AC12 Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) So I have been pondering about the Heralds lately: where they are at, what's going on with their Blade, and how their various states of crazy are manifesting. I have complied a list of what I could come up with. Please fill in gaps, offer any corrections (I'm sure I probably missed something), and most importantly, let fly with all of your wild speculations. 1. Jezrien-Well apparently he and Dalinar drank themselves into oblivion together once upon a time, but it seems he is dead, and not just back in Damnation until the next Desolation dead but dead dead. Moash (Vyre, whatever, that one guy we all hate) killed him with that weird knife and now Moash also carries Jezrien's Blade. 2. Nalan-Decided to go all in with the Voidbringers because he likes justice and stuff. Got his Blade back from the Shin somehow. 3. Shalash-Likes to deface art (pun intended), last seen hanging out with Taln outside of Thaylen City. Blade presumably with the Shin. 4. Talenel- With Shalash. Obviously he is a stud for withstanding torture for 4500 years and allowing mankind to advance without Voidbringers messing stuff up. Is understandably a tad loopy but might have started coming out of it a bit at the end. Maybe? Who knows? Also his Blade has gone AWOL. Nobody knows where that went but someone should probably track down that all-powerful piece of Honor himself before it ends up with the bad guys. If it hasn't already. 5. Battar-Apparently she is hanging out in Karbranth and everyone's favorite King of Variable Intelligence knows it and use it somehow. Wasn't super clear on this one. Blade still with the Shin. 6. Ishar- Crazy emperor dude, wants to take over everything. Blade with the Shin as far as we know. 7. Kelek- Showed up randomly in Kohlinar the night when everything went down and had a chat with Nale. Jasnah saw them. The Shin got his Blade. 8-10. I have no clue on Paliah, Vedel, or Chanarach. The Shin have all their Blades, which means that this group we know little about has a whole lot of power and access to all the Surges except Gravitation by my reckoning. So that is what I came up with, lets here what you have to say. Edited January 11, 2018 by AC12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnmish Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Taln's blade was almost definitely switched out for another blade by Hoid during their trip from Kholinar to thr Shattered Plains. Where it is is anyones guess but I would say it's very unlikely that the forces of Odium will be able to get to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnmish Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 I also believe it is Paliah at the Palaeneum and Ishar is confirmed as Tezim the God-priest of the Emul. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Gnmish said: I also believe it is Paliah at the Palaeneum and Ishar is confirmed as Tezim the God-priest of the Emul. He is actually the Tukari God-Priest. Emul has some other kind of leader. You are correct about Paliah though. The most popular Chana theory is that she is Liss, the assassin in the WoR prologue. As for Vedel... I don't think there are any major theories about her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnmish Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said: He is actually the Tukari God-Priest. Emul has some other kind of leader. You are correct about Paliah though. The most popular Chana theory is that she is Liss, the assassin in the WoR prologue. As for Vedel... I don't think there are any major theories about her. Thanks for the correction. All of these pagan western kingdoms and religions get confusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 8 hours ago, AC12 said: 2. Nalan-Decided to go all in with the Voidbringers because he likes justice and stuff. Got his Blade back from the Shin somehow. Is he really siding with the Voidbringers though? The Singers yes but not sure I would say he is siding with the Voidbringers/Odium. He and his Skybreakers did not join either side in the Thaylen battle. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storms! Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Gnmish said: Taln's blade was almost definitely switched out for another blade by Hoid during their trip from Kholinar to thr Shattered Plains. Where it is is anyones guess but I would say it's very unlikely that the forces of Odium will be able to get to it. I thought I saw a WoB somewhere that said Hoid definitely did not take it. Could be anywhere 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubbdrubb Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5773 5 minutes ago, Storms! said: I thought I saw a WoB somewhere that said Hoid definitely did not take it. Could be anywhere Quote Questioner Which means somebody else has the sword, correct? Brandon Sanderson The sword was switched out! Questioner Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but... Brandon Sanderson Wit does not have the sword. Questioner No!? Brandon Sanderson But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now. Edited January 11, 2018 by Glubbdrubb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Does Nalan have his blade from the Shin, or his actual spren-blade? Because we know he is a member of the order and should have his own spren/blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazenella Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Bliev said: Does Nalan have his blade from the Shin, or his actual spren-blade? Because we know he is a member of the order and should have his own spren/blade? He has both 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC12 Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 hours ago, StormingTexan said: Is he really siding with the Voidbringers though? The Singers yes but not sure I would say he is siding with the Voidbringers/Odium. He and his Skybreakers did not join either side in the Thaylen battle. Great point, I suppose that distinction is pretty significant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnmish Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Storms! said: I thought I saw a WoB somewhere that said Hoid definitely did not take it. Could be anywhere Wit not having the Blade is not the same as Wit didn't take it. As @Glubbdrubb's WoB states, he doesn't have the sword *now*. Considering he was there when Taln arrived carrying the Blade and knew of it's significance, I would be very surprised if he didn't take precautions to prevent Odium's forces getting it by hiding it. Edited January 12, 2018 by Gnmish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Gnmish said: Wit not having the Blade is not the same as Wit didn't take it. As @Glubbdrubb's@Glubbdrubb's WoB states, he doesn't have the sword *now*. Considering he was there when Taln arrived carrying the Blade and knew of it's significance, I would be very surprised if he didn't take precautions to prevent Odium's forces getting it by hiding it. Wit didn't switch the Blades either. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e6885 Quote Questioner At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Shouldn't that particular Blade have been safe? Brandon Sanderson No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened. [...] [This is] a question that the subtle reader should be asking. And there are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is. Questioner Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that. Brandon Sanderson There is no evidence of that. In fact there's much stronger evidence that something else is going on. Questioner 2 Did Hoid switch out the blades? Brandon Sanderson Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnmish Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 Just now, RShara said: Wit didn't switch the Blades either. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e6885 Thanks RShara. I hadn't seen that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Gnmish said: Thanks RShara. I hadn't seen that one. Yeah it killed my exact same theory, which is why I know of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoidsRock Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) Wow @AC12, two days ago I started writing a long post about the Heralds but have been caught up with other things and so have not checked the board. When I got here, I saw this. In other words you scooped me . So I will edit mine and just put in a few comments of the Heralds I have the most interest or questions about. Jezrien Having encountered Abu's page time in OB, I more appreciate Nale's snide comment in the Lift Interlude of WOK Quote “Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 706). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Taln Is Taln really Taln? The only odd thing about the identification of Taln, is BWS’ caginess referring to the him as, “the person calling himself Taln.” Contra this, we have the WOB confirming we have seen Taln (and others): Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] The amount of Heralds that we have seen so far. Two? I had thought Wit was one. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Wit is not one, but you've seen Ash, you've seen Taln, you've seen Jezrien and Kalak in the prelude, you've seen Nale. Yeah, he was chasing Lift, among other things. You've heard of several others, but the others are going to start getting more and more obscure from there. I don't think there's any others. Furthermore, Taln is identified by Ash, Mraize, and the Stormfather (below): Quote Dalinar leaped to his feet. “It’s him!” he shouted. “The madman. He really is a Herald!” HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 408). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So yes, I think Taln is Taln. Ishar Ishar has been identified as Tezim by the Stormfather. He is also gives this psychological analysis of Tezim: Quote He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man…He is insane. Do not look for meaning in his actions. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 638). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. This is actually the only identification of Ishar = Tezim. Two other characters refer to Ishar without the explicit Tezim id. Ash, upon seeing Taln: Quote Talenel’Elin had broken like the rest of them. Ishar, she thought. Ishar will know what to do. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1210). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Nale to Szeth: Quote We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1197). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So is Tezim really Ishar, since the fellow Heralds would disagree with the Stormfather’s analysis? Luckily we have an on-point WOB to settle this: Quote CCQ I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information? Brandon Sanderson All the Heralds are insane. CCQ Okay. Brandon Sanderson It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever. CCQ Okay. Brandon Sanderson Nale trusts Ishar too much. Battar According to Tarangvian: Quote “There’s a woman at Kharbranth,” he said. “She goes by the name Dova, but we think she is Battah’Elin. A Herald. She told us the Desolation was approaching.” Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1205). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Can we trust him? Not completely as this conflicts with what Tarangvian’s POV gives for both the motivation to seek out the Nightwatcher which in turn led to the Diagram: Quote Just as the Diagram instructed, [Taravangian] had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive. That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 920). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Dova does not show up until after the diagram: Quote “Tell Dova to continue the work,” he said. He had not anticipated that their covenant would attract the loyalty of an ardent, of all things. The Diagram, and its members, knew no boundaries. Dova had discovered their work on her own, and they’d needed to either induct her or assassinate her. Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 906). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So is Dova really Battah? My guess is yes and Tarangvian misrepresenting his source of information allows him to avoid discussing the Diagram. That said, unless there are some WOBs that I don't know about, Tarangvian is at least partially an unreliable narrator. Kelek Here I have some questions. As mentioned above (and by process of elimination), Kelek is thought to be Nale’s companion the night of Gavilar’s assassination. Quote “She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.” “Shut up.” “I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” The two passed through the intersection ahead of Jasnah. They were ambassadors from the West, including the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it a scar? The shorter of the two men— he could have been Alethi— cut off when he noticed Jasnah. Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 26). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Here, the "creature" seems to be Szeth and the blade seems to be Jezrien’s honorblade. The only nagging problem I have with this is the phrase “my lord.” Granted Jezrien is the Herald of Kings but since Kelek is speaking to fellow Herald Nale, why not say “our lord.” I may be reading too much into it. The one alternative theory I have heard bandied about is that Kaladin encountered Kelek on a bridge run: Quote Kaladin walked up to him. He had dark brown skin and brown eyes, his thick black hair pulled back into a long, braided tail. Painspren crawled around him. He looked up as Kaladin and the members of Bridge Four loomed over him… “Hold this with your hands,” Kaladin instructed. “And don’t walk on it. I’ll check on you before we march back to camp.” “How …” the man said. He didn’t have even a hint of an accent. Kaladin had expected him to be Azish because of the dark skin. “How will I get back if I can’t walk on the leg?” Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 745-6). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Based on the physical descriptions, these are not the same people. So which is Kelek? If I had to guess, would go with the first. All I got. Edited January 12, 2018 by HoidsRock Forgot to give citation on last quote 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 Thanks for putting this together @AC12 this is really helpful. I wonder if the Herald can sense each other's blades? It would explain how Kelek knew what Szeth possessed, without having seen it at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC12 Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 Wow well done @HoidsRock, much more in depth than what I had thanks for the insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoidsRock Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 1 hour ago, AC12 said: Wow well done @HoidsRock, much more in depth than what I had thanks for the insight. Thanks, and all kidding aside, I appreciate you putting the topic up. BWS has made clear that the Heralds will continue to move beyond cameos in future (the most obvious being Ash and Taln getting their own books), so keeping scorecards of what we know so far, helps me tremendously. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, HoidsRock said: Brandon Sanderson It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever. So when Nale says he thinks he's getting worse, and that he doesn't trust his own judgement, we should not trust this... Or maybe I'm being too literal. Any time a Herald is talking about the deterioration of their own mental state and how it scares them, I trust that. But anything they say about how the world works, and what people should be doing that I distrust. Edited January 12, 2018 by Stark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Stark said: So when Nale says he thinks he's getting worse, and that he doesn't trust his own judgement, we should not trust this... Or maybe I'm being to literal The Heralds are lairs and cannot be trusted. What they are saying is simply not true. Do not believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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