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@Pagerunner I finally got around to reading this full thread, and here's my understanding...

Harakake, Argent, and others stared at glyphs a whole lot and came up with the glyphs document in the first post of this thread. I believe the black ones are more certain while the grey have proven more difficult. Each symbol seems to represent a consonant. The vowels don't seem to be indicated in any way- at least not necessarily. And you tend to see lots of "screw you" lines (and hooks, dots, etc.) as well which have no meaning. The idea is that a glyph is made up of the consonants in the word (the in-world/Alethi word - not the English). For example, if you look at something like the "Kholin" glyph (not the khokh linl glyphpair) you should theoretically be able to find the symbols for K, L, and N. These symbols generally seem to start at the top center of the glyph and work their way outward (being symmetrical).

So if you skim through this thread (especially early on) you'll see a lot of people trying to find and correlate the symbols which make up the glyphs. These are what Harakake has shared on the first post. Some of them appear to be similar to the Thaylen script symbols, so that served as a good starting point. Sometimes they're very clear. For example, you can very easily make out the S's in "sas" and "Sadeas", as well as the D tucked between them in "Sadeas". But if you look for these in practice, it's usually very difficult. The guesses at where they can be found are often quite a stretch.

Enter a very important comment by Isaac here:

Quote

...I'll respond to something in that thread regarding names and "screw yous" within glyphs. Readers are trying to pronounce glyphs by reading them. Glyphs aren't read. They're memorized. Sounds might be found in glyphs. Glyphs have evolved from the early days. Just like the Chinese character for "tree" doesn't look like a tree anymore. Alethi glyphs are recognized by overall shape, not by the shapes/sounds that might be found within. For example, the Bridge 4 glyph is still recognizable even if the component shapes are changed.

So it turns out the overall shape and design is a lot more important than the individual components. Perhaps far in the past, these glyphs were constructed from clear symbols representing consonants or syllables. But they've evolved into something more complex. A lot like Chinese or Korean, from what I understand.

The best example I can think of is the comparison between Knights Radiant order symbols and the honorblade glyphs. They're in a totally different configuration, but you can quite intuitively see which of those blades belongs to which order/Herald, right?

Of course, this makes translation/identification very difficult. There are traces of the consonant-symbols... sometimes. But other times they seem to have been warped, added to, or left out completely. So you can't put too much weight on the components.

Concerning glyphpairs... My understanding of these is that all glyphs have a meaning of their own, but sometimes you combine them with another to get a new meaning. And the highprinces do this for their own names. Not certain why, considering they have a single-glyph version as well.... But they do. :)

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Oh, I think I see it now. Glyphs aren't words; they are pieces of art derived from words. The rules for glyph creation say that you have to build it based on the consonants of the word you're going for, but only very simple glyphs will stop there, and most will add a lot of 'screw you' lines because the goal is the creation of a glyph associated with that word, not a strict recreation of the word itself. Like all us who drive associate a red octagon with "Stop," because of it's association with stop signs. We see a red octagon, we know what it means, even if it doesn't say "Stop" on it.

So, most of the glyphs we've seen are identifiers, like an 'avatar,' but if you had to follow certain rules while creating your avatar that tied it back to your 'screen name.' So, there's a Kholin glyph, based on the letters K, L, and N, that signifies Kholin. You can't get all the information for the word 'Kholin' from the glyph, but everyone in Alethkar recognizes that image, and glyph scholars can pick out how it was developed from those three letters. It's possible to create another glyph, based on Kholin, with a different overall shape and different screw-you lines, and when you showed it to people, they'd say "What does this mean?" because they recognize the overall shape they've become accustomed to, not the component pieces. But, if there were two rival Kholin families (let's say Dalinar and Gavilar had split the Kholin princedom in two, North Kholin and South Kholin), the old glyph might stay with Gavilar, and the new one would be Dalinar's. Both are Kholin glyphs, but the ownership and association of each is different. (This makes me think that Roshar and Rishir should have very different glyphs. Same consonants, but you wouldn't use a glyph interchangeably for them both, since Roshar 'owns' one and Rishir would 'own' another.)

But the overall shape of a single glyph can be hard to distinguish at a distance; only the perimeter of the glyph is notable. But using two glyphs, you can combine simple shapes to get more permutations. But, again, these are 'owned' by specific highprinces. Dalinar and Elhokar have split their last name into two pieces, chosen probably for what those words mean. (Maybe Sebarial is hard to piece together form his glyphpair because one of the glyphs that would fit better means "butt," so he had to void it. Scratch that, he probably went the other way and stretched so he could include one that means "butt.") So, Dalinar's khokh/linil glyphpair is different than Elhokar's khokh/linil glyphpair. Because they need unique identifiers for the end product, a two-glyph set, easily recognizable at a distance, that is built from pieces of their name.

Bridge Four has created their own glyph. Most people won't necessarily be able to understand what it means, until they are told "This stands for Bridge Four." But whoever designed it used the words for "Bridge" and "Four," shaping it to look like a bridge crossing a chasm. Once we've learned what it means, we're not looking for the component pieces; we see a picture of a bridge, and we know it's Bridge Four. Same with their freedom tattoo; they'll point to it and say "this means XYZ," and they can go to someone who can read glyphs to confirm "Yes, I see what they're saying, it does say Dalinar Kholin freed them on such-and-such a date."

While that's a very common use, creating an identifying badge, there's also a purer form of art, making a glyph that is extremely complex (like Navani's prayer, or the Surgebinding symbols). It follows the same rule that it must be built on the consonants of that word, but the final product is much more elaborate, since it is first and foremost a piece of art (and should be much more complex than something that can be written in place of a name on a battle map). I suspect there are probably other rules involved, for where the screw-you lines go, what angles they're at, and so on, a form of art that thrives by exerting freedom within strict guidelines (like real-life twelve-tone music).

It makes me think that we can't 'read' glyphs, per se. But, if we assume we know what the glyphs mean, we look at the pieces of the glyphs to validate those ideas. So, we think we see city names or country names in the 'Voidbinding' chart. The question shouldn't be, "Take the subglyphs we can identify and see what it spells," but "Can we make a case that the glyph was built from this word we expect?" Don't break apart the glyph into pieces until we've identified what we think the pieces should be.

Does this make sense? Am I on target?

EDIT: @Landis963, the editor doesn't let me see the original {S} (with square brackets), and it doesn't let me remove the strikethrough formatting. So, I'll be careful going forwards. (Although, I had a square-bracket {B} as well, but it let me remove the bold formatting in the editor. Eh, I won't pretend to understand all the details.)

Edited by Pagerunner
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1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Also, as I peruse the coppermind, I see there are ten fundamental glyphs. Has anyone tried to identify what they are?

The Ten Fundamental glyphs is the proper name for what the fandom generally calls the Radiant Order glyphs.

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5 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

The Ten Fundamental glyphs is the proper name for what the fandom generally calls the Radiant Order glyphs.

It might have been due to available space on the image, but the Ten on the image of Elhokar's Sword looked like simplified versions of the Order Glyphs. Perhaps they were based upon those or vice/versa depending on the timeline?

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Just now, The One Who Connects said:

It might have been due to available space on the image, but the Ten on the image of Elhokar's Sword looked like simplified versions of the Order Glyphs. Perhaps they were based upon those or vice/versa depending on the timeline?

Eh I just think they are the same glyphs, just more artistically rendered in the Double Eye of the Almighty chart, there's a quote somewhere in here that says you can add lines to glyphs without changing their meaning.

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Oh, wow, this is really cool. So, let's say I'm gonna make myself a glyph, based off my avatar. The simplest version can be made using Harekeke's identified glyph-letters, just lined up in a row. But I'm gonna twist it and make the overall shape actually look like my avatar. (Image in spoilers, pardon the crudeness.)

Spoiler

Kakama Glyph.PNG

And, if people squinted really hard and figured out which lines were screw-you lines that would just make it look more like my avatar, they'd be able to work out that it was developed from:

Spoiler

Kakama Glyph 2.PNG

Which would give letters:

Spoiler

K-K-M

But without knowing the context, nobody would be able to figure out the word itself:

Spoiler

Kakama, the name for the Mask of Speed in Bionicle, which is what my profile picture actually is.

So, we're stuck on the first step with the endsheets; we have to figure out the 'simple' glyph they're based on. Maybe it would be worthwhile to actually develop the simple glyph versions of the Heralds' names and the Silver Kingdoms, so we've got stuff to compare? (You've seen my work, I can do it, but it won't be pretty.)

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I collected all the glyphs I could find here, for reference:

@Pagerunner that all sounds about right except for the bit about the "bridge" glyph.

The glyphs for "bridge" and "four" are well known. Anybody who knows how to read glyphs would instantly understand what the "bridge four" tattoo and patch say. I've got both versions we know side by side in the link above. At first glance, to those of us who don't know how to read glyphs, they look different. But a literate Alethi would understand they both say bridge. Kind of like how you know the typed letter "A" and a highly caligraphic version both say the same thing.

Early on in the translating it seems that these guys were trying to find "letters" buried in both symbols. And if you look really hard you can sort of find them. Maybe long long ago the glyph for "bridge" consisted of some letters mashed together. But that's not what an Alethi would look for or see in either of those images. They would simply understand the basic look of the glyph for bridge.

Doesn't mean figuring out some of these possible "letters" is a waste of time. You can see them clearly sometimes, and that clues you in to what the glyph might say. (until we have a glyph dictionary to work with)

Edit:

Well, doesn't help much with the Silver Kingdoms theory, but I realized that the void-Shalash symbol looks astonishingly similar to Kaladin's shash glyph. I really don't think it's a coincidence.

tmp_26611-589cc1e4044f0_VoidSymbol-Unknown6-A.png.a875d42f3e2931579b7f6e9cf68f1bbe781209911.pngtmp_26611-images-1830657479.png

Not really sure what to do with that. Too much contrary evidence to assume these represent the Heralds. And there's not a great kingdom name that fits. Maybe it's a city... Or else maybe the connection between all these isn't so simple as we'd like.

Edited by jofwu
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9 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

So, there's a Kholin glyph, based on the letters K, L, and N, that signifies Kholin. You can't get all the information for the word 'Kholin' from the glyph, but everyone in Alethkar recognizes that image, and glyph scholars can pick out how it was developed from those three letters.

Kholin is actually one of the more well-behaved glyphs, and we have examples of several different depictions. Picking out the component elements isn't so bad as it is with the other Highprinces, whose glyphs are more ostentatious. I particularly appreciate the Tower version of kokh, which practically scream Ks at you! There does seem to be somewhat of a standard way of organizing the component graphemes in glyphs, moving outward and down from the starting point in the upper center.
kohk linl.jpg

Quote

It's possible to create another glyph, based on Kholin, with a different overall shape and different screw-you lines, and when you showed it to people, they'd say "What does this mean?" because they recognize the overall shape they've become accustomed to, not the component pieces. But, if there were two rival Kholin families (let's say Dalinar and Gavilar had split the Kholin princedom in two, North Kholin and South Kholin), the old glyph might stay with Gavilar, and the new one would be Dalinar's. Both are Kholin glyphs, but the ownership and association of each is different.

Yep! In fact Dalinar's glyphpair for "Kholin" is the Tower and Crown shown above, while Elhokar's is a Tower and Sword.  We haven't seen what Elhokar's looks like, but I imagine you'd be able to tell the resemblance at a glance.

 

Quote

Maybe it would be worthwhile to actually develop the simple glyph versions of the Heralds' names and the Silver Kingdoms, so we've got stuff to compare? 

These probably aren't particularly accurate, but they were fun to make...

silver kingdoms.jpg

Edited by Harakeke
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23 minutes ago, Gravy Sprinkles said:

So to clarify, the ones on the first pages are up to date? Thanks!

Yep! And for the super-nerdy, you can tell which revision a key is on by the Vorin numeral next to my signature.  The higher the number, the more recent the version.

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16 hours ago, Harakeke said:

These probably aren't particularly accurate, but they were fun to make...

silver kingdoms.jpg

Neat! But it seems like you've doubled up on the symmetry, that the glyph for Alethela would just be based on half of the world (aleth-thela, use L-Th to make the glyph).

Let me explain in a little more detail, since I know I have some assumptions. There are 'root' words, which don't necessarily need to be palindromes, that are used to create glyphs and names. These root words can be reflected across the last letter to form a holy name. When creating glyphs, however, everything is reflected across the first letter. Taln's holy name is where I see this play out: they take the root word "Talen" and reflect it around the last letter to get "Talenelat." But, a hypothetical glyph of Talen would look like N-L-T-|-T-L-N. (Line in the center because I'm pretty sure people get a line down the middle, like all of the Highprince glyphs. I suspect there are many non-grammatical rules for glyph creation.)

So, I interpret the Silver Kingdoms as having holy names already, and we need to step back to the root word to build the glyphs. I'd basically cut the edges off all of your glyphs. Does that make sense? I'm open to being talked out of this conclusion. But I'm sure you agree Natanatan and Shin Kak Nish are getting a little messy...

Side note, Valhav's symbol really reminds me of the Truthwatcher's Suregbinding symbol. Unfortunately, that conflicts with the ID of Roshar glyphs within the Truthwatcher's Voidbinding symbol. (We really need better shorthand for these...)

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Alright, I took your mock-ups @Harakeke and this is what I came up with:

SilverKingdomsAnalysis.png

Sorry for the senseless order.

I started with the assumption that Rishir and Thalath are correct. The Roshar glyph is uncanny, so if these are Silver Kingdoms then Rishir is too phonetically similar not to connect them. And the one for Thalath doesn't fit perfectly, but I don't know why else it would be on the Kharbranth drawing. I suppose it could just be there for the meaning of the essences or something Vorin-y. But I'm gonna stick with it without better logic I can see. Especially since none of the other glyph concepts jump out at me for that symbol.

From there I just tried to match the remaining eight, taking into consideration that the "original" glyph may be organized differently than these guesses, and trying to see how it might have evolved (smoothing out, extra lines/hooks, etc.) into something more artsy.

I think the first ones I paired and felt good about where Alethela, Valhav, Sela Tales, and Shin Kak Nish. From there, I figured Makabakam was the one with all the K-looking things and Iri kind of made sense if you ignored the determined attempt to add radial lines and x-axis symmetry. Which left Natanatan and Aimia.

Side note... Has anyone considered the connection between Silver Kingdoms and the KR order glyphs?

Edit: Also probably good to remember that the names of the Silver Kingdoms as we know them may be Vorin-ified, right?

Edit 2: Didn't realize I missed some posts while whipping this up. @Pagerunner, it's hard to say with the symmetry. I think it's highly possible that the symbols would be based on a root of these kingdom names, but that could be wrong. And if they are, guessing the root isn't as easy as chopping off half the word. Looking at how the Herald names were turned symmetrical... sometimes they just took the name and flipped it over. But some of them were already symmetrical, some of them have letters chopped off, and some of them have letters added.

Edited by jofwu
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Rishir-01.png

These are definitely the same glyph -- awesome find! I'm less convinced they say Rishir/Roshar though, because I really can't find an Sh anywhere. The three elements along the top (teal, magenta, red) strike me as decorative elements. 

Glyph symmetry and how it might relate to pronunciation is something that hasn't been examined all that much. There's WOB that the pronunciation/meaning of glyphs is memorized, not read phonetically. There do seem to be some structural conventions though, so I don't think someone would necessarily have to reconstruct the proto-Vorin root word to be able to write a glyph. Artists who create new glyphs (like Navani's Ketek) are probably accustomed to seeing each "letter" as a pair of mirrored symbols. Most glyphs have simple symmetry along the vertical axis, similar to how the Alethi women's script has symmetry along the horizontal axis: 

I AM NOT A VOIDBRINGER
I ᗄʍ NO⊥ ᗄ ⋀OIDᗷᖉINCEᖉ

There are some weird counter-examples though, like Kaladin's tatoo modification. Taken together it's roughly symmetrical, but each glyph only has one half of the component graphemes. Since he was modifying an existing glyph, this is probably not standard orthography -- like how company logos will tweak letters for aesthetic effect.  Plus, writing is a feminine art in Alethkar, so even though his Vev Gesheh is pretty spiffy, he probably wasn't formally trained in the finer points of glyph construction. 

Then there are the so-called "voidbinding" glyphs with their strange rotational symmetry.

Edited by Harakeke
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15 minutes ago, Harakeke said:

Rishir-01.png

 

So, this prompts a couple questions about specific letter choice that you've included in your chart. Taking the five identified Highprince glyphs (Kholin, Sadeas, Roion, Sebarial, Aladar) as the gold standard, it seems like that curved line in blue could be an "N" (Kholin and Roion both have a curved, somewhat hooked line on the bottom-outside of their glyphs.) But there's nothing in Kholin and Roion that looks like your proposed "N."

Similar question for "L" - I can see where it's coming from in Aladar; but it looks like Kholin and Sebarial have a similar curly-Q portion, not a stepped portion like you've proposed for "L."

Lastly, "V." Vamah isn't identified on any maps, so how did we determine which glyph corresponded to its highprince without a M, H, or V in any of the known Highprince glyphs?

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The highprince names are really squirrely, with lots of exaggerations, artistic distortions and possibly some "contractions". This highlights how far a glyph can deviate from its original root, and how hard it is to reconstruct graphemes from these examples. There are much clearer instances of N in Kaladin's Nahn. If I recall, L and V are based on their Thaylen analogs, with plausible translations of Vamah, Aladar, and Kholin as tentative confirmation.

Edited by Harakeke
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2 hours ago, Harakeke said:

Rishir-01.png

These are definitely the same glyph -- awesome find! I'm less convinced they say Rishir/Roshar though, because I really can't find an Sh anywhere. The three elements along the top (teal, magenta, red) strike me as decorative elements.

Eh... It's got two clear Rs and I think you could argue the C shape thing was/is an Sh, perhaps with a missing "tail".

But the Rs alone are enough for me. Did you see all the examples on the Glyphs page I made though? That glyph surrounds the compass rose AND border on every official map of the full continent. Plus it shows up behind the "Roshar" title. Has me pretty convinced on the Roshar translation. :-)

At least until there's a better option out there.

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Hey, how fast and loose can we play with order? Been looking at the Highprince glyphs some more, and it looks like the swirly Kholin and the straight Kholin have the same letters, in different orders. (I'm trying to build my own glyph alphabet from scratch, rather than start with the Thaylen letters, so right now I've got some quite different than Harakeke. It's still in progress, so don't get distracted. Regardless of how the letters may have been enhanced or simplified from their 'true' forms, they are undoubtedly the same letters in both forms of the Kholin glyph.)

Kholin Glyphs.png

So, my takeaway, is that Jofwu's theoretical Roshar glyph might be fine with both R's next to each other, even though there are two in the word.

 

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