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Awakening Can Make Returned...Sort Of


Silus - Shard of Flame

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Okay, so Vasher, discussing Awakening (with Vivenna I think?), says that there are four kinds of Awakening that he is aware of.

-Awakening of inanimate objects without intelligence: This is default Awakening, what we are usually referring to when we use the term.

-Awakening of deceased beings without intelligence: Lifeless.

-Awakening of inanimate objects WITH intelligence: The process that created Nightblood.

-Awakening of deceased WITH intelligence: Returned. This is the only type of Awakening that cannot be performed by humans...right?

I don't think so, for the most part.

My theory is this: If you can gather enough breaths to equal the volume of a Divine Breath (enough to reach the Fifth Heightening) and use that to animate a corpse, you could create a Returned. After a fashion.

The difference here is subtle, but key. You wouldn't be bringing that person back to life, restoring their memories and personality (which only Endowment can do), you would be creating a new personality, in much the same way you would create an object like Nightblood, with a Command (and whatever else went into making Nightblood). Also, the Breaths would not be a Splinter and would be unable to perform the miraculous acts that a True Returned can perform (e.g., growing back the God King's tongue).

The one thing I can't make a real guess at is whether or not this Pseudo Returned would need to consume Breaths to stay alive like the True Returned. The one piece of evidence I can think of is that Nightblood requires Breath to use its power, which might reflect on how a Pseudo Returned would function.

A rebuttal to this that I can think of is Arsteel, and how Brandon might use him as a potential viewpoint for the WB sequel. This, and various statements in the annontations, hint that normal Lifeless have form of intelligence on their own. But my response to that would be that what I am referring to would be something else, creating an intelligence at least as complex as Nightblood.

Responses!

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I think you're probably correct that it would be possible to give a dead body sentience similar to Nightblood. But keep in mind that the creation of Lifeless used to cost significantly more breaths than it does now, since Vasher and the other four researched a more efficient way to create them and came up with a way to preserve the body for longer. So it might no be possible. At least I think I'm remembering that correctly. In any case, I think that would count more as an awakening of an inanimate object than the awakening of a deceased person, and thus would have the same problems of normal lifeless like decomposition. Thus they would have a finite lifespan because they're made of organic material. If you're going to invest such an amount of breath in an object, you'll probably want it to last longer than a few years (which I imagine is the lifespan of an average lifeless, I don't remember the actual lifespan) and would probably rather use materials (such as metal and stone) that won't decompose like a corpse would.

Edited by Zayde
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I think you're probably correct that it would be possible to give a dead body sentience similar to Nightblood. But keep in mind that the creation of Lifeless used to cost significantly more breaths than it does now, since Vasher and the other four researched a more efficient way to create them and came up with a way to preserve the body for longer. So it might no be possible. At least I think I'm remembering that correctly. In any case, I think that would count more as an awakening of an inanimate object than the awakening of a deceased person, and thus would have the same problems of normal lifeless like decomposition. Thus they would have a finite lifespan because they're made of organic material. If you're going to invest such an amount of breath in an object, you'll probably want it to last longer than a few years (which I imagine is the lifespan of an average lifeless, I don't remember the actual lifespan) and would probably rather use materials (such as metal and stone) that won't decompose like a corpse would.

The Breath used in creating Lifeless also preserves the body, as evidenced by Brandon's statement that Lifeless even have the ability to heal somewhat. I don't think they decay like corpses. The damage that destroys them is the normal wear and tear of life; living humans also experience that to some extent.

Interestingly, in the most recent annotation, Brandon said that Jewels is taking Clod to Yesteel to see if he can do anything for him. Given what Vivenna saw, it'll be interesting to see what comes of that.

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But then what was the reason for using ichoralcohol? I was under the impression that's what was preventing the body's decay.

My guess is that Ichor Alcohol decreases the "overhead" of reanimating the body in the first place.

Remember, before Ichor Alcohol, it took 50 breaths to create a lifeless. 50! Also remember Vasher's little lecture: how close the object is to a living form determines how much breath it takes to awaken, but not what it can do once it's been awoken. Thus if corpses would fall apart less quickly with Ichor alcohol, it takes less breath to awaken them, and once they've been Awoken, the properties may be very similar to the previous kind.

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The difference here is subtle, but key. You wouldn't be bringing that person back to life, restoring their memories and personality (which only Endowment can do), you would be creating a new personality, in much the same way you would create an object like Nightblood, with a Command (and whatever else went into making Nightblood). Also, the Breaths would not be a Splinter and would be unable to perform the miraculous acts that a True Returned can perform (e.g., growing back the God King's tongue).

I don't think that man-made Returned would be different at all from other "True" Returned. In both cases the body looses all memory of its former life. And like Lifeless, in both cases the bodies still retain skills from their former life. Clod, for example, still remembered how to sword fight and Lightsong still remembered how to juggle.

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That's more muscle memory than anything else, which would be a Physical aspect, rather than a Cognitive or Spiritual one, which is what makes a Returned not dead.

But do Returned have cognitive or spiritual aspects? It seemed (to me at least) that Lightsong got his visions from speaking to Endowment after his death. It did not seem that his visions were therefore innate in him simply because he was a Returned. Though I will admit that this is merely a guess on my part.

It is my thought that Lifeless are the same as Returned, but simply do not have enough life (i.e. biochroma) to appear sentient. Consider this, if you give a dead animal/human biochroma then you cannot get it back. Vasher said this was because the creature is so close to a living body that the biochroma "sticks" to it. But couldn't you say this about Returned (or for that matter a living human) as well. Perhaps if a Lifeless had enough consciousness then, like a human or a Returned, it could give the biochroma back to someone else. But what makes Returned, Lifeless, and objects with biochroma distinctly different from living humans is that they all cannot continue to exist without biochroma. IMHO it feels like the only difference between Lifeless and Returned is simply the amount of biochroma each has.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The difference, as I see it, is that it doesn't seem that Breath can create sentience on its own, seeing as there was special circumstances necessary to create Nightblood, I see these pseudo-Returned kind of the same way.

Didn't brandon confirm that returned are Slivers? I thought i'd read that repeatedly here. Having a portion of endowment's power has to be very different than merely using the magic system generated by the Shard's presence.

My question would be, given you can give a Uberlifeless the fifth heightening, would it be able to use it's seperate breaths? We know returned cannot give away their deistic breath, without performing their one-off miracle, but can use any additional breaths that they've not consumed yet.

Also, I do not think that the Uberlifeless would need to consume a breath as it is not a piece of endowment, and thus wouldn't need to replenish.

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  • 2 weeks later...

No, I don't think that's what happening with Arsteel. Remember? Vasher gave him a wealth of of breath before dying. No, I think his more responsiveness is due to being around people that he knows, being familiar with being back from the dead, and having a Faux-Returned body (like Vasher)

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  • 2 months later...

Hard to say, what with the shapeshifting.

You might be right, but even so, we know that if a Drab were to Return, it would not be a Returned as we know them. What, then, happens if a Returned is Lifeless'd? Does some semblance remain?

Since it seems that nobody in T'Telir, even Vasher, has given much thought to the minds of Lifeless remaining (though we have it on good authority that they do remain), it is unlikely that anyonebody within the series could answer this question. Yet.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

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I might be misremembering, but I believe Brandon has said that Siri could use her royal breath to transform like the returned do.

edit: couldn't find it in the Brandonology... I might just be remembering a theory someone posted

Edited by Bremen
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I might be misremembering, but I believe Brandon has said that Siri could use her royal breath to transform like the returned do.

edit: couldn't find it in the Brandonology... I might just be remembering a theory someone posted

I remember that as well, but couldn't find it.

And its Royal Locks, not Royal Breath.

However I did find the following:

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

This factoid about the Royal Locks should be one of several hints about the lineage of the Idrian crown. There is something odd about their heritage.

...

...

...

There's also a clue in that hair, one that Vasher mentions. Because of it, and her heritage, and something very mysterious in the past, every member of the royal line has a fraction of a divine Returned Breath in them. That makes it much easier for them to learn to Awaken than a normal person.

source=https://sites.google.com/site/brandonothology/brandonothology/part-1

Graendal: A question that's been on my mind for a while. If Returned can't have children, how are Siri and Vivenna descended from one?

Excellent question. One I have to RAFO. When I was writing WRBRKR, I was planning on two books.

I seeded two questions to be answered in the next book. One was the origin of the royal family.

The second was how Vasher was able to survive while hiding his divine Breath. I will answer these questions.

Eventually. (It has to do with restoring Breath and life to the child while still in the womb.).

Edited by Catalyst21
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By "royal breath" I simply meant her heritage passed down from Vo. We know there is something funky going on with the hair, and Denth, a returned, losses control of his hair when he dies. So its not exactly impossible.

So will Siri or Vivenna inherit?

I suspect the "secret" to the Returned having children has to do with giving up their divine breath so the child can live. Why this should translate into the descendants inheriting a portion of divine breath is beyond me. Why don't normal people healed by divine breath receive the same benefit? There's probably something more to it /shock

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By "royal breath" I simply meant her heritage passed down from Vo. We know there is something funky going on with the hair, and Denth, a returned, losses control of his hair when he dies. So its not exactly impossible.

So will Siri or Vivenna inherit?

I suspect the "secret" to the Returned having children has to do with giving up their divine breath so the child can live. Why this should translate into the descendants inheriting a portion of divine breath is beyond me. Why don't normal people healed by divine breath receive the same benefit? There's probably something more to it /shock

Don't forget that when Breath is transferred, the cognitive intent matters a lot, as does the Command. It's possible that the default behavior is healing, but if you know the right Commands, it can become "Restore a half-Returned baby to life" instead.

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Having a child can't involve the death of the returned the God-kings have had children and then passed the collection of breaths on to said child, if the Returned had to give up their breath to have a child they wouldnt be able to do that.

Also I think the Returned breath does affect the returned body in some way, otherwise it wouldnt be genetic and the royal line wouldnt be any different from any other line, but there must be some relation to the spiritual or cognitive aspect as well that got passed on... so Im really not sure whats going on there.

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Having a child can't involve the death of the returned the God-kings have had children and then passed the collection of breaths on to said child, if the Returned had to give up their breath to have a child they wouldnt be able to do that.

Also I think the Returned breath does affect the returned body in some way, otherwise it wouldnt be genetic and the royal line wouldnt be any different from any other line, but there must be some relation to the spiritual or cognitive aspect as well that got passed on... so Im really not sure whats going on there.

from my post above, quoting the Warbreaker annotations:

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

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That's not entirely true. At the Alloy Q&A the question was asked "Can Drabs Return", and the answer is "Drabs will not become Returned. There's something else that can happen there, but they will not become Returned." That is, if I remember that right. I wish someone had a recording of that interview so I could make a transcription....

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