory appears to be far more popular than any alternative here). 

To be clear I got into this thread (perhaps foolishly) not because I had any intention of trying to convince people who are into the Edgedancer  theory that they are wrong. I have no interest in doing that. No, I got pulled in because I saw what seemed to me some arguments being diminished or dismissed and I wanted to add my voice in defense of dissenting opinions. I hope anyone reading this will give some thought to that, but I think I’m going to stop here because in my mind we’re at risk of derailing the thread.

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

Lopen protects, but in his own special way. This is shown after the battle, when his second oath is accepted. He's with the sick, reminding a guy who had just lost his arm that life was still worth living. It's not standing in front of someone yelling "You shall not pass!" but it's protecting in it's own special way.

Very true. This scene has proven that not all Radiants need to swear under such extreme conditions as the trailblazing PoVs, nor do they have to conform to the standard of behavior set by these characters with as much exactness as some would like. There is a lot of variety within an Order. Now look at this:

On 2.3.2018 at 9:08 AM, PhineasGage said:

Let's compare with our only know ED, Lift. Lift knowingly goes back into a palace to save Gawx even though she is being hunted by Nalan and saving Gawx will likely get her caught. She puts his safety and needs ahead of her own. I don't think we see Adolin really do this <snip> he isn't putting himself in more harm by doing so.

By this logic Lopen's Second Oath shouldn't count. After all, Kaladin swore his when in mortal danger from 2 different directions: he was charging a Parshendi shieldwall by himself and making an impossible leap over a deadly chasm. All so he could save the beleaguered Kholin army basically by his lonesome. But Lopen was completely safe!  Clearly not "enough Windrunner material" .

That's leaving aside that Adolin didn't, in fact, even swear the First Oath yet.

2 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

But it doesn't bother you when people try to argue that Adolin is Edgedancer material when we don't know what that is? 

We can evaluate his behavior in the light of what we know about Edgedancer principles and reputation.

Quote

Lift is only one data point so we shouldn't give her too much weight, not all Edgedancers will be just like her. But she provides an important set of information that Brandon has chosen to show us, so why shouldn't she be considered?

It has been pointed out from the start that Lift is unusual and that she was chosen at least in part because of her boon from the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. So, certainly, she provides us with one example and with their Oaths, but we shouldn't expect and demand that other potential members of her Order emulate her in minute detail. However, we also have information about the Edgedancers from other sources - such as in-world WoR book and Nale. I.e.:

"When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants."  –From Words of Radiance, chapter 20, page 12. " WoR, Chapter 46

'Where you blunder, they were elegant things of beauty. They could ride the thinnest rope at speed, dance across rooftops, move through a battlefield like a ribbon on the wind.' "

 

Quote

 Why not something similar then with Maya, the closeness of the planes allows some of her Spiritual damage to be bypassed?

Well, if we hear that the other 5 dead shardblades were similarly changed for the duration of the realms unity, then sure, you'd be completely right. If not, then there is something else going on with Maya, something unique to her.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Isilel

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

You’re saying that we don’t really know for sure what makes someone Edgedancer material (I agree). But it’s okay to speculate that Adolin is Edgedancer material but not okay to speculate that he isn’t? It’s okay to compare him with Lift if you think they are alike but we shouldn’t compare him to Lift if we think they are different? I’m really trying to be fair but that’s honestly what I’m understanding you to be saying, and I’m kind of at a loss for how to respond further then.

I'm saying it bothers me because of my own interpretation, as everything about this is completely subjective. I can see the other arguments, and people have every right to make them. I also have the right to argue against them by my interpretation. I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm not saying that I'm right as far as the characters are concerned. I'm saying that my own interpretation colors my judgement of the arguments. As I'm sure it does for everyone else. 

 

To the Taln and Maya difference, that's exactly my point. The argument that the perpendicularity healed Maya is flawed in my mind, because neither of them should be healed by that. 

For Taln it would temporarily alleviate the problem. 

For Maya, the same fix shouldn't have done that. It may have facilitated him being able to hear her... But her ability to speak to him at all shouldn't be present without her having already started to heal. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Jofwu]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

We can evaluate his behavior in the light of what we know about Edgedancer principles and reputation.

I think this is a misunderstanding of her complaint, and is precisely what she finds frustrating. Maxal and Calderis (I think?) were making an argument that we don't know Edgedancer principles/reputation well enough to say Adolin isn't one. But you can't make that argument and then turn around and say there's evidence he is one. Or at least, if you do that then you have to acknowledge your evidence is just as weak as the evidence pointing the other way.

Edit: To be clear, I don't think anybody here is pretending that their take on Adolin becoming an Edgedancer/Radiant is "right". We have a pile of text to work with, and different people think it points different ways. It's okay to have a particular opinion and tell someone else you think they're wrong. If you think someone's argument is faulty, it's okay to point that out. Just remember you're talking to another person and be respectful.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Jofwu

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I think this is a misunderstanding of her complaint, and is precisely what she finds frustrating. Maxal and Calderis (I think?) were making an argument that we don't know Edgedancer principles/reputation well enough to say Adolin isn't one. But you can't make that argument and then turn around and say there's evidence he is one. Or at least, if you do that then you have to acknowledge your evidence is just as weak as the evidence pointing the other way.

Absolutely. Which is why I've stated that my certainty after OB is because of what I believe to be the nature of what healing a spren would require. 

We don't know enough about Edgedancers to try and say who is or isn't one. But Maya awakening, in my opinion, shouldn't be possible without a bond. 

My interpretation of the character is as subjective as anyone else's. The process of a dead spren healing though, just as in the case of Syl and Kaladin seems to require a restoration of the Nahel bond. 

With Maya's original Radiant dead, I've yet to see an explanation for how she could be healing that address the Spiritual hole in the Spren. Adolin bonding her fits that realmatically and is the strongest argument I know of for him fitting the order.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Isilel]

12 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I think this is a misunderstanding of her complaint, and is precisely what she finds frustrating. Maxal and Calderis (I think?) were making an argument that we don't know Edgedancer principles/reputation well enough to say Adolin isn't one. But you can't make that argument and then turn around and say there's evidence he is one.

Well, sometimes it is more difficult to prove a negative than a positive. Not that we can actually _prove_ anything in this case, but we do have evidence concerning what the Edgedancers stood _for_, and what their reputation implied, but we have literally no clue about what they found inacceptable. That's just how the cookie crumbles. Certainly, quotes from WoR that I cite in my previous post suggest that Lift is, in many respects, an outlier. Her pacifism  is not characteristic of her Order.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree that in order for her to be healing there has to be a bond forming.  Based on several WoBs I believe that's the only way they can be healed (barring possibly direct intervention from a Shard).

[Vissy]

Insofar as Edgedancers' Divine Attributes go - Loving and Healing - I actually think Lift embodies them pretty well. She loves food, and she healed Nale! Or helped him on his way, at least. See, it works!  

Adolin does strike me as a very "loving" type of guy. Throughout OB we also see instances of Adolin acting according to the "Healing" attribute, for example spending time with Gallant at the stables, helping them both heal. But whereas Lift has this tough exterior, Adolin's is smooth and rounded. I think deep down they are more similar than you'd think, and would get along quite well. My only problem is that Adolin really doesn't think about the forgotten outside of his immediate circle of people all that often, whereas Lift - and Edgedancers in general, if I understand this correctly - do. In my eyes, if he is a "good Samaritan" at all (I don't think that he is), he is a shallow and hypocritical one. No, I see Adolin more as just a very good person, who nevertheless cannot often see past his own nose. So in principle I don't see any barrier for Adolin to become an Edgedancer... but so far I'm not convinced that he will, and I think he'd have to grow as a character before I'd consider that viable. I'm not 100% sure if Adolin will even make it alive into the back five books yet though so who knows .

Edited March 3, 2018 by Vissy

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

My only problem is that Adolin really doesn't think about the forgotten outside of his immediate circle of people all that often, whereas Lift - and Edgedancers in general, if I understand this correctly - do. In my eyes, if he is a "good Samaritan" at all (I don't think that he is), he is a shallow and hypocritical one. No,

I'm curious what your definition of a good Samaritan is. To me, it's just someone who stops to help someone they see in need which I believe Adolin does based on the examples others have provided.

When does Lift start remembering those outside her immediate circle? The first time we see her she is already incredibly close to swearing the second ideal. We never saw her attitude when it was just a proto-bond or just after she swore the first ideal. I think it's important to remember Adolin is nowhere near that level yet. To make a comparison that I know isn't perfect because the orders are different, he's where Kaladin was for the majority of WoK. Kaladin didn't care about protecting those outside his immediate circle until just before he swore the second oath.

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

So in principle I don't see any barrier for Adolin to become an Edgedancer... but so far I'm not convinced that he will, and I think he'd have to grow as a character before I'd consider that viable.

I think my main disagreement with what yo have said is the idea that the growth has to come before the bond is formed. The way I see it, the Nahel bond isn't about the spren finding the perfect candidate and then bonding them. It's about the spren finding someone who could maybe, possibly, eventually become the perfect candidate and bonding them, and then working towards that goal through trying to understand and live a series of ideals guiding how the perfect candidate would live. And the Skybreakers showed how hard it is. Nale was the only living one to reach that level. Adolin would have a harder time than most Radiants because he would need to swear, presumably, the first three ideals without his spren's guidance. To me he shows enough promise that he could eventually reach that point to begin the bonding process.

[Calderis]

@thegatorgirl00 I agree completely. As I said earlier in the thread, Kaladin is our exemplary Windrunner... And he's broken his bond once already. Expecting a potential candidate to live up to the Oaths of someone already advanced is a problem. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

When does Lift start remembering those outside her immediate circle? The first time we see her she is already incredibly close to swearing the second ideal. We never saw her attitude when it was just a proto-bond or just after she swore the first ideal. I think it's important to remember Adolin is nowhere near that level yet. To make a comparison that I know isn't perfect because the orders are different, he's where Kaladin was for the majority of WoK. Kaladin didn't care about protecting those outside his immediate circle until just before he swore the second oath.

Correct, we don't know how she was before her bond, but we know, that she once stopped caring about people and then felt like, that it was worse than being dead. From that we can easily infer, that even before that she cared about people, because someone has to. That is her own reasoning for it.

Thus I think, that even before her bond Lift cared a lot.

56 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I think my main disagreement with what yo have said is the idea that the growth has to come before the bond is formed. The way I see it, the Nahel bond isn't about the spren finding the perfect candidate and then bonding them. It's about the spren finding someone who could maybe, possibly, eventually become the perfect candidate and bonding them, and then working towards that goal through trying to understand and live a series of ideals guiding how the perfect candidate would live. And the Skybreakers showed how hard it is. Nale was the only living one to reach that level. Adolin would have a harder time than most Radiants because he would need to swear, presumably, the first three ideals without his spren's guidance. To me he shows enough promise that he could eventually reach that point to begin the bonding process.

Yes, there were and probably will be failed Radiants. And yes, the Skybreakers kept their recruitment going, since they were the only Order that didn't take part in the recreance, but I hardly think, that we can consider aquiring Radiancy through squireship to be the same process as a reverse Nahel bond with a deadeye revival attached to it.

See, to go back to my point I made earlier about idealism. Even squires, before they even have the chance to bond a spren, begin to believe in something. Their Radiant, they are squire to. They follow him. Yes, through this belief, there is a possibility, that they aquire a Nahel bond, because they live after their Radiant. They embrace a certain lifestyle, which makes them more susceptible to be able to speak the oaths and actually adhere to them.

With our "natural" Radiants, that happened beforehand. Kaladin always had the desire to protect and lead - even if it would have been easier to flee from his masters in time of slavery alone, he took others with him. Dalinar became honorable and a unifier, before he bonded the Stormfather. This change of heart came from within. From himself. Lift always cared about other people, because someone had to. Jasnah  believed in logic above all, before she bonded with Ivory. To Shallan I can't say too much, because much of her past is still unknown, but given her family and how broken her brothers are... I'm sure that she has been weaving and living a happy family lie long before she bonded Pattern.

My point is: All of our "natural" Radiants have been living their Ideals long before they bonded their spren. They had the capacity and will to have a strong belief in their way of living and held onto it no matter what. With Adolin, I don't see that will. All I'm seeing is a free spirit, that doesn't want to be constrained by a code. The way he thought about the Codes of War and his unwillingness to take up responsibility (the King thing) exemplify that.

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

I could agree with that reasoning if we were speaking about Adolin at the beginning if tWoK. Even by the end of that book though, he'd seen the reasoning behind the codes and begun to internalize them. 

Adolin has grown since the beginning of the books. He'll continue to do so.

The reason that I was originally against this theory was basically the same reasoning, but by the end of words of Radiance he had grown into someone who genuinely accepted the codes, and cared for the people around him. The murder of Sadeas was a murder committed in anger, yes. That anger though,  was caused by all of the lives that Sadeas had wasted. All the people that he had hurt. And by his own admission that he would continue to do the same thing. The very act that apparently condemns Adolin in many people's eyes was one committed specifically to stop a person causing harm to others. 

I didn't expect this storyline to start yet. I honestly expected it in the back half after Adolin had grown, and been exposed to Edgedancers, and started internalizing their oaths in the same way that he did the codes. But I also didn't expect Mayalaran's revival to be gradual. I thought Adolin would have to reach the third oath independently and then fully revive her that way. 

What we're seeing now though? I think Adolin is essentially a first oath Radiant with no surges. Maya's awakening means that the bond can progress normally... But Adolin won't get a benefit in my opinion until the third oath, beyond perhaps a faster summoning if that wasn't due to the perpendicularity. 

He has a ways to go yet. No arguments there. I just don't see how it can be argued that he's not on the path when Maya is changing. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Calderis

[thegatorgirl00]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I hardly think, that we can consider aquiring Radiancy through squireship to be the same process as a reverse Nahel bond with a deadeye revival attached to it.

 

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

My point is: All of our "natural" Radiants have been living their Ideals long before they bonded their spren.

Technically, Adolin isn't a "natural" Radiant, either. His is a completely unique scenario that has never been seen before in the entire Cosmere. For all we know, the bond all Shardbearers have with their Blade will mean his process has more similarity to achieving Radiancy through squireship than it will to achieving it "naturally". I'm not saying it does, I just think with the little information we know about the process, the two comparisons are just as valid.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Technically, Adolin isn't a "natural" Radiant, either. His is a completely unique scenario that has never been seen before in the entire Cosmere.

Yup. So why is everyone trying to apply the normal Nahel bond rules, when this new scenario, that we know nothing about, defies all known rules?

 

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

What we're seeing now though? I think Adolin is essentially a first oath Radiant with no surges. Maya's awakening means that the bond can progress normally... But Adolin won't get a benefit in my opinion until the third oath, beyond perhaps a faster summoning if that wasn't due to the perpendicularity. 

How can you call Adolin a first oath Radiant, when he hasn't spoken a single oath? When he doesn't even is able to Invest?

I don't deny, that something is happening to Maya, but I don't see a Nahel bond forming. There are just no indicators for it. I have no idea what is happening to Maya, but the theory of a Nahel bond forming and Adolin filling in Maya's Spiritual damage all hinges on that even being possible. And honestly, even if this is possible? Do we even know if a reverse Nahel bond will grant surges?

That is the thing, we don't know anything tangible about the process and it is so different, that we can't apply what we know. It defies all current knowledge.

Regarding Sadeas' murder: Firstly, it is a direct breach of the Codes, that Adolin apparently has embraced (I highly disagree on that). The Code of Restraint and the Code of Honor. And I actually see it as a perfect example of how Lift and Adolin differ.

Regardless of all the nice allusions to Cultivation and agriculture and removing noxious weeds. We have a few facts: Lift doesn't like hurting people. Wyndle doesn't like hurting people. Adolin enjoyed pressing the knife into Sadeas eye and into his brain (and yes, it even was described this graphically). That is the polar opposite of not wanting to hurt someone.

Edited March 4, 2018 by SLNC

[CrazyRioter]

But we've also been told (Including by Nale who is a primary source on the matter) that some Edgedancers were present on battlefields and apparently considered quite dangerous. So obviously Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists.

Lift is one Edgedancer, and spren can differ in attitudes .

[GarrethGrey]

3 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

But we've also been told (Including by Nale who is a primary source on the matter) that some Edgedancers were present on battlefields and apparently considered quite dangerous. So obviously Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists.

Lift is one Edgedancer, and spren can differ in attitudes .

Ok yes, Edgedancers could be very dangerous on the battlefield. That does not however, mean that they enjoyed killing people, let alone relishing in the cold blooded murder of someone.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

But we've also been told (Including by Nale who is a primary source on the matter) that some Edgedancers were present on battlefields and apparently considered quite dangerous. So obviously Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists.

They have been described as graceful and higly mobile on the battlefield. Nale has not been calling them "dangerous".

When we look at armies, Edgedancers fit one role like a glove. The combat medic. Their surges are perfect. Abrasion for mobility and Progression for healing. Medics are not aggressors. Medics have historically been known to be more pacifistic, than the normal soldier. On a battlefield, the forgotten are often the wounded. It fits. I'm sure, that the Edgedancers will be medics in the battles to come. Not aggressors, who enjoy killing.

Edited March 4, 2018 by SLNC

[CrazyRioter]

I note that these battlefields were not UN sanctioned battlefields with "don't shoot the medics" rules. They'd have had to be willing to fight in self-defense at the least, or risk death or wasting all their Stormlight healing themselves or dodging and not having enough left over to do the thing they were supposed to be doing.

 

[Calderis]

According to the in world Words of Radiance, the Edgedancers were not pacifists.

 

Quote

 

When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants. 

Terror at the arrival of the Edgedancers. Renowned for their deadliness. 

Lift and Wyndel may be pacifists. The order was known otherwise. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I note that these battlefields were not UN sanctioned battlefields with "don't shoot the medics" rules. They'd have had to be willing to fight in self-defense at the least, or risk death or wasting all their Stormlight healing themselves or dodging and not having enough left over to do the thing they were supposed to be doing.

 

And I don't disagree with that.

Just because they are capable and deadly, doesn't mean, that they must enjoy it.

 

[GarrethGrey]

Again, I'm not saying ED couldn't be "deadly" or not fight on the battlefield. What I am saying, is that they don't enjoy killing people, they dont want to be deadly killers. Do they have the skills to be deadly on a battlefield? Yes. Were they running around hacking and slashing their way through armies and enjoying it? No, I don't believe they were.

[CrazyRioter]

Adolin has some known anger issues, and a long history with Sadeas in particular. He snapped under provocation. He doesn't enjoy killing in that manner under more typical circumstances. He's a bit bothered after the Thaylen City battle because he's struck by killing other humans.

[Yata]

I have a controversal view about Maya's revival.

First of all, I see Adolin as an Edgedancer. I could fit him with the notions about the Edgedancer we know.

Also, the Edgedancer's Spren are for their own nature the easier to revive as the order's mantra is about caring of the others and the simple act of try to revival them fits also the order.

But, be' a potential Edgedancer is not enough for the task.

An ok Edgedancer could bond a Cultivationspren and turn into a Radiant.

A good/great Edgedancer would be Need to recover a Deadeyes and resurrect him/her.

Adolin could be' enough for the first but not enough for the latter.

 

Lastly, but this is high speculative. I sadly believe that a Radiant Spren could not be' fully recovered by someone who is not the One performing the Oathbreak.

A piece of them was ripped out (trapped in the Oathbreaker's soul) and also if a new bond will mitigate the damage, the Lost part will not regrowth (pun intended).

I see the the "revived Spren" as a middle status between Deadeyes and healthy Spren, probably they could gave to the partener something more than what a Shardbearer gains (Faster summon and maybe the ability to shapeshift) but nothing close to Radiancy

 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Yata

[Calderis]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I can't reconcile the in world Words of Radiance portrayal of Simol being terrified at the arrival of the Edgedancers "as is common in such cases" with their portrayal as pacifists. 

A group of pacifists could cover the consternation half of what is presented in that quote. They do not inspire terror though. 

[GarrethGrey]

@Calderis Again (this is the third time I've said this), I'm not saying they are complete pacifists. Its like you're purposefully ignoring what I'm saying. They can be deadly, they can be dangerous, that does not mean that they are running around wreaking havoc and killing everything in sight. They most certainly do not enjoy hurting and killing people.