[OB spoilers] Is Maya alive?

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Bort said:

Didn't Adolin get a feeling of something like eagerness just before they went up against the thunderclast?

He did feel a stirring on the wind. He just interpreted the eagerness into it. After that he felt something like a sigh from Maya.

[CrazyRioter]

That was the point when she told him her name.

[maxal]

21 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

No, I do not believe that it is, for several reasons.

1. "But, Crazy Unicorn Lady!" I hear you cry. "Has not Brandon seeded the possibility within our hearts?" Well, yes. And he's been just cagey enough about his protests of its impossibility to stoke the fires of belief. And that's my first big objection - it's too obvious. We know the ways and whims of this man. When has he ever given us such a clear path to an answer and then followed it without turning it into a giant misdirect? When has his foreshadowing ever so lacked subtlety? When in the lives of his characters do such events line up to give us such a nice, neat conclusion wrapped up in a big red bow?

2. Adolin hasn't earned it. Our forum's most ardent (ha) Adolin fan (hi, @maxal!) has admitted her disappointment at the lack of attention to Adolin's character development thus far. I would posit that it's simply not time for it yet; Brandon has been focusing on other storylines, but I'm sure Adolin won't remain the same forever. He's not ready to power up without going through some crem.

Combining these two points brings us to,

3. I don't see such a simple, linear progression for Adolin's character on the horizon. In fact, I'd be disappointed if it happened that way for precisely that reason. There's no dramatic tension if the readership can see the endgame from miles off, which tells me that there are more interesting things ahead for Adolin and Maya. Remember, Brandon is the man who breaks our hearts and leaves us begging for more. There are so many much more fascinating paths this can take. What if Adolin's continued bond with her wakes her up just enough to become much more cognizant of how much she's lost? What if Sja-anat decides to try to help with her corruption/enlightenment thing and breaks Maya even further? What if Adolin manages to go as far as he can with reviving her, only to bond a live spren of a different Order, and find himself compelled to give Maya up and leave her in an even worse state than she was in order to become a full Radiant himself?

There are so many possibilities. Tons more, I'm sure, than even I've thought of, and all of them more interesting than binary question of, "Does Adolin revive Maya? Y/N"

Here's to Brandon leaving all of our brains in the dust.

Well, great post Oh Great Unicorn Lady, but I feel I need to offer a few brief, but necessary precision.

I obviously cannot speak for others, only for myself, but I would personally hate if Adolin revived Maya, despite it being my favored narrative for his character, without having gone through any significant, scar making hardships. I always felt the interest in having Adolin becoming a Radiant was the opportunity to watch a character experienced a breaking down during the main narrative as opposed to reading it, yet again, through flashbacks. So while Brandon has decided he would orchestrated his narrative around a group of people having dark secrets hidden within their pasts which broke them enough for a Nahel Bond, I feel too much of one thing stops being interesting after a while.

In other words, by always playing the narrative of the "painful memories", "hidden past", "terrible secret" Brandon is starting to write similar-like narratives which make a character such as Adolin even more interesting because, with him, it doesn't have to be about the past. It can be about the present. It can be about now and now, with Maya, resolutely sounds very interesting, providing it gets sufficient coverage.

Hence, having Adolin revive Maya, casually, just "because" would not be satisfying even if it remains, on the whole, a narrative I have favored. Adolin becoming a Radiant has to be treated with great care within the narrative because many readers are against the idea, because it isn't a popular narrative. I feel the author should not allow it to happen unless he is wiling to spend the page time to make it worth it, to make us root for Adolin and Maya, to make it feel like, as you said, earned it and, because he is a Kholin, he is going to have to earn it more than any other Radiants.

This, IMHO, is the interesting narrative for Adolin's character, but it perhaps demands a commitment to the character the author has yet to voice out.

[Bort]

On 22/03/2018 at 1:26 PM, SLNC said:

He did feel a stirring on the wind. He just interpreted the eagerness into it. After that he felt something like a sigh from Maya.

I got the impression the sigh was more about Adolin handing her off to someone else who she wasn't bonded to.

Or maybe it was a feeling of resignation, or something like that - I'm not sure now.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Bort

[CrazyRioter]

He got a distinct feeling of resigned agreement from her when he loaned her to that dude who's name I forget.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

He got a distinct feeling of resigned agreement from her when he loaned her to that dude who's name I forget.

Quote

Go with him for now, Maya, Adolin thought.

He almost wished she’d object, but the vague sensation he received was a resigned agreement.

The text literally says vague. As in: Not sure. Not distinct. Besides, looking at him wishing objection, could certainly have affected his perception.

Edited March 23, 2018 by SLNC

[CrazyRioter]

He didn't get the objection he was kinda hoping for though. He got agreement, if not very happy agreement. And it doesn't read like he was confused about what he was getting from her. She might not have been able to communicate very strongly but it was strong enough for him to understand.

[Guest]

On 23.3.2018 at 11:38 PM, CrazyRioter said:

He got agreement, if not very happy agreement.

That is my point. His wish affecting his perception, putting the resignation into it. I might be wrong though.

But on the point of "resigned agreement". Resigned agreement is something like, "Well, it's not like, that I have a choice, do I?" Unlike living bonded spren, Maya is forced to act on Adolin's whims. Without the safeguards of oaths.

This brings me to another point, that I wanted to bring up. Mayalaran. Sure, it seems to be a name. For Adolin. But Maya, let's keep calling her that for simplicity's sake, comes from a time before the Recreance. And by Dalinar speaking Dawnchant during his visions, we know, that that was the primary language back then. Maybe she was trying to tell Adolin something, but spoke Dawnchant, because she doesn't know modern Rosharan languages?

Edited March 25, 2018 by SLNC

[Calderis]

Dalinar learns languages by using adhesion to connect to the soul of an individual and gain the use if their knowledge of their native language. 

I think that by being bonded to Adolin's soul, even with the pseudo-bond of the gem, Maya would have access to the the language of whoever she was bonded to. 

Through the same mechanism, I also think that Adolin has an intuitive understanding of the things Maya says, though him being unaware of that and this being a new thing means most of the vagueness is his own doubts. 

Until we have reason to doubt it, it was presented to us as the reader as a name, and I'll continue to take it as such. 

[Guest]

I think, that it is quite a stretch, that the Polestone bond mechanically works like a traditional Nahel bond or Adhesion, not to mention the status of the dead spren, but that is just me...

The ambiguity of how it was presented in the text: "A... name?" is enough for me to doubt it, but once again, that is just me.

[Calderis]

I'm not saying that it works like either. I'm just saying that their souls are connected, which is exactly what Dalinar uses adhesion for spiritually to gain a language temporarily. 

On the topic of languages, spren speaking to humans in general is odd and requires some kind of innate translation effort, because spren have their own languages. 

Quote

IneptProfessional

Since you mention languages on Roshar, are there any languages that are completely unrelated to any other on the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

Our basic language families are:

Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Nathan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here.

Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these.

Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the dawnchant. Shin, parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different.

Iri: Iriali, Reshi, Purelake dialects, Riran, and some surrounding languages.

Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for.

That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy.

source

 

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah it's pretty clear that spren pick up language (maybe just the native language)  from their bonded person, imo, since it seems like the vast majority don't speak human languages to begin with.

[Darvys]

Since spren languages are brought up, the trip to Shadesmar always felt odd in that regard, since all the spren we meet happen to conveniently speak Alethi, unless while in that realm it's meanings that are directly exchanged somehow ? We know (i think?) spren see differently from humans, what about hearing ? Is there even air in the cogntive realm ? No clue, so i would appreciate some help with this. 

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Since spren languages are brought up, the trip to Shadesmar always felt odd in that regard, since all the spren we meet happen to conveniently speak Alethi, unless while in that realm it's meanings that are directly exchanged somehow ? We know (i think?) spren see differently from humans, what about hearing ? Is there even air in the cogntive realm ? No clue, so i would appreciate some help with this. 

I have spent more time thinking about this than is decent. 

I have no clue. Spren languages in themselves imply that language should still exist in the Cognitive Realm. The only thing I can think is that the age and nature of spren makes it so that over time they just learn all of them naturally anyway. 

[CrazyRioter]

Seems like not all of the Reachers spoke Alethi. I think it's mentioned that most of them didn't.

[Xtafa]

Personal opinion, she is alive in the way that someone in Coma is still alive. She is  [hopefully] slowly waking up.  

I would love to see two options. 

1 - Alodin shares part of his undamaged spiritweb to repair what she has had ripped out. This gap and sacrifice allows them to bond properly.

2 - [Preferred] Not even sure if possible, but I would like to see the above repair, BUT they don't bond as traditional, instead keeping the GEM bond, remaining summon-able as a blade but not becoming radiant, as its not something she would want to go through again.

Just a strong friendship/camaraderie

[CrazyRioter]

I believe very strongly that in order to revive her Adolin will need to from a Nahel bond with her, as she was damaged by the loss of the bond, and it will need to be replaced for her to heal.

[Angsos]

There has to be a bond forming because he can hear her and she can talk. Other possibility is much like Oathbringer(the sword) she is reviving but she can talk to him alone and he hears her because he carries her for long and talks to her.

[Stark]

On 3/21/2018 at 11:40 PM, Kaymyth said:

and it's certainly more probable than all of the molecules in my underclothes suddenly leaping three feet to the right of me, but it's difficult.

The Douglas Adams reference seems to signify, to me at least, that the tone of conversation here is attempting to shift back in a direction where I am comfortable posting.  Thanks for that, it gave me a smile.

 

I like a lot of the arguments presented here.  I'm not particularly invested in Adolin as a character.  I like him, for sure.  He can sometimes be the most likeable character on the page, but he is not the character I show up to read about.  I am interested in seeing how the whole Mayalaran situation shakes out because it will affect his character arc, yes, but more importantly what the implications would be for the rest of the world.  If we see him succeed, are we suddenly going to see every duelist in the world sitting and talking to their swords?  Trying to account for their feelings?  Trying to learn their names?

 

If he revives her, but does not get bonded, what then?  Will he be the sword whisperer, going around and reviving all the blades he can find?  Will he work with Jasnah and Shallan to make semi-regular trips to Shadesmar to begin negotiating with the spren, and trying to interact with Maya in person?  Will he champion an effort to liberate the spren cities?  If nothing else, with Dalinar able to supercharge Radiants, they have virtually limitless funds in spren cities.  They could totally get Dalinar's help to buy the chain in Celebrant.

 

There are so many different ways this could go.  All of them are intriguing.  Some are more probable than others.  I look forward to seeing how this shakes out, if it does.  And if it doesn't, I expect we will be given a reason for why not that will satisfy us.  Because that's what I've come to expect from Cosmere stories.  I'm just glad this thread has become amicable again.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Stark
arc, not ark

[Kaymyth]

4 hours ago, Stark said:

The Douglas Adams reference seems to signify, to me at least, that the tone of conversation here is attempting to shift back in a direction where I am comfortable posting.  Thanks for that, it gave me a smile.

I am happy that my ridiculousness has managed to bring a spark of joy to at least one person.

[Bort]

4 hours ago, Stark said:

I am interested in seeing how the whole Mayalaran situation shakes out because it will affect his character ark, yes, but more importantly what the implications would be for the rest of the world.  If we see him succeed, are we suddenly going to see every duelist in the world sitting and talking to their swords?  Trying to account for their feelings?  Trying to learn their names?

If he revives her, but does not get bonded, what then?  Will he be the sword whisperer, going around and reviving all the blades he can find?

This just gave me a great thought. What if you are right... sort of?

In OB we see a big shift in Alethkar's leadership. Dalinar in now King in Urithiru, Jasnah is Queen, and Adolin Highprince, with Shallan backing him up. The Sadeas Princedom may as well be gone - Torol and Amaran dead, and Ialai disappeared off to who-knows-where (but I suspect she is going to be Jasnah's biggest protagonist as Queen and will try to stir up rebellion among the other Highlords, but that's another point entirely). Not to mention that suddenly, a lot of the Kholins now have access to magical powers.

Now, along comes Adolin, master dueller and sword whisperer, and suddenly (more likely after long and arduous tasks), Maya is reborn. A miracle that suggests Adolin is more than meets the eye (he turns into Optimus Prime). I can see the Kholin Princedom (once things are settled with the Singers) becoming a place of learning, where Adolin teaches others about their Blades, the Radiant schools they are from, and encourage along the change of Alethi society from selfish idiots with too much power to something better.

All by taking advantage of those idiots and their selfish manner - they come to the Kholins for power, ad instead Jasnah, with Adolin being the frontman, experiments with massive social engineering.

I know this is just another mad theory, but I think it could be fun if it turned out that way.

The biggest flaw I see in all of this is that the people coming to Adolin aren't the ones that he should be focusing on to uphold both his personality, and Maya's Radiant oaths. Maybe instead his school could be for the poor and downtrodden in the hopes of guiding them into becoming Radiants.

[Stark]

29 minutes ago, Bort said:

along comes Adolin, master dueller and sword whisperer

You forgot Highprince of Fashion.  I mean, yeah, sure, he left high fashion behind in Kholinar.  But still.

 

And given how Wyndle was an artistic chair gardener, what if Maya had gardens of coats.  She and Adolin could consult on spren gardening patterns related to the fashion world...

Edited April 11, 2018 by Stark
more randomness

[CrazyRioter]

There could be a school that accepts people from all walks of life, on equal footing. That would be a great way to encourage social reform while giving the poor a chance for self-improvement.

[Stark]

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

There could be a school that accepts people from all walks of life, on equal footing.

I really like this idea.  Having the Alethi focus shift from Ardents training the young princelings to be better duelists, to instead having an Academy that assigns a blade to a group of students with the goal of rehabilitating it, and returning it to life.

 

They would of course need procurers to go through the world and acquire blades, or find the missing ones.  They could also use Elsecallers to access Shadesmar for spren outreach and communicate with the friends and families of the spren they are trying to revive.  This could be really cool.

 

But I don't see it in book four, other than the first few hints of an idea.  This would be, at its earliest, a book six event, for after the fifteen year gap.

[CrazyRioter]

You'd definitely want spren who knew the deadeye in question helping, if possible, to find people who'd be the best possible personality match.