[OB] The Unmade are Heralds

[Bort]

I've had a thought for a while now that the Heralds are in some way connected to the Unmade, but now I've thought it out a bit more, I think I've put it together.

Ten Heralds formed the Oathpact, where the Voidbringers could only return once one of them cracked and broke their oath. We have Word of Stormfather that nine of them broke.

I think that, when Odium broke each of the Heralds, he took something from them, he 'unmade' them, and that made it easier to break them in the future. The essence he took, Investiture, Identity, whatever you want to call it (I'm not really sure what the actual term would be), or maybe, their pain, Odium used to create the Unmade.

Further, I think that the part that was removed is connected to the Unmade's profile. This is why they seem to reflect an aspect of sentience, rather than the whole thing.

My reasoning for this is Dalinar. When he feels the Thrill, he is a completely different being. When the Thrill isn't there and he can't fight, he turned into a wreck. Just like the Herald the Thrill was originally taken from - Jezrien. I think this is hinted at in the flashback where they are drinking together. Not in so many words, but in the similarities between them.

Another one is Nale. He is practically a block of ice, seemingly cut off from any of his emotions, or some of them at least. I think this corresponds with the Unmade, Ashertmarn. I also think this is hinted at by Lift hugging him.

I don't think we know enough about the other Heralds or Unmade to make connections, other than perhaps Ash and Re-Shepir. That is a thought based more on how similar Re-Shepir and Shallan were when they interacted. What would you guys say? Has Ash lost her'curiosity', for want of a better word?

So, what do you guys think of my idea? Go ahead and poke holes

Edit: I just found a WoB that could suggest I'm on the right track here.

rjl

If Red investiture = co-opted by another Shard, what about the Thrill?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Bort

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

Go ahead and poke holes

There were more than Nine Desolations.

Quote

XS-Terrain [PENDING REVIEW]

Is each Herald only broken once for each Desolation, thus making there nine Desolations, or are they broken multiple times?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are more than nine Desolations.

What happens when the same Herald breaks again, hrmm?

[Nathrangking]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

I've had a thought for a while now that the Heralds are in some way connected to the Unmade, but now I've thought it out a bit more, I think I've put it together.

Ten Heralds formed the Oathpact, where the Voidbringers could only return once one of them cracked and broke their oath. We have Word of Stormfather that nine of them broke.

I think that, when Odium broke each of the Heralds, he took something from them, he 'unmade' them, and that made it easier to break them in the future. The essence he took, Investiture, Identity, whatever you want to call it (I'm not really sure what the actual term would be), or maybe, their pain, Odium used to create the Unmade.

Further, I think that the part that was removed is connected to the Unmade's profile. This is why they seem to reflect an aspect of sentience, rather than the whole thing.

My reasoning for this is Dalinar. When he feels the Thrill, he is a completely different being. When the Thrill isn't there and he can't fight, he turned into a wreck. Just like the Herald the Thrill was originally taken from - Jezrien. I think this is hinted at in the flashback where they are drinking together. Not in so many words, but in the similarities between them.

Another one is Nale. He is practically a block of ice, seemingly cut off from any of his emotions, or some of them at least. I think this corresponds with the Unmade, Ashertmarn. I also think this is hinted at by Lift hugging him.

I don't think we know enough about the other Heralds or Unmade to make connections, other than perhaps Ash and Re-Shepir. That is a thought based more on how similar Re-Shepir and Shallan were when they interacted. What would you guys say? Has Ash lost her'curiosity', for want of a better word?

So, what do you guys think of my idea? Go ahead and poke holes

Edit: I just found a WoB that could suggest I'm on the right track here.

 

 

Another issue is that not all of the unmade are sentient at all. Nergaoul and Ashertmarn are primal in nature whereas Sja- anat is clearly a being of significant sentience. If in fact the unmade were constructs formed of something that was taken from the heralds when they broke why is it that there is a significant difference between the awareness levels of these creatures. Even if they are stolen attributes what is the rhyme or reason behind some being fully aware and others being completely unaware?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

26 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

What happens when the same Herald breaks again, hrmm?

This thought combined with the question:

15 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Another issue is that not all of the unmade are sentient at all. Nergaoul and Ashertmarn are primal in nature whereas Sja- anat is clearly a being of significant sentience. If in fact the unmade were constructs formed of something that was taken from the heralds when they broke why is it that there is a significant difference between the awareness levels of these creatures. Even if they are stolen attributes what is the rhyme or reason behind some being fully aware and others being completely unaware?

Could this be the origin of the hyphen in the names of the more aware Unmade?

Bo-Ado-Mishram might have a large chunk of the current God King of Tukars mind if this is the case. Interesting...

[Subvisual Haze]

The Heralds seem to have much more in common with The Fused (and possibly The Returned from Warbreaker and a certain Survivor).  I think they're mortals whose bodies have previously been destroyed, but their minds/shadows haven't went beyond due to a god preserving them with investiture.  We've seen how the Fused acquire new physical bodies to be reborn (willing sacrifices), I would be curious how the Heralds do so though.  I'm pretty sure its the same general concept though.

[Steeldancer]

I will note I had this theory a while back, but I now find it unlikely. It is the fused that torture the heralds into breaking their oaths, nothing more. 

Furthermore, the unmade are just... weird. If they were related to the heralds, I would expect some analogs of surges. But the unmade just... well they're odd. I don't think it's likely. 

[Rainier]

20 hours ago, Bort said:

Has Ash lost her'curiosity', for want of a better word?

Not curiosity, creativity. She hates the artistic depictions of her specifically because they depict her as artistic, which she views as a sham and a lie. If her artistry and creativity was taken from her, I could understand how it could have wrought the effects we see in her compulsions.

59 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The Heralds seem to have much more in common with The Fused (and possibly The Returned from Warbreaker and a certain Survivor).  I think they're mortals whose bodies have previously been destroyed, but their minds/shadows haven't went beyond due to a god preserving them with investiture.

Yes, they're all cognitive shadows, whatever the hell that means. Your description is as good as any I've seen, but Returned, Fused, and Heralds are of a kind and you've got that right. I'm not as willing to discount this theory as we don't know exactly what happened to the Heralds, how the Oathpact came about, what it entails, or the nature of the Unmade.

[RShara]

We don't fully know what Cognitive Shadows are, but Mistborn: SH gives a lot of info.  Basically, since we exist on 3 Realms, when we die, our Physical returns to the ground, our Spriitual...unknown (but we know that the spiritweb exists and that it takes time to 'decompose")?, and our Cognitive, aka our consciousness, enters the Cognitive Realm.  Normally, that consciousness, or self, then moves Beyond the three Realms, to whatever afterlife may be waiting.

However, with enough investiture, either a fresh infusion, or from past actions, your mind can persist for an amount of time (depending on the amount of investiture).

And there are also ways of regaining your body.  Or a body.

Returned are Cognitive Shadows stapled back into their bodies with a giant Divine Breath.

Fused are Cognitive Shadows stapled back into a Singer body with Odium's investiture.

Heralds are Cognitive Shadows stapled back into...a body? their body? a body created for them?...with Honor's investiture.

 

Does that help at all?

 

At any rate, given that the Heralds are suffused with Honor's investiture, and the ones we see don't have any signs of red (signalling that some of their investiture has been co-opted or corrupted), I don't think Odium would have been able to steal part of their minds to create Unmade. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by RShara

[Subvisual Haze]

39 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Yes, they're all cognitive shadows, whatever the hell that means. Your description is as good as any I've seen, but Returned, Fused, and Heralds are of a kind and you've got that right. I'm not as willing to discount this theory as we don't know exactly what happened to the Heralds, how the Oathpact came about, what it entails, or the nature of the Unmade.

We haven't had it fully explained yet, but it seems to mean creatures that live mostly in the cognitive realm.  Some are "ghosts" of dead humans that were preserved by a God's power (otherwise they quickly pass away into the afterlife). 

Others are splinters of a God's power, which when left alone long enough have developed a level of sentience.  These splinters can either be created voluntarily by a shard, or they can be broken off involuntarily.  Examples of these are spren and seons.  I think the Unmade are a special example of this.  I think they're extra large splinters of Odium's power.  The sentient ones like Sja-Anat are probably the older Unmade, while the non-sentient ones like Neragoul were probably more recent creations.

The first are a mind that is preserved by God's power (investiture).  The second is a chunk of investiture that has developed a mind.  There are probably other variations beyond those.

[RShara]

4 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

We haven't had it fully explained yet, but it seems to mean creatures that live mostly in the cognitive realm.  Some are "ghosts" of dead humans that were preserved by a God's power (otherwise they quickly pass away into the afterlife). 

Others are splinters of a God's power, which when left alone long enough have developed a level of sentience.  These splinters can either be created voluntarily by a shard, or they can be broken off involuntarily.  Examples of these are spren and seons.  I think the Unmade are a special example of this.  I think they're extra large splinters of Odium's power.  The sentient ones like Sja-Anat are probably the older Unmade, while the non-sentient ones like Neragoul were probably more recent creations.

The first are a mind that is preserved by God's power (investiture).  The second is a chunk of investiture that has developed a mind.  There are probably other variations beyond those.

I like to call a distinction between Cognitive Shadows (a sapient being that has died and its consciousness has remained behind due to investiture), and spren/Splinters (bits of investiture that have gained sapience).  They're both investiture in the end, but having once been a being with strong ties to all 3 Realms makes a difference.  For instance, CS can go Beyond, if they want.  It doesn't appear like spren can.

Edited January 12, 2018 by RShara

[Subvisual Haze]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

I like to call a distinction between Cognitive Shadows (a sapient being that has died and its consciousness has remained behind due to investiture), and spren/Splinters (bits of investiture that have gained sapience).  They're both investiture in the end, but having once been a being with strong ties to all 3 Realms makes a difference.  For instance, CS can go Beyond, if they want.  It doesn't appear like spren can.

Oh God, don't even imply that.  Kaladin's ghost will never pass beyond if he can't take Syl with him.

[King Cole]

19 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

What happens when the same Herald breaks again, hrmm?

What if this is an indicator of how intelligent each unmade is. Like the more they break, the more that is taken. And the more that is taken, the smarter they are

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Oh God, don't even imply that.  Kaladin's ghost will never pass beyond if he can't take Syl with him.

Why would he want Syl to die instead of living on and bonding another person?

[Subvisual Haze]

Just now, RShara said:

Why would he want Syl to die instead of living on and bonding another person?

No, he'll just desperately and morosely cling to the cognitive realm until a shard takes pity on him so he doesn't have to leave Syl.  You thought Kelsier obstinately resisted the pull of the afterlife?  Kaladin without his angel-pixie dream girl would put that to shame.

Stormlight Archive X: All Dogs  Spren Go To Heaven.

[RShara]

He'll have to learn to be a lot more persuasive

[Rainier]

I'd like to double-back to the idea that each Herald is associated with one of the Unmade. Let's start.

Taln is exempt. He is the greatest and never broken. Odium has no hold on him and he is unrelated to the Unmade.

Ishar, as patron of Bondsmiths and creator of the Oathpact, is connected to Ba-Ado-Mishram. Like Dalinar refilled the gemstones with stormlight so does BAM provide stormlight.

Jezrien, as patron of Windrunners, is associated with Nergaoul and the Thrill. The blubbering mess he's reduced to is similar to what happens when the Thrill recedes.

Nale, as patron and member of Skybreakers, is associated with Ashertmarnn. His lack of emotions are found in the wild and base emotions of The Heart of the Revel.

Chanarach, as patron of Dustrbringers, is associated with Chemoarish because it's called the Dustmother. I've got nothing else.

Vedel, as patron of Edgedancers, is associated with Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. As Vedel was known for the essence of Light, so is Re-Shephir made of blackness.

Pailiah, as patron of Truthwatchers, has to be connected to Moelach. Her powers of foresight are corrupted and distributed as the soul splits in three.

Shalash, as patron of Lightweavers, is associated with Sja-anat, Taker of Secrets. Where do you think those secrets Lightweavers tell go? They get taken in by Sja-anat.

Battar, as patron of Elsecallers, is associated with Dai-gonarthis, mysterious and mythical. 

Kalak, as patron of the Willshapers, is associated with Yelig-nar who engages his host in a battle of wills over who will control the vessel and the power of the Unmade.

 

Reading back through, there are some stronger connections (Kalak/Yelig-nar, Pailiah/Moelach) and then there are some stretches (Battar/Daigonarthis, Vedel/Re-Shephir). I'm reasonably pleased how well they line up, but I recognize how much reaching I had to do to get here, and must admit that with as little that we know of the Unmade all of this could be nonsense.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Rainier

[Weltall]

Aside from various inconsistencies between the Heralds and the Unmade, there's the color issue. With the exception of Nergaoul, every Unmade we've seen is associated with black. Re-Shephir is a black blob, Sja-anat is a humanoid black shadow, Ashtermarn looks like a black heart and Yelig-nar is a black cloud... except that while possessing people he seems to have a thing for purple given that the crystals growing out of the ones he possesses are all described as amethyst. There's also Dai-gonarthis who may be associated with black as well, given the nickname Black Fisher.

Since all the Heralds gained their Cognitive Shadow nature from Honor's Investiture permeating them, if all of the Unmade were somehow created from the broken Heralds, they should all be red because of Odium corrupting a part of Honor's Investiture, not just one of them. As interesting as the numeric relationship is, I think it has less to do with anything Odium did directly and more a coincidence that resulted from Honor and Odium being associated with numbers so close to one another.

[Willshaping Crasher]

I'm not fully sold on this theory, but depending on how you read Chapter 88:

Quote

"Madness" Ahu said, then giggled, "I use to think it wasn't my fault. But you know, we can't escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them.  It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price.  They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched."

Hard to tell whether this applies specifically to the unmade or to something else however, he was just discussing the unmade in the previous passage.

[The Thinking Herald]

This is mainly in response to The One Who Connect's reply about there being more than nine desolations, and could solve the mysteries about sapience, etc....

What I'll posit here is that there were more than nine desolations, and this is directly related to the multiple sections of each unmade's name and their sentience. It is known that:

1. There were more than 9 desolations.

2. There are 9 unmade.

3. There are 10 heralds that were tortured in the interim between each desolation.

OP posits that:

1. Each breaking corresponded to a new unmade ( there's a slight problem with this, due to point 1 in the above section)

2. Each unmade corresponds to one herald, except for Taln, but that's because Taln is the man and never broke until now (Which raises the idea that there should be a new unmade now, but I'll get to that)

This theory, while not currently backed up with too much solid evidence, could still work. What I'll suggest is that each new breaking of a previously broken herald gave the corresponding unmade a new "piece" of them, adding to their sentience level and the number of name-sections of that unmade (Under this logic, Ishar was the weakest-minded of the heralds and broke thrice, hence the unmade "Ba-Ado-Mishram" corresponding to him.)

We can use this to calculate what is possibly the actual number of desolations that there were. Using the herald-unmade connections provided by Rainier (His reasons for these connections being provided in his reply):

Ishar corresponds to Ba-Ado-Mishram. He was the weakest and broke thrice, instigating three desolations and giving an unmade a level 3 sentience.

Vedel corresponds to Re-Shephir. She broke twice, started two desolations and gave Odium two units of sentience to make a level 2 unmade.

Shalash corresponds to Sja-anat. Broke twice, kickstarted two apocalypses, creating a level 2 sentient unmade.

Battar corresponds to Dai-gonarthis (Or an unknown unmade, but we're just going with it).  Broke 2 times, started two desolations, gave away 2 units of sentience.

Kalak corresponds to Yelig-nar. A "willshaper"'s will broke twice and he made a level two unmade, starting two desolations.

Jezrien corresponds to Nergaoul. Credit where credit is due, the Herald King broke only once, giving an unmade a level 1 sentience and starting only one desolation.

Nale corresponds to Ashertmarnn. THE LAW broke once, starting one desolation, and giving a level 1 sentience to an unmade.

Chanarach corresponds to Chemoarish. One breaking, one desolation, and a level 1 sentience unmade.

Pailiah corresponds to Moelach. Again, one breaking, one desolation, and a new level 1 unmade for Odium to play with.SThe

Last, but by no means least, Taln the Man. He broke only after 4500 years of torture, and under my theory, created a new mystery unmade (Which I like to think is the Everstorm itself)

According to the statistics provided, there would have been 15 desolations, excluding the Final Desolation.

TL;DR: I'm doing whatever I can to save this theory and coming up with unconfirmed statistics. Feel free to tear my reply to shreds.

Edited January 14, 2018 by The Thinking Herald

[Patrick Star]

For this theory, there being more than 9 desolations isn't necessarily relevant.  Instead of thinking of it as each desolation creating an unmade, we can think of it as each desolation either creating a new unmade, or adding to an unmade's sentience if an unmade from the herald who broke has already been created, like @The Thinking Herald points out above.

There's also this WoB here that says there were "much fewer" than 99 desolations, so 15 desolations would certainly fall within that range.

I think trying to get a more specific value for how many many desolations there were would be a good way to prove or disprove this theory.  At the moment, I like it a lot.

[Bort]

6 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

OP posits that:

1. Each breaking corresponded to a new unmade ( there's a slight problem with this, due to point 1 in the above section)

2. Each unmade corresponds to one herald, except for Taln, but that's because Taln is the man and never broke until now (Which raises the idea that there should be a new unmade now, but I'll get to that)

I like what you guys are doing with my theory, but would just point out that I never said each breaking created a new Unmade, only that they were created when a Herald broke, using part of their, spirit, soul, or something. If nine Heralds broke, that's nine Unmade, however many times they actually broke.

I do like the idea of how many times they broke determines how sapient the corresponding Unmade becomes. I'll admit I was at a struggle to explain that bit. Best I could come up with was, 'Well, depends on what was removed,' which may or may not still be relevant.

I can see two questions that should answer us:

1. How many Desolations happened before the Oathpact? I'm going to guess at the answer being 'not too many.' Humans come to Roshar, start the first Desolation. Next is the Listeners' Revenge. I think it is likely to be this second one that forms the Oathpact.

2. Have there been fewer than 20 Desolations? Maybe with some caveats to this, like 'excluding the current one.'

Odium did seem very enthusiastic about taking peoples' guilt and pain in Oathbringer. What if this is something like that? Using Jezrien/Thrill as an example. Odium has the Heralds on Braize and does horrible, obscene things to them, like using their fingers to pick his nose. While doing all of this, he is whispering in Jezrien's ear, and showing him visions of all the people he failed to save, all the horrors he witnessed, innocents dead because he wasn't fast enough. (Side note, just think what this would do to Kaladin?). Then he puts Jezrien on a battle field, and forces him to fight on, and on, yet always not quite fast or good enough. And there sits Odium in the background, harvesting all of Jezrien's pain, anguish, torment, rage, and hate.

Edit:

Meant to add, if this is right, and Odium is harvesting all of this stuff from the Heralds during torture, then  Taln's Unmade may only have one part to it's name, but it'll have 4,500 years of pain and suffering powering it.

Edit 2: @The Thinking Herald  Hadn't spotted this was your first post. Welcome to the Shard

Edited January 14, 2018 by Bort

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

1. How many Desolations happened before the Oathpact? I'm going to guess at the answer being 'not too many.' Humans come to Roshar, start the first Desolation. Next is the Listeners' Revenge. I think it is likely to be this second one that forms the Oathpact.

The first real Desolation, according to the Stormfather, was when Odium created the Fused. The Oathpact in response was to bind them.

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The first real Desolation, according to the Stormfather, was when Odium created the Fused. The Oathpact in response was to bind them.

So, assuming the Stormfather is correct,the Oathpact was probably the end of the second Desolation. Then fifteen more for the Heralds to break, and now the latest one. 18 Desolations. We should be able to get that confirmed.

[Sira]

I really like this theory. Oathbringer is a book of many parallels (e.g. Dalinar vs Amaram or Kaladin vs Moash) and at the end of OB we could have another parallel that might support this theory. Quite similar things happen here, first Dalinar captures The Thrill with the King's Drop, then Moash kills (or captures?) Jezrien with his gemstone knife. So it does make sense that Jezrien corresponds to Nergaoul. So many parallels...

Furthermore, when Jezrien broke and his Unmade, Nergaoul, was made it took away what Jezrien stands for (protection) and twisted it around to create The Thrill that made men kill each other which is the furthest thing away from protecting. 

8 hours ago, The Thinking Herald said:

According to the statistics provided, there would have been 15 desolations, excluding the Final Desolation.

I like this calcutlation a lot and it makes a lot of sense to me. 15 desolations sounds about right considering that the Final Desolation would be the 16th desolation and we all know that the number 16 is special...

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

So, assuming the Stormfather is correct,the Oathpact was probably the end of the second Desolation. Then fifteen more for the Heralds to break, and now the latest one. 18 Desolations. We should be able to get that confirmed.

I consider the Oathpact to have been formed during the first Desolation, and what was before was just a large-scale war between two groups. Either way, that could work. I don't support this theory though. I think the Unmade were just made directly from Odium's power, at the start.