Shallan's Relationship

[Aleksiel]

....

 

 

I think you should mark that couple as a spoiler as not everyone have read Mistborn. Also, the point was a love triangle would take too much space. If Adolin and Shallan break up, then she and Kal hit it off, it doesn't count.

[Terra of Roshar]

I think you should mark that couple as a spoiler as not everyone have read Mistborn. Also, the point was a love triangle would take too much space. If Adolin and Shallan break up, then she and Kal hit it off, it doesn't count.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know how to put in spoilers. I'd be happy to edit in a spoiler tag if you tell me how, though. 

 

And Aleksiel said

Kaladin and Shallan are both too broken to be able to have a healthy romantic relationship. Plus they have so much screen time, we'd have to read about their feels for each other every other chapter, which would be very annoying,

which is what I was responding to when talking about the romance taking up a lot of time. I had thought it was multiple people who said that, but apparently I had misremembered. And it could still count (to me at least) as a love triangle if Kaladin and Shallan continue to think about each other's attractiveness while they're apart, even if they don't have any real romantic interaction until after she breaks up with Adolin.

[TwistedMisting]

I think that there no honor problem here. "I will not want the woman of my friend" don't look a ideal to me.

 

This will be more about don't be a bad friend or something. 

 

We know too few, like you said, we don't know how Brandon will play this card, amd I sincerely hope that this don't turn in "twilight problem" I already had to much of a love triangle where the characters SHINE =)

 

you make a fair point: Just because it's not a good thing to do, doesn't mean he'd necessarily be breaking any of his oaths as a Windrunner.

 

I very much doubt Brandon would turn this into a 'twilight problem', to be honest he's too good a writer, and the love triangle in Twilight was the most forced I've ever encountered. Seriously, how many times does the girl turn the werewolf down and he just keeps on repeating 'oh but you love me you just don't know it yet'. Jeez. I really can't see Stormlight descending into that pointless drivel!

[Paradox]

From the discussion so far I think that at the very least the relationship, romantic or not, between Kaladin and Shallan has much more room for development. At this point its clear there is some level of attraction between Shallan and Kaladin. Because of how much they confided in each other and their positions as Radiants gives a lot of room for it to grow. But also their relationship has room for conflict, Kaladin did kill her brother and should she figure that out (if she hasn't already and is just repressing things again) it would add an obstacle for any kind of relationship they have to overcome.

 

On the flip side, there is nothing challanging about the relationship between Adolin and Shallan, and Brandon has a history of having romantic relationships built on personal conflict and its resolution causing tighter bonds. 

 

Think Vin & Elend (slave vs oppressive upper class, spy vs target, mistborn vs powerlessness), Dalinar & Navani (Fighting for with your brother, going against tradition), Raoden & Sarene (Paraiah and princess, there is more here but my memory of the book is sketchy), and then we have Siri & God King (language barrier, Siri being abosultely terrified of him for half the book).

 

At this point with Shallan and Adolin I can't find any possible significant point of conflict for their relationship to be challenged by and to overcome. Their relationship is just so bland, I mean you dont even have the typical unwilling arranged marraige scenario to go off. Since Shallan just wanted to help her family, again something she no longer has to worry about. Whereas I can see a lot of possible conflict and development on the horizon for Shallan and Kaladin which i think is in favour of them being together when all is said and done. 

 

I would also just be pretty disappointed if Brandon goes for the relationship that is as of now very vanilla and boring (I mean they are both basically running off of physical attraction and Shallan wanting to protect her family, which she is perfectly capable of doing by herself now) when he seems to revel in writing more dynamic relationships in his books.

[Ailessar]

I’ve come to accept that love triangles of all types, well done or not, occur a great deal in literature (Anna Karenina, Gone with the Wind, Shakespeare, Pride and Prejudice, Wuthering Heights, the list goes on and on), but I don’t have to like them as devices for character conflict.  

 

At this point, a triangle seems to be the next step, since

 

Shallan is showing signs of being reluctantly attracted to Kaladin as well, and she already seems committed to Adolin.

 

With Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin, and the way this is going, I sort of foresee the Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot triangle – Shallan marrying the prince Adolin, and Shallan and Knight Kaladin fighting or giving in to their attraction to each other.  I mean, that seems full of conflict to me, but I don’t know if BS will go for that sort of drama, would he?

 

If a triangle is a foregone conclusion, the fun would be to see who she would pick.  But I think what would be even more fun would be misdirection, leading us on this merry debate... then six books later, move away from the predictable and obvious, and we find out that BS has something else in store for our characters. So I vote, and look forward to, Unknown.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Aile

[Paradox]

I just don't see the marraige going through since the main reason for it in the first place is no longer there. Adolin still has the wandering eye issue even when with Shallan, this is something she even comments on and makes a point of her disapproval internally. Shallan was fine putting up with Adolin's inability to commit properly when it was for the sake of her family. I don't think she will be anywhere near so forgiving now.

 

As a side note. I'm thoroughly enjoying how much discussion this is causing on the forums.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Paradox

[Natans]

About the Kaladin killed Helaran problem.

 

Kaladin - Shallan i killed your brother,

Shallan - Well i killed my father so this is kind a thing we have in common, I mean we both killed my family members 

Kaladin - o.O

Sly - (Fast Kal I will distract her run!! This one are too broken)

Pattern - Mmm. this is a strong true let go of this silly spren and bond with us Kaladin

Adolin - Hey guys me too I killed Sadeas at coldblood =)

Kaladin & Shallan - O.O

 

Nice love Triangle going on there I would say =)

Edited March 8, 2014 by Natans

[FeatherWriter]

Okay I'm just now finding this thread so I'm going to respond to a bunch of things, sorry.

 

Current evidence for Renarin and Shallan is effectively non-existent. I'm not sure they even actually have a real conversation in the book.

 

Evidence for Shallarin has always been speculative and based on possible growth arcs and compatibility rather than interaction. That said. They do have a "conversation" in the book. One in which she first calls him "creepy and weird" and then tells the people with her to "Shut him up. Gag him if you must."

 

*seethes and hisses*

So, on that note:

 

Mistake: This is a public poll, Gaussian. Feather will personally hunt down and write essays to anyone who doesn't select "Renarin". The secret ballot exists for a reason.  

 

I know the Splintercast recordings are not anywhere near revealing this part of the book yet, so y'all haven't heard my first-reactions but...

 

I'm... not entirely sure that I'm still a Shallarin shipper. Okay, I mean, I kinda am. The things I've said about their growth arcs and gender role stuff is still valid. But that girl is on thin ice. I was ready to strangle her at the end of the book and at the moment, thinking of Shallan and Renarin together makes me hiss protectively while clutching Renarin, followed by an immediate pain that these were two people that I thought were going to be wonderful and kind to one another.

 

Yeah. Not so much.

 

So, I'm a Shallarin shipper with a disgustingly huge asterisk beside the ship name because Shallan is apparently not as ready for him as I thought she might be. At this point, she doesn't deserve Renarin and she's got some making up to do before I'm willing to trust her around him without my hackles raising and getting ready to snatch him away.

 

Until then, I am going to enjoy all kinds of cute imaginings of him with Bridge 4 and adorable, fluffy, protective Kaladin/Renarin scenes. The Kalarin shippers have welcomed me with open arms already, though I don't go nearly as far as most of them do with the ship.

 

Well, if Brandon objective are make us think about this for sure worked, this one of the more active topic in the forum =)

 

Love or hate the ship battles officially begun =)

 

Natans it's really cute how you think the ship wars have only now officially begun. Shallarin, Kalarin, and Shasnah have been trading blows for almost a year now. Haha.

 

Speaking of. No Jasnah on this poll? I mean, I'm not personally a Shasnah shipper (obviously), but it's got a pretty huge following! Shallarin and Shasnah were the two main Shallan ships before WoR dropped!

 

In response to the people complaining about Kaladin/Shallan eating up too much time since they're the two biggest POVs, I don't think that would happen.

 

Mistborn Spoilers

 

I went ahead and hid those spoilers for you, but in the future, you can type:

[ spoiler] PUT YOUR SPOILERS IN HERE [ /spoiler] without the spaces in the brackets to hide them. 

 

Anyway, to respond to that line of thought, I'll have to talk about Mistborn spoilers too, so

 

See, there's a big difference between Vinlend and Shalladin. Elend was not a main character when he was introduced. He was specifically a love interest, and a semi-minor non-viewpoint character at that. He has, what, two? Three viewpoints in the first book? All along we are being explicitly set up that Elend and Vin are going to have a romantic arc together. Then, after that is established, he becomes a main character with his own arc and viewpoints. 

 

Contrast that with Shallan and Kaladin, who have long major narrative arcs completely independent of each other for a book and a half. And they don't start getting ship teased until Part 4. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't like this ship. it's dreadfully obvious. Main male character and main female character who do their own thing for books on books and then all of a sudden they meet and "feelings are happening." I really hope it ends up subverted or inverted or something because otherwise, it's going to feel disappointing. I just can't appreciate them as a couple at all.

 

In addition to this, (aside from the Kalarin cutes that I ended up latching onto because BRAIZE IT, I'M GOING TO FIND SOMETHING RENARIN-RELATIONSHIP RELATED TO ENJOY IN THIS BOOK), Kadolin was my fave relationship in this book. It was perfect. And I couldn't have asked for a better progression or development of their interactions. Bickery rivals to bickery best friends was absolutely stunning and I adored every moment of it. Seriously, those of you listening to Splintercast be prepared to hear me cackle madly over everything Kaladin and Adolin do with each other because it was spot on and hilarious and wonderful.

 

And the idea of them on opposite sides of a love triangle with Shallan in the middle is just... euuuuuuuugh no. Do not destroy my one perfect relationship in this book over girl rivalry please. I'm mostly joking, but let's just have Adolin and Kaladin find out that she said we should GAG RENARIN and she goes and sits in the corner and thinks about what she's done until she's ready to apologize. Then we'll see about getting her a love interest. 

 

I will say that if she ameliorates her behavior, choosing Renarin would be a satisfactory way for this little triangle to get solved. "You have options A and B." "Okay, I'm taking C." That's always a fun way to solve issues, whether they be romance related or not. Who knows, perhaps her initial dislike and rudeness toward Renarin is setting up a growth thing to come. Maybe. I'm still not entirely sure I want her around him, even if she does get better.

 

I'm slightly more okay with Shadolin than Shalladin I guess, but I'm still not a huge fan of that one either. Let's be honest, I was disappointed ship-wise with this book majorly and I'm still nursing my wounds. It wasn't a writing issue so much as a personal one. I'm not saying the ending was bad - far from it! - but it was one that hurt me a lot and deeply upset me and I'm still not over it. It's hard to appreciate the cute scenes or merits of another ship after getting kicked in the teeth over something you spent years pouring time and effort into caring about and creating things for. 

 

Which means... I'm probably not voting for the moment. Maybe I'll bring myself to be able to click Renarin in a few months but for the moment thinking of her being around Renarin makes my vision go red and I feel the urge to flip a table. At her. 

 

(Oh hey though. This just occured to me... Other characters she's had significant interaction with with overtones of flirtiness and mutual respect? Who wants to start the Shallan/Mraize ship with me, hm? He even knows who she actually is now. That's a fun dynamic to think about and play with, and I have the most wonderful villian crush on Mraize already... He's even got a deliciously sinister little pet name for her, "little knife.")

[Gaussian]

I do note that you still have listed "Shallarin" as one of your espoused theories.  Rather incongruous, don't you think?

[Mr Horrible]

Contrast that with Shallan and Kaladin, who have long major narrative arcs completely independent of each other for a book and a half. And they don't start getting ship teased until Part 4. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't like this ship. it's dreadfully obvious. Main male character and main female character who do their own thing for books on books and then all of a sudden they meet and "feelings are happening." I really hope it ends up subverted or inverted or something because otherwise, it's going to feel disappointing. I just can't appreciate them as a couple at all.

 

I find this odd because do you expect feelings to happen for each other before they've actually met? If you're talking about other people then it already has for both Shallan and Kaladin, which didn't work out for either of them. As far as "suddenly feelings are happening", Shadolin is far, far more guilty of this than Shalladin, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if one of Shallan's next truths is "I don't love Adolin" (hopefully the triangle doesn't get that much focus though). 

 

As I said in another post, while it may be pretty obvious at this point, if you stop considering whether characters are main or side I feel like a lot of the arguments would dry up (another major chunk is wanting to avoid a triangle).

 

I also agree that Kadolin was very nice in WoR, however I'm worried where Adolin is going to go. He's been repeatedly referred to by Dalinar as being better than him (who still deeply regrets his Blackthorn phase), but I think the Sadeas murder is a pretty stark contrast to that. I do like the contrast between Kaladin and Adolin though; Adolin is portrayed quite 'white and pure' but is actually pretty grey when you get down to it and to other characters Kaladin seems 'grey and moody' but is white when push comes to shove. At the moment Adolin shows significant potential to go down a similar path to Amaram.

[AyeJay]

One in which she first calls him "creepy and weird" and then tells the people with her to "Shut him up. Gag him if you must.

 

To be fair to Shallan, someone going on (rather hysterically) about how you were all going to die while you were trying to figure out how to not die would be distracting. He had been sent to protect her group and he was pretty much doing less than nothing to live up to that. Yes, Renarin did a lot of brave things in the book, but in that moment he was cracking under the stress. I would have wanted him to shut up as well, before he caused other people to give up. 

[Jess]

It's far too early to make a serious prediction, I think.

However, I'm pretty surprised at the prevalence of knee-jerk "No love triangles!" reactions in this thread. I'm not fond of typical soap-opera-esque love triangles myself, but I fully believe that Sanderson is a much better writer than that, so I'm not worried about it. As others have noted, it is entirely possible for Shallan to move from her relationship with Adolin to one with Kaladin without actually having a love triangle. And honestly, even if there is some character conflict over it, I think Sanderson is perfectly capable of writing it well.

Specifically, the concern that it would become a plot tumor where we have to endure the characters whining about their relationship issues all the time seems completely unfounded. All three of have much more important things to worry about right now, and all three of them seem capable of focusing on the apocalypse at hand instead of their interpersonal drama. Sure, they'd probably think about it from time to time, but it would be very out of character for Shallan or Kaladin to obsess about to the point where it became a major part of their arc. I guess I could see Adolin angsting a bit more than the other two, but still not to the point where it would get in the way of the rest of the story.

But the biggest reason why I am not worried about a romantic plot-tumor: Kaladin and Shallan's interactions were actually a pretty small part of WoR. Kaladin noticed Shallan walking around the bottom of the chasm on page 818, and they fell asleep in their improvised shelter on page 880. Subtracting the Teft POV and Shallan flashback leaves about 45 pages of Kaladin and Shallan in the chasms, and a substantial portion of that was action sequences. Prior to that, they had only brief interactions; afterward, there were a couple of paragraphs where they were thinking about each other. And it looks like Kaladin and Shallan will be in completely different parts of the world at the beginning of the next book.

And yet, their interaction was some of the most memorable and compelling writing in WoR. I'd argue that this is partially because it didn't take up much page-time, not in spite of it. The seed of their potential relationship is being developed with a pretty light touch, all things considered, which is a great sign for the quality of future developments. Those short paragraphs where Shallan was trying to define what exactly drew her to Kaladin packed more emotional punch than all the times she thought about Adolin (his looks, and how to best keep him interested in her) put together. The brief passage where Kaladin was lamenting that Shallan was already with Adolin bespoke deeper attachment than all of Adolin's fascination with a woman he doesn't actually know that well.

tl;dr: Shallan and Kaladin's interactions were far more moving—while simultaneously taking less screentime—than Shallan and Adolin's. This is the opposite of a plot-tumor.

 

it's dreadfully obvious. Main male character and main female character who do their own thing for books on books and then all of a sudden they meet and "feelings are happening." I really hope it ends up subverted or inverted or something because otherwise, it's going to feel disappointing. I just can't appreciate them as a couple at all.

 

You know, I would have agreed with this right up until I read the chasm scene, which exceeded my wildest expectations and assuaged all the skepticism I'd had about the idea. The sheer chemistry, how real and genuine it felt, trumped my more meta concerns about "ugh, the female and male lead always become a couple." But that's obviously subjective.

 

Although, I don't really get your Mistborn comparison because...

...it seems to me that two fully realized, independent characters eventually starting a relationship is usually preferable to one character being introduced solely as The Love Interest. I don't actually have any issues with how Vin/Elend transpired, but that's the exception to the rule. Vin/Elend worked in spite of his individual arc following his relationship with Vin, not because of it.

 

Shallan and Kaladin are both broken in their own way, which is exactly why they aren't right for each other as in a romantic relationship. They both need someone to set an example and help them heal.

[...]

Kaladin can have... Someone who could show him that not only you can smile through the pain, but you can also outgrow it and move on. Shallan needs the same. Two broken people can't have a healthy lasting relationship, too much luggage from the past and none of them would know how to deal with it.

I honestly hate this argument, especially the statement that I bolded. It sounds like you are saying that if two people who both have trauma in their past fall in love, then there is no hope for their relationship. What a massive generalization! Shallan and Kaladin aren't predestined to fail as a couple just because they both fall under the abstract concept "broken people." Broken people are still individuals—they might be compatible, or they might not. You do the characters a huge disservice when you write it off as "well it will never work because they are both too broken." It's like you are talking about an archetype: Broken Person A + Broken Person B = bad relationship, no exceptions. But Shallan and Kaladin aren't just Broken Person A and Broken Person B. There is so much more to them; they have a unique dynamic (just as any two well-realized characters would) which can't be reduced to "they're both broken."

It's also telling when you say that they "need" someone to set an example, help them heal, show them how to outgrow pain, etc. Now that is an unhealthy relationship dynamic, one person fixing another. I don't think Shallan and Kaladin "need" each other or anyone else. I just think they have promising chemistry.

There are some significant hurdles in the way of a healthy Shallan/Kaladin relationship (he killed her brother, their spren hate eachother, Kaladin is loyal to Adolin), no doubt about it. But imo neither "ew love triangles" nor "they are both too broken" are very good objections.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Jess

[AyeJay]

When it comes to Syl and Pattern interacting, I think the dislike is a generalization. She didn't seem afraid or angry that she saw a Cryptic, although I've been up for far too long reading and can't remember the specifics. Also if Syj can encourage Kal to get over his hatred of lighteyes then he can push her to do the same with Pattern. Spren need character growth too. 

[ssd6]

A couple of points.

 

First,  there will be no love triangle.  Kaladin won't be in Urithiru much in the next book, at least.  He, and now Jasnah, are the only two Radiants who can cover ground fast enough to open up the other portals before the rest of the world is destroyed.  I have a feeling he'll be spending most of the next book travelling, while Shallan spends most of it working with the other KR in Urithiru.  So, she'll likely have her feelings for Adolin worked out by the time she and Kalladin spend any significant time together.

 

Second,  Pattern and Syl won't get along.  For Shallan, that might not matter as she hates Pattern.  However, for Kaladin, it'll mean everything.  He's not ever going to do something to upset Syl again as he won't want to experience the depression and loneliness he felt when she left him.

 

Third, Shallan will find out about Kaladin killing her brother.  Even if her brother was at fault, it will make for huge problems with those two getting together.  Helaran was the man she wished her father would be.  The man she wished her other brothers would be.  The one who pushed her to pursue her biggest talent.  I don't see her getting romantically involved with the man who killed someone that important to her.  Also, Kaladin is all about honor.  The more he changes, the more the very nature of being honorable will be important to him.  I have a feeling he'll find out about Shallan's involvement with the Ghostbloods and it will turn his opinion of her very quickly.

 

So, IMO, there's no future for Shalladin.  I'll vote for Shadolin instead, even though I'm not certain on that, but it seems most probable of the choices we have here.

 

I agree with your first point, I expect the Adolin and Shallan relationship to be figured out before anything happens with Kaladin.

 

You really don't expect Kaladin to upset Syl ever again? Or vice versa? That sounds pretty boring if Kaladin has to walk on egg shells around Syl, especially since their little arguments are enjoyable to read. She had to leave him because of messing with his oaths and that's what upset her. I doubt she's going to choose to leave Kaladin and become a regular spren just because he's dating a girl that has a spren that she will dislike. Especially since she's spent a huge portion of the book wanting him to laugh and smile, which is something Shallan brought out of him. I'd assume his happiness is more important than her dislike for Pattern. Also, if anyone hasn't noticed, Syl and Shallan have similar personalities in quite a few ways. Additionally, plot wise, I would think Sanderson would enjoy writing about the added drama from Syl and Pattern not liking each other, and how it effects the relationship between Kaladin/Shallan. 

 

Kaladin killing her brother and it being avoided for now is foreshadowing for future drama between the two. It'd be a perfect method to slow down a relationship between the two and create a rift they need to repair. He's already foreshadowing multiple issues to them getting together, while writing them as two people that complement one another very well, which would lead into an actually interesting love story progression. 

 

The most interesting part for me is seeing the "real" Shallan come out the more she interacts with Kaladin. I want to see more of her that isn't a persona just created to protect herself. Kaladin in almost every scene with her managed to get to the "real" her and it was enjoyable seeing those small moments where her persona cracks. He already figured out she was putting up a "fake smile" and was on the verge of telling her that always being witty doesn't mean she can avoid certain issues, before they ran from the chasmfiend. 

Edited March 8, 2014 by ssd6

[branfordtough]

Given that we're only two books into a ten-book series, making guesses as to who a character will end up with by the end of the series seems a little premature.

 

That said, I think it's worth noting that both of her current prospects have pretty big drama bombs waiting in the wings.  On Adolin's part, there's his murder of a highprince, which will undoubtedly come out and throw his standing and relationships into turmoil.  Meanwhile, on Kaladin's side of things, there's the fact that he killed Shallan's brother -- and, worse, that he knows and has yet to tell her.  

 

So, yeah, who knows what's going to happen.

[happyman]

That said, I think it's worth noting that both of her current prospects have pretty big drama bombs waiting in the wings.  On Adolin's part, there's his murder of a highprince, which will undoubtedly come out and throw his standing and relationships into turmoil.  Meanwhile, on Kaladin's side of things, there's the fact that he killed Shallan's brother -- and, worse, that he knows and has yet to tell her. 

 

Shallan's attitude towards Adolin killing Sadeas will be interesting.  Given how she reacted to Jasnah's killing of those men, she's more than a little sensitive (and hypocritical) in that regard.

[ShadowsFell]

... stuff ...

 

Too much to read, too lazy, so I just agreed with everyone else and up-voted you .   Good post !

[Seloun]

A couple of points.

 

First,  there will be no love triangle.  Kaladin won't be in Urithiru much in the next book, at least.  He, and now Jasnah, are the only two Radiants who can cover ground fast enough to open up the other portals before the rest of the world is destroyed.  I have a feeling he'll be spending most of the next book travelling, while Shallan spends most of it working with the other KR in Urithiru.  So, she'll likely have her feelings for Adolin worked out by the time she and Kalladin spend any significant time together.

 

Second,  Pattern and Syl won't get along.  For Shallan, that might not matter as she hates Pattern.  However, for Kaladin, it'll mean everything.  He's not ever going to do something to upset Syl again as he won't want to experience the depression and loneliness he felt when she left him.

 

Third, Shallan will find out about Kaladin killing her brother.  Even if her brother was at fault, it will make for huge problems with those two getting together.  Helaran was the man she wished her father would be.  The man she wished her other brothers would be.  The one who pushed her to pursue her biggest talent.  I don't see her getting romantically involved with the man who killed someone that important to her.  Also, Kaladin is all about honor.  The more he changes, the more the very nature of being honorable will be important to him.  I have a feeling he'll find out about Shallan's involvement with the Ghostbloods and it will turn his opinion of her very quickly.

 

So, IMO, there's no future for Shalladin.  I'll vote for Shadolin instead, even though I'm not certain on that, but it seems most probable of the choices we have here.

 

Those points are actually better in support of Kaladin/Shallan, mostly because they're external factors - they're obstacles that their relationship would have to overcome, making it more meaningful. They have very little internal inconsistencies, where one or the other would have to change in a radical fashion to adapt.

 

Point by point:

 

- Kaladin being away from Shallan in the next book (I predict it will be most of next book) and heading back home probably means he'll get an opportunity to compare Shallan to his other female interests (Laral, Tarah) rather than forgetting about her. Breaking up a relationship couple in plot temporarily is pretty conventional for this reason. Also, absence makes the heart grow fonder. The separation is also necessary to make point number 3 an actual thing (more later).

 

- Syl and Pattern not getting along is _exactly_ the sort of not-really-serious-but-serious tension that tends to drive people together (see: Romeo and Juliet). Forbidden fruit, and all that. This is again another external conflict - it's yet another thing that does not change who either of them are but that they need to overcome. Syl does not like Cryptics, but is grudgingly willing to say they aren't outright _evil_; it'll be an interesting irony to see her be the stereotyping bigot for a change. In fact, this is likely a good lever for Syl's character growth (Sanderson also seems to -really- love ironic echos/ironic foreshadowing; imagine them rehashing the conversation about Dalinar and Lighteyes except with the pronouns substituted and roles reversed).

 

- Helarin's death is clearly being held in reserve for the next book. There are at least three occasions where Shallan could have easily have found out about Kaladin's role if things had been slightly different: Chasm and Kaladin's challenge both have him refer to the incident in a very roundabout manner, and she passes by him just a short period before Dalinar confronts Amaram. The problem is that if she finds out about while Kaladin is there to explain what happened, it becomes a non-story; she has to learn about it in a distorted way while Kaladin isn't available to defend himself for this to -be- an issue. Currently, if Kaladin leaves, it's very easy for her to find out about who killed the Shardbearer (Dalinar, Navani, anyone at the confrontation, which includes Bridge Four and Renarin) but no one knows about the specifics of what happened; Kaladin hasn't related it to anyone and Amaram (who is pretty much the only other living witness) is not likely to offer her the truth of what happened. In fact this is something which would be very easy to put in a bad light by e.g. Mraise or the aforementioned Amaram, but the punch of that goes away if Shallan can just go up to Kaladin and ask what happened. So it has to wait until Kaladin is gone for this to be a Thing. However, the work involved in making this be a Thing means it has to have some payoff; if Shallan doesn't particularly care about Kaladin, this becomes more of a footnote than a Thing. Imagine if Amaram -had- been the one to kill Helarin: in that case, so what? There's no impact since Shallan doesn't really care about Amaram otherwise one way or another.

[loganmathewjohnson]

Wow. This is a pretty hefty discussion.  

 

... Can I just say "Adolin is a studmuffin"* and walk away from this quietly??

 

But seriously. Adolin and Shallan are my two favorite characters, as of WoR.... I'd love to see this work out.

 

Sorry to be the shallow-est one in a sea of legit, analytic predictors. Love you guys.

 

 

 

*A murderous studmuffin IS still a studmuffin, right??

[PorridgeBrick]

One of the main reasons why I want Shalladin is actually because I really like Adolin. I think his relationship with Shallan is unhealthy. While he is most definitely in love, the woman he's in love with is no more Shallan than Veil is. It's just another facade. All along, Shallan has been lying and manipulating him without a thought, blatantly using him. If their relationship goes on longer, and he finds out how little he really knows her, then I think it could really destroy him. Better to have the pain of losing her now than a larger pain. That way, he can find someone that he has better chemistry with and isn't manipulated by.

[Seloun]

Evidence for Shallarin has always been speculative and based on possible growth arcs and compatibility rather than interaction. That said. They do have a "conversation" in the book. One in which she first calls him "creepy and weird" and then tells the people with her to "Shut him up. Gag him if you must."

 

Those *were* the most memorable parts of their interactions (not a high bar), but I was specifically not counting those as a 'real conversation' (since neither of those are actually directed at Renarin). Going back to re-examine the scene though technically she does ask him to slay a rock and bring his Shardblade to the keyhole (gatehole? oath-hole?). Even then it probably doesn't count since as far as I can tell _Renarin_ never says anything to Shallan (anyone have a counter-example?).

 

- Actually, re-re-reading the scene, Renarin does say to Shallan, 'did that do anything?' and she does respond. So I suppose they do in fact have a conversation. Yes, I enjoy being pedantic.

[Argent]

Evidence for Shallarin has always been speculative and based on possible growth arcs and compatibility rather than interaction. That said. They do have a "conversation" in the book. One in which she first calls him "creepy and weird" and then tells the people with her to "Shut him up. Gag him if you must."

 

*seethes and hisses*

 

Well, it is now established that Shallan has a wild streak so... BDSM, anyone?

[FeatherWriter]

I do note that you still have listed "Shallarin" as one of your espoused theories.  Rather incongruous, don't you think?

 

I'm... technically the theory leader. And I can't quite bring myself to remove it. Like I said, I still think it's got long-term potential in there. The points I've made about it are still valid. Shallan's just not where I thought she was in her arc thus far. Recalculations must be made.

 

I find this odd because do you expect feelings to happen for each other before they've actually met? If you're talking about other people then it already has for both Shallan and Kaladin, which didn't work out for either of them. As far as "suddenly feelings are happening", Shadolin is far, far more guilty of this than Shalladin, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if one of Shallan's next truths is "I don't love Adolin" (hopefully the triangle doesn't get that much focus though). 

 

I wasn't expecting them to have feelings for each other before meeting, no. That wouldn't make sense.Yeah, actually! It's a different kind of shipping than others might imagine, but in my mind it's one that's rather more fun. Shipping characters who haven't met is like playing matchmaker. It's about compatibility and—in a narrative setting—it's about growth arcs. I'm not going to rehash my Shallarin arguments here, but there was a lot of thought and effort that went into my analysis of their potential... which was partially why it hurt so bad that they started off this way.

 

To be fair to Shallan, someone going on (rather hysterically) about how you were all going to die while you were trying to figure out how to not die would be distracting. He had been sent to protect her group and he was pretty much doing less than nothing to live up to that. Yes, Renarin did a lot of brave things in the book, but in that moment he was cracking under the stress. I would have wanted him to shut up as well, before he caused other people to give up. 

 

I know. I know. That's what Brandon said when I brought it up too... (Yes I complained about my being upset o ver Shallarin to Brandon. Yes this was a good use of my time with him. Shut up. I was trying to remember how to breathe at the time.) I'm well aware that I'm biased. Doesn't make it feel any less real though. I'm not saying everyone should think Shallan is awful for what she did. I'm saying I am personally upset with her from a very biased and individualized standpoint.

 

Given that we're only two books into a ten-book series, making guesses as to who a character will end up with by the end of the series seems a little premature.

 

Eh, no different from any other theory! Y'all will extrapolate and pull strings from here to the moon over cosmere theories and other kinds of predictions. Why need shipping be any different?

 

Well, it is now established that Shallan has a wild streak so... BDSM, anyone?

 

*blinks*

*brain breaks*

(And I know it was a joke but to be honest, I really don't feel like Renarin's the BDSM type. Shallan... maybe. Renarin, probably not. Mraize on the other hand... *quietly tries to make Mraize/Shallan a thing*)

[Seerow]

I'm... technically the theory leader. And I can't quite bring myself to remove it. Like I said, I still think it's got long-term potential in there. The points I've made about it are still valid. Shallan's just not where I thought she was in her arc thus far. Recalculations must be made.

 

It's going to take more than a little bit of recalculation after the vector Shallan's arc took in Words of Radiance. For example the whole thing with them teaching each other at night in secret I honestly can't see happening at all at this point with her out as a Radiant. 

 

 

*blinks*

*brain breaks*

(And I know it was a joke but to be honest, I really don't feel like Renarin's the BDSM type. Shallan... maybe. Renarin, probably not. Mraize on the other hand... *quietly tries to make Mraize/Shallan a thing*)

 

Honestly I figured Renarin was more the type to be into that. You know, with him being so happy to oblige when others tell him what to do....

Edited March 8, 2014 by Seerow

[Paradox]

On Shallan and Renarin.

 

As of the moment there is quite literally nothing there to support a relationship for them. In fact Shallan thinks he is downright 'creepy and weird'. This is backwards progress people.

 

Ultimately we simply have almost nothing to go on for Shallan & Renarin and what we do have puts them in the negative.

 

It had to be said, I am so sorry.