Firerust

Adonalsium's Mandate

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Intent is actually a non canon term for the Shard’s power. Intent with a capital I is something else.  That being said, I don’t think Adonalsium had a specific intent. Due to the way the Shards all seem to have a facet of a personality, I think it was a whole being with all intents encompassed

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@Firerust, I have been thinking along the same lines. But to save yourself some undeserved criticism, you may want to change the Intent of Adonalsium to it's current mandate or drive. The shards seem to have a fixed intent, but Adonalsium would have had all the intents, with the tempering effect having them together would entail. I like the demonstrable points of Unity, and effective conglomeration of the shards. This fits well with the well documented cyclical nature of matter, energy, and investiture Brandon has encouraged throughout his books.

Further, a unification drive, seeming to counter Odium's apparent desire to further shatter the Investiture of the other shards, seems to promote a long standing agenda that some of the shards might still approve of, since they started the process. That fits well with some of the letter responses Wit has received. Others, perhaps wiser (read Frost) have noted the Touch of Adonasium's hand" on Roshar and other worlds, and perhaps trust more to the Fate or Destiny of the long cycle of Adonalsium, rather than interfering with what will happen (even if it means the destruction or imprisonment of current Shards). It gives real personality and depth to the various attitudes of the different shards. It also is the best explanation of Odium's shock at the making of the perpendicularity, and the best reason for him to state that Dalinar had Ascended.

Is Autonomy living out this spreading of investiture because of a certain philosophy that made Bavadin help shatter Adonalsium to begin with? Is Wit trying to reassemble, not just the powers, but the intents of Adonalsium, because he is familiar with this new drive, but wasn't before the shattering? And finally, how well this matches "The One" becoming All" and experiencing all things so it could understand all experience before becoming the One again? (That should sound familiar to you).

I like this train of though very much.

Edited by 1stBondsmith
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Seeing as uncontrolled investiture seeks to gain sentience, you could say that Adonalsium (being the source of all investiture) had this Intent.

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@Firerust and @1stBondsmith, this is really interesting!

At the Portland Oathbringer Signing I asked Brandon something similar to this, but slightly inverted. I didn't record my question because I wanted a picture with Brandon instead, so this isn't on Arcanum.

I asked him if Hoid was really the Girl Who Looked Up? And if this story of the stealing of the Light from behind the wall was the really the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium, and if the ones who broke God into shards did so to investigate the constituent components of Divinity?

He said that this was on the right track, but not quite right.

Your hypothesis that Adonalsium pre-figured the shattering in an effort to gain new experience is freaking amazing, and would fit with the answer that Brandon gave to my question. Tying this into the Iriali religion of the One is great, especially since they as a people are cosmere wanderers.

We know from some WoBs that Adonalsium could have shattered differently, maybe the way he shattered was precisely in line with the Intents of the Shatterers, and that each piece of himself was made separate to experience his own qualities in a purer form, so that when he comes back together he will be wiser.

Really like this theory a lot, I'm out of upvotes at the moment, but will give you both an upvote later.

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An excellent theory, take my upvote. I love how you were able to map out the instances of unity throughout the cosmere. Now major spoilers for Mistborn, specifically Secret History here so tread lightly. I just finished reading Secret History again and something I noticed was that when Kelsier briefly took up Preservation his mind was greatly expanded and he was able to try and counteract Ruin, at least to some extent. Comparing this to Dalinar's experience, yes he certainly gained power in the moment, enough to frighten Odium even but by the time he went to face the Thrill he seemed to be just a man again. Yet Odium still referred to it as Ascending, which is how both Kelsier, Vin, and Sazed were all refered to when they take up Preservation (and Ruin in Sazed's case). Kelsier (who was only a Cognitive Shadow at the time) kept it until Vin was ready and Vin kept it until she died and Sazed still holds both. I know this is rambling but what I am trying to get at is that Dalinar had direct interactions with three Shards, which is more than anyone we know of since the Shattering. I am agreeing with your theory in that Dalinar was so connected to these three Shards that he was able to briefly connect with the barest shadow of Adonalsium, just long enough to open the perpendicularity. Perhaps Ascension is more than just simply holding a Shard, Dalinar did it without actually holding one, but its touching the power of Adonalsium. But by the end of the book it seemed he had no unordinary power beyond that of a regular Bondsmith. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Edited by AC12
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20 hours ago, RShara said:

Intent is actually a non canon term for the Shard’s power. Intent with a capital I is something else.  That being said, I don’t think Adonalsium had a specific intent. Due to the way the Shards all seem to have a facet of a personality, I think it was a whole being with all intents encompassed

 

5 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

But to save yourself some undeserved criticism, you may want to change the Intent of Adonalsium to it's current mandate or drive. The shards seem to have a fixed intent, but Adonalsium would have had all the intents, with the tempering effect having them together would entail

Okay, you're right. Intent may not be the right definition, but I still insist that may have been what Adonalsium strove for. The theme of unity is quite prevalent throughout the series, and I'm sure it's connected to Adonalsium. Let's go with saying "mandate" instead, that sounds good enough.

 

5 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

And finally, how well this matches "The One" becoming All" and experiencing all things so it could understand all experience before becoming the One again? (That should sound familiar to you).

OH! OH, YES! How could I forget the Iriali? Yet another wonderful example, thank you. An entire race of people known to have historically traveled to many cosmere worlds, seeking experience to the point where they all become One once again. United into One. They desire experience and unity.

29 minutes ago, AC12 said:

An excellent theory, take my upvote. I love how you were able to map out the instances of unity throughout the cosmere.

Thank you very much! Also, I really like the point you made about Dalinar's interaction with the most Shards. I think you might be onto something as well.

2 hours ago, Auger said:

Seeing as uncontrolled investiture seeks to gain sentience, you could say that Adonalsium (being the source of all investiture) had this Intent.

I'm a bit confused by what you're saying... I assumed Adonalsium was already a sentient being. Do you mean you think the drive to have Unity has prompted some Investiture to become sentient?

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

We know from some WoBs that Adonalsium could have shattered differently, maybe the way he shattered was precisely in line with the Intents of the Shatterers, and that each piece of himself was made separate to experience his own qualities in a purer form, so that when he comes back together he will be wiser.

*blink blink* Whoa. Now there's a thought. I mean, I question its likelihood, but it's still a very interesting concept. Good thinking.

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6 minutes ago, Firerust said:

 

Okay, you're right. Intent may not be the right definition, but I still insist that may have been what Adonalsium strove for. The theme of unity is quite prevalent throughout the series, and I'm sure it's connected to Adonalsium. Let's go with saying "mandate" instead, that sounds good enough.

 

OH! OH, YES! How could I forget the Iriali? Yet another wonderful example, thank you. An entire race of people known to have historically traveled to many cosmere worlds, seeking experience to the point where they all become One once again. United into One. They desire experience and unity.

Thank you very much! Also, I really like the point you made about Dalinar's interaction with the most Shards. I think you might be onto something as well.

I'm a bit confused by what you're saying... I assumed Adonalsium was already a sentient being. Do you mean you think the drive to have Unity has prompted some Investiture to become sentient?

*blink blink* Whoa. Now there's a thought. I mean, I question its likelihood, but it's still a very interesting concept. Good thinking.

It's fine to use intent.  We all do :) Just understand that it's different than Intent, which Brandon uses for specific purposes.

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3 minutes ago, RShara said:

It's fine to use intent.  We all do :) Just understand that it's different than Intent, which Brandon uses for specific purposes.

Gotcha. ;)

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That is really interesting. if you think about it, Dalinar doesn't say "I am Honor" or "I am the Stormfather" he says "I am Unity" unity with a capital U. Rayse's response fits too, him being one of the people who shattered Adonalsium. saying "We killed you!" I wonder though if Adonalsium still had the aspects of all the shards, and was held by a being (similar to Sazed holding Ruin and Preservation) but something more powerful that knew how to keep them under control.

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One issue with the idea of Adonalsium having an intent and therefore presumably being some sort of super-shard is that the splintered normal shards have not shown any characteristics of following the same behaviour as when the current shards were created in the shattering (i.e. taking up distinct facets of the parent shard's intent), they by and large just emulate the parent (e.g. Stormfather).

If Adonalsium had an intent, that implies that it is a piece of a yet greater power broken down into "super-shards", which would mean that the process - larger shard splintered into various splinters with distinct intents related to the parent - should in theory continue down to the splinters we have observed on various worlds, but that has not thus far been demonstrated.

Edited by Kk-
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13 hours ago, AC12 said:

But by the end of the book it seemed he had no unordinary power beyond that of a regular Bondsmith.

The book sorta glosses over it a bit, but it does actually say at the end of oathbringer that Dalinar recharges all the spheres again so that Kaladin can go rescue the bridgemen who escaped Kolinar. The ability for Dalinar to draw forth Stormlight is directly connected to the whole Unity thing, that isn't a normal Bondsmith ability (hence the Stormfather being so surprised). To do that he has to be drawing power directly from the Spiritual Realm. So I'd say that actually he seems to have kept his abilities at the end of the book.

(There's also the whole line about 'seeing a second light somewhere in the distance', which I personally think is tied to either Adononalsium directly, or at least is to do with the fact that he is now connected to the Spiritual Realm)

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4 hours ago, Arkboy said:

The book sorta glosses over it a bit, but it does actually say at the end of oathbringer that Dalinar recharges all the spheres again so that Kaladin can go rescue the bridgemen who escaped Kolinar

So I went back and looked at it and you are correct, good catch. Still it is curious that Dalinar Ascended without actually holding one of the Shards, and while he does have some very impressive new abilities, they aren't on quite the same level as the other examples of Ascension that we have seen. 

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20 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine, @Firerust

 

Your hypothesis that Adonalsium pre-figured the shattering in an effort to gain new experience is freaking amazing, and would fit with the answer that Brandon gave to my question. Tying this into the Iriali religion of the One is great, especially since they as a people are cosmere wanderers.

We know from some WoBs that Adonalsium could have shattered differently, maybe the way he shattered was precisely in line with the Intents of the Shatterers, and that each piece of himself was made separate to experience his own qualities in a purer form, so that when he comes back together he will be wiser.

 

Excellent thoughts guys...This speaks to the part of me that can't stop thinking, Adonalsium must have had a plan, right?! We have seen Shard after Shard be really, really good at making long-term plans and predicting/manipulating events. Like really good ;) .  But not Adonalsium? Didn't see it coming? Was caught completely off-guard by 16 beings he created? For all the power and foresight that each Shard has shown so far, wouldn't Adonalsium's be faaaarrrr greater? As in about 16x's greater? But Adonalsium still "lost"? I've always had a hard time with the idea that a group of non-gods could figure out how to kill the ultimate god without that god seeing it coming from a billion miles away and preparing for it...I have to imagine its like when my baby tries to trick me:D.  Whether Adonalsium wanted to be Shattered(for whatever his godly reasons were) and guided this group to do it, or simply saw the Shattering coming and let it happen according to how he wanted it to, I couldn't know...But I find it hard to accept that he was Shattered without seeing it coming, or saw it coming but had no way to stop it.

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So Brandon has RAFO'd the number of vessels for Adonalsium. Perhaps if what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine and @Firerust are saying is on the right track, perhaps this Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of vessels of Adonalsium , paralleling real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in a cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That each Adonalsium goes and exists, building his Cosmere and striving to be the perfect form of whatever god would consider perfect. Adonalsium goes until something triggers his willful destruction..Say until his creations advance enough to be able to destroy him, or maybe until he cannot improve himself anymore so he must allow the Shattering because it's something like

21 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

 

 

We know from some WoBs that Adonalsium could have shattered differently, maybe the way he shattered was precisely in line with the Intents of the Shatterers, and that each piece of himself was made separate to experience his own qualities in a purer form, so that when he comes back together he will be wiser.

 

and that he gets to a point in godly evolution in which he has to Shatter in order to reform as a better Adonalsium. Perhaps its such that its actually impossible for Adonalsium to not reform. Either because of some inherent part of the power that makes up the Shards will eventually force the powers to manipulate themselves to reform, regardless of the what the individual Shard Vessels want..ie..Adonalsium must always exist, so eventually it will exist again. Or, the omnipotence and omniscience of Adonalsium is such that it would be impossible for the current Shardholders to escape his long term plan for the eventual reformation and Ascension of the next Vessel of Adonalsium.

Or, even more interesting(to me anyway) would be if the reformation of Adonalsium and the continuation of the the cycle was not guaranteed. There is no inherent force or plan guiding the Shards back together, they have to fight. I remember Perrin Aybara telling me that metal cannot be shaped without blows from the hammer;) Perhaps every cycle is a new contest where the winner is a new, better Adonalsium and consequentially a better cosmere, and yet another tiny, infinite step towards a perfect cosmere.  A contest of whether the best aspects of god can overcome the worst. Or whether this will be the time that the worst of god reigns, after their destruction of the rest.

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4 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

perhaps this Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of vessels of Adonalsium , paralleling real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in a cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That each Adonalsium goes and exists, building his Cosmere and striving to be the perfect form of whatever god would consider perfect. Adonalsium goes until something triggers his willful destruction

Exactly! Change and Unity in perpetual oscillation so that:

5 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

every cycle is a new contest where the winner is a new, better Adonalsium and consequentially a better cosmere, and yet another tiny, infinite step towards a perfect cosmere.  A contest of whether the best aspects of god can overcome the worst. Or whether this will be the time that the worst of god reigns, after their destruction of the rest.

make infinitesimal steps towards a greater perfection! If no one objects I think this theory is rad, and it needs a suitably awesome name. I would suggest that we call this theory "The Integral of Perfection through Unity Theory" where Adonalsium's current state is the sum of all states approaching infinity.

I do like how there is still agency in your system @NotBurtReynolds, and that it's not a forgone conclusion that this new heightened perfection can be obtained and that Adonalsium will be reformed. I also really like how this process of self-perfection is necessarily one of Creative Destruction. This is a fusion of the perpetual change world view of Heraclitus with the Unitary being principle of Oneness of Parmenides, in a constant evolving osciallation between states. Freaking awesome!

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15 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Exactly! Change and Unity in perpetual oscillation so that:

make infinitesimal steps towards a greater perfection! If no one objects I think this theory is rad, and it needs a suitably awesome name. I would suggest that we call this theory "The Integral of Perfection through Unity Theory" where Adonalsium's current state is the sum of all states approaching infinity.

I do like how there is still agency in your system @NotBurtReynolds, and that it's not a forgone conclusion that this new heightened perfection can be obtained and that Adonalsium will be reformed. I also really like how this process of self-perfection is necessarily one of Creative Destruction. This is a fusion of the perpetual change world view of Heraclitus with the Unitary being principle of Oneness of Parmenides, in a constant evolving osciallation between states. Freaking awesome!

These theory words are accepted! Excellent work. If you don’t mind me hijacking the title I was going to write up something a little more fleshed out, once my trickster baby goes to bed ;) 

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1 minute ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

These theory words are accepted! Excellent work. If you don’t mind me hijacking the title I was going to write up something a little more fleshed out, once my trickster baby goes to bed ;) 

You have my blessing on both counts, good luck with the wee one.

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Very interesting theory. Don't have a whole lot to add (most has been said already) but I am currently working on an own theory in order to hopefully decude the Shards from that in a logical way, and I think this theory and mine would fit together pretty well. :)

...Now I just need to take the time to actually think about the different Intents that would form from the pattern I established.

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I'm only stopping by a moment. I love everything said here! All these theories are great! I do have one bit to add.

Quote

CosmereQuestioner
The background to my question is this:

It was once stated by Mr Sanderson that "Magic in the cosmere needs a guiding force.  If it doesn't have one, the magic itself will gain sentience."  We also have that things like Nightblood that gained sentience because of crazy amounts of investiture.

My question then is:

"Is the reason that investiture has this tendency to lead to sentience caused by the fact that pre-Shattering Adonalsium had a goal/purpose/intent of bringing sentience to his universe."

(I guess this is in a way a 2 part question, because it assumes that Adonalsium actually HAD the intent of bringing sentience to his cosmere)

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, this is part of the reason.  Good question!

So your statements got me thinking and I did a little digging through Arcanum and found this gem. So Adonalsium at least had an intent to bring sentience to life which implies in turn that it itself had some sort of sentience, no matter how low, it must have been at least marginally aware of things around itself.

Edited by Shallan's Ward
Correcting myself
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Adonalsium almost certainly had sapience.  That much power, sapience would be really fast.  And it created planets and ecologies.  Also, Brandon's said that Adonalsium Shattered because it was killed, implying it had a sort of life.

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I love all of the theories posted very, very much, but an interesting few counter points that should be discussed:

if Harmony already has unity’s intent then can it still be Adonalsium’s intent?

could Dalinar have stated he was Unity because that is his interpretation of Honor’s intent (due to Honor pushing him to unite throughout the books)?

since it has been stated that the secondary intent inherited by every shard is to create, wouldn’t that be a big part of Adonalsium’s intent as well? (Along with sapience)

Edited by TheHeadHancho
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Would Harmony not be closer to "restrained change" though, than unity? He doesn't necessarily try to bring all together, even though he is a combined Shard. Rather, I would argue he looks for change but in a restrained manner. I would also argue that's why it's hard for him to act; on one hand he attempts to change things, but on the other hand he is restrained and has to make absolutely sure he's changing the right way before he can do it.

As for Dalinar, I just don't think we know enough about it. However, has he not heard "Unite them" outside of his visions a few times? Honor couldn't have done that, he's been dead for a long time.

And creating certainly seems to have been a big part of what Adonalsium was doing.

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On 1/26/2018 at 7:41 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

So Brandon has RAFO'd the number of vessels for Adonalsium. Perhaps if what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine and @Firerust are saying is on the right track, perhaps this Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of vessels of Adonalsium , paralleling real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in a cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That each Adonalsium goes and exists, building his Cosmere and striving to be the perfect form of whatever god would consider perfect. Adonalsium goes until something triggers his willful destruction..Say until his creations advance enough to be able to destroy him, or maybe until he cannot improve himself anymore so he must allow the Shattering because it's something like

and that he gets to a point in godly evolution in which he has to Shatter in order to reform as a better Adonalsium. Perhaps its such that its actually impossible for Adonalsium to not reform. Either because of some inherent part of the power that makes up the Shards will eventually force the powers to manipulate themselves to reform, regardless of the what the individual Shard Vessels want..ie..Adonalsium must always exist, so eventually it will exist again. Or, the omnipotence and omniscience of Adonalsium is such that it would be impossible for the current Shardholders to escape his long term plan for the eventual reformation and Ascension of the next Vessel of Adonalsium.

Or, even more interesting(to me anyway) would be if the reformation of Adonalsium and the continuation of the the cycle was not guaranteed. There is no inherent force or plan guiding the Shards back together, they have to fight. I remember Perrin Aybara telling me that metal cannot be shaped without blows from the hammer;) Perhaps every cycle is a new contest where the winner is a new, better Adonalsium and consequentially a better cosmere, and yet another tiny, infinite step towards a perfect cosmere.  A contest of whether the best aspects of god can overcome the worst. Or whether this will be the time that the worst of god reigns, after their destruction of the rest.

The possibility that Adonalsium engineered his own shattering strongly reminds me of the plots of two different Graphic Novels. Both of these have to do with an unchangeable being trying to experience something new.

Heavy spoilers for the overarching plot of The Sandman (by Neil Gaiman)

Spoiler

In The Sandman the main character Dream is the anthropomorphic personification of dreams, who has dominion over sleep and nightmares. At the start of the series he is rather haughty and often cruel. Because of a number of experiences he has, this eventually starts to soften, but the challenge of changing old ways is an enormous one for a eternal being who has been set in his ways for billions of years. Eventually, he engineers his own death, because his eventual rebirth offers the opportunity to more fully alter his own personality.

Heavy spoilers for the overarching plot of Lucifer (by Mike Carey)

Spoiler

In Lucifer, we see Lucifer having an extended conflict with God, which eventually leads to an assault on Heaven. We eventually learn that everything starting from the creation of the Earth up to the rebellion and the eventual assault on Heaven by Lucifer, was all foreseen and engineered by an all-knowing God. The purpose of this was to create a single point in time and space in which even God would not know what Lucifer would say and do. All this so God could experience uncertainty and surprise for the first time.

Adonalsium's shattering being a variation on this theme would be really cool imho.

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12 hours ago, TheHeadHancho said:

if Harmony already has unity’s intent then can it still be Adonalsium’s intent?

Like @Leyrann said, I don't think Harmony has the intent of Unity, it's more like stasis through the fusion and interplay of Opposites or even the intent of Balance, kind of like the Dao. Because they are so functional opposite the two forces are constantly pushing against each other and constantly being restrained by the other. Harmony probably wears a headband with the Yin Yang symbol on it.

4 hours ago, StijnArnauts said:

The possibility that Adonalsium engineered his own shattering strongly reminds me of the plots of two different Graphic Novels. Both of these have to do with an unchangeable being trying to experience something new.

Very cool examples @StijnArnauts, but I think Adonalsium is a slightly different god then as viewed in the Lucifer graphic novel. I think that he at least was not the Deterministic God of the Calvinists that setup a Mechanically rigid predeterministic path for creation to inevitably follow, I think he was a God that left a lot to individual agency. The fact that his power could be picked up by mortal vessels and the fact that Hoid could choose not to pick up a shard of divinity heavily implies that he was god that was possibly Omnipotent but not necessarily Omniscient and that valued Agency in his creations. At the same time what's the fun in being a god if you know everything that is going to happen before it happens, sure you've created a pretty cool wind up toy, but eons later it's still moving in the way you set it up. Boredom for Divinity along the timescale of the Infinite becomes a real Issue. If you can live forever, you might as well start trying to find Ale Spren and Captivity spren.

EDITED (had to add a bit)

There's a very cool theory that Adonalsium started out as just thought. This has echoes in how undirected investiture develops sapience, as if the drive to Become is a directive from the god Beyond that influenced even Adonalsium. Pretty awesome to think about how Adonalsium as a cosmic scale coporeal body, composed of matter, energy and star dust slowly developed sentience and with this developed sentient also felt the desire to create so as to better understand himself. This also has echoes in the reason that the spren want to form bonds, they gain access to more experience and through this experience a better chance to change, grow and know themselves. It's like there are two prime directives from the god beyond that gives a teleological purpose to all spiritual energy, Be and Know Thyself.

So if Adonalsium was really the cosmic Logos of the small dwarf galaxy that is the Cosmere, he is the living embodiement of the Iriali One. All the matter and energy in the Cosmere is his corporeal body, and shattering his mind, dividing it and allowing each piece to express it's unalloyed drive is an amazing journey of cosmic self discovery. Rad Rad and Rad.

 

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Added a bit about Adonalsium as the Cosmic Logos
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