Harmony's Lost Metal

[Calderis]

Nah, he could fight someone off by taking control himself with his double Shard power, but the spikes themselves are the access to Kandra, and you can't remove those.

I actually think that the idea the metal is used without a Shard knowing is plausible @MountainKing. I firmly believe that Trellium would not work Allomantically or Feruchemically yet. I just don't feel that's the current situation. 

@Yata convinced me of hemalurgy functioning different in this respect about a year ago. Allomancers can't burn foreign God metals because they lack the connection to that Shard to do so, and I imagine that Feruchemy would function the same. Why would hemalurgy require that though? Your not trying to take power from an outside source, and you don't need any Spiritual genes for the effect. You just need knowledge of bindpoints and intent to make a spike.

So yes, I think it's possible that the metal is being used without knowledge of a Shard, but I still doubt that's the case. If people had gotten their hands on a godmetal and were using it that's one thing. But there is an outside force, implied to be another "God" applying pressure to Harmony, both in the representation of the red haze and the metal. 

If another Shard is involved, stealing metal from yet another shard is needlessly convoluted. They can apply a minimal amount of power to provide some of their own metal to their agents, and the job is done. Stealing metal from another Shard would serve what purpose? Mask their identity from parties who have no way of knowing it in the first place?

If there was no confirmation that another shard was involved and that this were just The Set with a stolen metal, that would be one thing. A Shard is involved though and as such the metal came from it. The alternative is convoluted and completely unnecessary. 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Calderis

[goody153]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Spikes open an entity to any influence, not just from one particular shard. That's how Kelsier could talk to spiked people as well. Bleeder only had one spike though, which didn't open her soul enough to make her controllable.

Yeah but Ruin specifically can forcibly take over the control of the spiked creatures(he has done this before in HoA) tho. Hemalurgy works on basically the same concept as all magic system like filling the holes in the soul of a person but Ruin still fuels that magic system. He has utmost influence over it. Obviously Sazed isn't the type to interfere with such communicates given how Sazed is.

Like how Odium has utmost control or ability to hijack those his spren bonded even tho him and Honor basically work under the same pattern of "filling the soul with power".

It's probably also intent based too like Preservation/Honor and maybe Autonomy could not just take control of people(because even if the Shard could their intent doesn't allow the power) as Odium/Ruin without obstruction could. 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, goody153 said:

Yeah but Ruin specifically can forcibly take over the control of the spiked creatures(he has done this before in HoA) tho. Hemalurgy works on basically the same concept as all magic system like filling the holes in the soul of a person but Ruin still fuels that magic system. He has utmost influence over it. Obviously Sazed isn't the type to interfere with such communicates given how Sazed is.

Like how Odium has utmost control or ability to hijack those his spren bonded even tho him and Honor basically work under the same pattern of "filling the soul with power".

It's probably also intent based too like Preservation/Honor and maybe Autonomy could not just take control of people(because even if the Shard could their intent doesn't allow the power) as Odium/Ruin without obstruction could. 

I believe the only factor here is intent. The hole in voidspren and spikes is extremely similar. 

They both provide a hole directly to the soul of the individual, and the only factors are the amount of access, and the required power. 

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

source

Yes he names the Shards, but that due to location. If it were keyed to Ruin, Allomancy wouldn't work. An Allomancer is unable to contend with the strength of a Shard though, so no one could hold a construct against him. Place him against another Shard in that situation and I think the outcome would be far less certain.

[goody153]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I believe the only factor here is intent. The hole in voidspren and spikes is extremely similar. 

They both provide a hole directly to the soul of the individual, and the only factors are the amount of access, and the required power. 

Yes he names the Shards, but that due to location. If it were keyed to Ruin, Allomancy wouldn't work. An Allomancer is unable to contend with the strength of a Shard though, so no one could hold a construct against him. Place him against another Shard in that situation and I think the outcome would be far less certain.

Isn't allomancy, feruchemy and nahel bond basically the same tho ? Fillling the cracks inside the spirit web but we don't see Ruin or Odium taking control over the holes of Radiants or Surgebinder but they have the right intent to just hijack people. 

I don't see how Odium or anybody with the right intent could take control of Hemalurgically spiked person with Ruin's investure inside him/her through spikes.

Edited July 5, 2018 by goody153

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Isn't allomancy, feruchemy and nahel bond basically the same tho ? Fillling the cracks inside the spirit web but we don't see Ruin or Odium taking control over the holes of Radiants or Surgebinder but they have the right intent to just hijack people. 

I don't see how Odium or anybody with the right intent could take control of Hemalurgically spiked person with Ruin's investure inside him/her through spikes.

Than why can an allomancer using Preservation's power control Kandra and Koloss through their spikes? A diametrically opposed power source. 

[goody153]

Just now, Calderis said:

Than why can an allomancer using Preservation's power control Kandra and Koloss through their spikes? A diametrically opposed power source. 

I suppose that makes sense but i don't really see how other shards take priority over somebody who is literally fueling the magic system. The trellium makes sense since it's literally another shards investure but even so Ruin had inherent advantage enough(the person making the magic system work) that Bleeder cannot have another foreign spike in her since Ruin still takes over. 

Then there's also the fact that even if the shards could not stop people from using their magic system(if the person has access to it) that doesn't mean they can't intervene which sounds like what another shard would be doing to Ruin.

It still sounds so much like a surgebinder Odium directly controls or Honor controlling his fused.

[Calderis]

Kandra require two spikes to take control. Period. Bleeder had one spike. 

If the material mattered, she still only had one spike of "Ruin" 

And Ruin's power doesn't "fuel" anything in hemalurgy. It facilitates the transfer of power into the spike when a chunk of a soul is stolen, and that's literally it. 

Everything held in the spike, every power granted, is composed of whatever that chunk of stolen spiritweb was. Not Ruin.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Calderis

[Bigmikey357]

It takes 2 spikes to create a kandra, but once created a kandra can operate with one. Their cognitive function is impaired but they will not disassociate. But even with one spike a shard can speak with a spiked entity. Do we have confirmation that once an entity is spiked, any Shard has a means to control that Spiked entity? Or proof of the opposite, that they become open only to the shard that creates them? If any shard can control a spiked entity then that guy is a tool for any shard with designs in the Cosmere. Making a tool like that would have a frightening tendency to turn in the hand of the shard when least expected. If only the creating shard can gain control of the spiked entity then it makes no sense for a competing shard to make a kandra with anything other than its own God Metal. But even if it does not confer control, wouldn't Autonomy know that another Shard was trying to use its Connection to Scadrial to produce Kandra for an agenda that may not allign with her own? And if so would she not take steps to prevent investiture coded to her from being used in ways she did not authorize? Just too convoluted when the simple answer is Autonomy as Trell has designs on Scadrial and is creating agents to thwart Harmony. No other shards necessary.

[goody153]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kandra require two spikes to take control. Period. Bleeder had one spike. 

If the material mattered, she still only had one spike of "Ruin" 

And Ruin's power doesn't "fuel" anything in hemalurgy. It facilitates the transfer of power into the spike when a chunk of a soul is stolen, and that's literally it. 

Everything held in the spike, every power granted, is composed of whatever that chunk of stolen spiritweb was. Not Ruin.

If that's really it why couldn't preservation talk to people through spikes? You may say that Ruin is the only one who can talk between the two but Rashek ascending managed to do that without completely holding the entire shard of Preservation. Then there's another case with Ruin preventing Vin from ascending or drawing preservation through a single spike.

It doesn't sound completely out of intent why Preservation couldn't talk it's not like murdering.

It's the case was truly that Ruin is only involved in the hemalurgic spiking that means the spike is made up of Preservation as well ? Would that mean that Preservation could totally contest the spikes ? Why couldn't he ? Preservation is basically a shard like Ruin no different from Odium/Honor/Endowment. Why could Ruin be the only one to influence in the holes through Hemalurgy when Rashek holding preservation can without it ? 

That's why i'm unconvinced on how much extent other shards could actually interfere with Ruin's control over spikes when Preservation couldn't(who was basically sharing the planet and actually has more investure inside Scadrials than Ruin does ). when you would think talking/inserting thoughts is much much easier than controlling people with spikes. Sure preservation would never control people but he WOULD talk to people if he could why can't he contest as well.  And they were on basically the same place too with preservation fueling everything from the people's sapience to allomancy/feruchemy(ok Ruin has a share of this abit but just this)

 

Why can't preservation can't talk through shard when equal with Ruin ? Does it just mean Ruin has more advantages to hemalurgically spiked constructs compared to other shards ?

Edited July 5, 2018 by goody153

[MountainKing]

When Leras held Perservation during the final empire era, most of his mind is being used to stop Ruin from escaping. This cause most of his actions to only be guided by his mandate: Perservation. Because of this Leras's actions was all about perserving, so any action, like appearing to someone*, would cause change. It has also been confirmed that Perservation can only listen to minds and Ruin can only talk to minds, but that it just because of their intents and Brandon wanting to have a dichotomy between the two shards.

But we know that's not the case for all shards. Stormlight Archive Spoilers:

Spoiler

Odium can both talk and listen to others as long he has something to channel his power, i.e.  the Everstorm and the dreams that the Stormfather holds. And in Words of Radiance, the spren that causes Stormform let's Odium or a splinter of him control the Parshedi in a way that they didn't know they under control or that their actions were different then how they usually act, which is similar to how Marsh felt when being controlled by Ruin, what Ruin thought was beautiful Marsh thought was beautiful. It changed his whole thought process to become similar to his controller. Later Eshonia was slipping from their control like Marsh when he pulled out Vin's eating, and there were signs that she was being controlled.

*Leras does appear to Elend, but that was his final attempt before Ruin killed him and Kelsier influencing him to do more to help stop Ruin.

[Spoolofwhool]

20 hours ago, goody153 said:

Yeah but Ruin specifically can forcibly take over the control of the spiked creatures(he has done this before in HoA) tho. Hemalurgy works on basically the same concept as all magic system like filling the holes in the soul of a person but Ruin still fuels that magic system. He has utmost influence over it. Obviously Sazed isn't the type to interfere with such communicates given how Sazed is.

Like how Odium has utmost control or ability to hijack those his spren bonded even tho him and Honor basically work under the same pattern of "filling the soul with power".

It's probably also intent based too like Preservation/Honor and maybe Autonomy could not just take control of people(because even if the Shard could their intent doesn't allow the power) as Odium/Ruin without obstruction could. 

16 hours ago, goody153 said:

If that's really it why couldn't preservation talk to people through spikes? You may say that Ruin is the only one who can talk between the two but Rashek ascending managed to do that without completely holding the entire shard of Preservation. Then there's another case with Ruin preventing Vin from ascending or drawing preservation through a single spike.

No, spikes create holes in souls, not fills them, and it is through those holes that Ruin, allomancers, or other entities could affect the hemalurgic creations. The reason why Leras could not speak to or control people was because of the nature of his power, where it would automatically attempt to fill the holes in the soul to sustain it, therefore preventing him from using those holes to influence them.

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Spoolofwhool

[Calderis]

Exactly. The fact that the spike is there means there is a hole that can't be repaired without removing the spike. 

The fact that Preservation still can't speak to someone spiked means there is more to the "can't speak to people" has more going on than just "sealing the cracks." 

Hemalurgy offers a pathway for anything with the power to access. It's why Hoid doesn't have spikes. 

Quote

Ruro272 (paraphrased)

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

source

Influence of Shards. Plural. Not the influence of Ruin. 

[goody153]

I highly doubt Preservation can't speak to somebody through intent-wise since it doesn't make sense as talking to somebody doesn't go against the "preservation". Talking doesn't go against it lol

It also still doesn't explain why Rashek could talk to somebody using just some of the powers of preservation(if you don't remember it was when Rashek offered Kwaan immortality but refused it). I don't see why Rashek could but somebody holding the full shard couldn't. I'll just chalk this up as "plot reasons" but is another reason why it can't be intent reasons.

If the holes created by Ruin are actually able to be exploited by "another shard" through filling the cracks then why couldn't Leras/Vin/Kelsier holding full of preservation exploit those holes when they are basically in the same place as Ruin is. So they have the biggest advantage in exploiting anything compared to all other shard who are basically outside. Preservation literally shares the planet with Ruin. Preservation has the biggest advantage over literally every shard out there (he literally has more investure inside each Scadrian than Ruin even compared to all other shards who has zero)

And i don't mean exploiting the holes through "control" but just talking. Since it's just talking using the holes of the spikes after all. 

Why can't preservation ? If preservation can't i highly doubt another shard can actually compete with Ruin if he's actively influencing the spikes person unless there's some good explanation why Preservation couldn't talk on the hemalurgic constructs as well.

Edited July 6, 2018 by goody153

[MountainKing]

Perservation as a shard can't communicate via cracks or holes in the spiritweb. Rashek didn't hold enough of the shard to be influenced by Perservation mandated. Perservation can appear by creating an avatar of himself and talking to people, but his mandate stops him from influencing or communicate with people via cracks or holes in the spirit aspect of someone. He can talk to things that mind exist solely or majority in the spiritual realm.

[Calderis]

Rashek was able to do a lot of things that Preservation couldn't. He was able to use that power to reshape the world, which Preservation could have done, but wouldn't because his intent. 

The only thing that he attempted to do that the power refused was to kill Kwaan. 

It didn't prevent him from speaking into the minds of the Feruchemists who became the first generation of Kandra, and who made that decision for all living Feruchemists. Which shows that it was something about the way the intent shaped Leras' mind, and not a part of the power itself, as they were not spiked. 

As to the control issue with Kel and Vin, Kel had no tie to the physical realm. He was cut off from a full third of Preservation's power and would have lost to ruin outright even if he had tried. 

Vin probably could have done it, but she didn't bother she went straight at Ruin himself. 

[goody153]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

Perservation as a shard can't communicate via cracks or holes in the spiritweb. Rashek didn't hold enough of the shard to be influenced by Perservation mandated. Perservation can appear by creating an avatar of himself and talking to people, but his mandate stops him from influencing or communicate with people via cracks or holes in the spirit aspect of someone. He can talk to things that mind exist solely or majority in the spiritual realm.

He couldn't kill using Preservation's powers so he's definitely affected by it. 

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Rashek was able to do a lot of things that Preservation couldn't. He was able to use that power to reshape the world, which Preservation could have done, but wouldn't because his intent. 

The only thing that he attempted to do that the power refused was to kill Kwaan. 

It didn't prevent him from speaking into the minds of the Feruchemists who became the first generation of Kandra, and who made that decision for all living Feruchemists. Which shows that it was something about the way the intent shaped Leras' mind, and not a part of the power itself, as they were not spiked. 

As to the control issue with Kel and Vin, Kel had no tie to the physical realm. He was cut off from a full third of Preservation's power and would have lost to ruin outright even if he had tried. 

Vin probably could have done it, but she didn't bother she went straight at Ruin himself. 

So can Rashek but he's still holding preservation tho that shouldn't excuse a literal fullholder things he could do. The reasons are pretty weak that "she probably didn't bother" she was trying so hard to send messages, even Kelsier was doing as well. Unless what Rashek was doing was story inconsistency(talking directly to people)

Why they didn't also whisper in the holes of hemalurgy? They literally were the closest that could. Maybe cause they couldn't

I can accept that shards could whisper through the hemalurgic holes if Ruin wasn't contesting it's still holes in the soul after all but contesting ? We already have preservation's example for that who was basically the closest who could contest Ruin but couldn't.

And the act of talking is literally just talking it's not against "Preservation". 

Edited July 6, 2018 by goody153

[MountainKing]

Vin did try to speak to Elend and she only got the faintest idea across, so I think that taking a up a whole shard causing the vessel to be restricted then taking up a splinter when  dealing with intent

[Bigmikey357]

On the theory of a shard other than Autonomy using a Trellium Spike:

Hemalurgy opens a soul to Shardic influence. Theoretically once a soul is pierced then any shard can reach in and gain control. The more spikes, the more control. So it's possible that some unknown Shard stole a bunch of Trellium spikes to make kandra to unleash on Scadrial. Problem is that this action cannot possibly be hidden from Autonomy; a Shard always knows where investiture keyed to it is being used due to Spiritual Connection. This unknown Shard will basically be fighting 3 Shards on 2 fronts, both of which can bring more power to bear due to being invested in the system of conflict.

BTW, Mountain King, is there a specific reason why you feel it has to be a Shard we haven't been introduced to instead of Autonomy? I mean, Autonomy can do everything you propose that this other Shard is doing without need for extra steps. 

[MountainKing]

It's just that the beggar being mins controlled at the end of Bands of Mourning just doesn't seem like something Autonomy or one of her avatars could do because of intent.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, MountainKing said:

It's just that the beggar being mins controlled at the end of Bands of Mourning just doesn't seem like something Autonomy or one of her avatars could do because of intent.

I don't think it was mind control personally. I think it was someone killed, and the corpse is being animated. Far easier realmatically than mind control. 

[MountainKing]

So I was reading some WoB's and it turns out that Ruin and any multi shard that Ruin is apart of are the only shards that can directly talk clearly to people via holes and cracks in the spiritweb.

Quote

Cadmium (paraphrased)

We've seen someone with a Hemalurgic spike communicate or under the control of Ruin or Harmony... Can other Shards communicate or control those individuals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Good Question. Yes...  They can certainly communicate...

Cadmium (paraphrased)

To what extent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not to the extent that Ruin did. The others could communicate but it'd be vague or faint, not as direct as Ruin was. He connects to us, well, them through the little bit of Preservation that he had or could touch. Because the spike pierces the soul.

Cadmium (paraphrased)

What about on other planets than Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It'd work the same way. but again probably vaguer or fainter. Might go unnoticed.

source

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing Somethinfr

[Calderis]

That's from 2015, and considering some more recent in book developments on Roshar I don't think that holds true.

It may still be the case depending on how circumstances play, but I don't know. 

[Bigmikey357]

Is there a WOB that tells us how long it takes for a Shard to Invest a planet? Is the process faster if the Shard taps into the Investiture that was allocated by Adonolasium pre-shattering?

[Spoolofwhool]

On 7/5/2018 at 11:22 PM, goody153 said:

I can accept that shards could whisper through the hemalurgic holes if Ruin wasn't contesting it's still holes in the soul after all but contesting ? We already have preservation's example for that who was basically the closest who could contest Ruin but couldn't.

And the act of talking is literally just talking it's not against "Preservation". 

As we saw in Secret History, holding the full power of Preservation prevented Kelsier from talking to people with damaged spiritwebs because the power of Preservation automatically tried to fill and repair the spiritwebs the moment he touched them, thereby removing the holes which he could use to talk to them. Probably with more control or practice he could avoid that from happening, but naturally, the power prevents his own efforts from talking to people. Another shard wouldn't have the power trying to do this automatically, so could speak or otherwise influence the person through the cracks.