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That's possible. While I agree the Alethi Glyphs are probably phonetically derived, I think it is more likely that the glyphs and Thaylen alphabet have a common ancestor (I'll call Dawn Script for now, based on the Dawnchant even though the books seem to use Dawnchant for both spoken and written). So, if Dawn Script was an alphabetic system (Abjad, Abugida or even possibly a Syllabary) then it could feasibly evolve in different areas into the phonetic glyph system(s) (Alethi and Veden if they are different) and the Thaylen Abjad and possibly other writing systems.

 

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10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think it is more likely that the Glyphs and Thaylen alphabet have a common ancestor (I'll call Dawn Script for now, based on the Dawnchant even though the books seem to use Dawnchant for both spoken and written).

Quote

Our basic language families are:

Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Nathan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here.

Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these.

Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the Dawnchant. Shin, Parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different.

Iri: Iriali, Reshi, Purelake dialects, Riran, and some surrounding languages.

Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for.

That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy.

According to this, Alethi (though he doesn't specify Women's script or Glyphs) and Thaylen do share a common root, albeit a distant one. It does not appear to be related to the Dawnchant though.

Of additional note is that nowhere in the reddit conversation, or the forum thread it spawned do they specify if these language family trees are along spoken lines, written lines, or both. So the relevancy to this thread may be limited.

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Awesome post, thank you for sharing that.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Of additional note is that nowhere in the reddit conversation, or the forum thread it spawned do they specify if these language family trees are along spoken lines, written lines, or both.

If he meant related in the standard lingual anthropological sense, then it will be Grammatically related. Many related language families will share an alphabet (Spanish/French/Itailian, Farsi/Pashtu/Dari, etc) but many will also not (Hindi and Urdu, when spoken are called Hindustani and are nearly identical, but use completely different alphabets; Korean and Japanese are related and grammatically similar, but also have very different alphabets and even use their Chinese character loan words differently).

What really ties a language family together is the grammar structure. For example, there has been a lot of vocabulary exchange between Chinese and Korean/Japanese; but they aren't consider related as the grammar of Chinese is completely different (despite all three langauge writing with the same/similar logographs, if not exclusively, and sharing related vocabulary).

Here is an Ethnologue Hebrew Language tree example to show how related languages can be mapped backwards to common ancestors.

 

 

Edited by Treamayne
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Sorry to change the subject, but here's an observation about some of the glyphs. It's a possible insight that you can't get from the Thaylen script.

Ring theory.png

On the Frostlands map, the word "Alethkar" just starts with L, so obviously the Thaylens don't indicate an initial vowel. But maybe the old proto-Vorin language did. (Most Earth abjads do.)

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  • 1 month later...

So I've been trying to figure out the the so-called Voidbinding chart (I really don't think it has anything to do with voidbinding). 

Here's the one thing I can say conclusively: the lower middle symbol, which corresponds to Truthwatchers/Paliah on the surgebinding chart, is the same symbol that makes up the border around the compass rose. The main symbol appears to be an S or an R. The smaller symbols on top (marked in green) might be H, or even Sh. It's hard to tell.

Truthwatch.png

Not sure what this means, but given the context of the compass, I'd be inclined to guess that it either says "Roshar" or "Urithiru." In either case, it would suggest that the other symbols on this chart might be places, like, perhaps, the Dawncities. Indeed, the Jezrien/Windrunner symbol looks a bit like "Kholinar." But to me, it also looks a lot like "Kaladin," so my gut feelings might not be reliable here. Really not sure about this one, but here's what I think I'm seeing:

VoidKal.png

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6 minutes ago, Harakeke said:

That's a fantastic observation! I like your idea that these could correspond to specific locations. Another possibility might be the 10 Silver Kingdoms.

If one of those glyphs corresponds to "Ah-L-ey-Th" (Alethela) then they're the Silver Kingdoms.  If not, we can start plugging in cities and hoping we get lucky.  

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38 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

If one of those glyphs corresponds to "Ah-L-ey-Th" (Alethela) then they're the Silver Kingdoms.  If not, we can start plugging in cities and hoping we get lucky.  

Welcome to the last 45 minutes of my life. The tricky part is that we're still not sure what Th looks like. On the Frostlands map, "Alethkar" is "LTHKR," using an T-H digraph, like English. Alethi might be the same way, or they might be using a dedicated letter, like the Greek theta or the Norse thorn.

The place to look is they highprince glyphs. Five of them are identified: Kholin, Sadeas, Sebarial, Aladar, and Roion, none of which contain Th. But the remaining five are Ruthar, Hatham, Thanadal, and Vamah -- four of which contain Th. But I've had no luck cracking those.

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This is the latest key I could find, presumably by @Harakeke?

And... holy crap... check this out...

The "voidbinding chart" glyph corresponding with Jezrien/Windrunners? Looks a LOT to me like "L TH L". Only thing that seems off is an extra line on the first L, right? And notice the "u" shaped portion at the top of the symbol? Looks a lot like your recent post about words that begin with vowels @Belzedar.

This looks like "Alethela" to me.

Could it be that the "voidbinding chart" symbols are the names of the Silver Kingdoms? If that's the case, how would the Truthwatcher/Paliah one go? Rishir?

Edited by jofwu
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21 minutes ago, jofwu said:

This is the latest key I could find, presumably by @Harakeke?

And... holy crap... check this out...

The "voidbinding chart" glyph corresponding with Jezrien/Windrunners? Looks a LOT to me like "L TH L". Only thing that seems off is an extra line on the first L, right? And notice the "u" shaped portion at the top of the symbol? Looks a lot like your recent post about words that begin with vowels @Belzedar.

This looks like "Alethela" to me.

Holy crap is right! Where has that key been? Why haven't I found that?

And... orientation indicates the preceding vowel? That's huge. I never even imagined...

 

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2 hours ago, Belzedar said:

So I've been trying to figure out the the so-called Voidbinding chart (I really don't think it has anything to do with voidbinding). 

Here's the one thing I can say conclusively: the lower middle symbol, which corresponds to Truthwatchers/Paliah on the surgebinding chart, is the same symbol that makes up the border around the compass rose. The main symbol appears to be an S or an R. The smaller symbols on top (marked in green) might be H, or even Sh. It's hard to tell.

<snip>

Not sure what this means, but given the context of the compass, I'd be inclined to guess that it either says "Roshar" or "Urithiru." In either case, it would suggest that the other symbols on this chart might be places, like, perhaps, the Dawncities. Indeed, the Jezrien/Windrunner symbol looks a bit like "Kholinar." But to me, it also looks a lot like "Kaladin," so my gut feelings might not be reliable here. Really not sure about this one, but here's what I think I'm seeing:

<snip>

I'm still getting up to speed on glyphs, but is it possible that it stands for "Roshar" on compass and "Rishir" in the KR chart? Same consonants, different vowels?

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@Harakeke, can you confirm the key I linked is fairly accurate? I assume the greyed out symbols aren't certain? Or just a general update on what you know so far about how glyphs work? Some of the details/discoveries seem to be buried in this thread.

And now that I think about it... The glyphs on the "voidbinding chart" are probably NOT Alethi glyphs, are they? Wouldn't we expect them to be Dawnchant glyphs? Which means translating/confirming this theory about the Silver Kingdoms might be tricky...

15 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm still getting up to speed on glyphs, but is it possible that it stands for "Roshar" on compass and "Rishir" in the KR chart? Same consonants, different vowels?

As far as I understand, that is possible.

Though that one does seem... not quite right. If it IS two R's, they're crammed together. No room for an Sh or a Th...

Edited by jofwu
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7 minutes ago, jofwu said:

And now that I think about it... The glyphs on the "voidbinding chart" are probably NOT Alethi glyphs, are they? Wouldn't we expect them to be Dawnchant glyphs? Which means translating/confirming this theory about the Silver Kingdoms might be tricky...

Why wouldn't they be Alethi? The woman on the border has a covered safehand, so it's not that ancient.

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25 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Holy crap is right! Where has that key been? Why haven't I found that?

And... orientation indicates the preceding vowel? That's huge. I never even imagined...

 

That's a super-old, outdated version. My idea that orientation mattered didn't pan out.
The most up-to-date chart is in the first post here.

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5 minutes ago, Harakeke said:

That's a super-old, outdated version. My idea that orientation mattered didn't pan out.
The most up-to-date chart is in the first post here.

Ah, thanks. One question... Does that mean you believe (a) the orientation varies and seems arbitrary, (b) the orientation seems to matter but you can't see how, or (c) orientation does matter but doesn't vary (i.e. the up-to-date chart shows the ONLY correct form?)

Edited by jofwu
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36 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Ah, thanks. One question... Does that mean you believe (a) the orientation varies and seems arbitrary, (b) the orientation seems to matter but you can't see how, or (c) orientation does matter but doesn't vary (i.e. the up-to-date chart shows the ONLY correct form?)

The best explanation seems to be C. What I took to be rotated letters early on are better explained as screw-you lines added for decorative effect.

55 minutes ago, jofwu said:

And now that I think about it... The glyphs on the "voidbinding chart" are probably NOT Alethi glyphs, are they? Wouldn't we expect them to be Dawnchant glyphs? Which means translating/confirming this theory about the Silver Kingdoms might be tricky...

The "voidbinding" glyphs seem to share the same component graphemes as their surgebinding counterparts, but they use a sort of rotational symmetry, rather than mirror symmetry like the Alethi glyphs.

Here are the endpaper images rotated and aligned, for anyone who wants to explore possible geographic connections:

aligned endpapers1.jpg

aligned endpapers2.jpg

aligned endpapers3.jpg

aligned endpapers4.jpg

Edited by Harakeke
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Well, I'm not seeing anything super convincing. Even "Alethela" doesn't look as good as it did at first (when I was using an old key). Of course, I guess it's definitely there allowing for extra lines. Unfortunately nothing else even seems close. Even some of them that are relatively simple don't seem to match one of the kingdom names.

For reference, the Silver Kingdoms are:

Aimia - "M" (or "Y M Y"?)
Shin Kak Nish - "Sh N K K N Sh"
Sela Tales - "S L T L S"
Makabakam - "M K B K M"
Valhav - "V L V" ("V L H V"?)
Rishir - "R Sh R"
Thalath - "Th L Th"
Alethela - "L Th L"
Natanatan - "N T N T N"

Edited by jofwu
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1 hour ago, Harakeke said:

That's a super-old, outdated version. My idea that orientation mattered didn't pan out.
The most up-to-date chart is in the first post here.

1 hour ago, Harakeke said:

The best explanation seems to be C. What I took to be rotated letters early on are better explained as screw-you lines added for decorative effect.

That's very interesting, because I'm seeing a lot possibilities in there, including some verification on this Truthwatcher-Roshar glyph.

Compasring.png

So the ring around the compass rose says "Roshar," and the rose itself says "Urithiru."

compassrose.jpg

So all the way back in WoK, the compass was telling us to look for Urithiru in the geographic center of Roshar. Pretty in-depth foreshadowing. 

Edited by Belzedar
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7 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

The compass is telling us to look for Urithiru in the geographic center of Roshar.  

Ha! That would be brilliant.

Seems believable enough for me, but be careful with that one chart. He pointed out that it's dated.

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5 hours ago, jofwu said:

Well, I'm not seeing anything super convincing. Even "Alethela" doesn't look as good as it did at first (when I was using an old key). Of course, I guess it's definitely there allowing for extra lines. Unfortunately nothing else even seems close. Even some of them that are relatively simple don't seem to match one of the kingdom names.

For reference, the Silver Kingdoms are:

Aimia - "M" (or "Y M Y"?)
Shin Kak Nish - "Sh N K K N Sh"
Sela Tales - "S L T L S"
Makabakam - "M K B K M"
Valhav - "V L V" ("V L H V"?)
Rishir - "R Sh R"
Thalath - "Th L Th"
Alethela - "L Th L"
Natanatan - "N T N T N"

You forgot "Iri" ("R" or "E R E")

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Thanks @Landis963

So I'm convinced that the symbols circling the compass rose is "Roshar". The Rs are very clear and it encircles both the compass AND the Silver Kingdoms map. And "Urithiru at the center of Roshar" (arrows and all) is just so good.

With that in mind... How incredibly odd is it that the "Truthwatcher voidbinding symbol" basically says Roshar? Especially given the position of that particular symbol... In the center and sharing the giant red gemstone along with the Bondsmith symbol.

That's got to mean something...

Edited by jofwu
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8 hours ago, jofwu said:

Thanks @Landis963

So I'm convinced that the symbols circling the compass rose is "Roshar". The Rs are very clear and it encircles both the compass AND the Silver Kingdoms map. And "Urithiru at the center of Roshar" (arrows and all) is just so good.

With that in mind... How incredibly odd is it that the "Truthwatcher voidbinding symbol" basically says Roshar? Especially given the position of that particular symbol... In the center and sharing the giant red gemstone along with the Bondsmith symbol.

That's got to mean something...

I thought the consensus was that the Truthwatcher symbol said "Rishir", not "Roshar"?  (It'd be a very subtle distinction, especially since vowels are difficult to discern in glyphs)

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@Landis963 I'm skeptical about the Rishir interpretation, because that one looks identical to Roshar. Even if the vowels aren't indicated in any way, I feel like the glyphs for Rishir and Roshar would be distinct from one another.

Further evidence for Roshar: Didn't realize before, but on the map of modern Roshar, the same glyph can be found (1) around the outside border of the map (mostly obscured, but clear at the corners) and (2) around the circles behind "Ro" and "ar" in the title.

That said...

I just realized/remembered that the void-Dustbringer symbol is on all four corners of the Kharbranth artwork. This further reinforces that these symbols represent locations. This one in particular would most obviously represent Kharbranth itself (or, more accurately, the ancient city that once stood there). Another possibility is that it represents Thalath - the kingdom ancient Kharbranth was located in. The fact that the symbol is on a more modern map suggests... that it's more closely associated with the city itself, I think.

If it represents Thalath, then void-Truthwatcher is most likely Rishir and the others are the rest of the Silver Kingdoms. If it's Kharbranth, then it implies some notable ancient city that sounds like Roshar or Rishir.

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1 hour ago, jofwu said:

I just realized/remembered that the void-Dustbringer symbol is on all four corners of the Kharbranth artwork. This further reinforces that these symbols represent locations. This one in particular would most obviously represent Kharbranth itself (or, more accurately, the ancient city that once stood there).

I noticed that a while back, but without this location connection that belzedar pointed out, I figured that whether the chart referred to cultivation or Odium would be some key hint about the Diagram because of the symbol. That discussion didn't really go too far, but I'm glad I'm not the only on who noticed this

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Snow day for me. I'm supposed to be working from home... but I'm really tempted to bring myself up to speed on glyphs, print out large versions of the back endsheet glyphs, and go to town. If I could get some help with some basics:

How do we reconcile a letter-based glyph system (the way we're interpreting all of these at the moment) with what we're seeing in the books of glyphs like Khokh or Linil, where they don't correspond to a single letter, but rather a whole syllable, and carry a meaning of their own (like Shash, which means dangerous)? Are glyphs and glyphpairs separate writing systems entirely? (I'm looking at one Kholin glyph, and I can see the "K," but I don't see the L or the N glyphs proposed on the guide on page 1. And then there's another Kholin glyph, which I can see some resemblance even though it's not symmetrical, but the letters appear to be in a different order, and there are four instead of three. But those doesn't look anything like the khokh and linil glyphpair on Dalinar's crest, although they are very stylized.)

Also, as I peruse the coppermind, I see there are ten fundamental glyphs. Has anyone tried to identify what they are? I see the women's script has five groupings of letters (vowels, labial [P family], uvular [K family], dental [T family], and alveolar ), with five letters per group (unvoiced stop [P], voiced stop , nasal [M], unvoiced fricative [F], and voiced fricative [V]), with some being more consistent than others. Five by give gives us all Alethi letters, if each letter is defined by a combination of two fundamental glyphs. Or do we have a different idea for what fundamental glyphs are, or if they even apply to letter-glyphs or only for symbol-glyphs?

EDIT: Oh no, I used brackets and broke everything. I was trying to type that the alveolar was the S family, and I did it very wrongly, and now it all looks like this. Please ignore the ongoing strikethrough.

Edited by Pagerunner
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