Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14 Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 499). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So, my though that Cusciesh is voltron spren has now been pretty well debunked, I would like to propose a grander, more elaborate theory/thought. Based on the epigraph above, we see that there are usually 3 Bondsmiths at a time, regardless of how large other orders may be or not. It may be that the Stormfather can bond more than one Radiant at a time given his power level, but I'm not inclined to think so. In tWoK/WoR, we hear of only 3 Spren who are very large and very in charge of what they have going on. The Stormfather: proven to Nahel bond with Bondsmiths Cusciesh: definitely spren, probably related to the KR the Nightwatcher: gives the "old magic" but we don't know what that means really and presumed to be a Spren My theory is that each of the 3 bondsmiths are bonded to one of these Spren, and that in some way, these 3 spren are similar in the way that honorspren or cryptics are different. I.e. not all Honorspren are like Syl in temperment, nor all Cryptics like Pattern. I don't have a lot to back it up really, other than that there are 3 very large Spren floating around Roshar and there are only 3 Bondsmiths at a time. Only other mention of Bondsmiths shows that they had a unique ability and they alone could address the divine duties and natures of the Heralds. I think that is because they are bonded to the 3 single most powerful/knowledgeable/oldest Spren on Roshar So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day , but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18 Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 675). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Well, there it is... let me know your thoughts!! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taveren Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 wouldn't the stormfather have died with all the other spren when the radiants quit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 That is why I feel the size/power of the Spren matters. These 3 would have been able to survive that split whereas the others perished, it would explain why the Stormfather is a little bit crazy/broken (per Syl). Perhaps Dalinar's bonding with him will help stabilize him in the same way that completing the Shaod returned the Seon's to sanity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taveren Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 the stormfather says that he didn't want to be boned and risk getting killed so it seems like he could die like any other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydrogenAlpha Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Maybe he not dying is connected to how he won't grant Dalinar a Shardblade. With no physical connection to this realm maybe there is no danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 "Their spren" and not their sprens. I think that the stormfather multiple radiants argument have some merit. =) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sprens is not a word. Spren is like moose, can be singular or plural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gagylpus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) In the next sentence it also refers to the Bondsmiths' spren with the plural 'them'... and we know it isn't a gender neutral singular 'they' because the Stormfather is clearly referred to as male. Unless... maybe that 'them' refers to the Bondsmiths themselves, and 'their spren was understood to be specific' indicates that in fact all Bondsmiths were bonded to the Stormfather? Edited March 7, 2014 by Gagylpus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) We can still tell "spren" is singular in that sentence, because it's followed by "was". Also there's this, which suggests Bondsmiths are connected to the Ideals: So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18 Ishar was somehow responsible for creating the Nahel bond, or deciding the forms it could take. Taln calls Shallan "one of Ishar's Knights" even though she's not in his Order, and then there's this: But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. —From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4 This all sounds related to the Stormfather, who we see accepting Ideals. Edited March 7, 2014 by Morsk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sprens is not a word. Spren is like moose, can be singular or plural. Ops. English ruled me in this one =) Thanks for the correction =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azul Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) So we know there are 3 Bondsmith (or were) and they had specific spren. ch 44 epigraph But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific We know from Pattern that some spren survived the betrayal of the Knights. ch 75 There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. Can't find the exact quote but we know that the Stormfather is a large spren who is the congnitive representation of the Almighty aka Honor. The Nightwatcher is very likely the same but for Cultivation. In Dalinar's flashback in Way of Kings ch 19 “Three Gods, Heb,” the woman whispered. It seems likely there are 3 major spren and these are the ones that bonded with Bondsmith. The Stormfather, The Nightwatcher and one more. The question is who is the third? I doubt its connected to Odium. Was there another Shard on Roshar? I seem to recall that that all spren are either made from Honor, from Cultivation or a Mix? so could this third Major spren be a representation of that mix ? Thoughts? Edited March 7, 2014 by Azul 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Considering how relatively late I finished Words of Radiance, I am surprised I can actually contribute to this thread! I agree with the core idea - that the Bondsmiths bind with... irregular spren. I like the idea, it makes sense, and I have further support for it. I say this because the first thing that came to mind when I read the premise was Rock's story about how the Horneaters came to live on their Peaks (see Chapter 46: Patriots for reference). Rock talks about how the Horneater tana'kai, their "king but more," went to the gods to plead for help - and acknowledges that to his people the spren are gods. The story references the god of the trees, the god of the waters, and the god of the mountains, Cultivation, Cusicesh, and the Stormfather. Now, I admit that the Stormfather, of all things, doesn't quite fit the pattern as mountains and highstorms are not exactly the same thing (and I originally though the story mentions a god of the winds, which had me all excited... turns out it doesn't), but I still think it fits. Lore changes over time. Hell, the Stormfather himself could have been the godspren* of the mountains (or land, or earth, or whatever), but once Honor was Splintered and he absorbed much of the Shard's power, his... focus could've shifted. He does readily and easily communicate with Dalinar essentially on the top of the world. Without needing a highstorm. * I am coining this term. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Horrible Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 My problem with the theory is that while the quotes say 3 is quite a normal number of bondsmith, I get the impression it can go either up or down from that. The reason given as for why there are a small number of bondsmiths doesn't mention the lack of spren. I do agree though that the important spren seem to like bondsmiths (although I wouldn't really want to be the one who bonded nightwatcher ). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think it's important to note that the text doesn't say "around three," it says "...three, which number was not uncommon for them." Normally I might use those interchangeably, but in this case it could be interpreted as "usually three, but sometimes fewer." Maybe there were periods when Cusicesh wasn't bonded, for example. It's also possible that there are more godspren out there, and it was just those three that were willing to bond with Radiants. Or maybe they were all the Radiants knew about. The Age of the Silver Kingdoms might have been a golden age for Roshar, but that doesn't mean they knew everything then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Horrible Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sure, it could well be interpretted as such, however because the explanation for their low numbers didn't include a shortage of spren I can't view this theory (that there's only 3 available spren/bondsmith) as likely at this point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious If you read this in a special way, you could see it a mildly sarcastic remark - "oh, the Bondsmiths have only three spren, so asking them become more would be kind of funny." It's a very liberal interpretation, and even I don't buy it fully, but I like to keep my options open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azul Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Something else to keep in mind ch. 77 The book had a chapter for each order of Knights Radiant, with talk of their traditions, their abilities, and their attitudes. The author admitted that a lot of it was hearsay—the book had been written two hundred years after the Recreance, and by then facts, lore, and superstition had mixed freely. Shallan's thoughts when reading her copy of Words of Radiance. So you can't take quotes from it as exact facts. The Churck by this time is likely trying to distance itself from the Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Yes, I am also convinced that Stormfather, Nightwatcher and probably Cusicesh are the 3 bondsmith's spren. Looks like I have some contributions here, too... 1) Stormfather and several other spren survived the Recreance. This is because, just like with Dalinar, Stormfather never crossed from Shadesmar to Physical. When a spren "dies", basically it loses his mind because there is no more bond. But if the spren is in Shadesmar, this does not happen. Hence, even if Dalinar breaks his oaths, Stormfather is safe. The downside is, of course, that the bond is ... incomplete. The spren does not get in the physical (I can't see actually what;s the bad part about this, but there must be one, for the spren), and the human does not get the Sprenshard. Communication is difficult between the human and the spren, and probably there is no mind-to-mind connection as we see with Kal and Syl (Syl knows exactly what Kal wants her to be when fighting Szeth). The other spren that survived were probably the skybreaker's spren, and the Nightwatcher. 2) Nightwatcher is probably Cultivation's equivalent of Stormfather. As we don't see Stormfather very ... giving ... with humans (which are, after all, Honor's children), Nightwatcher is also not that ... giving. Or actually, too giving - she gives you extra stuff (curses too) My theory is that Nightwatcher was bonded to a Bondsmith the same way as the Stormfather, and survived the Recreance (especially since Cultivation could see the fortune). 3) Cusicesh ... this is a more difficult one ... I would say that Cusicesh is a big Adonalsium spren. One bondsmith was bonded to Cusicesh, too, probably for the humans to have representatives to all "Gods". "During the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones". This might mean that one spren was all the time in the physical, probably Cusicesh. Then the recreance happened, and Cusicesh is reliving that moment all over again, every day, at the same hour as it happened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Thanks for the support Argent and linking in the thoughts of the Horneaters and their "creation myths" to my theory. I like the idea that there are 3 godspren as you term them. the Stormfather could well have been the spren of the mountains before Honor passed and then he took up what little of his mantle remained, Storms and mountains are very connected, especially peaks where the horneaters live. Cultivation as the godspren of the trees and Cusciesh as the godspren of water both very much make sense. I still doubt that Cusicesh is a spren of Adonalsium, but rather... we know that spren are a blend of Honor/Cultivation, rather they are actually splinters. Which means that Honor/Cultivation would have consciously created them before honor died, otherwise how would a still living Cultivation merge some of her investiture to create the spren in differing % with the dead splinters of honor? Maybe it's possible, but I doubt it. I think they were conscious creations of Honor/Cultivation. As with my previous theory about the faces on Cusicesh (that they were voltron spren showing the faces of their own bondmates), I agree that Cusicesh is reliving the Recreance in some way still, and that those faces are still the faces of the previous KR. The other possibility is that they are the possible KR on Roshar at the moment. I.e. those who fit the bill for different spren who may want to try and bond with them... So for the big 3 here is my thought. They are all much more massive splinters of Honor/Cultivation than other spren just with different balances of the 2. Stormfather: we'll go with 75% Honor/25% Cultivation (maybe higher percentage of honor as he seems VERY focused on the Recreance and not trusting humans anymore Cusicesh: I'm thinking this is a blend of 50/50 Nightwatcher: this one is more 75 Cultivation//25 Honor. In order to cultivate something, you may have to prune it, so her boon/curses would fit with that I think. A clip here and a little blessing there encourages growth in a certain direction. Think Myagi and the Bonsai trees Thank you to Azul for finding the quote from ch. 75 (True Glory) about the Stormfather surviving the Recreance (which would imply that he WAS bonded at the time). I'm not sure why he evinces fear at Dalinar trying to bond with him, but I think that has to do with his slightly broken mind. I really hope that through the bond with Dalinar the Stormfather's sanity returns to normal and that is a huge benefit to Dalinar and the burgeoning KR. Can you imagine if the Stormfather stays in his Marvin the Depressed robot state for the next 3 books? "Ok, take your bond human, you're only going to die anyway while I sit here with my massive brain and watch it happen.." Glad that my thought and theory isn't crazy to everyone else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Compatible types of crazy seem normal to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think it is quite possible that there are more than 3 Honor and Cultivation-aligned megaspren. Taravangian mentions a few beings that are likely Odium aligned megaspren(and are likely the Unmade IMO) including the one that gives the Thrill... Moelech or something like that. That said I don't have a problem believing that the Bondsmiths bond a specific set of three of these. Just which ones other than the Stormfather is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 My problem with the theory is that while the quotes say 3 is quite a normal number of bondsmith, I get the impression it can go either up or down from that. The reason given as for why there are a small number of bondsmiths doesn't mention the lack of spren. This is my reading as well; it doesn't really make sense to consider the possibility of expanding the order if it wasn't possible. I have a feeling the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths relate to the oaths/Ideals themselves, based on the Ishi'Elin epigraph. Given the statement that persuading them to increase the size of their order was viewed as seditious, it certainly sounds like they have some kind of governing power (presumably over Radiants). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Did they bond highspren? Or were they bonded to another order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Did they bond highspren? Or were they bonded to another order? Highspren most likely bonded with Skybreakers. Syl claims they care about the law and the second primary attribute is just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Releaser Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Only other mention of Bondsmiths shows that they had a unique ability and they alone could address the divine duties and natures of the Heralds. I think that is because they are bonded to the 3 single most powerful/knowledgeable/oldest Spren on Roshar personally I think that Nohadon was a Bondsmith. Which would make sense as he was known as the King of Kings or something like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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