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[OB] The sudden ease of becoming a radiant

49 posts in this topic

Note that Lopen's arm was restored by stormlight healing, this indicates that he on some level did not accept his injury even though he pretended to. He still saw himself as a person who should have two arms.

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Lopens stuff seems like too much comedy for me. His spren felt kind of irritating, and while his "becoming Radiant scene" was funny, it felt a bit too jokey for my tastes. He doesn't really feel like a leader either.

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I believe Lopen is a "standard Radiant" broken by his life. Like others said, the arm's healing proves he didn't accepted the lost of the arm and he lived until now as a "unwhole man" from his own view.

@maxal Thanks for remember me about the "other ways", maybe your option is possible (i don't agree but it could be), my headcanon is about the children. Children have not fully fixed Soul yet (for me) and the Investiture could seep into those flexible souls. In this context, I believe it's what happened with Chibi-Shallan bonding Pattern so young.

Edited by Yata
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17 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Radiants are based on the concept of old school Knights. Blade, Plate and Horse, by Brandon's own words.

Shardblade, Shardplate... And Ryshadium?

Edited by Leyrann
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54 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Shardblade, Shardplate... And Ryshadium?

Yes. They're sometimes called "the third shard", apparently. (Coppermind says that's in OB ch10.)

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Lopen might just be an inherently loopy person.  It's a somewhat common theme in literature, those with a natural affinity to magic/otherworldly powers seem a little strange to those around them and less "grounded in reality".  Lopen just might have one of those personalities, a convivial and highly functioning kind of strangeness.  When you think about it his constant cheerfulness from the moment he was assigned to Bridge 4 isn't really a "normal" reaction.  I'm not saying it's bad by any means to remain constantly upbeat, but his personality and thought process seem a bit "off" from the typical human norm.

There's also the possibility that his Herdazian blood has something to do with it?  Herdazians are a mix of both humans and Singers (shown by their hard crystalline fingernails), and Singers have a natural affinity to bonding spren.  Perhaps his small amount of Singer heritage makes his soulweb able to bond a spren without necessitating a traumatic event?

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Relevant WOB about Lopen (link):

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What did Lopen do to get on a bridge crew?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Lopen? Someone just thought he was annoying. Lopen, he's like the only person in Bridge Four who's, like, not a criminal. It's just like, "Oh, that stupid Herdazian, send him to a bridge crew, get him away." He's legitimately, like-- all of them have deep, dark, tragic pasts, but not The Lopen.

I have a feeling that Lopen is a the kind of genuinely happy person that is so cheerful he gets on everyone's nerves. Even a missing arm can't bring him down. He probably attracted a spren with some serious positive thinking. "I am a Knight Radiant!" And then he was.

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In the end, it is all about the spren choosing the human... And Rua and Lopen just fit. It makes sense.

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When it comes to Lopen, the real question is "will he progress?"

It's cool that he attracted a spren  (why wouldnt he?) and all but if he cannot evolve as a a person he's not getting to the 5th oath.

Edited by Nymeros
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1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

When it comes to Lopen, the real question is "will he progress?"

It's cool that he attracted a spren  (why wouldnt he?) and all but if he cannot evolve as a a person he's not getting to the 5th oath.

I agree that that's a more interesting question. Also: it applies to every Radiant.

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9 hours ago, Starla said:

Relevant WOB about Lopen (link):

I have a feeling that Lopen is a the kind of genuinely happy person that is so cheerful he gets on everyone's nerves. Even a missing arm can't bring him down. He probably attracted a spren with some serious positive thinking. "I am a Knight Radiant!" And then he was.

Ah thanks for posting the WoB, I have been looking for it. I think it says it loud and clear: Lopen is not broken nor does he have a dark past, but he did open his mind to a Nahel Bond. He's the one example of this "other way", but we can't expect this method to become mainstream nor to be recuperated for other more important characters. 

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13 hours ago, maxal said:

Ah thanks for posting the WoB, I have been looking for it. I think it says it loud and clear: Lopen is not broken nor does he have a dark past

So, I like this idea, but IMHO Sanderson forgot that when Lopen first appears in WoK, it is mentioned that:

"this man was smiling, though he wore a slave's mark on his head. This mark is old, Kaladin thought."

So, it seems that Lopen had been a slave for a significant amount of time before he was sent to the bridges. It is unclear whether this "mark" was a brand - which would mean that he did commit a crime, or at least was convicted for one, or a tatoo that would mean that he was enslaved due to debt. Either way, it contradicts the lack of prior hardships and dark moments implied by the this WoB. It also makes me wonder why his "mother" and "cousins" didn't help him when it happened. Admittedly, being a slave needn't always be awful, but still.

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It may be important to point out Lyn and Skar's interactions on the training plateau. Up to this POV, neither of them were able to inhale stormlight. It wasn't until Lyn changed her motivations from wanting to have the powers, or basically be part of the cool kids club, to wanting to help that she was able to inhale stormlight and have access to her powers. Same with Skar, up to that point he was primarily concerned with being left behind. This would imply that the primary requirement to join the Knights Radiant, whether as a squire or with your own Nahel bond, it is not clear, is to have an earnest desire to do what the orders do.

I had always interpreted Syl's bit about the radiants being broken as an implication that the radiants were more honorable because they stood up even though they were broken. That basically, the qualifications were exhibiting the attributes the spren valued, but that a good way to develop those attributes that they so highly valued was to go through very hard times. Kind of like how a really, really good sales job may require expertise in a certain field, but that what would be a huge plus in your favor is a degree in that field, but I know a man who earned a job like that but did not go to school for that.

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Though I fully understand all that has been said on why we need more radiants and how it makes sense, I do understand the feeling. Kaladin is this amazing person who in return for his outstanding honor "earned or was granted" amazing abilities. In WOK there were times I even remember Dalinar looking "down" at the dark eyed man and I was thinking, you are in for a suprise! Now many other people have it, that sense of uniqueness or being tied as "the one" is gone. I hope there is still much more for Kaladin on the next storylines.

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34 minutes ago, Rebeca said:

Though I fully understand all that has been said on why we need more radiants and how it makes sense, I do understand the feeling. Kaladin is this amazing person who in return for his outstanding honor "earned or was granted" amazing abilities. In WOK there were times I even remember Dalinar looking "down" at the dark eyed man and I was thinking, you are in for a suprise! Now many other people have it, that sense of uniqueness or being tied as "the one" is gone. I hope there is still much more for Kaladin on the next storylines.

Exactly. 

Other people becoming radiant makes sense now though, but even just the fact that Kaladin has accomplished as far as the third ideal without any prior knowledge about what is going on and just months after his near-suicide experience at the chasms, turning back and holding on with sheer will and determination makes him stand far out. Brandon himself wrote him this way. Maybe too overpowered. But it feels like there should be a difference between Kal and others in this radiant bussiness.

I too hope that we get his next swearing ideal scenes at least as exciting as the third one in the next books.

Oh and now that we are on the topic, what does 5th ideal get you? 4th gets you armor, right? Do windrunners even have the 5th?

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I was surprised by the squire to radiant path, I didn't expect it and at first I thought that was just cheating. But Urithiru wasn't a mental facility, our main cast has particularly dark and troubled stories, which I don't expect to repeat. I'd find it weird if all Radiants were similarly broken to the extreme.

About people deserving to be Radiants, it's up for the spren to decide based on what they see from squires. Now I think it's a good enough method to swiftly build the numbers for each Order, what our main cast needed to overcome shouldn't repeat for most Radiants. I think part of the issue you have and I did, too, is that we are used to more foreshadowing for major things like this, so it felt too sudden. We fell for the myth and legends about the Radiants and the reality was far more mundane.

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On 22/1/2018 at 1:04 AM, Steeldancer said:

Undeserving? Are you IMPLYING TALN IS UNDESERVING OF SOMETHING THAT HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED YET?????? 

Taln is the purple unicorn, that can never be put up as a rule to follow when drawing conclusions. He is the exception to everything, not the rule :P.

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7 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, I like this idea, but IMHO Sanderson forgot that when Lopen first appears in WoK, it is mentioned that:

"this man was smiling, though he wore a slave's mark on his head. This mark is old, Kaladin thought."

So, it seems that Lopen had been a slave for a significant amount of time before he was sent to the bridges. It is unclear whether this "mark" was a brand - which would mean that he did commit a crime, or at least was convicted for one, or a tatoo that would mean that he was enslaved due to debt. Either way, it contradicts the lack of prior hardships and dark moments implied by the this WoB. It also makes me wonder why his "mother" and "cousins" didn't help him when it happened. Admittedly, being a slave needn't always be awful, but still.

Lopen also lost a limb in addition to being made a slave. Whether your past is dark or traumatic or damaging is a matter of your perspective. If Lopen rolls with and is fine, its not really that dark.

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9 hours ago, Isilel said:

So, I like this idea, but IMHO Sanderson forgot that when Lopen first appears in WoK, it is mentioned that:

"this man was smiling, though he wore a slave's mark on his head. This mark is old, Kaladin thought."

So, it seems that Lopen had been a slave for a significant amount of time before he was sent to the bridges. It is unclear whether this "mark" was a brand - which would mean that he did commit a crime, or at least was convicted for one, or a tatoo that would mean that he was enslaved due to debt. Either way, it contradicts the lack of prior hardships and dark moments implied by the this WoB. It also makes me wonder why his "mother" and "cousins" didn't help him when it happened. Admittedly, being a slave needn't always be awful, but still.

Slaves aren't automatically mistreated and becoming one doesn't imply a dark crime. I believe it is stated a darkeyed could be made slave merely for falling to pay out debts. Lopen's reasons for having been made a slave might be light or it could be he volunteered to pay off debts for his family members. We do not know the full story, but we do know it isn't dark nor tragic. I found the WoB was coherent with how Lopen has been written as a character. It also explains why he as chosen to be one of the new knights. I initially blamed fan service, but upon reading the WoB stating there are "other means" to open oneself to the Nahel bond than brokenness, I figured this was his purpose.

With Lopen, Brandon is showing the lighter side of the Radiants, he is showing how someone genuinely happy, cheerful, optimistic can become a knight, if he puts himself within the right mind frame. Arguably, I do not expect Lopen's way to be the most prevalent way, just something which sometimes happen with a few rare individuals.

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:56 AM, borg said:

I always liked thinking about the Knights Radiant as powerful chosen ones in ancient legends. It is said that they were not perfect but most of them were broken at some point (as regularly emphasized). But I get the impression that they were not ordinary. Not everyone could become a radiant even if they wanted to. You didn't only need to say the Words but you had to be worthy. 

The journey of Kaladin was detailed. We read his childhood, hardships he went through, bridge days, slave days, his personality. So his transformation felt natural and pacing made sense. The words came in order and it was not easy to say them sincerely. Afterall, being able to use stormlight or bonding a spren shouldn't be too easy, considering the power it grants.

So my question is, what do you think about the requisites before becoming a full radiant? Do you think Radiants should be rarer or is it more fun to have more of them around? 

I personally didn't even like the squire thing. Being able to suck in stormlight after just a few field trips to Shattered Plains with prof Kaladin... Seemed to undermine how hard it is to become a Radiant. You could say that Bridge 4 pushed through same nightmare as Kaladin in bridge days but the difference was that Kaladin changed those hopeless men and decided to protect them no matter what in that hellish situation. None of them even came close to what Kaladin did in those days. Following him is not the same thing. But now, they swear ideals left and right, when did Teft even said the second ideal before he said the third? It just feels too quick or even not justified. I like Bridge 4 characters but I don't think everyone needs to become a Radiant and they shouldn't.

What do you guys think?

O7KLjow.png

I don't think that it is easier.  I think we've had three viewpoint characters with literally 1000 pages each book focused on multiple decades of thier lives... And so we know alot more details about their journey from birth... To broken... To radiant.   We know no where as much details as any of the other radiants beyond those three.  It's just the reality of the format.  We don't know nearly as much about either lift or szeth... But I don't assume it was any easier for them than the three viewpoint characters.

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I would expand what @maxal said.

Also if I don't believe is the Lopen's case, someone could "broke" by sheer happiness or similar.

What the Investiture needs in Cosmere (and this extends to Roshar and Nahel Bond) is a pathway into the Soul, the famous "cracks" but in theory not only negative Extreme experiences crack the Soul but also the positive Ones.... It's Just extremely rare for that to happen.

 

There is another Cosmere's Story where we have a WoB about that...I will not post here because It's spoiler for the SA subforum

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26 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

What story @Yata?

Non SA content in the spoiler box: 

Spoiler

I believe Yata is referring to Mistborn. Kelsier remarks that it's possible to Snap from positive emotions (although it's less common).

 

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51 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

What story @Yata?

It's from a Non SA's Annotation: 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

 

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