[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Bort]

33 minutes ago, Stark said:

But I don't see it in book four, other than the first few hints of an idea.  This would be, at its earliest, a book six event, for after the fifteen year gap.

Definitely. It's going to take books four and five just to get Alethkar back.

[Stark]

But as for Maya, I think our next hint about her will be more subtle.  Post Thaylen battle, with the three realms more distant, I think it will be a bit more difficult for Adolin to communicate with her. I think the following will happen in the gap year:

Post battle, the seven-beat limit for Adolin will revert to 10.

The vague feelings he gets from her will persist, but be more sparse, and require more extreme situations to connect (IE: He won't be able to connect in the practice yard)

Maya's shape may change - that would be the biggest indicator of her revival that I would expect to see.  Not changing form to a different weapon, but the shape of her swordform may shift subtly from summoning to summoning.  Adolin, Shallan and Pattern may be the only ones who notice this.

Adolin will spend time with Pattern one on one to try to reach her.

 

I think many of these will happen in the gap year, and Adolin may make some minor progress, maybe as extreme as only needing five heartbeats (You number theorists out there, what do you think of the 7?), but nothing major until he gets back on screen.

[ScavellTane]

Theory:

The severing of the Nahel bond by the Ancient Radiants and their spren is not the cause of the Radiant-sprens 'death'. It is being 'locked' in a static state (blade-form) that is considered death by the spren. Spren always move, they are never completely static. Being locked in a static state is what the spren consider 'death'. Without the Nahel Bond all spren should just be mindless/regular spren.

The Ancient Radiants 'locked' their spren, that was their betrayal.

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by ScavellTane

[CrazyRioter]

Gonna quote WoB on the subject of dead spren and the breaking of the bonds.

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

source

 

[Stark]

What this quote tells me is that if Adolin manages to revive her, it will be by what amounts to a soulgraft.  The Maya he revives will not necessarily be the same Maya that 'died.'  This can go three ways I guess. 

 

One is the ship of Theseus paradox, where the part will be replaced, is it the same spren?  She will have (eventually) her memories return from before the Recreance.  She will function as a spren.  She will hopefully never remember her centuries as a Deadeye.  She will be a little different for her experience, but ultimately be the same as any other spren who has bonded someone new after their original bondmate has died.  The same as before, yet different, subtly.

 

One is the Frankenstein's monster result.  I view it almost as organ transplant, only more along the lines that she lost an arm, and they grafted someone else's arm onto replace it.  Is she whole? Yes?  Is it clear that it was a graft job? Very.  Could it be unsettling to other spren? Most definitely.  Will it be better than an eternity as a deadeye.  Yes, but only because there is hope for improvement now.  But the scars from the soulgraft to fix what was ripped out will be very apparent.

 

One is something new entirely.  She is not the old Maya.  She is not the Deadeye Maya.  She is the Adolin Maya, something new created by the blend of her soul and the part of his grafted on.  The line delineating the two is blurred, and you can't tell where one ends and the other begins, but the parts are distinct for now, but become less so with time.  Maybe she starts presenting similar to Glys.  Like a corrupted Cultivation spren - not red, not fully different, but fundamentally changed.  A spren with human eyes?  A spren made of vines, but with Adolin's hair.

 

Option one is best case, two is worst case, three is what I view as most likely.  She becomes something new, like Glys.  A Radiant spren not wholly of the previous ten categories.  Whether this is wonderful or terrible, only time will tell.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

Okay, I was just listening to WoR at the part when Pattern is talking about the nature of spren. He says the spren "aren't born as men are, and don't die as men do." He says that before gaining sentience, spren are just sort of in everything all at once, though the translation is difficult to explain. He tells Shallan of the old cryptics that had been bonded to radiants, and how they were returned to their non-sentient state after the recreance, that nothing anyone could do would bring them back. (That actually kind of reminds me of how AonDor stopped working, only this change was brought about by the radiants changing, not the land.) Thing is, Maya is being brought back. Remember that Adolin refused to name his blade, presumably out of respect for it, or at least its previous life. I don't have a clue what to think of Shallan's past, but she can summon her blade (Pattern???) in less than 10 heartbeats. So did Adolin in the Battle of Thaylen Field. I think being a dead-eye is about the equivalent to a human being catatonic. Maya is recognizing Adolin's virtues and wanting to serve once again. I think Adolin is probably bringing her back to life. I wonder if he'll get to bond her when the process completes. I'm sure you guys will find about six things wrong with my explanation, so go for it.

P.S. Do we know what kind of spren Maya was?

[Stark]

@Narcoleptic AxolotlIf you have not finished reading/listening to WoR, you may want to avoid the OB spoiler pages like the plague.  There are a lot of things that the rest of WoR, and subsequently OB, will address that will answer for you.  You run an extremely high risk of being burnt by spoilers here.  Pattern, Shallan's shardblade, how it is like Adolin's, how it is different.  All these things are not things you want to be reading about here...

 

Keep reading at your own risk.

[XenosHg]

You're saying that healed Maya might not be the same as before... But if a spren leaves his realm and becomes less sentient, then bonds someone and becomes more sentient, then his knight dies and he becomes a free spren again, then he bonds another person... Is he the same personality all the 3 times, or a new one every time?

Edited April 13, 2018 by XenosHg

[CrazyRioter]

Spren do become somewhat more human-like in thought processes when bonded to a human apparently, but I think their basic personality remains constant. Remember, they have independent intelligence in the Cognitive Realm, they just lose their memories and intelligence when transitioning to the Physical Realm and need a bond to access them there.

@Narcoleptic Axolotl Maya was/is a cultivationspren (like Wyndle).

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

Thanks @CrazyRioter.

 

@Stark Where did you get the idea I haven't read OB? I have listened to it. Several times. I talked about the Battle of Thaylen Field and a little bit of the part where they go to shadesmar.

[tanceflam]

I really don't have the time needed to read all of 12 pages so maybe someone has already wrote that... but i have something do add.

 

1. Spren can be killed (i think) - didn't Kaladin using Syl killed one of the voidspren in kholinar? i read only polish version but i think syl asked "did we just killed this spren?" - i don't think that this one particular voidspren have turned deadeyedvoidspren (!) or something, it just got KILLED (of course it was syl who killed it, not like breaking an oath).

2. remember Warbreaker? remember Nightblood? i must ask... did anyone have nahel bond with it? or you just need to hold it to hear it? there was another blade - i don't know her name in english version (polish = Lazur) warrior women who commanded soldiers of the wall in kholinar. one of the honorsprens on the boat in shadesmar said something like "it speaks!" - does she had nahel bond? this can be just it - that Maya is regaining her mind - without the nahel bond. you can see that many many spren in shadesmar have minds - without any bonds. can Maya become a spren with mind that works, but without any bond? and due to adolin's connection she can WILLINGLY change herself to a sword? like Syl can be a girl in dress, can be a girl in havah or be just a cloud. or a sword

Edited August 27, 2020 by tanceflam
missing letters xd

[+Bzhydack]

13 hours ago, tanceflam said:

I really don't have the time needed to read all of 12 pages so maybe someone has already wrote that... but i have something do add.

 

1. Spred can be killed (i think) - didn't Kaladin using Syl killed one of the voidspren in kholinar? i read only polish version but i think syl asked "did we just killed this spren?" - i don't think that this one particular voidspren have turned deadeyedvoidspren (!) or something, it just got KILLED (of course it was syl who killed it, not like breaking an oath).

2. remember Warbreaker? remember Nightblood? i must ask... did anyone have nahel bond with it? or you just need to hold it to hear it? there was another blade - i don't know her name in english version (polish = Lazur) warrior women who commanded soldiers of the wall in kholinar. one of the honorsprens on the boat in shademar said something like "it speaks!" - does she had nahel bond? this can be just it - that Maya is regaining her mind - without the nahel bond. you can see that many many spren in shadesmar have minds - without any bonds. can Maya become a spren with mind that works, but without any bond? and due to adolin's connection she can WILLINGLY change herself to a sword? like Syl can be a girl in dress, can be a girl in havah or be just a cloud. or a sword

Cześć

Ad. 1 Yes, spren can be killed, if theirs Investiture is destroyed/dispersed. Nightblood can do this. Shardblade cut in all 3 realms, so...

Ad. 2 First, Lazur (org Azure) is character we know.

Spoiler

From Warbreaker. Its Vivenna. And sword she has isnt normal Shardblade. This is Awakened Sword. Like Nightblood, but less Invested, so not as dangerous.

Trick is, Spren need Bond to have mind IN PHYSICAL REALM. And Maya is trapped in PR in form of Blade, so she need to restore Bond.

[tanceflam]

good point.

to be honest I just hope that Maya wasn't sentient only because od dalinar in this particular moment. about Adolin - I'm not sure that I will be satisfied with him being surgebinder. but i won't be surprised either.

and I hope that Mayawill have some lines (perhaps not as much as syl or pattern, but who knows?) in 4th book. And November is closer and closer

[+robardin]

6 hours ago, tanceflam said:

good point.

to be honest I just hope that Maya wasn't sentient only because [of] dalinar in this particular moment. about Adolin - I'm not sure that I will be satisfied with him being surgebinder. but i won't be surprised either.

and I hope that Mayawill have some lines (perhaps not as much as syl or pattern, but who knows?) in 4th book. And November is closer and closer

You know, that had never really even crossed my mind, but it is a very valid point. "Mayalaran" might have been partially revived during the Time of Unity at Thaylen Fields from being near the giant Perpendicularity, but only temporarily - the way that Taln was restored to sanity to talk to Ash, but which later passed.

In which case - did that happen to other Shardbearers bonded to Shardblades at that battle? After all, Adolin has treated and felt about his Blade differently than other Shardbearers do.

[tanceflam]

Adolin didn't give any name to his sword (it was i think before duels in 2nd book). Because it belonged to a Knight who gave a name - and Adolin didn't know the right one. and mostly i think that Adolin doesn't treat his sword only as a tool - and others do. First, he talked to it (her :D) and then he saw her in Shadesmar. i think that other people who treat sword just as a sword, may not have the right connection. i don't think that those 2 swords in amaram's possesion talked to him (but who knows?).

a small digression - talking swords remind me of Lilarcor in Baldur's Gate 2 (anyone played?)

[Pathfinder]

On 8/27/2020 at 8:42 AM, robardin said:

You know, that had never really even crossed my mind, but it is a very valid point. "Mayalaran" might have been partially revived during the Time of Unity at Thaylen Fields from being near the giant Perpendicularity, but only temporarily - the way that Taln was restored to sanity to talk to Ash, but which later passed.

That is part of my theory regarding Dalinar and Adolin. 

On 8/27/2020 at 8:42 AM, robardin said:

In which case - did that happen to other Shardbearers bonded to Shardblades at that battle? After all, Adolin has treated and felt about his Blade differently than other Shardbearers do.

We do not know. None have commented. Though it is of note that Oathbringer recognizes and responds to Dalinar much like Maya does with Adolin. If you are curious about the full theory, let me know. 

[+robardin]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

That is part of my theory regarding Dalinar and Adolin. 

We do not know. None have commented. Though it is of note that Oathbringer recognizes and responds to Dalinar much like Maya does with Adolin. If you are curious about the full theory, let me know. 

Well the thing is, there are more things about Maya's "revival" that do not extend to other Shardblades. For example, even before Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity, through which Adolin emerged from Shadesmar to Thaylen Fields and into Renarin's healing hands for his gut wound, we saw Maya as a deadeye spren in Shadesmar act to save Adolin from being finished off by the Fused that dealt him that gut wound. Screaming and leaping onto and clawing at the surprised Fused, who stabbed Maya but to no effect.

You can't explain that as an effect of Dalinar UNITING the Realms, which hadn't happened yet - that this particular "deadeye" was no longer quite so dead, and specifically motivated to some semblance of life in defense of her bonded bearer in Adolin. Which no other deadeye has ever been known, I would guess, to suddenly regain volition, going by what Notum said about them (including his own father).

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well the thing is, there are more things about Maya's "revival" that do not extend to other Shardblades. For example, even before Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity, through which Adolin emerged from Shadesmar to Thaylen Fields and into Renarin's healing hands for his gut wound, we saw Maya as a deadeye spren in Shadesmar act to save Adolin from being finished off by the Fused that dealt him that gut wound. Screaming and leaping onto and clawing at the surprised Fused, who stabbed Maya but to no effect.

You can't explain that as an effect of Dalinar UNITING the Realms, which hadn't happened yet - that this particular "deadeye" was no longer quite so dead, and specifically motivated to some semblance of life in defense of her bonded bearer in Adolin. Which no other deadeye has ever been known, I would guess, to suddenly regain volition, going by what Notum said about them (including his own father).

Have we seen another shardbearer in shadesmar come under attack with the dead spren near by to compare?

We do know that dead spren are drawn to where their shardblade is on the other side. We see Dalinar feel an urging from Oathbringer in Way of Kings before Adolin ever mentally voiced feeling anything from Maya. We see Dalinar get recognized and remembered by Oathbringer before Adolin experiences the same. 

To be clear I am not attributing Maya's awakening purely to the perpendicularity. Also I have a whole lot more of what I feel is evidence to back up my theory. I am not sure if me posting that here would be a digression or not though.