Stormlight Archive Translation Guide

[Jofwu]

5 hours ago, Knghtstlker said:

Something I believe has gone over my head. should I strike through the symmetry line to signify beginning and ends of words?

Yes, that's how it's shown in the artwork. e.g. https://brandonsanderson.com/beta/wp-content/gallery/stormlight-1-art-gallery/twok_navani-1-webres.jpg

[Zmann966]

21 hours ago, Argent said:

Both are hard, though Isaac didn't have that information (or didn't get it from me). 

So is it common thought that such things with both hard and soft pronunciations ("g", "ch", "c") are written as read or as pronounced?
i.e. "Gene" would have the same "g" as Evgeni or would it use the J glyph?

Or did Isaac just assume your pronunciation? (Or google it) 
 

[Argent]

24 minutes ago, Zmann966 said:

So is it common thought that such things with both hard and soft pronunciations ("g", "ch", "c") are written as read or as pronounced?
i.e. "Gene" would have the same "g" as Evgeni or would it use the J glyph?

Or did Isaac just assume your pronunciation? (Or google it) 
 

He said that the pronunciation was not that important because the Alethi don't read glyphs, they memorize them. 

[SilverTiger]

On 10/7/2017 at 5:15 AM, Knghtstlker said:

I'm trying to print them out, but the spaces and stuff are messing me up, I've gotten a bunch of lines per page, but the colors are too distorted. I don't have very good software, anyone think they can take a better shot at it then me? I'm trying it's just not working very well. HAHA. This is the basic crop I took to remove the borders from the image so I can lay multiples next to each other. Unfortunately, it's gotten too distorted. Ideally, they would be landscaped. Because that seems to favor the Alethi script more. Since the spacing and neatness is paramount. Also cant figure out how to print multiple on the same page.  

I tried printing it too, could not get the lines to come out clearly. Of course, I am really bad at software, so all I can do is hope that someone can solve this. Guess I just have to go back to lined paper...

[Knghtstlker]

Yes, I found it helps to enhance the colors in a photo editor. However, if someone has access to the software used to emboss patches on hats and shirts, that software can be used to reduce the amount of colors and it also clean up the lines quite a bit. I can’t do it from my room as I’m staying in a Containerized Housing Unit “Chu”, and have absolutely horrid internet incapable of downloading such software, and I definitely can’t download that software at my work computer. So, if anyone has access to such software willing to clean it up a bit it would help a great deal. Altering the lines to make them pop a bit more after printing. 

[SilverTiger]

It is possible to use Word to make a makeshift sheet. Although, lined paper works okay.

[Rogueshar]

I just read through this entire thread, and I've got to say I'm thoroughly impressed. I'm hiring all of you if I ever have to create my own alphabet . I also wanted to note how much the Women's alphabet reminds me of sound waves and the way it appears when you sound something out. I think that's really cool. Sorry if it sounds like I'm gushing, I'm just a bit overwhelmed at the dedication you guys put into this. 

[Argent]

29 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

I also wanted to note how much the Women's alphabet reminds me of sound waves and the way it appears when you sound something out.

I believe that is actually by design. I feel like we've seen Brandon comment how asking Isaac to try something exactly like when designing the script.

30 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Sorry if it sounds like I'm gushing, I'm just a bit overwhelmed at the dedication you guys put into this. 

If you don't mind a bit of advice from weary 27 years old man, never apologize for your enthusiasm, it's one of the purest emotions I can think of. But especially in this fandom, we all gush. All the time. A lot of us probably need to see a doctor about it.

[FollowYourMuse]

8 hours ago, Argent said:

If you don't mind a bit of advice from weary 27 years old man, never apologize for your enthusiasm, it's one of the purest emotions I can think of. But especially in this fandom, we all gush. All the time. A lot of us probably need to see a doctor about it.

I agree with this 100%. One of the best things you can do is be enthusiastic about things. Life with passions is much more enjoyable. Weary twice as many years as @argent.

[Landis963]

On 10/7/2017 at 3:15 PM, Harakeke said:

I took a crack at organizing my notes a bit. It's mostly guesswork, but I think I like it better than the current single-letter key.
:

Where's "Th" on the consonants listing?  As in "Ruthar" or "Thalath"?  

[Jofwu]

21 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Where's "Th" on the consonants listing?  As in "Ruthar" or "Thalath"?  

We don't have a glyph for Thalath I think? And last I checked, nobody had cracked which highprince glyph was Ruthar's. (There's a guess, but no clear confirmation)

[Landis963]

2 minutes ago, jofwu said:

We don't have a glyph for Thalath I think? And last I checked, nobody had cracked which highprince glyph was Ruthar's. (There's a guess, but no clear confirmation)

But "Th" is a known component of the Alethi syllabary that I don't see on Harakeke's new chart, which is where my confusion sprang from.  

[Harakeke]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:03 AM, Landis963 said:

But "Th" is a known component of the Alethi syllabary that I don't see on Harakeke's new chart, which is where my confusion sprang from.  

Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this new way of approaching glyphs. My gut tells me it's on the right track, but that key is nowhere near complete -- it doesn't even cover everything I worked out in my handwritten notes. (Sidenote: I'm starting to sympathize with Taravangian. Is that good or bad?)  I expect we'll get a wealth of new information to work with once Oathbringer comes out, so I'm hesitant to spend too much more time squinting at Highprince glyphs. I'm even tempted to take the glyph key off the first post, because I very much suspect now that it is wildly inaccurate.

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Harakeke

[Jofwu]

I mentioned a discrepancy between khokh and linil a few pages back. Isaac confirmed that it's a typo in the text.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/78wae1/we_are_shire_post_mint_ama_we_make_fantasy_coins/doxfoyn/?context=3

Good news. It means our understanding of "Kh" and "L" weren't totally backwards.

[Argent]

Unlike @jofwu I had much less success in learning things from Isaac - useful things, at least =\

Quote

Argent

• In analyzing the glyphs we've seen in the books, we've noticed that some of their "components" resemble the Thaylen symbols for consonants. The Thaylen don't have letters for vowels though - does that mean that glyphs also disregard vowels 100% of the time, or do vowels affect the way a glyph is written? For example, would "viv" and "vev" look exactly the same, or would there be some differences?
  • If vowels do affect the glyphs, do they affect them by somehow changing the consonant lines?
• Our best theory for deciphering new glyphs is that the glyph "letters" actually correspond to two English letters - so writing "vev" is more akin to writing <ve> followed by <v_> (or perhaps <_v> followed by <ev>). How much of this is in the right direction?

Isaac Stewart

Good questions! The vowels don't affect the glyphs any more than the consonants do. I'm going to RAFO about the glyphs relationship with Thaylen. You're on the right track, however, on half of the word being written and then mirrored. That said, please remember that glyphs aren't meant to be read or even deciphered. They're learned in the same way that we can look at dozens of stylized pictures of cats and still be able to tell that it's a cat.
 

Argent

So, you've said that glyphs are not meant to be read several times, and I know that, but I think I've been misunderstanding you. I've been assuming they are just too complex and decorated - like an extravagant font. Are you saying they are not a hard writing system instead?

There are obviously some rules to how the glyphs are designed, but does your reply mean that there is always a little bit of "I'll do what looks cool"? Kind of like how the band Koяn decided to flip the "R" - it's still recognizable enough, but there's no rule that says when you can and can't do that?

Isaac Stewart

Let's see if I can explain further. Glyphs are recognized rather than read. If you learn the letters in an alphabet and you come upon an unfamiliar word, you can be reasonably certain you'll know how to pronounce it if you're already fluent in the language. You can at least read it, and you might know from context what it means. Glyphs are different in that if you come upon an unfamiliar glyph you might be able to guess what it means by its shape, but until someone tells you "that glyph means 'soup'" then you're still guessing.

The calligrapher's guild has rules they follow in creating glyphs, and there's a lot of artistic license, like the flipped R in Koяn, for the very reason that the guild isn't expecting people to read the glyphs. Those in the guild--and some scholars who are interested in how glyphs morph over time--might be able to decipher some of the glyphs for academic purposes.

How's that? Any clearer?

Source: Shire Mint Post AMA

So, the (disheartening for our efforts) takeaways:

• The vowels don't affect the glyphs any more than the consonants do.
• RAFO about the glyphs relationship with Thaylen.
• glyphs aren't meant to be read or even deciphered.
• Glyphs are different in that if you come upon an unfamiliar glyph you might be able to guess what it means by its shape, but until someone tells you "that glyph means 'soup'" then you're still guessing.
• The calligrapher's guild has rules they follow in creating glyphs, and there's a lot of artistic license, like the flipped R in Koяn
  • Those in the guild--and some scholars who are interested in how glyphs morph over time--might be able to decipher some of the glyphs for academic purposes.

 

[Harakeke]

Okay, that makes sense, and it jives with our various attempts at deciphering where we'd be able to pick out a plausible letter or two, but the rest was a muddle. It sounds like glyphs are incredibly "lossy": while there may be a letter that inspires their overall layout, most of the design consists of screw-you lines. So for example, the spoken words "Khokh Linil" would be written something like "K~{..+  L/*!,,= " With that in mind, I don't think we'll ever have a key like we do for Thaylen or the Women's Script. I don't think trying to decipher glyphs is entirely fruitless though, because some of the simpler glyphs (like sas) are definitely "readable" from their component parts. Likewise, Navani's giant ketek has to have some sort of underlying linguistic structure, otherwise it's just arbitrary lines.  I think we've exhausted just about all the material we have to work with for now, but I think that eventually we'll be able to reverse-engineer the calligrapher's guild rules. We're only on Book 2 of the series, after all -- and I for one am enjoying the mystery!

[ccstat]

Got a follow-up response from Isaac on Reddit:

Quote

Ccstat:

I admit I'm still a little confused. The glyphs are recognized based on their shapes, but those shapes also appear to be highly mutable. I'm not sure how to reconcile those two ideas.

If an established glyph can be stylized into a crown, a skyeel, or the other shapes that highprinces use as their symbols, how does someone associate the new shape with the standard one with which they are familiar? Does the stylized version preserve some core recognizable shape (since the constituent graphemes alone wouldn't be enough to decipher the meaning)? Or does each instance of a glyph have to be learned separately?

Isaac:

Iagree that those two ideas are hard to reconcile! Let me see if I can explain it a bit more without giving too much away.

There's a calligrapher's guild that creates (and I suspect controls to a certain extent) the official glyphs. If a new glyph needs to be made, they do it in a way they see is proper, based on canonized rules that have developed over time.

That doesn't keep amateur glyphmakers from creating things from time to time, and there's certainly a shift in shape as glyphs morph through the ages. The Guild is probably a lot like the Oxford English Dictionary folks, occasionally canonizing popular but unauthorized glyphs that get used so much that they become ubiquitous.

Usually it's just guild members who are morphing glyphs into poems and such. If a nobleperson wants a glyph for their house, they go to someone authorized by the guild, and they'll stylize things into a crown, a hammer, etc. A good example of this will be seen in one of the pieces of art in the new book. We've seen Dalinar's Tower and Crown. Watch for the Sword and Crown and compare the shapes inside the Sword with the shapes inside the Tower. Maybe that will help with some understanding.

 

[Argent]

24 minutes ago, ccstat said:

A good example of this will be seen in one of the pieces of art in the new book. We've seen Dalinar's Tower and Crown. Watch for the Sword and Crown and compare the shapes inside the Sword with the shapes inside the Tower. Maybe that will help with some understanding.

Oooh, Elhokar's glyphpair. Good job!

[Argent]

Another clarification by Isaac:

Quote

Isaac Stewart

There's definitely a relationship between the Thaylen letters and some of the glyph components (although it's not the biggest part of what makes up the glyphs). Imagine if back in the middle ages a culture decided to use some latin letters as the basis for symbols so that it would be easy to mark things for people who don't read. This hypothetical culture threw in a smattering of other alphabets in there too. So, if that sort of thing developed naturally over time with phonemes and symbols getting added as the culture encountered other cultures, then you might get a bit of an idea of what's going on with the glyphs.

 

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, ccstat said:

Usually it's just guild members who are morphing glyphs into poems and such. If a nobleperson wants a glyph for their house, they go to someone authorized by the guild, and they'll stylize things into a crown, a hammer, etc. A good example of this will be seen in one of the pieces of art in the new book. We've seen Dalinar's Tower and Crown. Watch for the Sword and Crown and compare the shapes inside the Sword with the shapes inside the Tower. Maybe that will help with some understanding.

This still seems slightly off when compared to the Bridge Four tattoo scene:

Quote

...covering up the scar of his slave’s brand with the glyphs Kaladin had provided...
Hobber nodded. “That’s good, but it’s not enough. Add ‘Bridge Four’ to it. Freedom, Bridge Four.” ...
And yet, he sat stubbornly until Kaladin drew out the proper glyphs for the tattooist...
- Words of Radiance CH 2

That scene, when combined with the image between chapters 4 and 5, always seemed to me that since Kaladin learned to read glyphs during his surgeon's apprenticeship that he was able to make the tattoo because there is readable content.

This makes me wonder if the "internals" of a glyph are like radicals in Chinese.

For example: Dragon (long form and Short form)

龍 -> 龙   

And, evolved over time:

So, I wonder if it is possible that elements of the internals are what are recognizable and indicate pronunciation and/or meaning. There has to be some standardization if Sigzil could take notes with glyph numbers and Kaladin could stylize Freedom, Kholin, 1173, etc. based off of what his parents taught him.

 

Actually, thinking about it, there seems to be disconnects with other examples of books being read.

Quote

Kaladin glanced to the side. This man’s forehead brand was older than Kaladin’s, the skin around the scar faded to white. What was that glyphpair? “Sas morom,” Kaladin said. It was the highlord’s district where the man had originally been branded.

-Way of Kings CH 2

 

Quote

As Rock pulled the gemstones out of the final Parshendi’s beard, Kaladin held one of the knives up near Dunny’s torch, inspecting the detailed carving. “Those look like glyphs,” he said, showing it to Teft.

“I can’t read glyphs, boy.”

Oh, right, Kaladin thought. Well, if they were glyphs, they weren’t ones he was familiar with. Of course, you could draw most glyphs in complex ways that made it hard to read them, unless you knew exactly what to look for.

- WoK CH 27

Quote

Amaram’s standard was already flying, a burgundy field blazoned with a dark green glyphpair shaped like a whitespine with tusks upraised. Merem and khakh, honor and determination.

WoK CH 47

 

So, they are memorized more than read; but there seem to be components to "look for" that can indicate meaning or pronunciation. At least that's what I get out of all of this.

[Jofwu]

Yeah, I made this Chinese comparison a few pages back, and I think it's what's going on. Also basically what Isaac was describing with building pictographs with Latin letters thrown in.

I do wonder what to make of the Bride 4 tattoo. I can easily see how Freedom isn't far off from "normal". The 1176 isn't terribly stylized (and numbers are different). But that "Kholin" is very different from the normal Kholin glyph. Unless there's an alternate form we don't know of, I don't see how it would be recognizable in such a different shape.

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

but there seem to be components to "look for" that can indicate meaning or pronunciation.

What makes you say that? In all of these examples, I think the point is that he either recognizes the glyph or he doesn't. There's nothing to indicate that the glyph assists with pronunciation. He doesn't try to sound out the Parshendi glyph and wonder what it means. It's just a mysterious jumble of glyph-like strokes.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, jofwu said:

What makes you say that?

The linked examples. In the first case, it's almost a direct quote:

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Of course, you could draw most glyphs in complex ways that made it hard to read them, unless you knew exactly what to look for.

WoK CH 47

As far as pronunciation indicators, I think we are reading the same section very differently. Having studied Chinese, Korean and Japanese (and having lived in Korea and Japan), I read this:

21 hours ago, Treamayne said:

...the skin around the scar faded to white. What was that glyphpair? “Sas morom,” Kaladin said. It was the highlord’s district where the man had originally been branded.

-Way of Kings CH 2

As "Sas" being in common with his own brand, but "Morom" would have to have a pronunciation indicator. At least, it makes no sense to me that a surgeon's apprentice with an incomplete indication would have all of the highlord district glyphpair's memorized. It seemed more likely that he knows it is a highlord glyphpair due to context, he kno's "Sas" because it is in common with his own brand, and he can guess "morom" due to indicators.  

[Jofwu]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

At least, it makes no sense to me that a surgeon's apprentice with an incomplete indication would have all of the highlord district glyphpair's memorized.

Yeah, I think that's precisely what's happening. Sort of... He knows the glyphpair represents a highlord by context. The individual glyphs mean other things. "Morom" means something, and as someone who can read glyphs Kaladin would know what it means. For example, one of the glyphs in Amaram's glyphpair is "merem" which means "honor". Kaladin knows glyphpairs for every tiny piece of the human body. He definitely knows and recognizes the glyphs like these.

Something super obscure, foreign, and/or ancient isn't going to mean anything to him. It's obviously a glyph, but there's nothing to indicate meaning or pronunciation. The other case where he wouldn't recognize one is of it's highly stylized to the point that it breaks normal writing conventions. Which is what he's talking about at the end of that one quote.

[Argent]

So, I don't know if I ever shared this here, but a couple of days after this thread went on an 18 month hiatus in 2014, I had asked Isaac for clearer, higher resolution versions of the highprinces' glyphpairs, the ones on the warcamps map. He sent me this:

Even if this is new to us, it probably won't get us very far, considering the recent reiteration that "glyphs are memorized, not read", but I thought people could at least enjoy clearer versions of those glyphpairs.

[Pagerunner]

21 hours ago, Argent said:

So, I don't know if I ever shared this here, but a couple of days after this thread went on an 18 month hiatus in 2014, I had asked Isaac for clearer, higher resolution versions of the highprinces' glyphpairs, the ones on the warcamps map. He sent me this:

Even if this is new to us, it probably won't get us very far, considering the recent reiteration that "glyphs are memorized, not read", but I thought people could at least enjoy clearer versions of those glyphpairs.

There are definitely some components that I can now see on these that match up to components found in other glyphs. (Like the ever-present "R" candidate in the top-right, and a certain swoopy bit in the one below that which appears in both your glyph and in the WoR ketek.) I'll still hold that "memorized, not read" doesn't discount our approach; after all, that's what we began with. Glyphs aren't words, but there are phonetic aspects in them. I think what we see here is that all the Highprince glyphs clearly have a single line down the middle; that might be a non-phonetic glyph component.

Also, this reminds me, I need to print off large copies of all our glyphs and bring a small whiteboard with me to my signing. See if there's anyone at the signing who can add a fresh perspective. (Well, besides Brandon, of course.)