Argent Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Shhh, it's okay, the whole self-respect thing is gone. No more talking about it. Ignore it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 .... I really didn't mean to turn this to some philosophical discussion, it was just one of the reasons I don't ship them, though you give me some good point I've missed. But I'm still shipping Jasadin nonetheless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeatherWriter Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Shhh, it's okay, the whole self-respect thing is gone. No more talking about it. Ignore it. Agreed. This discussion is going bad places and we should call it off. If it absolutely must continue, take it to private chat, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeJay Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) Thematically Kaladin and Shallan's journeys have reflected each other. They are both avoiding family issues (Kal doesn't want to confront his parents after his little brother's death, Shallan's family is a total mess), they both traveled to the Shattered Plains in the same slave caravan, they interact with the same minor characters, ect. Normally this wouldn't mean much, but symmetry is important in Roshar. Look at the names and how the plateaus are laid out. On a humorous note, Shallan and Adolin's kids would look like Yugi Moto. This should not be allowed. Edited March 8, 2014 by AyeJay 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) I really didn't mean to turn this to some philosophical discussion, it was just one of the reasons I don't ship them, though you give me some good point I've missed. But I'm still shipping Jasadin nonetheless I just enjoy overanalyzing books a LOT. Jasadin is a pretty fascinating ship too (nobody said all the ships I enjoy have to work together, haha). Shhh, it's okay, the whole self-respect thing is gone. No more talking about it. Ignore it. Sorry, the vast majority of my post was written before you asked people to drop it; I'm just slow to post because I revise everything I say multiple times. I also will drop it now. Edited March 8, 2014 by Jess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FeatherWriter Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Thanks guys. I know, we have to be careful over shipping discussions. They take a certain level of extra work to stay civil and respectful than some of the other ones and it means a lot that we are attempting to do so. (I'd argue that the increased risk is worth it, as they're also some of the most fun discussions in my opinion, but they require a level of maturity and mutual respect from participants that, if lacking, can go bad very quickly.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Can I just add to the chorus, love triangles are the worst? Yes, they can be done less badly or less cliched than others have done, but why? And yes, all the signs are pointed to some sort of romantic tension between the 3. I think talk of "X belongs with Y, because they're a better match" is pure speculation at this point. They're all 3 (leaving Renarin out at the moment, but he fits, too) very immature, prejudiced people who are at the end of WoR just starting to grow up. It's basically asking which college freshmen will be the most compatible couples. They and we won't even know who they're going to end up being 5 books from now, or even if they're alive. I think there's enough growth potential for either pairing to end up working well, or either pairing to fail spectacularly. With that being said, in a book series where generational sins and history repeating itself are thematically present in everything, it's worth examining both the relationships of Shallan's, Kaladin's, and Adolin's parents as well as all 3's previous relationships in the books. Is Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar repeating itself with a twist on parentage, or is the trope being subverted in the next generation? Is Kaladin (the more outwardly broody, rage-filled, melancholy type) more like the I Married My Father trap to Shallan or is Adolin (who may be developing his own inner demons)? Will Adolin ever get over his philandering ways? Will Kal ever stop thinking of women as possessions? I don't buy the "Kaladin and Shallan have such a special relationship!" angle any more than I buy the "Shallan and Adolin have much more physical chemistry!" angle. Shallan could grow to be attracted to Kaladin as much or more. And really, the only reason that Shallan hasn't opened up similarly to Adolin is because she felt compelled by her lack of confidence and social conventions to present a front to Adolin. Which have all been conveniently removed by Shallan becoming a Radiant. Speaking of which, I notice a lot of people are saying "there's no need for the Kholins and Shallan to pursue a beneficial marriage angle now that they found Urithru". They're missing that yeah, in an age of Feudalism and an emerging power structure of mega-powerful Knights Radiant, there are loads of political benefits to tying as many family knots as possible between the KR and the "good guy" political Kholin dynasty, for both sides. Jasnah already knew that, and Navani gets it right away. I really, really hope BS is just using all this to set up a subversion of the Love Triangle trope. I can burn a prayer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I think talk of "X belongs with Y, because they're a better match" is pure speculation at this point. ... With that being said, in a book series where generational sins and history repeating itself are thematically present in everything ... I don't buy the "Kaladin and Shallan have such a special relationship!" angle any more than I buy the "Shallan and Adolin have much more physical chemistry!" angle. Shallan could grow to be attracted to Kaladin as much or more. And really, the only reason that Shallan hasn't opened up similarly to Adolin is because she felt compelled by her lack of confidence and social conventions to present a front to Adolin. Which have all been conveniently removed by Shallan becoming a Radiant. Speaking of which, I notice a lot of people are saying "there's no need for the Kholins and Shallan to pursue a beneficial marriage angle now that they found Urithru". They're missing that yeah, in an age of Feudalism and an emerging power structure of mega-powerful Knights Radiant, there are loads of political benefits to tying as many family knots as possible between the KR and the "good guy" political Kholin dynasty, for both sides. Jasnah already knew that, and Navani gets it right away. Well, naturally this is all speculation since it's dependent on sources that aren't written yet. I'd suggest the question is not 'what is going to happen' so much as 'which outcome would require the least amount of _additional_ explanation'. My personal assertion is that the relationship between Kaladin and Shallan, at this point, is the one that would require the most plot/character development to explain away. Kaladin and Shallan at this point do have a special relationship in the sense that their relationship to each other is unique from each of their perspectives. This is clear in the narrative. Whether or not Kaladin is the only one Shallan will confide in throughout the series is of course unknown, but we know for sure, right now, that he is the only that fits that description. I personally don't think the only reason Shallan hid things from Adolin is socio-political (I doubt Adolin was in a state to be able to understand Shallan's history), but that's opinion. What's demonstrated in the narrative however is that Kaladin knows more about Shallan than any other character in the book barring Shallan herself and Pattern, and likewise Shallan knows more about Kaladin than anyone besides Syl and Kaladin himself. It specifically mentions at least from Kaladin's perspective that he talks about things that he's never told anyone about with Shallan. We have no reason to think Shallan has ever talked about her family to anyone outside of her family (always excluding their sprens, of course), and we see that she hides her work with Jasnah from her family. She reveals all of that to Kaladin. Conversely, we see multiple instances where she lies about what's she's doing/has been doing with Adolin without any discomfort whatsoever (and it's not just Adolin; she has no compunctions about deceiving people in general - the real key here is that her interaction with Adolin is not really different from her interaction with the average joe). Likewise, it's clear in the narrative that both are attracted to each other by the end of the book. This is demonstrated in the scene where the armies are forming up for the final push into the Shattered Plains if the chasm scene was not explicit enough. Kaladin acknowledges to himself of his attraction to Shallan, and Shallan blanks out during a conversation with Adolin while trying to internally describe why she finds Kaladin interesting. Both of those points appear to be established bits of canon; if there's evidence against them in the narrative, it is unclear to me. That said, we can of course endless speculate about what will happen in the future; there's nothing that says their special relationship continues into the future. But as mentioned at the beginning, their relationship is the one that requires the most work to undo at this point. Regarding the generational themes, I'm not really sure I see it, at least as an overarching theme of the series. I don't know that I agree that that's the way the relationships need to analyzed. Regarding the marriage alliance - the point is that there's really no advantage from Shallan's perspective for the union. At the beginning the advantage is shaded to be mostly for Shallan's benefit (Jasnah being the only one with the information to consider the Radiant angle). By the end of the book, she doesn't really need a marriage alliance; her family is (presumably) secured and she has no need of the position, power or wealth the marriage would bring. I personally think Adolin and Shallan's relationship is superficial enough that there really isn't a triangle at this point; again, things can change, but as it stands I can't see that relationship developing without serious character development (probably on Adolin's part). 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Adolin and Shallan seem superficial to us, but they're such a perfect Vorin couple. Adolin can't even read glyphs, and spends all his time hitting people with things. And Shallan's art and scholarship are quickly becoming famous. Shallan is sincerely Vorin, and as long as she stays that way, I expect this is what she wants. They're also a perfect celebrity couple, because Adolin is famous and Shallan will be soon. They'll have huge fan clubs together. And they're both murderers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero Vance Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I think that Adolin and Shallan make for a much more mature, healthy relationship between two people who clearly get along with each other and like each other's company without the need to yell at each other. Adolin can learn much from Shallan's intelligence and bravery, just as she can learn much about his honor, optimism and another kind of bravery. Together, they can grow as human beings. However Kaladin and Shallan are much funnier to read about, so I'm sticking with that one. Speaking of which, are there any times that Shallan thinks about Kaladin in a positive light? I remember Kaladin thinking a lot about her, but not so much the other way around. In all honesty though, I hope there isn't a love triangle because Kaladin is pretty much Adolin's first friend since he realizes halfway through the book that he doesn't have any real friends outside of people that sort of know him. That, and Kaladin is much on the same boat as far as friends go. His most trusted friend sort of tried to kill the king. And him. And he mentions how his bridge four friends sort of worship him instead of being friends with him, save for Rock. Would suck if they lost their "best friend by default" because of this. I mean it would be realistic and I'm not implying it would be bad writing, just...I hope it doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elena Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Adolin and Shallan seem superficial to us, but they're such a perfect Vorin couple. Adolin can't even read glyphs, and spends all his time hitting people with things. And Shallan's art and scholarship are quickly becoming famous. Shallan is sincerely Vorin, and as long as she stays that way, I expect this is what she wants. They're also a perfect celebrity couple, because Adolin is famous and Shallan will be soon. They'll have huge fan clubs together. And they're both murderers! I am now picturing Adolin and Shallan as Roshar's own Brangelina 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Adolin and Shallan seem superficial to us, but they're such a perfect Vorin couple. Adolin can't even read glyphs, and spends all his time hitting people with things. And Shallan's art and scholarship are quickly becoming famous. Shallan is sincerely Vorin, and as long as she stays that way, I expect this is what she wants.They're also a perfect celebrity couple, because Adolin is famous and Shallan will be soon. They'll have huge fan clubs together. And they're both murderers! That really doesn't make me any more inclined to approve of the ship. Hooray, we uphold gender stereotypes? I know you didn't mean it like that, but still. I think that Adolin and Shallan make for a much more mature, healthy relationship between two people who clearly get along with each other and like each other's company without the need to yell at each other. Adolin can learn much from Shallan's intelligence and bravery, just as she can learn much about his honor, optimism and another kind of bravery. Together, they can grow as human beings. However Kaladin and Shallan are much funnier to read about, so I'm sticking with that one. Speaking of which, are there any times that Shallan thinks about Kaladin in a positive light? I remember Kaladin thinking a lot about her, but not so much the other way around. In all honesty though, I hope there isn't a love triangle because Kaladin is pretty much Adolin's first friend since he realizes halfway through the book that he doesn't have any real friends outside of people that sort of know him. That, and Kaladin is much on the same boat as far as friends go. His most trusted friend sort of tried to kill the king. And him. And he mentions how his bridge four friends sort of worship him instead of being friends with him, save for Rock. Would suck if they lost their "best friend by default" because of this. I mean it would be realistic and I'm not implying it would be bad writing, just...I hope it doesn't happen. Yes, actually. Right at the beginning of one of the chapters, she goes on a long internal monologue about how wonderful Kaladin's gaze is for a few paragraphs, completely ignoring what Adolin is saying to her at the time. Edited March 9, 2014 by PorridgeBrick 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero Vance Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Yes, actually. Right at the beginning of one of the chapters, she goes on a long internal monologue about how wonderful Kaladin's gaze is for a few paragraphs and completely ignoring what Adolin is saying to her at the time. Thank you, I think I completely missed that! Must have been one of the parts I read at 5 in the morning haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Speaking of which, are there any times that Shallan thinks about Kaladin in a positive light? I remember Kaladin thinking a lot about her, but not so much the other way around. There are minor references from her POV post-Chasm scene, most of which can be read ambiguously...and then there's _this_: He grinned, Shardplate helm hanging from his saddle so as to not mess up his hair. She waited for him to add a quip to hers, but he didn’t. That was all right. She liked Adolin as he was. He was kind , noble, and genuine. It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or . . . or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there. Passionate, with an intense, smoldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used, because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord. Instead, the secure, stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were— or what you did— you could not hurt him. Could not change him. He was. Like the wind and rocks were. Shallan completely missed what Adolin said next. She blushed. “What was that?” 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadewolf Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Ok I really hate the reasoning against shallan/adolin because she's lieing to the guy about what she's doing. I don't think "Gee, I'm trying to get into the good graces of the people that killed your Aunt, by spying on you're allies using magical powers, but I'm doing so to spy on them, so don't be suspicious" would be a really good thing to bring up, when you have no body that can vouch for who you are. Regardless oh who you ship, Shallan will probably hide her relationship to the ghost bloods for awhile. Edited March 9, 2014 by shadewolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ok I really hate the reasoning against shallan/adolin because she's lieing to the guy about what she's doing. I don't think "Gee, I'm trying to get into the good graces of the people that killed your Aunt, by spying on you're allies using magical powers, so don't be suspicious" would be a really good thing to bring up, when you have no body that can vouch for who you are. Regardless oh who you ship, Shallan will probably hide her relationship to the ghost bloods for awhile. The point isn't really that she's lying/misrepresenting herself to Adolin (after all, she does that to everyone), it's that...she does that to everyone. Except Kaladin. Or at least considerably less so with Kaladin. One of these things are not like the others... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Kaladin is Dalinar's bodyguard. He has just as much reason, if not more, to report what Shallan says to the Kholins as Adolin does. So telling Kaladin rather than Adolin can only be for emotional reasons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Kaladin is Dalinar's bodyguard. He has just as much reason, if not more, to report what Shallan says to the Kholins as Adolin does. So telling Kaladin rather than Adolin can only be for emotional reasons. note: anyone know what the deal is with that error message when you hit quote? I think this is an important point in the Kaladin vs Adolin debate. Her reasons for not telling Adolin about her past and letting him through her usual facade to her more 'real' persona should more or less be the same in relation to telling these things to Kaladin. I fully agree that the reasons for her sharing more of herself with Kaladin than she has ever shared with anyone else, especially someone in Kaladin's position. I mean he could easily use this information against her for any number of nefarious deeds. She wouldn't have shared if she didn't have emotional investment in Kaladin and also believe he could be trusted not to share this with anyone else. I think at this point she is simply not as emotionally invested in Adolin as she is in Kaladin. Seloun says this better than I could hope to: "What's demonstrated in the narrative however is that Kaladin knows more about Shallan than any other character in the book barring Shallan herself and Pattern, and likewise Shallan knows more about Kaladin than anyone besides Syl and Kaladin himself.". The fact they already have that level of trust and acceptance of each other after having relatively little previous interaction (outside the chasm) is perhaps the biggest point in favour of their relationship outlasting Shallan & Adolin's by miles. Kaladin didn't even share his story of slavery with bridge 4, his best friends and companions through some of the worst times in his life. He just doesn't feel comfortable sharing his past with them, yet he so readily shares it with Shallan. Likewise for Shallan other than Jasnah. who doesn't know more about Shallan's other than she killed her father, he was abusive and that he was allied with the ghostbloods. Shallan has told literally noone about her true past, not even to herself for most of the book!. Also Seloun's last post said "One of these things is not like that other". That 'thing' is that she views Kaladin in completely differently than she views quite literally everyone else including Adolin and excluding Jasnah (probably... she was 'dead' for most of the book so we didn't really get to see thier budding friendship). @Seloun: I both love and hate you, I love you becuase you are making all the points i want to make. I hate you becuase you are making them better than I could hope to and I am petty like that. Edited March 9, 2014 by Paradox 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FollowYourMuse Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Both Adolin and Shallan are shallow and imature, so I do not see an issue there. Kadolin was my fave relationship in this book. It was perfect. And I couldn't have asked for a better progression or development of their interactions. Bickery rivals to bickery best friends was absolutely stunning and I adored every moment of it. Seriously, those of you listening to Splintercast be prepared to hear me cackle madly over everything Kaladin and Adolin do with each other because it was spot on and hilarious and wonderful. And the idea of them on opposite sides of a love triangle with Shallan in the middle is just... euuuuuuuugh no I have to agree here .... The growing friendship and respect between Kaladin and Adolin was great and real ... I think I would find it the best if Shallan didn't end up with either of them if it would harm this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Both Adolin and Shallan are shallow and imature, so I do not see an issue there. I think that 2 shallow and immature people in a relationship would basically doom it from the start. How many do you know who dated in highschool, that you would describe as shallow and immature, are still in that same relationship. I can tell you my observations from my highschool in New Zealand. None, not a single one of those shallow and or immature people are still in a relationship together. I quite literally knew everybody in my year level's names and thier relationship status (there were like 200 of us) then and now. I know this doesn't mean much by itself but I think that you would find a similar, but probably not as extreme, trend across most of the late teens/early 20's in the world. That trend is that 2 immature people do not good, lasting and healthy relationships. especially with each other. Its also worth pointing out that I don't find Shallan shallow at all. But I find that her relationship with Adolin is most certainly Shallow. Edited March 9, 2014 by Paradox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Also Seloun's last post said "One of these things is not like that other". That 'thing' is that she views Kaladin in completely differently than she views quite literally everyone else including Adolin and excluding Jasnah (probably... she was 'dead' for most of the book so we didn't really get to see thier budding friendship). @Seloun: I both love and hate you, I love you becuase you are making all the points i want to make. I hate you becuase you are making them better than I could hope to and I am petty like that. Appreciate the compliment! I'd personally say that Shallan's relationship with Kaladin is different even in respect to Jasnah's. As far as we are aware, Shallan hasn't gone into details about the problems her family is having (she focuses on the externalities - the Ghostblood involvement, the Soulcaster, but as far as we know, not about their internal problems). She almost certainly has not told Jasnah about killing her father. But probably the best argument is that Jasnah tells Shallan very, very little! She doesn't know much about Jasnah at all. On a side tangent, given the discussion about Jasnah and Shallan, I thought it was telling in WoK what (and how) Jasnah asks of Shallan near the end of the book: “You will never lie to me again,” Jasnah said, raising a finger. “And you will never steal from me, or anyone, again.” The interesting note is that she qualifies the latter with 'me, or anyone', but only herself for the former. The implication is of course Shallan is free to lie to other people. I'd wondered at the time if that was coincidence, but after WoR, I imagine not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 You are right about her not telling Jasnah about killing her father. but her first truth in WoK is saying that she killed her father. She says this under her breath in the presence of Jasnah when proving she can go to shadesmar. I wouldn't be suprised if either Jasnah heard it or her spren did and reported it to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elena Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 You are right about her not telling Jasnah about killing her father. but her first truth in WoK is saying that she killed her father. She says this under her breath in the presence of Jasnah when proving she can go to shadesmar. I wouldn't be suprised if either Jasnah heard it or her spren did and reported it to her. But she *still* didn't tell her. The point here is trust, how Shallan didn't willing told Jasnah/Adolin about her father's death It doesn't matter if Jasnah knows she killed her father, the point still remains that there was only one person she trusted enough to tell the truth, and that person is Kaladin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I know I know. I was just making the point that Jasnah probably knows already as a bit of a tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobobagins Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) The banter between Kaladin and Shallan I have to say was some of the best in the series right up there with Wits dialogue. So I can only say that them as a married couple would creat some of the most entertaining moments in the series as far as humour goes plus I can't help but draw attention to Kaladin comparisons between Shallan and his mother.... Also I can't help but feel there isn't really a need to for Shallan to marry Adolin since she now has the authority she requires or at least by the end or wor it seemed that way. So with that and in tandem with the fact that she's constantly playing a role with Adolin I really don't think that a relationship between the her and Adolin continuing would be fare to either of them. That and she and Kaladin seem to be able to balance one another emotionally just an observation from the events of the "chasm scene". Thoughts???? Edited March 9, 2014 by arcmourn 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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