[OB] Awakening and Elsecalling for Worldhoppers

[Llarimar]

WARNING:  Contains spoilers for Warbreaker, Mistborn and Elantris.  

Okay, so there are two different ideas I've been thinking about, and I want to try and combine them in one thread, just because they're vaguely related and I don't want to make different threads.

First of all, I've been thinking about which ability we've seen so far (Allomancy, Surgebinding, etc.) would be the most valuable to a Wordhopper in the lager cosmere.  Although I don't often think of Awakening as a very powerful ability, I've started to think that it might be the most useful to a Worldhopper, because unlike most of the other abilities we've seen, it doesn't require a constant source of energy.  If you're an Allomancer, you need to carry with you a little sack full of metal vials everywhere you go (which could run out), and if you're a Surgebinder you need to constantly have access to Stormlight.  Awakening, however, does not require a constant source of energy - you always have the same amount of Breath with you, no matter how often you use it.  This also allows characters like Azure/Vivenna to easily conceal their identity as a Worldhopper - she doesn't have to constantly be sneaking around, asking for "more metal" or "more spheres," because she always has a consistent supply of Breath with her.  The only other power I can think of that does not require a constant source of energy is Feruchemy, and even then I think Awakening would be more useful to a Worldhopper, because Feruchemy requires you to inconveniently "store" senses constantly before you can amplify them, while Awakening does not.  And AonDor (I think that's what it's called) on Sel would also not be very helpful to a Worldhopper, because you have to be on Sel for it to work (since it's based on geography).  

On a different (but slightly related) note, how would Surgebinding work in the larger cosmere?  I feel like it may be the most powerful cosmere ability, but the problem is that it requires a constant supply of Stormlight, which is a serious downside.  I ask this because while I was debating what was the most powerful Worldhopping ability, I decided that it might be Elsecalling, because the Surge of Transportation allows you to travel into the Cognitive Realm and back.  Assuming that this Surge works on other planets, this could be a huge asset to Worldhoppers - they wouldn't have to sneak around Perpendicularities to enter the Physical Realm.  If Jasnah became a Worldhopper (which I really want to happen), she could travel to the CR and back whenever she pleased.  However, the problem is that Elsecalling requires a constant supply of Stormlight, which Jasnah would surely run out of within a week or so if she left Roshar.

So to summarize my two thoughts:

What do you think would be the most powerful ability to a Worldhopper?  Do you agree that it would be Awakening?

Would Elsecalling possibly be the most powerful ability to a Worldhopper, because it allows access to the CR?  And how would Elsecallers and other Surgebinders get around the problem of having to carry large amounts of slowly-fading Stormlight wherever they go?  

 

[Andy92]

I'm gonna spoiler tag all of this for the other books since this is a Stormlight forum. 

Spoiler

I would think being a Mistborn is still pretty useful to a Worldhopper. You do have to carry little vials of metal, but the metal can come from any planet, unlike Stormlight which is only something that's recharged through the highstorms on Roshar. 

Awakening is only unlimited if you retrieve all the breaths you use every time you give a command. If something happened over time where you didn't always recover all of the breaths you used, then you'd have to return to Nalthis to get more. 

 

[Palindrome]

According to Brandon we are only halfway through (chronologically) the cosmere in stormlight. Also, we have seen worldhoppers from different times throughout stormlight. So, I think it is reasonable to say that Jasnah could become a new worldhopper.  

[Llarimar]

50 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

 

  Hide contents

Awakening is only unlimited if you retrieve all the breaths you use every time you give a command. If something happened over time where you didn't always recover all of the breaths you used, then you'd have to return to Nalthis to get more. 

 

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, this is true, although I feel like losing Breaths is relatively infrequent for experienced Awakeners.  It happens once to Vivenna in Warbreaker where she invests a jacket or something with tons of Breaths, and then someone snatches it away from her.  But she was just barely learning how to use Breath at the time, and really had no idea what she was doing.  I would guess that for experienced Awakeners, clumsily losing their Breath like that is something that almost never happens.  

Even on Scadrial, running out of metal is frequently a problem - it would really be a pain to constantly be looking for granules of pure metal to ingest when you're not on Scadrial.  And Stormlight is even more difficult to come by.  So I still think that Awakening is the most best power across the cosmere, because it's self-sustaining - experienced Awakeners probably almost never lose Breath.  No matter where they go, they can rely on it, and don't have to worry about "finding more" as long as they take measures to retrieve it after they've used it.  Breath is significant in this way because it is the only power we've seen that can be pulled back - even Feruchemy must be stored, then used, at which point you never get it back.  But Breath can be pulled back and reused over and over, no matter where you are in the cosmere.  

 

[Jace21]

For me it has to be (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Feruchemy, particularly a full feruchemist. You only need to carry the metal for storage, it isn't used up, so as long as you store enough you're good to go. And with the breadth of powers offered, some will be useful no matter where you go or what you are doing.

Being able to manipulate identity and connection seem like they would come in handy for a worldhopper too.

 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Palindrome said:

According to Brandon we are only halfway through (chronologically) the cosmere in stormlight.

The Stormlight Prelude is halfway through.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
He also then stated that the cosmere runs along a 10,000 year gap and that Roshar falls right into the middle of the timeline. He ended with "That should give you a perspective of the timeline and events of the desolations".

---

leftinspace
Can you tell me how long it was from the Shattering of Adonalsium to the prelude of The Way of Kings when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson
Current timeline, which I have NOT canonized, is around 6,000 years... I have not finished with my outline document yet.

The Prelude is 6,000 years into the Cosmere timeline. We're over 4,500 years past the "midway" point already.

[Llarimar]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

For me it has to be (Mistborn spoilers)

  Hide contents

Feruchemy, particularly a full feruchemist. You only need to carry the metal for storage, it isn't used up, so as long as you store enough you're good to go. And with the breadth of powers offered, some will be useful no matter where you go or what you are doing.

Being able to manipulate identity and connection seem like they would come in handy for a worldhopper too.

 

Yes, Feruchemy is a close second for me.  I think that Awakening might seem more limited than Feruchemy, but that may just be because we haven't seen very much of it.  As Vasher says in Warbreaker, they are just beginning to explore the possibilities offered by Awakening.

To get back to one of my original questions, however, and also because this is a Stormlight thread so we should probably stop talking about other cosmere worlds so in-depth, does anyone else think that the Surge of Transportation could have huge implications for the larger cosmere?  Jasnah could potentially transport to and from the Cognitive Realm at will, no matter what world she's on.  Jasnah says that going to the Cognitive Realm is easy, but leaving it is more difficult (although it is possible, as we see in WoR when she appears in Shinovar without a Perpendicularity nearby).  If Jasnah or another Elsecaller found a way to easily travel into and out of the Cognitive Realm on other planets, it could revolutionize Worldhopping - they could potentially travel to any planet, even one without a Perpendicularity.  

[Willshaping Crasher]

7 hours ago, Llarimar said:

If Jasnah or another Elsecaller found a way to easily travel into and out of the Cognitive Realm on other planets, it could revolutionize Worldhopping - they could potentially travel to any planet, even one without a Perpendicularity. 

I think we need to include Willshapers in this although we haven't seen the surges in print yet.  The surge for Transportation is the crux of this point.

As far as a second to Awakening, Feruchemy seems a better choice than Allomancy.  If you are an efficient Feruchemist, storage would constantly be in the back of your mind and you would look for opportunities at all times to store abilities.  Given an extended lifetime, I am sure this would pay off.

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, Llarimar said:

On a different (but slightly related) note, how would Surgebinding work in the larger cosmere?  I feel like it may be the most powerful cosmere ability, but the problem is that it requires a constant supply of Stormlight, which is a serious downside.  I ask this because while I was debating what was the most powerful Worldhopping ability, I decided that it might be Elsecalling, because the Surge of Transportation allows you to travel into the Cognitive Realm and back.  Assuming that this Surge works on other planets, this could be a huge asset to Worldhoppers - they wouldn't have to sneak around Perpendicularities to enter the Physical Realm.  If Jasnah became a Worldhopper (which I really want to happen), she could travel to the CR and back whenever she pleased. 

Right. Carrying around a perfect gem for stormlight storage could alleviate the problem, but there still would be a high risk of running out and getting stuck forever on a distant world. However, Lift already has a perfect ability that would allow her to surgebind everywhere and provide other surgebinders with stormlight by infusing gems for them. So, Jasnah - who I also want so badly to become a worldhopper in the end , would need to either team up with Lift, which could be exciting in all the meanings of the word, or to obtain the same ability from the Nightwatcher. I wonder if NW will still dispense boons once she is bonded to a Bondsmith, though. And what Lift's "curse" is.

Somebody who knows how to power one kind of investiture with another could find a way to power surgebinding with something else, too. Breath would be easy, but way too costly. Allomancy or Feruchemy would be much more sustainable, particularly given the ability to produce your own metals via Soulcasting, though Jasnah would need a hemalurgic spike to obtain these abilities. But then, Ghostbloods might have some... I also wonder about larkins in this context - can they eat any kind of investiture? And can they do more than eat? Transfer some of it to their masters, maybe? There must be a reason why they are often depicted together with the symbols of the Radiants. Hm, they could become a very dangerous invasive species if they ever managed to reach Nalthis and breed there.

P.S. I have been long toying with the idea that some Elsecallers or Willshapers may have simply left for the other worlds during the Recreance, instead of killing their spren. I mean, the prevention aspect of discouraging the other Nahel spren from future bonds would still be present, since once Radiants died on those other worlds, their spren would be stuck there and couldn't communicate with their brethren. And whatever they believed about their world-destroying potential, that would have been in aggregate, whereas a few surgebinders  clearly coudldn't be much of a threat. Particularly if they ran out of stormlight soon after arriving wherever.

P.S.S Could these ancient surgebinders have been the founders of (cosmere spoilers)

Spoiler

Silverlight? No world to fear destroying and the settlement must have some way to support itself, for the most part. It isn't like they can run freight trains with food and water through the Cognitive realm, or is it? Also the powers of Edgedancers,Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and  Elsecallers  don't really lend themselves to the destruction of worlds, so I  wonder why they agreed to the Recreance in the first place.

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Isilel

[The One Who Connects]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

It isn't like they can run freight trains with food and water through the Cognitive realm,

MB:SH Spoilers:

Spoiler

The Ire have a pipeline from (presumably) Sel to their Fortress. Containers still.. "contain" in the CR, so I wouldn't discount that out of hand.

Besides, the CR space between worlds is smaller than the physical space, so a CR Train system would actually be pretty efficient, all things considered. (It'd take a heck of an effort to set up, but that's trains in general)

---

As for the actual question contained within your spoiler tag, I think that location has been around longer than the Recreance(but I cannot prove that)

[MountainKing]

Isn't the rule is that any magic system can use any version of investiture, like is a surgebinder have breaths, then they could use the breaths  as replacement to stormlight, and vice versa.

[Confused]

@Llarimar, I agree with @Andy92’s comments about Mistborn. I don’t think finding metals is a problem. Ensuring purity and the proper alloy mix could be, but a Worldhopping Mistborn really should know basic metallurgy… Imagine a Full Twinborn like Marsh with an adequate metal supply!

Off-Roshar Surgebinding might not work even with Stormlight. Brandon says spren themselves lose capacity if they move beyond Roshar.

Awakening is interesting:

Spoiler

 

Until OB, it wasn’t clear Nalthians could Awaken off-Nalthis. Brandon says contradictory things about it. As I understand Awakening, it should be impossible on Roshar without a “workaround.”

The problem isn’t Breaths. Breaths adjust to their holder’s Identity and can be held by anyone anywhere. The problem IMO is Awakening’s “Catalyst,” Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation (EMR). I believe Adonalsium (and then Endowment) Invested Nalthis’ electromagnetic field the way Adonalsium (and then Honor) Invested Roshar’s highstorms. Nalthian objects absorb this Invested EMR. When Awakeners drain “color” (reflected EMR) to Catalyze their access to Endowment’s Spiritual Realm power, they’re really draining the absorbed EMR, not the color.

I believe Awakening works as follows: The Awakener transfers Breath to an object (an “end neutral” transaction), then drains the Investiture absorbed in colored objects to access Preservation’s power. The Awakener Focuses that power through a visualized command to animate the object.

Returned need a weekly Breath because their soul knows they’re dead. The Breath “heals” the Returned’s soul, keeping the Returned “alive.” It makes sense to me Zahel and Azure can “hack” Roshar’s magic to use Stormlight in lieu of Breaths to heal. Brandon says gaseous Breaths and Stormlight are similar Investitures.

But it does not make sense to me that Stormlight can substitute for Nalthis’ EMR as a Catalyst to access Preservation’s power. Stormlight IMO belongs to Honor and Catalyzes a Surgebinder’s access to Honor’s (and Cultivation’s) Spiritual Realm power, not Endowment’s. Even if an Awakener could use Stormlight as a Catalyst, the Awakener could “drain” that Investiture only from Roshar’s EMR. Wit turning his coat grey in the Epilogue shows this.

I theorize instead Azure and Hoid brought supplies of dyes and dyed objects made from the Tears of Edgli. I think she used hair coloring as one repository. (I don’t think she could use color from her Royal Locks, because that comes from her smidgeon of Divine Breath. Also, it’s hard to use color from living objects to Awaken. She did change the Locks' color after she drained their dyed color.) My guess is Azure and Hoid drained Nalthian dyed objects to Awaken on Roshar.

 

My opinion:

1. If a Nalthian Worldhops with vats of Nalthian dye and huge numbers of Breaths, they would be formidable.

2. If spren could travel, Surgebinders might be scary.

3. But I’d bet on the Metalborn. Preservation gives Metalborn the ability to preserve themselves anywhere. If the cosmere resembles our universe, metals are its most common substance. A Worldhopping Metalborn has ample fuel for a serious ruckus whosever gin joint she walks into.

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Isn't the rule is that any magic system can use any version of investiture, like is a surgebinder have breaths, then they could use the breaths  as replacement to stormlight, and vice versa.

Any magic system can theoretically use any version of investiture to power itself. However, each magic system seems to default to a particular type of investiture to use, and using a different type would require a type of hack.

Mistborn

Quote

As shown in Mistborn, compounding is basically hacking allomancy so it provides a feruchemical charge instead of the appropriate allomantic power.

 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Until OB, it wasn’t clear Nalthians could Awaken off-Nalthis. Brandon says contradictory things about it. As I understand Awakening, it should be impossible on Roshar without a “workaround.”

The problem isn’t Breaths. Breaths adjust to their holder’s Identity and can be held by anyone anywhere. The problem IMO is Awakening’s “Catalyst,” Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation (EMR). I believe Adonalsium (and then Endowment) Invested Nalthis’ electromagnetic field the way Adonalsium (and then Honor) Invested Roshar’s highstorms. Nalthian objects absorb this Invested EMR. When Awakeners drain “color” (reflected EMR) to Catalyze their access to Endowment’s Spiritual Realm power, they’re really draining the absorbed EMR, not the color.

I believe Awakening works as follows: The Awakener transfers Breath to an object (an “end neutral” transaction), then drains the Investiture absorbed in colored objects to access Preservation’s power. The Awakener Focuses that power through a visualized command to animate the object.

Returned need a weekly Breath because their soul knows they’re dead. The Breath “heals” the Returned’s soul, keeping the Returned “alive.” It makes sense to me Zahel and Azure can “hack” Roshar’s magic to use Stormlight in lieu of Breaths to heal. Brandon says gaseous Breaths and Stormlight are similar Investitures.

But it does not make sense to me that Stormlight can substitute for Nalthis’ EMR as a Catalyst to access Preservation’s power. Stormlight IMO belongs to Honor and Catalyzes a Surgebinder’s access to Honor’s (and Cultivation’s) Spiritual Realm power, not Endowment’s. Even if an Awakener could use Stormlight as a Catalyst, the Awakener could “drain” that Investiture only from Roshar’s EMR. Wit turning his coat grey in the Epilogue shows this.

I theorize instead Azure and Hoid brought supplies of dyes and dyed objects made from the Tears of Edgli. I think she used hair coloring as one repository. (I don’t think she could use color from her Royal Locks, because that comes from her smidgeon of Divine Breath. Also, it’s hard to use color from living objects to Awaken. She did change the Locks' color after she drained their dyed color.) My guess is Azure and Hoid drained Nalthian dyed objects to Awaken on Roshar.

 

 

Spoiler

Wouldn't it be simpler and more likely to say that awakening doesn't draw investiture from the objects which it drains the colour from? I don't understand either how that would result in a colour drain, as you explain it.

Also, if Vivienna was using the colour in her supposedly dyed hair, why did it only turn grey when they reached Shadesmar, and not early when she appeared to have awakened?

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects]

12 minutes ago, Confused said:

Off-Roshar Surgebinding might not work even with Stormlight.

On 11/24/2017 at 1:10 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I found a WoB that says otherwise.

Quote

mooglefrooglian

You've previously mentioned that someone bonded to a Seon would get some benefits if they went to Roshar , basically that it would be treated sort of like a Nahel bond. This implies to me that something about Roshar likes to give powers from bonds. (Hi there, Honor...)

Should this be taken to mean that spren-bond based Surgebinding won't work off-world, as it's a benefit Roshar gives from having a bond? Or would it be more specific, and mean that some of the passive benefits Radiants get (visions, Windrunner squire strengths) would be lost, but Surgebinding retained?

Brandon Sanderson

Surgebinding will work off-world.

Regarding the contents of your spoiler tag, I still dislike your EMR idea. Partially on the conceptual level, and partly on the specifically Nalthis aspect. Being limited to what may as well be "Nalthian Color" seems very counter-intuitive in its own right, especially in light of the fact that we aren't limited to "Scadrian Metal."

[RShara]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Regarding the contents of your spoiler tag, I still dislike your EMR idea. Partially on the conceptual level, and partly on the specifically Nalthis aspect. Being limited to what may as well be "Nalthian Color" seems very counter-intuitive in its own right, especially in light of the fact that we aren't limited to "Scadrian Metal."

I agree with One Who Connects.  This seems unlikely.  Brandon has said several times that the color from gemstones on Roshar could be used to fuel Awakening.  He never caveats this with "if the gemstones came from Nalthis" which would be very out of character for him if that were the case.

Additionally, Azure in Shadesmar has Captain Notum cutting cloth into human shaped pieces.  Since they weren't anticipating a journey at the time and none of them had packs of anything other than gemstones that Dalinar gave them, I don't think Azure would have had enough bottles of dyes to Awaken all of that cloth.

[Calderis]

All of the information we've been given implies that Awakening should work anywhere for anyone so long as they have breath. 

Surgebinding will work off world if you can get your spren away (which is difficult) and manage to either access Stormlight (hello Lift) or hack another source of investiture. 

The sand from Taldain can be charged with any investiture. 

All metal works for the Metallic Arts. 

As we've now seen an Aviar in Stormlight, we can probably assume they work anywhere. 

 

Other than Sel, magic systems seem to work without location being an issue. The only real issue is a fuel source. I don't see what we have to imply that color on Nalthis is somehow different than color anywhere else. 

We know Hoid has breath, and we've seen him awaken. Without evidence of an additional need, I think he did what any Awakener would have done, without need of extra hoops to jump through. 

[Llarimar]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Regarding the contents of your spoiler tag, I still dislike your EMR idea. Partially on the conceptual level, and partly on the specifically Nalthis aspect. Being limited to what may as well be "Nalthian Color" seems very counter-intuitive in its own right, especially in light of the fact that we aren't limited to "Scadrian Metal."

@Confused, I think that I agree with One Who Connects as well, although I must say that I'm very impressed with your analysis of Awakening and the Investiture on Nalthis.  It's extremely complex and well-conceived.  However, the thing that I'm confused about, aside from the other concerns about the theory that were voiced above, is the fact that I remember reading somewhere that the draining of color on Nalthis is merely a byproduct of performing an Awakening , rather than an actual source of energy.  The fuel for Awakening are the Breaths themselves, and the color drain is merely a side-effect.  Based on this idea, I had thought that Awakeners would drain colors from their surroundings no matter what world they were on, since the color draining is not specifically a Nalthian effect. 

If you are right that Awakeners need "color" from Nalthis in order to use their powers, then that would severely weaken their influence and power in the larger cosmere.  For that reason alone, I think that Awakeners can probably drain their color from anywhere, just because they would be unfairly limited if they could only use color from Nalthis, while other Invested people in the cosmere like Allomancers can use the resources of any planet.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Surgebinding will work off world if you can get your spren away (which is difficult) and manage to either access Stormlight (hello Lift) or hack another source of investiture. 

The sand from Taldain can be charged with any investiture. 

Whew, this is a lot to take in, I'm new to this idea that cosmere abilities can be fueled by any type of Investiture (in fact, I feel like I've just learned about it on this thread, although it may have been residing somewhere in my cosmere subconscious already).  It makes a lot of sense that the sand on Taladain can be fueled by any type of Investiture.  I was a bit surprised that Hoid would waste it on a simple Lightweaving show for some commoners, when Shallan saw the drained sand in his bag, but it makes a lot more sense if Hoid is able to recharge the sand using Stormlight. 

20 hours ago, Isilel said:

Somebody who knows how to power one kind of investiture with another could find a way to power surgebinding with something else, too. Breath would be easy, but way too costly. Allomancy or Feruchemy would be much more sustainable, particularly given the ability to produce your own metals via Soulcasting, though Jasnah would need a hemalurgic spike to obtain these abilities.

So if Jasnah or another Elsecaller (or a Willshaper, as @Willshaping Crasher points out), could find another source of Investiture other than Stormlight, they could potentially use it to fuel their Surgebinding and Transport to the Cognitive Realm on another planet.  Based on that, the Surge of Transportation would likely be a huge asset from a Worldhopping perspective.  As a side note though, how would Soulcasting work on another planet?  An integral part of Soulcasting on Roshar is finding the little glass bead that represents an object in the Physical Realm, and then convincing it to Transform.  But from what we've seen, those glass beads don't exist in the Cognitive Realm outside of Roshar, so how would that effect Soulcasting?  

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

An integral part of Soulcasting on Roshar is finding the little glass bead that represents an object in the Physical Realm, and then convincing it to Transform.  But from what we've seen, those glass beads don't exist in the Cognitive Realm outside of Roshar, so how would that effect Soulcasting?  

Cognitive aspects for everything exist elsewhere too. 

SH spoilers. 

Spoiler

Kelsier had a campfire and bag that he picked up and used. Those were Cognitive aspects, the same as the beads on Roshar. 

You'd just be interacting with whatever the Cognitive aspect of an object appears as in the planets Cognitive Realm. 

[Spoolofwhool]

10 hours ago, Llarimar said:

So if Jasnah or another Elsecaller (or a Willshaper, as @Willshaping Crasher points out), could find another source of Investiture other than Stormlight, they could potentially use it to fuel their Surgebinding and Transport to the Cognitive Realm on another planet.  Based on that, the Surge of Transportation would likely be a huge asset from a Worldhopping perspective.  As a side note though, how would Soulcasting work on another planet?  An integral part of Soulcasting on Roshar is finding the little glass bead that represents an object in the Physical Realm, and then convincing it to Transform.  But from what we've seen, those glass beads don't exist in the Cognitive Realm outside of Roshar, so how would that effect Soulcasting?  

You can theoretically use any type of investiture to fuel the usage of a manifestation of investiture. However, doing so requires a "hacking" of the magic, so that it can use a source of investiture that it's not designed to use. 

[Confused]

15 hours ago, Llarimar said:

Whew, this is a lot to take in, I'm new...

Cosmere magic is a lot to take in. There are almost as many theories as there are Shard posters. Most folks here disagree with my Cosmere Magic Theory. That disagreement on magic fundamentals underlies this discussion. My best advice? Read the books and the WoBs, read other people’s theories, and then develop your own theory. Just make sure your theory’s internally consistent and explains most cosmere phenomena – and revise it often when fellow theorists point out your (too many) mistakes. (Sighs.).

5 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You can theoretically use any type of investiture to fuel the usage of a manifestation of investiture. However, doing so requires a "hacking" of the magic, so that it can use a source of investiture that it's not designed to use.

Thanks, @Spoolofwhool, for saying this. This thread makes it appear easy to use local Investiture to fuel an off-world magic system. Except for Breath transfers, it is not. The main reason IMO is Identity, which is encoded into each mortal’s Spiritual DNA. I define Identity as the relationship between a mortal and a Shardworld that permits the mortal to use that Shardworld’s Investiture. I think most “hacks” involve changes to the magic user’s Identity. IIRC, Hoid, Zahel and Azure are the cosmere’s only known “hackers.”

21 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Wouldn't it be simpler and more likely to say that awakening doesn't draw investiture from the objects which it drains the colour from? I don't understand either how that would result in a colour drain, as you explain it.

Also, if Vivienna was using the colour in her supposedly dyed hair, why did it only turn grey when they reached Shadesmar, and not early when she appeared to have awakened?

IMO, “color drain” refers to the withdrawal of Investiture from a person or object. Szeth and Lift develop gray streaks when Nightblood draws Investiture from them. Shardblade-severed limbs turn gray, when they lose Connection to the soul and its Investiture. “Color-drained” objects like Wit’s coat also turn gray.

That suggests “color drained” objects turn gray because of Investiture withdrawal. The withdrawn Investiture can’t be in color itself, because color is the reflected portion of the EMR spectrum. Color is how the eye perceives that reflected EMR. Color never actually attaches to the colored object. Rather, color is the part of the EMR spectrum that the object doesn’t absorb.

If the object turns gray from Investiture withdrawal, that Investiture must be in the object itself. Only the absorbed EMR spectrum could hold that Investiture in a colored object.

It might be “simpler…to say that awakening doesn't draw investiture from the objects which it drains the colour from.” Why then drain color from objects at all? I’m unaware of an alternative explanation. I’ve not seen the statement @Llarimar refers to that “the draining of color on Nalthis is merely a byproduct of performing an Awakening, rather than an actual source of energy.” If confirmed, that would change my view.

Good point about Vivenna. Maybe she didn’t dye her hair, but I don’t believe she could drain her Royal Locks to Awaken or they’d be permanently gray. It’s possible in Shadesmar she considers how old and/or tired she is, and her hair briefly changes color to reflect her mood. (Just a guess…)

21 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Regarding the contents of your spoiler tag, I still dislike your EMR idea. Partially on the conceptual level, and partly on the specifically Nalthis aspect. Being limited to what may as well be "Nalthian Color" seems very counter-intuitive in its own right, especially in light of the fact that we aren't limited to "Scadrian Metal."

Not “Nalthian Color,” but Endowment’s Investiture. IMO, every Shardworld’s Catalyst is the resident Shard’s Physical Realm Investiture. A recent WoB (“the essence of the Shard is in the Physical Realm”) confirms an older one that a Shard’s Physical Realm Investiture is its “essence.” While empowered by the Bands, Marasi in BoM sees metal as Preservation’s “Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.” (Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.) Unlike some other Catalysts, Preservation’s essence exists cosmere-wide.

I do believe that Awakening requires Endowment’s Investiture as its Catalyst. Why should a different Shard’s essence be used to access Endowment’s power?

20 hours ago, RShara said:

I agree with One Who Connects.  This seems unlikely.  Brandon has said several times that the color from gemstones on Roshar could be used to fuel Awakening.  He never caveats this with "if the gemstones came from Nalthis" which would be very out of character for him if that were the case.

Additionally, Azure in Shadesmar has Captain Notum cutting cloth into human shaped pieces.  Since they weren't anticipating a journey at the time and none of them had packs of anything other than gemstones that Dalinar gave them, I don't think Azure would have had enough bottles of dyes to Awaken all of that cloth.

@RShara, would you please show me where Brandon says gemstone “color” can fuel Awakening? If the gemstones absorbed light on Nalthis, I would absolutely agree. They’d then hold Endowment’s Investiture. That’s not the same thing as using Stormlight in gemstones to fuel Awakening. My guess is those WoBs are unclear.

Azure in Shadesmar doesn’t need to dye the new human-shaped pieces. Those become the Awakened objects. Other colored objects supply the Investiture to Awaken the new human-shaped pieces. Azure would have brought lots of dyed clothing with her or dyed the cloth on Roshar before her Shadesmar adventure. Or, as you suggest, maybe she carried gemstones she filled with Nalthian light before visiting Roshar.

@Calderis, my friend, so many issues we disagree on… I did think your “Intent: Origin and Intepretation” post was outstanding.

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

All of the information we've been given implies that Awakening should work anywhere for anyone so long as they have breath. 

IIRC, Brandon has made contradictory statements about Awakening. We had some discussion of this last fall, and disagreed then whether his most recent statement resolves the contradictions.

OB confirms Awakening on Roshar is possible, but says little about who or how. You and I agree anyone can acquire and transfer Breaths anywhere. We agree anyone holding Breaths anywhere will Heighten. I think we agree that Breath transfers by themselves are not Awakening, that Awakening is the animation of the object to which Breath transfers. Awakening somehow involves color draining, though simple Breath transfers don’t.

My model tries to explain what “color draining” means and how it fits the structure of other Catalytic magic systems. But there’s also the issue of Identity. Anyone can use Breaths, a form of Spiritual matter (innate Investiture). IMO, without hacking, only Nalthians (and Hoid, who breaks most rules) have the Identity to use Nalthis’ inherent Investiture, the Spiritual energy that first Adonalsium and then Endowment placed in Nalthis’ EMR.

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Surgebinding will work off world if you can get your spren away (which is difficult) and manage to either access Stormlight (hello Lift) or hack another source of investiture. 

We agree: like other magic systems, Surgebinding needs a “hack” to work off-World. The issue isn’t just the difficulty of “getting your spren away,” though that is an important factor. Spren “can travel elsewhere.” The issue is how functional spren will be when they arrive. This WoB suggests spren’s “Cognitive sense” may suffer outside Roshar’s subastral.

@The One Who Connects quotes a WoB that “Surgebinding will work off-world.” This is a true statement because OB tells us human Surgebinding destroyed their prior world. But we don’t know whether off-world Surgebinding would use spren and the same mechanics as Roshar’s Surgebinding.

Lift is interesting. Can she metabolize off-Roshar food into Stormlight? Is Wyndle necessary to this process? Will he function properly off-World?

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

The sand from Taldain can be charged with any investiture. 

Yes, but Brandon says charging the microflora “isn’t really the magic.” Sand Mastery involves shaping the sand. Khriss tells us Sand Masters use their body water to summon Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power. That power enables Sand Masters to direct the microflora’s Investiture to shape the sand. In my model, that makes the body water Sand Mastery’s Catalyst.

IMO, Autonomy’s solar radiation Invests Taldain’s oceans. Through the natural evaporation-condensation-precipitation Water Cycle, Autonomy’s Physical Realm Investiture (the Shard’s essence), is absorbed into mortal bodies. When a Sand Master dehydrates with “Intent,” Autonomy’s Spiritual Realm power Invests the Sand Master. I suspect Autonomy splinters attach as innate Investiture to worthy Sand Master candidates.

This structure is just like Awakening and Surgebinding. The Catalyst is the Shardworld’s inherent Investiture (Invested EMR, Stormlight, and Invested water). The Catalyst causes the Shard’s Spiritual Realm power to Invest the magic user.

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

All metal works for the Metallic Arts.

And all metal is Preservation’s “essence.”

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

As we've now seen an Aviar in Stormlight, we can probably assume they work anywhere. 

We have seen an Aviar on Roshar, but we haven’t seen Aviar magic there. The bird may be Invested, but we don’t know whether an Aviar’s Cognitive bond will work off-First of the Sun. We don’t even know if Aviar bonds work off-Patji.

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Other than Sel, magic systems seem to work without location being an issue. The only real issue is a fuel source. I don't see what we have to imply that color on Nalthis is somehow different than color anywhere else. 

We agree: the issue is a magic user’s ability to use local Physical Realm Investiture (the “fuel source”). Again, Nalthian color isn’t different. Color everywhere is just visible light an object reflects. Endowment’s Investiture, IMO held in the EMR Nalthian objects absorb, is different from other Shardworld Investitures. Without Endowment’s Investiture as a Catalyst or a suitable hack, I don’t believe off-World Awakening is possible.

Of course, all of this is probably wrong...

[RShara]

22 minutes ago, Confused said:

 

@RShara, would you please show me where Brandon says gemstone “color” can fuel Awakening? If the gemstones absorbed light on Nalthis, I would absolutely agree. They’d then hold Endowment’s Investiture. That’s not the same thing as using Stormlight in gemstones to fuel Awakening. My guess is those WoBs are unclear.

Azure in Shadesmar doesn’t need to dye the new human-shaped pieces. Those become the Awakened objects. Other colored objects supply the Investiture to Awaken the new human-shaped pieces. Azure would have brought lots of dyed clothing with her or dyed the cloth on Roshar before her Shadesmar adventure. Or, as you suggest, maybe she carried gemstones she filled with Nalthian light before visiting Roshar.

No, because she wasn't anticipating a journey.  Shallan catalogued everything they brought with them into Shadesmar.  They did not have lots of extra cloth or bottles of dye.  She didn't have any gemstones with her.  Kaladin did.  The ones that Dalinar gave him for the mission.  Azure had her armor, and her regular clothing, and that's it. 

I wasn't implying that she was going to dye the human-shaped pieces nor that she was carrying Nalthian gemstones with her.  I was saying she didn't have bottles of dye to use on anything to fuel Awakening, nor did she have a bunch of extra dyed cloth.  Otherwise, Adolin, Shallan and the others wouldn't have had to trade for cloth and clothing in Celebrant.

This is what they had with them in Shadesmar:

Quote

“All right,” Shallan said, drawing him back. “I made a list of our supplies.” She gestured with a pencil toward the items—which were arrayed on the ground—as she spoke. “One bag of gemstones from the emerald reserve. I used roughly half of our Stormlight in our transfer to Shadesmar and crossing the sea of beads. We have my satchel, with charcoal, reed pens, brushes, ink, lacquer, some solvents, three sketchpads, my sharpening knife, and one jar of jam I’d stowed inside for an emergency snack.”

“Wonderful,” Kaladin said. “I’m sure a pile of brushes will be useful in fighting off Voidspren.”

“Better than your tongue, which is notably dull lately. Adolin has his side knife, but our only real weapon is Azure’s Shardblade. Kaladin brought the bag of gemstones inside his pack, which fortunately also contained his travel rations: three meals of flatbread and jerked pork. We also have a water jug and three canteens.”

“Mine is half empty,” Adolin noted.

“Mine too,” Azure said. “Which means we have maybe one day’s worth of water and three meals for four people. Last time I crossed Shadesmar, it took four weeks.”

 

The WoBs are pretty clear.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96-holiday-signing/#e3203

Quote

zas678

If an Awakener went to Roshar and bled color from a gem, would this gem still hold Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

If an Awakener bled-- No it would-- Oh wait yes it would because a colorless gem could still hold Stormlight. It just would not have--

zas678

Would not have the properties of the original color.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the color is integral to what's going on because molecularly some of these gems are the same except for the different coloring. The coloring is kind of what--

zas678

What defines what magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It has to with fabrials and some of the effects, and that relates directly to the spren and what spren-- anyway.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96-holiday-signing/#e3203

Quote

Questioner

If an Awakener were to go to Roshar and were to bleed the color from a gem would that gem still be able to store Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Bleed the color from a gem… Um ye-ye-ye-yeah. This would interfere with its function on Roshar. It would probably still be able to hold Stormlight…

Questioner

Might not be able to be used for Soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea-- It's going to… You know what no it would just change it. It would just bleed the color from it and turn it into a dusty quartz or something like that. That's probably what it would end up with, a dusty quartz. Because the molecular structure doesn't matter as much as the color for Roshar. So yeah you would probably still be able to hold Stormlight because a diamond can but I don't know, quartz might cut it. You'd probably end up with something that's not going to work so well.

Questioner

What about a fabrial that needs a specific--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah a specific-- A ruby wouldn't work any more, and it would let go whatever is captured inside.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6-bands-of-mourning-release-party/#e295

Quote

Questioner

What would happen if somebody used the color from a Stormlight-infused gem to create a BioChromatic entity?

Brandon Sanderson

So I just had this question actually and what we came up with was that would leave behind something that is like a cloudy quartz and is going to make it work not as well for holding Stormlight. That's our answer right now, I'm going to talk to my scientists and see what they think because draining the color from something doesn't just leave it white, or clear, it kind of ruins it, it's gray-ish, it's dun. It clouds. So I think it would ruin things for Stormlight.

The questioners are asking what would happen to gemstones if their color was used to fuel Awakening.  One is even a Stormlight infused one, and another is being used in a fabrial to hold a spren.  Chances of these gems being from Nalthis are pretty much zero, yet their color can be used to fuel Awakening and they would be drained to a cloudy white or gray.

Edited January 21, 2018 by RShara

[TequilaJack]

Sheadsmar is not restricted to Roshar. It's common across Cosmere and there are other ways to access it than Elsecalling. That makes Elsecalling one of the common investiture across planets. Useful for world hopping but not mandatory. It's probably predates Shards. 

Do we know Breaths can't be gotten from other world citizens?

[RShara]

11 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

Do we know Breaths can't be gotten from other world citizens?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/232-orem-signing/#e4801

Quote

Zas678 (paraphrased)

Do people in the Cosmere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive Breaths though.

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by RShara

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Confused said:

Awakening somehow involves color draining, though simple Breath transfers don’t.

Oh, transferring breath involves a drain of color too: Your own.

Quote

Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color.

---

5 minutes ago, Confused said:

would you please show me where Brandon says gemstone “color” can fuel Awakening? If the gemstones absorbed light on Nalthis, I would absolutely agree. They’d then hold Endowment’s Investiture. That’s not the same thing as using Stormlight in gemstones to fuel Awakening. My guess is those WoBs are unclear.

Make your own assumptions:

Quote

zas678

If an Awakener went to Roshar and bled color from a gem, would this gem still hold Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

If an Awakener bled-- No it would-- Oh wait yes it would because a colorless gem could still hold Stormlight. It just would not have--

zas678

Would not have the properties of the original color.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the color is integral to what's going on because molecularly some of these gems are the same except for the different coloring.

Quote

Questioner

If an Awakener were to go to Roshar and were to bleed the color from a gem would that gem still be able to store Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Bleed the color from a gem… Um ye-ye-ye-yeah. This would interfere with its function on Roshar. It would probably still be able to hold Stormlight…

These certainly seem to imply the possibility that that color could be bled from a Rosharan Gemstone. Ooh, that third WoB @RShara posted is even better.

This is only semi-realated, and I know this question was about the Tears, but I feel like the existence of "very effective" vs "effective" is important here.

Quote

EHyde
I was curious about the dye in Hallandren, the Tears of Edgli. So, that can be used to make a whole bunch of different colors, right? Does the flower come in different colors? Or is that something in the dye process, or-? And does it dye all fiber types the same?

Brandon Sanderson
The flower comes in different colors. And it does not dye all fiber types the same.

EHyde
Is it more fuel-efficient for Awakening? Like, color used in Awakening-?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes. Those dyes are very effective for Awakening.

---

17 minutes ago, Confused said:

Unlike some other Catalysts, Preservation’s essence exists cosmere-wide.

As a sidenote, this implies that Soulcast Metal is made of Preservation's essence, despite being made from Honor/Cultivation's power(or Devotion's, since Aon Shao exists), which is.. entertaining.

22 minutes ago, Confused said:

Endowment’s Investiture, IMO held in the EMR Nalthian objects absorb, is different from other Shardworld Investitures. Without Endowment’s Investiture as a Catalyst or a suitable hack, I don’t believe off-World Awakening is possible.

Please enlighten me on how this is any different from "Nalthian Color," because you have not provided an explanation that feels sufficient thus far. Brandon uses the term "color," and Awakeners drain color from objects. If they can only drain color from objects that contain Endowment's Investiture, and Endowment's Investiture is only absorbed by objects on Nalthis(Nalthian EMR), then it may as well be Nalthian Color. This subtopic of conversation will probably just go in circles until a proper explanation is provided by one of us.

I'll admit that I'm partially against your theory because I don't see the point in this restriction to the magic. It feels like restrictions for the sake of having restrictions, rather than a limit with a story purpose.

38 minutes ago, Confused said:

Without Endowment’s Investiture as a Catalyst or a suitable hack, I don’t believe off-World Awakening is possible.

I will still stand by "Anyone can awaken if they get the Breath." And this:

Quote

Breath, and its transference, came from my desire to come up with something different—something that had an economic component, something that allowed anyone to become a magic user, but which still had limited resources so that not everyone could be one.

[Calderis]

@Confused yeah, we're pretty open about our disagreements though, and I'm glad we can be as respectful about it as we are.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

IIRC, Brandon has made contradictory statements about Awakening. We had some discussion of this last fall, and disagreed then whether his most recent statement resolves the contradictions.

OB confirms Awakening on Roshar is possible, but says little about who or how. You and I agree anyone can acquire and transfer Breaths anywhere. We agree anyone holding Breaths anywhere will Heighten. I think we agree that Breath transfers by themselves are not Awakening, that Awakening is the animation of the object to which Breath transfers. Awakening somehow involves color draining, though simple Breath transfers don’t.

I've taken the the WoBs @RShara just provided about gems to mean that the source of color doesn't matter.

Additionally we have an example of "color drain" that doesn't actually drain color. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4060

Quote

Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color.

Which also means that Breath transfer itself is not exempt. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

This WoB suggests spren’s “Cognitive sense” may suffer outside Roshar’s subastral

I have interpreted that completely differently. To me, that WoB is showing the mechanism that must be overcome in order to get your spren off world in the first place. Seons should have the same issue, and we have WoBs about situations with them on Roshar and no reference to limited capacity. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Lift is interesting. Can she metabolize off-Roshar food into Stormlight? Is Wyndle necessary to this process? Will he function properly off-World?

As to Wyndel, I believe I've covered my view of that, but for Lift and off world food. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/146/#e2739

Quote

Gary Singer (paraphrased)

Could Lift convert food from other cosmere worlds into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Lift's Spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

This structure is just like Awakening and Surgebinding. The Catalyst is the Shardworld’s inherent Investiture (Invested EMR, Stormlight, and Invested water). The Catalyst causes the Shard’s Spiritual Realm power to Invest the magic user.

And here is where the fundamental portion of our disagreements rest. As with the others, I don't believe this is an issue. 

I do believe that water is the focus of Taldain's magic, but like metal, any water should work. So once the sand I invested, a sandmaster should be able to manipulate it as long as they are hydrated enough. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

And all metal is Preservation’s “essence.”

I very much disagree her. Non-godmetals are not inherently invested. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3405

Quote

mooglefrooglian

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

Hemalurgy can be used anywhere as well. And all indicators point to metal being the methods of transfer Cosmere wide. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/135/#e3347

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

If metal is the essence of Preservation, why would Ruin's magic system work on it? 

I've had some real life things that delayed posting this, so I realize a good chunk of this has already been covered, but I'm to lazy to go back and change it.