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@Porridge: Perhaps -- although the sample size is really too small at this point to tell if there's a consistent method behind the variation. It would seem odd to have specific syllabic rules for just one letter though -- so I suspect the rule is "make the glyph look pretty" (aka "screw you"). For example, the letter G in Gesheh also gets truncated when you go from the stylized (patch) to super-stylized (tattoo) version. I could also just be wrong in what I'm parsing as N...

True enough. I just find it curious that both Roion and the two Kholin glyphs have it so heavily truncated and in the exact same manner, when the only other evidence of truncation is in the tattoo, which is many times more stylized than all the others.
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@Weiry : You're probably right, but for the moment the only good examples of writing that we have access to (with the exception of the Thaylen Frostlands map) were written by Alethi.  It's possible (and I'd say probable) that all the Vorin nations use the same graphemes -- or it could be something like English vs. Cyrrilic.  I'm a bit hesitant to use the label Vorin at this point (even for the numbers), since that term has such religious connotations -- it'd be like saying "Christian Script".  Kharbranth is such a melting pot that folks there could easily use Alethi alongside many other writing systems. Likewise, given Sigzil's unique education, I'd imagine he's at least passingly familiar with most of Roshar's languages.

 

My biggest issue with that is that that implies Veden and Alethi glyphs are different, when everything I have seen says they are universal.  A Veden would write shash exactly the same way an Alethi would in terms of the basic un-stylized form of the glyph.

 

"I know all of the major, minor, and topical glyphs and can paint them calligraphically."

 

Shallan says this during her interview with Jasnah, she does not mention any variation between regional forms of glyphs.  If there was any significant differences between "Veden glyphs" and "Alethi glyphs" I find it very strange that it was not brought up, especially since the previous discussion of languages established Shallan could speak both Veden and Alethi.

 

I agree that Vorin is probably not the best descriptor but I do think it is better then "Alethi".  The latter implies an exclusivity to Alethkar while the former includes all of the Vorin nations, three of which (Alethkar, Jah Keved, and Kharbranth) are known to use the glyphs.

 

I would also say the fact that Kharbranth is a melting pot is not the reason for glyph and women's script usage, I'd say it has more to do with the fact that they are Vorin.

 

Kharbranth was a Vorin kingdom, like Alethkar and like Shallan's own Jah Keved. They weren't pagans here, and writing was a feminine art; men learned only glyphs, leaving letters and reading to their wives and sisters.

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@Weiry -- You raise some good points, though I'm still inclined to stick with "Alethi glyphs" for the time being.

 


 A Veden would write shash exactly the same way an Alethi would in terms of the basic un-stylized form of the glyph.

 

I'm not sure that's necessarily a safe assumption, given the variety in how glyphs are drawn. For example, Linil can be written either like a tower or like a sword. The un-stylized form of the glyph doesn't necesssarly exist "in universe" -- it's just a construct I use to help decipher the glyphs. The interchangeability of Veden/Alethi glyphs could simply be because the final pictograms have the same shape -- even if the components graphemes are different. If that were the case, it could be part of why Jasnah found Shallan's calligraphic skills unimpressive.

 

 
“Good,” Jasnah said as Shallan paused for a breath. “Languages?”
Shallan fumbled for a moment, bringing her attention away from frantically trying to remember  the
next  verse.  Languages? “I  can speak your  native Alethi,  obviously,” Shallan said.  “I  have  a  passable
reading knowledge of Thaylen and good spoken Azish. I can make myself understood in Selay, but not

read it.”.

 

 

This implies to me that Alethi and Veden are distinct languages, not simply regional dialects of the same language. To use an analogy with real languages: if Alethi is Spanish, then Veden would be Portugese. These languages are mutually intelligible, but still use slightly different alphabets. (The reverse of this would be the example of Japanese kanji and Chinese hanzi -- in which the same written characters have different meanings.) To extend the analogy further: Thaylen would be something like Russian or Greek that uses a distinct, but fundamentally similar writing system. Azish and Selay would be something only distantly related, such as Arabic or Urdu.

 

Again, I think it is unlikely for the Vorin kingdoms to use wildly different writing systems -- the simplest explanation is that there's just one set of glyphs for the men, and one alphabet for the women's script. However, so far we've only seen documents written in Alethi, so there may be slight differences in how the other languages are written. I'd rather not assume beyond what's present in the illustrations.

 

Technically the most accurate thing to call the glyphs would be: "ideographs that we know are used in Alethkar, which are similar or identical to those used in Jah Keved and Kharbranth, may also be used in the other Vorin kingdoms of Natanatan and Emul, and bear a similarity to the writing system of Thaylenah, perhaps owing to a shared proto-language (i.e. the Dawnchant) extant across much or all Roshar prior to the Recreance."  That's a bit of a mouthful, though. "Vorin glyphs" is overly broad, since it implies the same glyphs are/were also used in Emul and Natanatan -- which we don't know either way at this point. Just calling them "glyphs" seems too generic, so (in the absence of WoB on the matter), "Alethi glyphs" seems to me to be the most appropriate name for the time being.

Edited by Harakeke
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@Weiry -- You raise some good points, though I'm still inclined to stick with "Alethi glyphs" for the time being.

 

I'm not sure that's necessarily a safe assumption, given the variety in how glyphs are drawn. For example, Linil can be written either like a tower or like a sword. The un-stylized form of the glyph doesn't necesssarly exist "in universe" -- it's just a construct I use to help decipher the glyphs. The interchangeability of Veden/Alethi glyphs could simply be because the final pictograms have the same shape -- even if the components graphemes are different. If that were the case, it could be part of why Jasnah found Shallan's calligraphic skills unimpressive.

Actually I would say the unstylized version does exist in-world, otherwise there would be no such thing as a stylized version. There is also this:

 

This one had a row of shops climbing up the steep slope, each with a sign hanging out front bearing the glyphpair for book, and those glyphs were often styled into the shape of a book. Illiterate servants who might be sent to a shop had to be able to recognize them.

Notice how it says "often styled" which implies it isn't always stylized that way which in turn implies an un stylized form.

I also do not follow that line of logic. If the graphemes are different (which I do not believe is the case because there is absolutely no indication of it being so) how could they have the same shape?

I'm also disinclined to to agree with that interpretation of of Jasnah's dismissal. (Primarily because I can't say I understand it? What does the one have to do with the other?) The actual reason she gives is that she thinks the accomplishment is basic enough that "most children" can do the same, which given what we know of Jasnah makes sense.

 

This implies to me that Alethi and Veden are distinct languages, not simply regional dialects of the same language. To use an analogy with real languages: if Alethi is Spanish, then Veden would be Portugese. These languages are mutually intelligible, but still use slightly different alphabets. (The reverse of this would be the example of Japanese kanji and Chinese hanzi -- in which the same written characters have different meanings.) To extend the analogy further: Thaylen would be something like Russian or Greek that uses a distinct, but fundamentally similar writing system. Azish and Selay would be something only distantly related, such as Arabic or Urdu.

I am well aware that Alethi and Veden are distinct languages, it is kind of the point I was trying to make. It is made a point that Alethi and Veden are distinct languages, but at no point ever is there any mention of differences in women's script or the glyphs.

 

Again, I think it is unlikely for the Vorin kingdoms to use wildly different writing systems -- the simplest explanation is that there's just one set of glyphs for the men, and one alphabet for the women's script. However, so far we've only seen documents written in Alethi, so there may be slight differences in how the other languages are written. I'd rather not assume beyond what's present in the illustrations.

 

I don't think we should discount the actual text though. The illustrations are all well and good but the text is equally valuable. And I think it strains credulity that such variations would exist and not be mentioned. Especially by Shallan, a Veden surrounded by Alethi. There were plenty of chances for Brandon to slip in something like "Even though the Alethi shaped the glyphs slightly differently than Vedens like herself did, she still understood their meaning". So yes we have only seen examples of glyphs written by Alethi indivinduals, however the texts indicate the glyphs are universal.

 

Technically the most accurate thing to call the glyphs would be: "ideographs that we know are used in Alethkar, which are similar or identical to those used in Jah Keved and Kharbranth, may also be used in the other Vorin kingdoms of Natanatan and Emul, and bear a similarity to the writing system of Thaylenah, perhaps owing to a shared proto-language (i.e. the Dawnchant) extant across much or all Roshar prior to the Recreance."  That's a bit of a mouthful, though. "Vorin glyphs" is overly broad, since it implies the same glyphs are/were also used in Emul and Natanatan -- which we don't know either way at this point. Just calling them "glyphs" seems too generic, so (in the absence of WoB on the matter), "Alethi glyphs" seems to me to be the most appropriate name for the time being.

First a side note, Emul is not a Vorin nation, I think you mean Herdaz (but even then Herdaz is only sort-of Vorin and isn't considered one of the gour Vorin nations that Shallan knows of). Personally I think glyphs is a perfectly accurate name, since that is what they are called in the books and that referring to them as "Alethi glyphs", as I understand it, is incorrect.

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N bothers me. I don't have my notes with me at work, but I am starting to suspect that the glyph for n just doesn't correspond to the Thaylen n as well as most of the other letters. In some cases half of the glyph is truncated, that seems pretty extreme to me. Going off your current key, it looks like the lower half of the n-glyph is present in both nahn and the Kholin & Roion glyphpairs. The top half is never fully drawn, and while it seems to be completely missing from Kholin and Roion, its vertical line is drawn in the simple glyph nahn. Which is a really annoying conflict - the drawing of nahn is pretty clear, but we have two glyphpairs in which the n-glyph looks different...

 

Either way, I am going to work under the assumption that your current version of n, while a logical choice, is wrong - based on empirical evidence. I am going to play with a version that doesn't have the slanted line on the top, making the glyph something the Internet told me is known as "Canadian syllabics ya" (except mirrored, obviously).

 

canadian_syllabics_ya.png

  (this is the left side)

Edited by Argent
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Has anyone tried to figure out if this is just random numbers or a number cypher?

 


111825101112712491512101011141021511711210111217134483111071514 254143410916149

149341212254101012512710151910111234125511525 1215755111234101112915121061534

—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Ceiling Rotation: pattern 15

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 1008). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Edited by Vessyr
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On the Linil glyph: I think there's another way you could parse it that is a little more consistent with Kholin and Roion, if not Nahn. Notice how the line you label N intersects a Screw You Line at the midpoint? What if the bottom two strokes of that are actually just part of the Screw You Line too? This would make the N be just two strokes, like how it is in Kholin and Roion. Then, the only irregularity would be in Nahn, where the extra could just conceivably be more Screw You Lines.

Edited by PorridgeBrick
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Hmm. perhaps. It just strike me as odd that the Screw You lines in the big N in Nahn would just *happen* to perfectly re-create the Thaylen letter N.  If the differences between the Bridge 4 patch and tattoo are any indication, then the glyph stylization process can include not just the inclusion of random meaningless screw you lines (a la khokh & linil), but also the erasure of meaningful grapheme lines.

 

The Scroll Stances page also has a couple instances of the full "Thaylen N", so I'm inclined to think the the 4-line version is the "complete" form, while the highprince names are abbreviated using just the bottom half of the letter, like so:  

 

Definitely worth considering the alternatives though.

Edited by Harakeke
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My problem with the abbreviated form is that it could very easily cause ambiguity - and as artistic as the glyph writing system is, it's supposed to be readable. Which is not that much of an issue in your current key, because I don't see any other letters that look like enough like the lower half of n to concern me, but it's something I won't discard just yet.

 

The worse part is that if we assume n can be cut, then there is very little reason not to start cutting all the other letters as well - and therein lies madness.

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So I've been spending a lot of time staring at one of the last four Highprince glyphs we haven't identified yet. I attached to this post a magnified image of the original, as well as 3 badly drawn attempts at making it out. From what I can tell, it's definitely not Ruthar– none of the inner lines even slightly resemble R. It's probably not Thanadal, since there's neither enough lines nor anything that could be an N. And I don't think it's Hatham– nothing really looks like the M in Vamah. So, Bethab, maybe?

post-9019-0-71145700-1398214936_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-53565300-1398214945_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-50048900-1398214952_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-99937300-1398214958_thumb.jp

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So, from the Waygate Foundation Livestream:

 

Isaac: The glyphs don’t really relate to pronunciation.  You learn them from seeing the glyph and knowing what the word is for that.  But the people, the people who create the glyphs have a different process from those who read them.

 

In a way, this is good - we probably don't have to worry about vowels anymore, because (for example) Kholin and Khalin would be painted the same way. We've made some really solid progress with the consonants, but I have to wonder - can we solve it all?

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Awesomeness made some great images of the untranslated highprince glyphs, so I brought them over here for translation. I can't really figure them out, but what I can determine is that Ruthar is either the second or third. Only those have anything resembling Rs. I'm inclined to pick the second, but I could certainly be wrong. Anyone else able to parse these?

post-9019-0-55476900-1398906623_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-07126900-1398906640_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-39887000-1398906650_thumb.jp

post-9019-0-14727000-1398906961_thumb.jp

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, I hear back from Isaac regarding the mechanics behind the creation of each glyph. Bad news is, he and Peter decided not to release any additional information for now. Good news is, there is a good chance this kind of information will probably surface en masse throughout the first 5-book arc.

 

But on a more cheerful note, Isaac did send me much clearer versions of the highprinces' glyphs (or are they glyphpairs? I can't seem to cement my understanding of the terms) from the warcamps map. Some (e.g. row 1, column 2) are almost remarkably different without the smudged ink. You can see them here or in the obnoxiously large (for a forum post) image below:

 

hIAiv98.jpg

Edited by Argent
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Did a little deciphering. Couldn't make much out, but I did get a little.

post-9019-0-21646300-1402765342_thumb.jpThis one is Ruthar. There's an R directly around the central line at the top, as clear as can be. Can't seem to find the other R as easily, however.

post-9019-0-16842900-1402765350_thumb.jp This one is strange. The innermost line looks exactly like the G in Gesheh. Since there's no G in the Highprinces' names, this might be a case of a letter that can represent multiple consonants. From the Thaylen key, I'm guessing H, for Hatham? Or it might just be a screw-you line.

post-9019-0-78157500-1402765360.jpgNo idea.

post-9019-0-75445900-1402765379_thumb.jpThe straightness of the inner lines looks very much like V as in Vamah, but that's already taken. So this is probably an extremely straightened/truncated version of one of the letters.

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Not to detract from your work, but aren't the "decorative" lines not supposed to hinder the reading of the actual glyph/glyphpair?
ie: not look like other letters

Edit:
I guess since a fair amount of men likely are not trained in reading glyphs, they won't know if an irrelevant letter is what makes it look like the item(tower, sword, flag, ect..) that they call theirs or their lord's.

 

Just an extra thought, if you asked Gaz about a glyphpair, he would say Kholin's camp or Thanadal's camp, etc...

Kaladin can read glyphs, so he would say Khokh Linil, Sas Morom, etc..

Edited by The One Who Connects
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  • 4 months later...

I recently came across an interesting constructed writing system called the Elian Script.

 

It strikes me as a non-symmetrical analog to the Alethi Glyphs. There are basic, blocky letter forms that can be stylized and then stacked on top of each other:

Image_17.gif

 

Could be useful for teasing apart the structure of the glyphs.  What happens if we use the Thaylen letters as the "blocky" form,  transform them into "fluid" words as per the Elian rules, and then mirror them? Do we get anything resembling Alethi glyphs?  I'm fairly swamped now, but I'll try to look into this when I get a chance.

Edited by Harakeke
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I'm fairly swamped now, but I'll try to look into this when I get a chance.

 

Same, but I did go over the basics of the Elian script (up to the fluidity of the letters, I still need to see how the composition works exactly), but it does bear a striking resemblance to the Alethi script, visually at least. Conceptually too, to an extent. 

 

I doubt I'll get a chance to look into this myself, not in the next couple of weeks at least, but I would love to see this venue explored. 

 

Side note, I now want to learn Elian to the point where I can write whatever I want. Maybe not quickly, but without the need of references.

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  • 4 months later...

So... I started looking at the women's script on the Shallan's notebook page about the lait plant life which was analyzed here thinking that my goal was to figure out which vowel sounds correspond to the different vowel symbols (since English vowels are a mess...) and whether there is anything interesting going on with diphthongs.  Instead, I got distracted with looking at the translation and, after poking at it for a while with zhencongming, have an update for lines 2 and 3. I think the beginning of the passage is:

 

"The statement that intrigues me though is that of King Nohadon. He implies Urithiru could be reached by any of the main cities. If such a thing were possible, evidence of the roads would likely be in place among the kingdoms of today."

 

I added a transparent layer over the page and did my best to trace the women's script in black, filling in what I could by symmetry in blue. Things in green are places where the script is reasonably clear but funky.  I filled the word "likely" in in red so that we can see how perfectly it fits in (though hidden by the plant).  There are things in line 5 that I really feel like we ought to be able to figure out, but that I'm not currently getting sense out of. I might look at it more later, but right now I'm kind of fed up with it...

 

post-12820-0-35328400-1424936658_thumb.p

 

A version against white rather than the original image is in the spoiler tag if you want it. If you want the Gimp file with the layers, let me know and we'll figure out how to get it to you.

 

post-12820-0-30273000-1424936689_thumb.p

 

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So... I started looking at the women's script on the Shallan's notebook page about the lait plant life which was analyzed here thinking that my goal was to figure out which vowel sounds correspond to the different vowel symbols (since English vowels are a mess...) and whether there is anything interesting going on with diphthongs.  Instead, I got distracted with looking at the translation and, after poking at it for a while with zhencongming, have an update for lines 2 and 3. I think the beginning of the passage is:

 

"The statement that intrigues me though is that of King Nohadon. He implies Urithiru could be reached by any of the main cities. If such a thing were possible, evidence of the roads would likely be in place among the kingdoms of today."

 

I added a transparent layer over the page and did my best to trace the women's script in black, filling in what I could by symmetry in blue. Things in green are places where the script is reasonably clear but funky.  I filled the word "likely" in in red so that we can see how perfectly it fits in (though hidden by the plant).  There are things in line 5 that I really feel like we ought to be able to figure out, but that I'm not currently getting sense out of. I might look at it more later, but right now I'm kind of fed up with it...

 

attachicon.giflait-script-traced.png

 

A version against white rather than the original image is in the spoiler tag if you want it. If you want the Gimp file with the layers, let me know and we'll figure out how to get it to you.

 

I think it's been translated. Here's a key: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/gallery/image/466-alethi-key-01/

 

Good job on figuring that out yourself, though! Keep up the good work.

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