The Night Watcher

[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

285 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

. I'll try to either come back and discuss more, or edit this post if the thread hasn't moved on. 

I'll come back later with commentaries if I manage to find time in between baking my son's birthday cake and the insanity which is called work :blink:

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Alright. Eaten, coffee'd, and feeling a bit better mentally. 

Maya was not pulled through the perpendicularity. Adolin was, but she stayed behind until she was summoned normally. 

I would be more inclined to believe that Mayalaran's voice and her quick summoning were a factor of the perpendicularity, but the first at least would still require cognition returning to the Spren. 

And finally, why would killing, even murder, bar anyone from bonding a spren aligned with Cultivation? Cultivation is not some kindly green hippy nature God. She's the embodiment of all aspects of cultivation (small c) and that is storming ruthless. 

Natural growth is not cultivated. A park is cultivated. A garden is cultivated. In a cultivated environment, you keep the things that you have designed, and you eliminate anything that is not necessary to the plan. 

Sadeas was particularly noxious weed. 

Edited by Calderis
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Cultivation flat out said that she controls the thorns as well. The Edgedancers were considered deadly on the battlefield according to one of the epigraphs. Some may have been peaceful healers but others could be fighters.

Edited by CrazyRioter
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I think we can all agree Adolin is perfect and amazing :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we can all agree Adolin is perfect and amazing :ph34r:

Not by a long shot. 

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He's amazing, but not perfect. Perfect characters are boring.

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1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think we can all agree Adolin is perfect and amazing :ph34r:

Yes :ph34r:

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CrazyRioter is right, perfect characters are boring, that's why superman needed Lois Lane or Wonder Woman needed Captain Kirk

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I am going to attempt at answering some of the points brought forward within this discussion. This hardly is the first time readers refute the Edgedancer theory on the basis they cannot picture him as one. It has been one of my major regrets in reading OB, how Brandon did not spend the time needed to develop this side of Adolin's character. 

I find this discussion has several angles, but the major on being listed, at least on this thread, is how none of Adolin's behaviors appear to be "enough" for an Edgedancer. Of course, readers will always compare him to Lift and since Adolin never got the opportunity to save Gawx while being hunted by Nale, nothing he does ever comes across as enough.

I have always find this argument dubious...

Adolin saves a prostitute, but it isn't enough because his life wasn't in danger. This argument does not work out for me because the author chose to show us this scene, he chose to have Adolin rescue this poor girl and if the stakes weren't very high for himself, he still stopped in his tracks and tried to do something about it. Some are arguing it isn't enough, he should have sheltered her, tried to give her a better life, protest against the existence of prostitution or any other actions more than "just saving and escorting her to another warcamp".

How come him not doing more is what makes some readers find him unsuitable? I find those sentient comes from a misunderstanding of whom the Edgedancers really were... They weren't out there to change the world, but they were benevolent people always ready to help whoever is in need. 

This WoB, right here explains it. Edgedancer aren't "social workers", but "Good Samaritans". They help, but they do not throw reforms.

Quote

Leinton (paraphrased)

Were the Edgedancers sort of like social workers?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He laughed at this question, and said that was sort of accurate, but they were more like good Samaritans than social workers.

Adolin later saves a boy from being crushed by the thunderclast. He goes back into a crumbling house to rescue a child and, yes, he does it at the risk of his own life. I find this one example has much in common with Lift as, here too, Adolin chose to help someone instead of saving himself.

But this too is not enough... Why isn't it enough? Are we seeing Lift do more? Not particularly. Sure, there was Gawx, but again, Adolin never was into the situation she was in, I find it odd to state he cannot fit into a given order because life has not thrown him a dire enough situation to make act in ways which perfectly matches the other known member of said order. Either way, let's refer to the WoB again: Edgedancers are about helping and Adolin is sure always trying to help. In Shadesmar, he takes care of Kaladin despite himself being dead tired, injured, scared, grieving for his cousin and stressed over the idea of becoming king. Not once does he allow what he feels drive his actions, but he allows how other feels to drive his.

 

I am going to cut it short because it is late and I need to go to bed. I however feel Adolin isn't being given a fair chance here. He did everything he could for others and while it wasn't perfect, it still marks him as someone being able to grow into those oaths, even if he is not there yet.

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I jus don't understand. Sure, Adolin is a pretty great guy, especially for being a high ranking lighteyes. That does not however, make him ED material. Kaladin was just about to step in with the prostitute, but Adolin beat him to it, does that make Kal a potential ED too? Shallan was certainly trying to help people in Kholinar, does that make her a potential ED? Like, I get it, Adolin is an awesome guy, but let's not get carried away with praising him for every little thing he does. I mean, he murdered somebody in a fit of rage, and enjoyed it, thats not really something that embodies being an ED. 

I also don't see why the perpendicularity is being tossed aside as being the reason for her to be able to not only speak her name to him, but appear quicker than normal. It makes quite alot of sense, especially since they were so close to eachother in Shadesmar. I'm not saying nothing is happening with Maya (obviously something is), but thinking that this is a sure thing and that Adolin will revive her and become an ED just seems...a little much at this point.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Natural growth is not cultivated. A park is cultivated. A garden is cultivated. In a cultivated environment, you keep the things that you have designed, and you eliminate anything that is not necessary to the plan. 

Sadeas was particularly noxious weed. 

I'm having an incredibly hard time figuring out if you're being serious or not. So, its ok to murder people now, as long as they're seen as a "weed"?

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What is "Edgedancer material." I've seen it thrown around in past threads and this one, but I would like an explanation here, because as far as I've seen, we don't have nearly as clear a vision of them as we do of many of the Orders. 

4 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

but thinking that this is a sure thing and that Adolin will revive her and become an ED just seems...a little much at this point.

The reason that I think it's a sure thing is because of this WoB. 

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

source

The Nahel bond itself is what was ripped out of the deadeyes being. In order for them to be reviving at all, to show cognition beyond (as Ico put it) "wandering off to find their wielder," then a Nahel bond must be forming. Maya's healing, in and of itself, shows that Adolin is bonding with her. 

8 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

I'm having an incredibly hard time figuring out if you're being serious or not. So, its ok to murder people now, as long as they're seen as a "weed"?

I said nothing about it being "OK." Nothing about morals. I said that it should not bar anyone from bonding a spren aligned with Cultivation in itself. No shard is good or evil, and neither are the Spren. 

Quote

Blightsong

Can honorspren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil despite their relationship to Tanavast or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, because I don't call the Shards good and evil. There are no good and evil Shards in my opinion, like and so, what's evil and what's not evil- you can totally have spren that are of Honor that you would consider evil. They have free will; they are much more strictly limited in that free will than we are, because of their nature as spren. It's very hard for most spren to ever break an oath or to lie. That's just like- as manifestations of laws of nature makes it very hard for that to happen, but they can be cruel.

source

The Radiants themselves are not required to be good. They're only required to keep their oaths. 

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First of all, it has been established that a person could fit in more than Order, as qualities overlap, to a degree. So, yes, I, for one, can certainly imagine circumstances that would have led to Kaladin becoming an Edgedancer instead of a Windrunner. It doesn't have to be a perfect fit either, nor do members of the same Order express the associated Divine attributes in the same way. I mean, look at Kaladin, Teft and Lopen. Kal is very strongly aligned with "Protecting", while Teft leans more towards "Leading". Lopen, well, I don't know, neither seem to be overly strongly expressed in him, nor did he or Teft have to risk themselves to the same extent as Kal did. Yet, somehow they are proven "Windrunner material".

I would also argue that we have seen a noticeable evolution in Adolin - he is not a Radiant material at the start of WoK, but he is getting there more and more throughout the series, internalising the Codes that he initially rebelled against, following the principles of the Immortal Words in his behavior, possibly unconsciously, etc. Like the other budding Radiants.

3 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

I mean, he murdered somebody in a fit of rage, and enjoyed it, thats not really something that embodies being an ED. 

Says who? The Edgedancers were supposed to be deadly (and refined). Lift's and Wyndle's pacifism is an outlier, not something that should be taken for an ED archetype. And Adolin killed Sadeas _because_ he was "remembering the forgotten" - the soldiers who died as a result of his betrayal. Dalinar seems to have written them off, even long-time comrades and friends among them, like Havar, but Adolin couldn't forget.

I am not going to repeat all the other examples already mentioned, but Adolin is also the only one who remembers their hosts in Kholinar when they are about to march off on their attack of the palace and takes time to explain to them what is happening and give them advice on what to do if the gambit of taking the capital back fails.

Not to mention all the "listening to the ignored" that he always practiced by listening to Renarin, Dalinar when everybody else considered him mad, Kaladin with his accusations of Amaram, etc. It is not just about listening to the downtroden - notably, Lift achieved the Third Ideal by listening to Nale in Edgedancer!

BTW, Shallan's fiasco in Kholinar happened very much because she _wasn't_ "listening" - i.e. paying attention to small signs that things weren't going as they should with the people she tried to help.

3 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

I also don't see why the perpendicularity is being tossed aside as being the reason for her to be able to not only speak her name to him, but appear quicker than normal.

I do think that the unified realms contributed to Maya's revival, just as they did to Taln's lucidity. At the same time, there were _5_ other dead shardblades in the Thaylen City at that time and we didn't hear about anything unusual happening with those, so... Sanderson did say that it would take more than a shardbearer swearing the Oaths, even really meaning them to revive a shardblade, and I would count this along with the stint in Shadesmar and 7 years of Adolin talking to his sword as a living being as that "more". I am sure that some additional things will need to happen yet, too, but this is certainly a set of unique circumstances that we can be sure didn't happen in the 2 millenia since the Recreance and goes a long way towards explaining why Adolin, of all people who have wielded the shardblades during that time-span would be able to do it.

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I'm going to attempt to add to the discussion. But it does feel a little like battle lines are being drawn here, so I hope we can all at least acknowledge that there are different interpretations possible for what is happening with Maya and where that will go from here. We do not have enough knowledge at this point to be certain we know what is or isn't happening. 

So let me first acknowledge that I understand why some think that what we have seen with Maya means that Adolin will become an Edgedancer. I won't deny that it is one possibility, but if so, there would be a lot of steps to get there from here (best guess it would have to include Adolin swearing oaths, Maya regaining full consciousness, a Nahel bond forming between them). 

I think some valid arguments against all that happening have been made here and elsewhere. The number one in my mind is that, from what we have seen so far, everything unusual happening with Maya has been either in Shadesmar or after Dalinar summoned Honor's Perpendicularity. If I am forgetting an instance that takes place in other times/places please feel free to point that out. Therefore it could be that Brandon wrote that (along with Taln's lucidity) to illustrate what was happening with the realms during the perpendicularity. The reason Adolin's was the only blade we saw this happening with could be two fold: he is our main (only?) viewpoint character with a dead Shardblade, and he has some unique circumstances with his (a long time of treating it differently than other shardbearers and a recent trip to Shadesmar). 

@Calderis I believe you are saying you are sure we will see Adolin revive Maya and become an Edgedancer because of the WoB you quoted? If so I have to say I think his words leave a lot of room for doubt to me. "I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult." Obviously he's saying it is possible but very difficult and I'm just trying to point out his words are very open to interpretation when it comes to what will happen. 

9 hours ago, maxal said:

This hardly is the first time readers refute the Edgedancer theory on the basis they cannot picture him as one.

I feel like this statement reduces very detailed arguments being made such as the one by @PhineasGage earlier in this thread. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but my point is that even in this thread people are offering a detailed breakdown of why they don't find the currently available evidence compelling enough to be convinced Adolin will be an Edgedancer. That is more than just saying "I can't picture him as one." You may have looked at the same evidence and found it compelling and that's an equally valid opinion so I am not saying you must be wrong, only that I'm concerned about being dismissive of different opinions. 

Edited by BraidedRose
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38 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I feel like this statement reduces very detailed arguments being made such as the one by @PhineasGage earlier in this thread. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but my point is that even in this thread people are offering a detailed breakdown of why they don't find the currently available evidence compelling enough to be convinced Adolin will be an Edgedancer. That is more than just saying "I can't picture him as one." You may have looked at the same evidence and found it compelling and that's an equally valid opinion so I am not saying you must be wrong, only that I'm concerned about being dismissive of different opinions. 

It doesn't. It merely means what it means: of all times, each time a reader brings forward the Edgedancer theory, others come forth and say it isn't worth much because they can't envision Adolin as an Edgedancer. I do not fault @PhineasGage: she's hardly the first nor the last to express such thoughts. It wasn't meant to be detrimental, I was just stating a fact and this fact is some readers cannot picture Adolin as an Edgedancer. I don't see how counter-arguing or disagreeing with those claims makes me dismissive. I purposefully did not quote @PhineasGage because my answer wasn't meant to her, specifically, but to all whom may be reading. My perspective is someone wrote a post expressing doubts over Adolin being Radiant material, I wrote another post expressing reasons why I think it fits.

The Edgedancer theory is very dear to me because it wasn't one I initially embarked on, it wasn't one I initially supported, but I came to believe it was a real possibility for Adolin's character. Ask @Aleksiel, if she pops by, the story of how she once convinced me to drop the Dustbringer theory and to support the Edgedancer one, before we came to know Adolin's Blade was an Edgedancer's Blade. I felt OB definitely pushed the character down this path, but I feel the argument stating "Adolin doesn't align with the Edgedancer" doesn't carry much weight. Why?

Because basically no one fits within their order... Let's look at it from a different perspective. Why are we saying Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, Lift, Szeth or anyone fits within a given order? In most cases, we generally accepted they did because they already were Radiants at the time where the story starts. Are we going to argue if Renarin fits into the Truthwatcher order, even if his spren is corrupted? Nope. because Glys having bond him is proof enough he does fit even if the narrative doesn't convey it in manners which are equivalent to Ym or the Stump. Our two other Truthwatchers were seen to be recluse, yes, but also extraordinarily giving people trying to give something back to poor people, each in their own personal ways. Have we seen Renarin attempt anything anywhere closea Nope. Yet, he is Truthwatcher material.

Had we meet Lift before she bonded Wyndle, would be arguing she is the perfect Edgedancer? Nope. She ran away from the palace, she strives to live a life without any obligation, she shuns on responsibilities and if she did a few nice things, we can't say she went to extraordinarily heaps to help those around hers. She only did it when it happened to be convenient such as passing by a bunch of people needing healing and healing them. She didn't, for instance, set up a tent for all of those in need to meet with her and gave her food in exchange of healing which would have been more benevolent and inline with what readers expect Adolin to do, were he a proto-Edgedancers. Readers often focus on Lift saving Gawx to the cost of her life, but when Adolin does the same, it is brushed away, excuse by a list of reasons which makes him selfish instead of benevolent. Readers are quick to point out his fall-outs, but how about Lift? is Lift perfect? Nope. Had she try to convince Gawx to do something for the poor people in Azir after he was made Prime? Nope. Had she use her new status to do any good other than running away which turned to be a good thing, but not because she planned it this way? Nope. So why is Adolinb being held to a different standard?

Others have pointed out Kaladin could have potentially fit into the Edgedancer orders. Could he? I think it is a possibility, but I also think he is more at his place with the Windrunners, but had we meet him prior to Syl bonding him, what would we have thought? Would we have put him with the Windrunners or with the Edgedancer owing the power of healing?

Should we also rehearse the pre-WoR discussion where readers were arguing which order Dalinar should fall into? I recall Stonewards was one of the most popular pick.... because it seemed more straight-forward for a soldier to be a Stoneward. Could he have been one in another life? Hard to say given we do not much about this order, but perhaps it is a possibility too.

Take also Shallan, she lies as she breath, would readers spontaneously put her into the Lightweavers supposedly standing for honesty had we know as little about the order as we know of the Edgedancers? And what of Elhokar? Shall I remember everyone our pre-OB Elhokar discussions? Those having been around at the time will remember how I was firmly against him becoming not only a Lightweaver, but a Radiant. Why? Because I didn't feel he fitted into any order. Sure, he lied, just as Pattern claimed Shallan's lies are what drew him, but while Shallan has been seen to use her world-crafting ability to make a better place for her brothers, Elhokar was all selfishness and vanity. At the time, I made the argument while our Radiants weren't perfect, all of them have been seen to put others before themselves in one occasion or the other. Elhokar, it seemed, was only in it for his personal glory, a thought reinforce by Hoid's talk of the man in OB. And yet, Elhokar did make it.  

Hence, how can we state, with any level of certainty, Adolin can't, one day, belong into the Edgedancer orders when he has been shown to adopt more Radiant-related behavior than already made-up Radiants such as Elhokar, Teft, Lopen? How about Lopen who seems to have become a Radiant merely out of wanting it very badly more than out of really being protective? How can we brush away every single time Adolin has behave in ways which are inline with what we know of the order on the basis "it isn't enough"? What is enough? How come it is enough for basically everyone else, but not for him?

I say enough is when a spren thinks it is enough and, so far, it seems Maya has made her stance. She stood up for Adolin, she clawed the Fused, she fought for him. She gave him her name and she yearned to fight the thunderclast which also highlights how different she is from pacifist Wyndle. Sure, there was the perpendicularity, but as @Calderis pointed out, none of Maya's sign of life happened during this crucial moments, all happened before or after.

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

It doesn't. It merely means what it means: of all times, each time a reader brings forward the Edgedancer theory, others come forth and say it isn't worth much because they can't envision Adolin as an Edgedancer. I do not fault @PhineasGage: she's hardly the first nor the last to express such thoughts. It wasn't meant to be detrimental, I was just stating a fact and this fact is some readers cannot picture Adolin as an Edgedancer. I don't see how counter-arguing or disagreeing with those claims makes me dismissive. I purposefully did not quote @PhineasGage because my answer wasn't meant to her, specifically, but to all whom may be reading. My perspective is someone wrote a post expressing doubts over Adolin being Radiant material, I wrote another post expressing reasons why I think it fits.

The Edgedancer theory is very dear to me because it wasn't one I initially embarked on, it wasn't one I initially supported, but I came to believe it was a real possibility for Adolin's character. Ask @Aleksiel, if she pops by, the story of how she once convinced me to drop the Dustbringer theory and to support the Edgedancer one, before we came to know Adolin's Blade was an Edgedancer's Blade.

My point is that the arguments being made are not all "Adolin can't be an Edgedancer because I can't envision him as one," there are arguments that go beyond that in scope, but the sentence of yours I highlighted before as well as parts of the above seem to be made to diminish those arguments. I highlighted @PhineasGage's post because I thought it was a good example of someone addressing why they didn't feel Adolin is Edgedancer material with more in-depth discussion. 

So I'm not really sure if your points about all the other characters and how well they fit their orders was directed in response to my post or not but I will try to address that from my perspective. The way I see it is that it is all subjective and depends on how a reader interprets the ideals of each order and the qualities of each character. The exact roles and characteristics of each order are only partly known to us and of course each will not be a uniform bunch but be made up of individuals.  The characters you mention are known Knights Radiant. In Adolin's case it is different because he is not at this point an Edgedancer and it remains an open question whether he will be. For readers trying to figure out if that is Brandon's intention, it makes sense to analyze whether Adolin fits what we know of Edgedancers (of which Lift is our primary example) along with other evidence. Other people have come to a different conclusion than you but that doesn't mean they are not examining the evidence with as much care. 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Hence, how can we state, with any level of certainty, Adolin can't, one day, belong into the Edgedancer orders when he has been shown to adopt more Radiant-related behavior than already made-up Radiants such as Elhokar, Teft, Lopen?

I for one am not saying that he "can't, one day" become an Egdedancer. I'm saying that upon closer examination, I find the evidence that he will to be less convincing. So as it stands now, I am not expecting that he will. Future evidence may well change my mind on that. To flip it around, at this point I find it a stretch to say that it is a certainty that he will, but you are of course free to feel differently about that. A lot of what is being expressed here on both sides are feelings, hunches, interpretations, which is perfectly fine but one person's feelings do not negate any others. 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I say enough is when a spren thinks it is enough and, so far, it seems Maya has made her stance. She stood up for Adolin, she clawed the Fused, she fought for him. She gave him her name and she yearned to fight the thunderclast which also highlights how different she is from pacifist Wyndle. Sure, there was the perpendicularity, but as @Calderis pointed out, none of Maya's sign of life happened during this crucial moments, all happened before or after

Finally everything that happens before the perpendicularity is when Adolin and Maya are in Shadesmar so I see that as also being a special case. As for everything that happens immediately after I would point you to Jasnah and Ivory's discussion in chapter 120, page 1151 where they make clear that the three realms are close not only in the moment of Dalinar creating the column of light but for a period of time afterward. To quote in part:

"This place is three, still," he said. "Almost three."

"Or three places are nearly one," Jasnah replied.

later:

"Three worlds," Ivory said. "Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close."

"Then let's make use of it before it fades, shall we?"

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1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

The way I see it is that it is all subjective and depends on how a reader interprets the ideals of each order and the qualities of each character.

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

For readers trying to figure out if that is Brandon's intention, it makes sense to analyze whether Adolin fits what we know of Edgedancers (of which Lift is our primary example) along with other evidence.

I have a couple of issue here. It is all subjective, and not just to the reader, but also to the Spren. The Ideals don't have to mean the same thing to everyone. All of them can be interpret. What breaks an oath for one Radiant may not for another of the same Order. The divine attributes themselves are an in world explanation attributed by people and not a hard rule... 

And yet everyone uses Lift as the basis for Adolin "not being Edgedancer Material." whereas both Nale and the in world Words of Radiance make it clear that Lift is not the way the typical Edgedancer was, at the least, perceived. 

We don't know what "Edgedancer material" is, so yes it bothers me when people try and argue Adolin isn't. Especially when they try and use Lift as a means for doing so. In my opinion, they are in very very different situations but the core of both characters is actually very similar. I don't think we'd have a very different story if the two of them were to swap places and ages, (well Vorin gender roles would ruin that but hopefully you get what I'm saying).

This is precisely why I tend to argue on the Maya side of things now. Because on that side of it... Yeah, think Shadesmar and that situation was important for facilitating what is already happening. But with the way that the deadblades were injured, and the Wetwear WoB, I don't see how the perpendicularity can  even attributed. 

Take the Taln example that is used. Yes the perpendicularity temporarily fixed him. He has been damaged cognitively, but the perp brought his Spiritual Aspect more in line with the Physical so his Cognitive impairment was bypassed for a temporary fix.

Maya doesn't have a physical aspect other than the blade. Her actions in Shadesmar specifically show that cognition is returning. In Cosmere healing we have never once seen an example of the Cognitive being healed. It had only acted as a limitation on the Physical. What was ripped out and created the hole in the Spren was a Nahel bond. Without replacing what was ripped out, they should be as Ico described. Maya made a choice to save Adolin from the Fused. Yes it was in Shadesmar, but so is every other deadblades, and according to Ico the only choice they make is to try and reach the vicinity of their bearer. Taking action requires thought, and thought requires repair. 

Yes this is all my opinion. Yes I have been in the Adolin will revive his Blade and be an Edgedancer camp since we'll before OB. I wasn't there originally. The characters actions are what swayed me. OB just said to me, from a realmatic perspective, that Mayalaran is healing... And for that to be happening, in my opinion at least since the evidence that I see as conclusive isn't enough for others, the bond is already forming. 

Edited by Calderis
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5 hours ago, Isilel said:

First of all, it has been established that a person could fit in more than Order, as qualities overlap, to a degree. So, yes, I, for one, can certainly imagine circumstances that would have led to Kaladin becoming an Edgedancer instead of a Windrunner. It doesn't have to be a perfect fit either, nor do members of the same Order express the associated Divine attributes in the same way. I mean, look at Kaladin, Teft and Lopen. Kal is very strongly aligned with "Protecting", while Teft leans more towards "Leading". Lopen, well, I don't know, neither seem to be overly strongly expressed in him, nor did he or Teft have to risk themselves to the same extent as Kal did. Yet, somehow they are proven "Windrunner material".

Lopen protects, but in his own special way. This is shown after the battle, when his second oath is accepted. He's with the sick, reminding a guy who had just lost his arm that life was still worth living. It's not standing in front of someone yelling "You shall not pass!" but it's protecting in it's own special way.

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I've argued pretty strongly (pre-OB) that Adolin didn't fit my idea of an Edgedancer. Yeah, our understanding of the Orders is limited and there's clearly some wiggle room.

My opinion has shifted I think, but I can certainly respect those who don't feel Adolin fits their take on Edgedancers. For someone who feels that way, it's enough to make you wonder if maybe there are alternate explanations of what's happening to Maya.

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34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We don't know what "Edgedancer material" is, so yes it bothers me when people try and argue Adolin isn't. Especially when you they try and use Lift as a means for doing so.

But it doesn't bother you when people try to argue that Adolin is Edgedancer material when we don't know what that is? 

Lift is only one data point so we shouldn't give her too much weight, not all Edgedancers will be just like her. But she provides an important set of information that Brandon has chosen to show us, so why shouldn't she be considered?

The rest of what you said I think leans heavily on your interpretation of the WoB you quoted earlier. Let's assume you are right and the piece of her soul (which is Spiritual) that has been ripped away is the Nahel bond. Brandon does state that the bond is what gives them the ability to have sentience in the physical plane. So the damage to her Spiritual self, causes a loss of Cognitive function (she is "mostly mindless"). You argue that Taln is damaged Cognitively but the closeness of the Spiritual and Physical planes allows that Cognitive damage to be bypassed. Why not something similar then with Maya, the closeness of the planes allows some of her Spiritual damage to be bypassed? To be honest I don't know if that is how it worked for Taln or Maya. I think we are making some huge leaps here based on a WoB that just isn't that explicit in exactly how it works. But either way I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. 

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14 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

But it doesn't bother you when people try to argue that Adolin is Edgedancer material when we don't know what that is? 

Lift is only one data point so we shouldn't give her too much weight, not all Edgedancers will be just like her. But she provides an important set of information that Brandon has chosen to show us, so why shouldn't she be considered?

No it doesn't. But that's because as I said, I think that at their core, Adolin and Lift are actually pretty similar. 

14 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

But either way I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

OK. Let me try to explain it a little differently.

With Taln his issue is basically extensive trauma that's impaired his Cognitive functions. The Realms coming closer together let's his Spiritual Aspect, his ideal unharmed self, to play out on the physical despite that Cognitive damage. 

For Maya, a piece has been ripped out of her Spiritual Aspect. There nothing there to fix the damage. And if the damage is also Cognitive in nature, then that has only ever been shown to act as a limiting factor on healing from the Spiritual to the Physical. We have never seen Cognitive damage repaired. 

It's like you have a template for how the healing should work in the physical. A parts availability list in the Cognitive, and the actual piece put together in the physical. With Taln, you normally have the correct template, but parts are on back order so you've only been able to put together what's available. In Thaylen City, the parts they use to mold all the others were temporarily available on loan from the manufacturer, but had to be returned. 

For Maya, the template itself has been damaged, so there's no information on where to start fixing things. 

Edited by Calderis
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I also see similarities between Adolin and Lift. They seem to interact with people similarly. I'm not good at putting things into words but there's definitely something there.

They're from very different places and walks of life so it makes sense that they don't seem that similar on the surface but when you look deeper I think there's definitely similarity.

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2 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

 I highlighted @PhineasGage's post because I thought it was a good example of someone addressing why they didn't feel Adolin is Edgedancer material with more in-depth discussion. 

This is exactly it. Some readers cannot envision Adolin as an Edgedancer because the narrative hasn't convinced them, so yes, it comes down to readers not being able to picture him as such. The narrative gave ample examples why Adolin could be a good candidate, but it isn't convincing some readers. This argument has always been purely subjective. It never really was a matter as they are no "examples", but always a matter of them "not being enough" for some readers. 

So yes, essentially, it boils down to readers not feeling Adolin can be an Edgedancer. My post was treating exactly this topic by comparing Adolin to other characters readers might not feel were Radiant material too, but ended being ones.

2 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

So I'm not really sure if your points about all the other characters and how well they fit their orders was directed in response to my post or not but I will try to address that from my perspective. The way I see it is that it is all subjective and depends on how a reader interprets the ideals of each order and the qualities of each character. The exact roles and characteristics of each order are only partly known to us and of course each will not be a uniform bunch but be made up of individuals.  The characters you mention are known Knights Radiant. In Adolin's case it is different because he is not at this point an Edgedancer and it remains an open question whether he will be. For readers trying to figure out if that is Brandon's intention, it makes sense to analyze whether Adolin fits what we know of Edgedancers (of which Lift is our primary example) along with other evidence. Other people have come to a different conclusion than you but that doesn't mean they are not examining the evidence with as much care

My answer wasn't meant to just your post, it had a broader approach. As I said above, it is purely subjective, but where I find the argument is falling is when readers are trying to argue there is absolutely no textual evidence Adolin could become an Edgedancer. The textual evidence has always been there, but some readers are choosing to interpret it in ways which make it less likely for Adolin to become a Radiant whereas I personally believe there isn't much else Adolin could do, besides pissing rainbows, which would make him more suitable, but this is and will always remain a subjective argumentation. Mind, I am not saying anyone claimed there was no textual evidence, I am just trying to better phrase my thoughts.

The characters I mentioned are known Radiants, but if they weren't known Radiants, then perhaps we'd be having the same discussion about them. The point I was trying to bring forward is the fact Adolin hasn't had a moment where he did exactly what Lift did within similar circumstances (because the boy he saved in Thaylenar isn't convincing additional readers) does not mean he is "no Edgedancer material". I tried to highlight how Elhokar certainly never were Radiant material, Renarin either and countless of others and yet, turned out they are. So why is it, with all the textual evidence showing Adolin adopting behaviors befitting a given order, practically embodying oaths he never sworn "not enough"? How can Adolin saving the prostitute, listening to Kaladin, staying in prison on his behalf, saving the boy, mourning his soldiers, caring about his dead-Blade beyond what is acceptable, being helpful to others on practically every single occasion he has considered to be "not enough" when characters such as Elhokar never did one action which could be considered Radian-like? 

Point is readers might come up with different interpretation, but I find some commentaries are purposefully trying to diminish what Adolin did.. He did save the prostitute. It doesn't matter his life wasn't put in danger, he did what no other individual of his rank would have done. He did listen to Kaladin, which Kaladin himself states never happened before. He did stay in prison for Kaladin which no one was willing to do. He did save the boy against the thunderclast which not everyone would have done and it did put his life in danger. He did care for Kaladin in Shadesmar which isn't something either Shallan onr Azure was doing.

He did all of those things, so while readers can say it is all meaningless, I will always argue there is far more evidence of Adolin eventually becoming an Edgedancer than there ever was for basically every single other Radiants, especially the more minor ones.

2 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

I for one am not saying that he "can't, one day" become an Egdedancer. I'm saying that upon closer examination, I find the evidence that he will to be less convincing. So as it stands now, I am not expecting that he will. Future evidence may well change my mind on that. To flip it around, at this point I find it a stretch to say that it is a certainty that he will, but you are of course free to feel differently about that. A lot of what is being expressed here on both sides are feelings, hunches, interpretations, which is perfectly fine but one person's feelings do not negate any others. 

He has started to form a relationship with his dead Edgedancer Blade: this is one incredibly strong piece of evidence. Alternative explanations aren't, IMHO, strong enough to be convincing. It usually comes down to readers not really wanting Adolin to become a Radiant and, as such, trying to find an explanation which can explain Maya without having Adolin have already form a Nahel Bond with her. I feel it is akin to trying to prove something which did happen did not happen because the outcome is unpopular. I find it very similar to how I tried to argue the Cryptic Elhokar saw in the mirrors weren't trying to bond him: I didn't want it to happen, so I refute the evidence and made up and alternate explanation which pleased me better. Turns out I was wrong, even if my alternate explanation did seem plausible enough.

However, this is one narrative element we won't know more about until next book or a good WoB on the matter.

2 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

Finally everything that happens before the perpendicularity is when Adolin and Maya are in Shadesmar so I see that as also being a special case. As for everything that happens immediately after I would point you to Jasnah and Ivory's discussion in chapter 120, page 1151 where they make clear that the three realms are close not only in the moment of Dalinar creating the column of light but for a period of time afterward. To quote in part:

"This place is three, still," he said. "Almost three."

"Or three places are nearly one," Jasnah replied.

later:

"Three worlds," Ivory said. "Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close."

"Then let's make use of it before it fades, shall we?"

Bottom line is Maya is speaking to Adolin. The only, only, only way we have seen sprens gaining the ability to voice their thoughts into the physical realm is through the Nahel Bond. So even if the perpendicularity did help Maya interact with Adolin, it doesn't change the fact she chose to. She tried to protect him. She warned him of danger and she came to his summon in less than 10 seconds. 

Given Maya interacts with Adolin both before, after and in ways which is similar to other bonded sprens, I find the explanation is not strong enough to fully explain what is happening.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Yes this is all my opinion. Yes I have been in the Adolin will revive his Blade and be an Edgedancer camp since we'll before OB. I wasn't there originally. The characters actions are what swayed me. OB just said to me, from a realmatic perspective, that Mayalaran is healing... And for that to be happening, in my opinion at least since the evidence that I see as conclusive isn't enough for others, the bond is already forming. 

I do agree with you. The bond is already forming, but it might evolve differently and it seems weaker than regular bonds. Progress might not come, but I do agree there is a bond in between Maya and Adolin. 

17 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I also see similarities between Adolin and Lift. They seem to interact with people similarly. I'm not good at putting things into words but there's definitely something there.

They're from very different places and walks of life so it makes sense that they don't seem that similar on the surface but when you look deeper I think there's definitely similarity.

I once made a post on this very topic... It was a very good post. Lift and Adolin are both being superstitious... They both put a lot of importance on smaller things and they both struggle with their identity combined with pressure from society. While Lift evades and became irresponsible, Adolin took the pressure and tried to be the man his father demanded. Very similar characters, different trajectories.

Edited by maxal
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I'm gonna make this short and say why I don't think Adolin is someone, who should become an Edgedancer - no, going even further, not even someone, who should be a Radiant.

A Radiant isn't measured on the actions, he's occasionally doing, but rather on whether or not he lives through these actions. All of our Radiants share one thing: They are highly idealistic. (They swear Ideals, remember?) Adolin isn't. Adolin doesn't have a agenda, that he follows. Adolin doesn't believe in anything. Adolin doesn't have a moral compass. (Remember how he didn't know, whether him killing Sadeas was right and completely relied on external approval/disapproval?) Adolin just goes with the flow. And he's happy with that. He said it himself at the beginning, that he'd rather spend his days lounging, dueling and courting the occasional girl. I don't think, that this desire has changed much. Over three books, he hasn't adopted a belief, that he follows. The last code he followed were the Codes of War (and not because he chose to do so, but because his father told him to) and thought, that they were rubbish, because they constrained him. In the end, he broke the Code of Restraint (and to an extent the Code of Honor), by killing Sadeas. Yes, Sadeas might have been an cremhole and his death might be justified and yet, Adolin broke the Codes to kill him.

I don't see him able to adhere to oaths long. He's too much of a free spirit for that.

And herein lies the difference between Lift and Adolin: Adolin might have done similar actions like Lift, that should qualify him as an Edgedancer, but he just did them, when the opportunity was there to do them. That makes him a hero, yes, and probably better than 90 % of the other noble lighteyes on Roshar, but he never did those things out of sheer belief, that it was the right thing to do. Lift, on the other hand, herself says, that she cares about other people ("the forgotten"), because someone has to. She genuinely believes that, because she also stated, that in the past she once stopped caring and thought, that it was worse than being dead.

Edited by SLNC
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When it's taken to that extreme... That all Radiants are highly idealistic... I would really like an explanation of Malata. 

Edit: or Venli for that matter. 

Edited by Calderis
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16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

When it's taken to that extreme... That all Radiants are highly idealistic... I would really like an explanation of Malata. 

I don't know what the Ideals of the Dustbringers are, so I can't say that her behavior aligns with them, but I do think, that she believes in vengeance.

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

or Venli for that matter. 

Once again, I don't know what the Ideals of the Willshapers (or whatever Order she will end up in, because even that is still unconfirmed) will be, so I don't know how well Venli aligns to them. But she does believe in self-betterment at the end of Oathbringer, when she swears the First Ideal.

That said, both of these characters have only received a fraction of characterization, that our other Radiants (and Adolin, for that matter) have received, so it is hard to correctly predict their idealistic natures. I'm sure, we'll get more for them in the future.

Edited by SLNC
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