Theory about the nature of the Cognitive Realm

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

This theory is really a reaction to 3 things, @WeiryWriter's thread on The Expanse of Densities, a couple of WoBs, and the extended view of the Rosharan sub-astral we got in Oathbringer.

I think the Cognitive Realm is a contiguous topology, like the model for gravitation's effect on space time. It's a large continuous surface that is elastic and is stretched by densities of thought. To put this in terms of the analogy of the warping of space time through gravitation, thought would be like mass; a dense accumulation of thought in one area would warp the topological plane, but unlike with space time, this warping wouldn't manifest as a dimpling of the surface of the cognitive realm, because it really is a two dimensional construct, instead the elasticity of the system would spread outwards, like a balloon being pulled on both ends stretches in reaction to the force. The exact shape and nature of the Cognitive Realm in relation to the Physical Realm I think is best left to the Scholars at Silverlight to determine, until we get the 3 Dimensional map of the Cosmere that Brandon has hinted that they are making, but there are a number of topologies that are surfaces that are fully contiguous, where it would be possible to circumnavigate the surface of the topology in a near infinite varieties of ways. One example of an interesting topology is the Klein Bottle (which can be non-intersecting with a time component, spoilered below because the animation can be distracting unless you want to look at it).

Spoiler

The thing is that is compelling about this formulation is that it allows for the Cognitive Realm to change and adapt over time, depending on where cognitive densities occur, like this animation of a Coffee Cup transforming into Torus (spoilered too, because it's animated):

Spoiler

So the Cognitive Realm, as I see it, is a modified plane, a plane that is in continuous transition to form a changing 3 dimensional surface. And the Spiritual Realm is a single point, the single Point of Pythagorean thought where all infinity is encompassed. Everything is connected to this point, but this point exists outside of time and space, it is a one-dimensional construct (the Great I-Am of the Cosmos). Certain points are more connected to this singular point, and because everything is connected to it as well, sentient beings can use these points of high thought density to access the point outside of time and space, and through cognitive will, reach another point in time and space (most likely this transition occurs from the Physical Realm with an intermediary stop in the CR before the being is transported to the Spiritual Realm, and process repeats in reverse (to CR then to PR).

So here are the WoB's that I think support this general idea:
First this WoB, which implies that the Cognive Realm is like a flattened version of the Physical Realm (emphasis added):

Spoiler

Questioner 1

You said that moving people like that [Cognitive Shadows] or spren off-world, from Roshar is difficult.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner 1

What about physically, say the Ones Above visit them, and they fly away?

Brandon Sanderson

So one of the things you'll have to be asking questions and theorizing on is what happens if you try to carry a spren around the planet. What happens to their Cognitive sense, right? So you're on Roshar, right? So on the Physical Realm what would happen-- Because on Shadesmar, you have a flattened version. So there are questions for you to be theorizing implicit in that.  And one of them is, what happens, you cross a threshold circling the globe, your spren, what happens to them? Because-- Okay? This relates to the question you’re asking.

Questioner 2

Wait wait, you have a three dimensional plain coexisting with a two dimensional plain?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, two dimensional is the wrong term, but basically...

Questioner 3

Can you specify the mathematically projection used to create this? *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

We'll try to give it to you eventually, but this is the sort of stuff that I do that Peter's like "Oh man..." *laughter* "Alright give me the math Peter." "Ahhh what do you mean? I'm not a mathematician." "Eh, y'know. You're close." It is very convenient to have a physicist and a mathematician in my writing group.

And this WoB, which I think gives the best idea of what the Cognitive Realm actually is (emphasis added):

Spoiler

Questioner

So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. 

Brandon Sanderson

Mhm

Questioner

So when Kelsier...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. 

Questioner

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner

Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yep.

Questioner

Okay, just edging it there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner

That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson

It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.

Questioner

Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

...in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yeah.

Questioner

So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner

So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson

It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

Questioner

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner

That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

Here are the rest of the supporting details (spoilered so you can read them if you want to):

Spoiler

@WeiryWriter's post was the tipping point, I have been thinking about this since I first read TWoK and Shallan takes her first trip into Shadesmar, but I decided to write this up after reading that awesome thread.

The thing that made me think of the Cognitive Realm being a topology was how water manifests in the CR. We have seen two sub-astrals, the Scadrian and Rosharan, in both, water manifests as black obsidian projecting upwards with its height approximately corresponding to its depth in the physical realm. This to me seems like an inverted topology, and fits with the black sky, what is light in the PR is dark in the cognitive realm. What is deep in the PR corresponds to what is tall in the CR. The thing that is interesting about this presentation of water is that it's a representation of sapient life's view of water, it's primary aspect as the thinking, reasoning beings on the Physical Realm view it (namely impenetrable depth) is translated in the CR to insurmountable height.

So then (from WW's thread), the fact that travel between sub-astrals is merely a matter of picking a direction on this nothingness of thought and walking until you reach another sub-astral combined with the 2nd WoB about how space devoid of thought is contracted in the CR, led me to the thought that this is an elastic system. Thought effectively stretches the surface of the CR and there is a correspondence between the density of thought and the size of a sub-astral.

Here are some general thoughts about why the Cognitive Realms manifest in such different ways on different Shard worlds (spoilered again, read if you want):

Spoiler

I think that how sapient life primarily interacts with the Investiture of a given Shardworld dictates how that given Shardworld's sub-astral presents. We saw in MB:SH that everything was composed of translucent mist, Kelsier was able to will himself to walk through the misty walls. Preservation heavily invested himself in the mists to help humans out, this was the major Physical Realm manifestation of Investiture. Because the sapient life primarily interacted with this form of Investiture, the Cognitive Realm mirrors this manifestation but is further altered by collective beliefs in general. Scadrial is a special case, it was created out of whole cloth by Ruin and Preservation, all sapient life was created at the same time that all of the PR of Scadrial was created. From the beginning of life on Scadrial Preservation was manifest in the PR as the Mist, which was essentially his way of touching the world. Because all sapient life experienced this Mist, the Scadrian sub-astral was built of this mist.

On Roshar, things are different. This world existed with sapient life pre-shattering. The primary interaction with Investiture on this planet has always been stormlight, the original inhabitants have hearts made of gems. I think we are 6,000 years in from the Shattering of Adonalsium, so that is plenty of time for the collective ideas of sapient life to have transformed this sub-astral so that it is more in line with how they interact with investiture, but I think the holdover for viewing this subastral is gems (though I do wonder what Shadesmar would have looked like when just the Singers were living there). So how do Rosharan's interact with Investiture on their planet? What is their money, what do they use to light their houses and keeps? They use glass spheres with stormlight infused gems, so this is how their CR presents. I think the further reason for this presentation of Cognitive souls in Shadesmar is that this is like a visualization of Spinoza's monadology. Each thing is represented as a singular entity. It is complete without the possibility of extension or division. Every idea that can be thought about a composite thing is broken apart into a singular bead that represents the soul of a particular idea. Like in Jasnah's interlude when she grabs the bead that is the soul of the idea of the castle, because it exists as a singular whole idea, it has it's own bead, even though it is composed of multiple hallways, rooms, tapestries, chairs etc. Every idea is incarnate as a singular bead. I think this is freaking rad, but the reason every soul of an idea is encapsulated in a glass bead is because that is how the sapient life on Roshar primarily interacts with the manifest Investiture on Roshar.

And Here is the most important part, I am going to be getting some signed copies of Brandon's books for my birthday (coming up in February) and I'll have 3 questions to ask, I already know what I want to ask for the first one, but I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on what I should ask for the second two. I do have to say I want the suggestions restricted to Realmatics (cognitive realm, spiritual realm, linkage between 3 realms, etc). Excited to see what some of the smartest sapient lifeforms on this planet come up with!

Edited January 8, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[insert_anagram_here]

Maybe the mathematical projection gifs scared people away even if your main point is based on the "flattened version" WoB. I think they like their WoBs around here, so I would've started with that first in order to sell it

I admit it's the first time I see that WoB and I didn't necessarily perceive 'flattened' as 2D but that 'the dimensions are differently projected from Physical to Cognitive'. So how my mind would simplify it is that Cognitive location is relevant to the 'height of thought' (processing level) existing in the corresponding location of the Physical Realm. So where nothingness exists in the Physical Realm (emptiness between planets) that location just doesn't exist in the Cognitive or is very very small (amounts to how much existence thinks on it). On the other hand, I would even assume that if you had a supercomputer it would manifest as something huge, or at least 'tall' in the Cognitive Realm. Now I wonder what that 'sun' in the Cognitive Realm is...

Relative robot WoB you might like: 

Quote

VindicationKnight

If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

source

Anyway, on topic now, the idea that Cognitive is 2d and Spiritual is 1d is very interesting (I love simplifications and the reason behind it is a discussion in itself) but I feel that there is something missing, so maybe it's an oversimplification here. Granted there is at least one WoB that says that time doesn't exist in the Spiritual Realm, so that makes it one dimension less than the Cognitive, but we still have (apart from time itself): location which needs at least 2 dimensions, and the 'amount of cognitive thought' ,height, as you've described it in the WeiryWriter inspiration bit. So that's at least 4 dimensions in the Cognitive. That doesn't mean that the Spiritual Realm isn't 1d, you could still project anything to 1d anyway, but it just means that, sadly for simplification purposes, it isn't verified as a fact yet.

Edited January 15, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
typo

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Has anyone asked him how the center of a world's Cognitive reflection is determined? I'm assuming they are disk shaped. I wonder if they are centered on Perpendicularities or if the center is determined by collective thought. For example if a large enough number of people think that a particular city is the "center" of the world, does that make it the center in the CR? If it's based on Perpendicularities, what if there's more than one on a world? Does it take the median of both?

Edited January 15, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Quantus]

28 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Has anyone asked him how the center of a world's Cognitive reflection is determined? I'm assuming they are disk shaped. I wonder if they are centered on Perpendicularities or if the center is determined by collective thought. For example if a large enough number of people think that a particular city is the "center" of the world, does that make it the center in the CR? If it's based on Perpendicularities, what if there's more than one on a world? Does it take the median of both?

It's more or less the aggregate of however the people/culture's present think of it. They'd be disk or sphere shaped based on the overriding ideas of the living populace, not unlike how Spren had Four Genders until Humans took over.  It's not going to be based on the location of the perpendicularities given that those can and do move, and since not every populated world has them.

 

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

 Granted there is at least one WoB that says that time doesn't exist in the Spiritual Realm, so that makes it one dimension less than the Cognitive,

 

Random comment:  Given that your Spiritweb Knows how old you are (which is why stopping longterm Atium Compounding causes your body to rapidly age to "catch up") I think the Spirit Realm has one Dimension More, not Less: I'd call it a 4D space.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's more or less the aggregate of however the people/culture's present think of it. They'd be disk or sphere shaped based on the overriding ideas of the living populace, not unlike how Spren had Four Genders until Humans took over.  It's not going to be based on the location of the perpendicularities given that those can and do move, and since not every populated world has them.

How would you walk off the edge of a sphere into another worlds CR?

[Quantus]

12 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

How would you walk off the edge of a sphere into another worlds CR?

With great difficulty.  Fortunately I think it would take an odd convergence of Technological advancement and Realmic Ignorance for a culture to reach the point where the Spherical Shape model overrode the far more intuitive Flat-Plane shape before they managed to get into the Cognitive Realm and lock in their impression of the CR directly as a flat plane. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

It would really only require colonization by a civilization that had discovered that planets are round. Also the WoB in OPs post explicitly says that the CR is flat.

I just realized that I’m now on the wrong side of a flat earth debate. Feels bad.

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It would really only require colonization by a civilization that had discovered that planets are round. Also the WoB in OPs post explicitly says that the CR is flat.

I think Quantus' argument still stands though.  You'd need a weird set of events to get a group of people who aren't aware of the cognitive realm to colonize a planet. Think about it.  The only reason that knowledge of shadesmar is esoteric is because long distance communication isn't developed on most shard worlds and a lot of world hoppers, like members of the 17th shard and Silverlight scholars, aren't interested in spreading knowledge about the cognitive realm.  Once you have telephones/telegraphs, or in Roshar's case Spanreeds, it only takes a few people until the entire world is aware of the existence of another realm.  How long do you think it'll take for Roshar to become predominantly aware of realmatics now that world leaders like Dalinar and Co. know about it?  Obviously its not really a high priority since they're in the middle of a war, but assuming Roshar survives, scholars who are closely associated with the knights radiant will know what the cognitive realm is, and they'll want to discuss it with the peers.  So over a course of a few generations, this knowledge will disseminate.  For shardworlds without easy access to the cognitive realm like on Roshar (with Transportation), complete exploration of the world is only a matter of time once flight is developed, and then the shard pool will be discovered, and the same scenario occurs as described above.  Also, the WoB you mentioned does state the the cognitive realm is flat, but this doesn't eliminate the possibility that it could hypothetically be spherical.  It just means that in every case it happens to be flat because the alternative is so improbable.  

Also, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine, you should definitely ask questions about the Hemalurgy table if you haven't considered it already.  There's the potential for some realmatically juicy questions, like what the heck is destiny?!  Though maybe its just somebody who doesn't know the technical word for Fortune and is trying to describe it.  It'd be good to know either way though.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

It's more or less the aggregate of however the people/culture's present think of it. They'd be disk or sphere shaped based on the overriding ideas of the living populace, not unlike how Spren had Four Genders until Humans took over.  It's not going to be based on the location of the perpendicularities given that those can and do move, and since not every populated world has them.

 

Random comment:  Given that your Spiritweb Knows how old you are (which is why stopping longterm Atium Compounding causes your body to rapidly age to "catch up") I think the Spirit Realm has one Dimension More, not Less: I'd call it a 4D space.

I think it's more like a 0D space.  There's not location or time there - it's all one.  That's why you can access the Spiritual Realm from anywhere and use it to teleport (potentially).  That's why you can see the Future (using Fortune).  

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It would really only require colonization by a civilization that had discovered that planets are round. Also the WoB in OPs post explicitly says that the CR is flat.

I just realized that I’m now on the wrong side of a flat earth debate. Feels bad.

The idea is that it would require that said Colonists reach a space-fairing stage before they reached their Cognitive realm and solidified its form.  The WoB in the OP is talking about Shadesmar and Roshar specifically, but the Cognitive realm is different for each planet; on Scadrial there is no sphere ocean or inverted topography, on Roshar metals don't glow, etc. 

[Quantus]

29 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think it's more like a 0D space.  There's not location or time there - it's all one.  That's why you can access the Spiritual Realm from anywhere and use it to teleport (potentially).  That's why you can see the Future (using Fortune).  

Excellent point, I was thinking of it as a 4-D space because Time exists but isnt particularly binding, but something more 0D singularity-style is definitely a better model for it given how both Space and Time are all one accessible thing. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 1/15/2019 at 5:27 AM, insert_anagram_here said:

Anyway, on topic now, the idea that Cognitive is 2d and Spiritual is 1d is very interesting (I love simplifications and the reason behind it is a discussion in itself) but I feel that there is something missing, so maybe it's an oversimplification here. Granted there is at least one WoB that says that time doesn't exist in the Spiritual Realm, so that makes it one dimension less than the Cognitive, but we still have (apart from time itself): location which needs at least 2 dimensions, and the 'amount of cognitive thought' ,height, as you've described it in the WeiryWriter inspiration bit. So that's at least 4 dimensions in the Cognitive. That doesn't mean that the Spiritual Realm isn't 1d, you could still project anything to 1d anyway, but it just means that, sadly for simplification purposes, it isn't verified as a fact yet.

And @Quantus, @SwordNimiForPresident, and @ILuvHats

First off, thanks for replying, I feel kind of like you replied out of pity, but I'll take it, I love talking about this stuff.

Firstly, Brandon has said that the Platonic ideas were a primary inspiration in the creation of the Cognitive Realm, specifically his philosophy of Ideal forms. Like the notion that for every existent thing there exists in the realm of abstract thought an Ideal form of that thing, and every specific thing in the material world is an imperfect projection of that Ideal (the analogy is the ideal form say of a chair is held up before a fire in a cave, and the specific perception of the material manifestation of that ideal chair would be like the shadow of the ideal chair projected by the fire onto the cave wall).

Plato, Aristotle and the Neo-Platonists were inspired by the metaphysical philosophy of Pythagoras, and some of the central ideas of the strange religious cult that the Pythagoreans developed were based on sacred Numerology, and were symbolized by a mathematically awesome symbol called the Tetractys.

This is an Isosceles triangle containing four levels of points that describe 9 smaller isosceles triangles, and one of the abstract qualities that the points of the Tetractys represented was organization of space (you can read more about this on the Wikipedia article, the following list is from that article):

1. the first row represented zero dimensions (a point)
2. the second row represented one dimension (a line of two points)
3. the third row represented two dimensions (a plane defined by a triangle of three points)
4. the fourth row represented three dimensions (a tetrahedron defined by four points)

How I see Realmatics in the Cosmere working is that the Spiritual Realm is the apical point of the Tetractys, the realm of complete unitary being, without extension, without dimension, it just is. Connection is the second row of the Tetractys, like a line comprised of two points, it is that which connects all things to the spiritual realm, it flows from everything to the one point of Unitary being, namely the Spiritual Realm. The third Row is the cognitive realm, it's essentially a topology (a plane with topographic features (that if you were a 2 dimensional being you wouldn't perceive because it's a continuous topology). The Fourth row is the physical realm where you have true 3 Dimensional space.

My guess is that the apparent 3 dimensional features of the cognitive realm (like a lake of glass beads with a definite depth) were created by the perceptions of sapient beings who lived in the 3 dimensional physical realm, but that these are only apparent 3-Dimensional features. If A. Square from Flatland went to Shadesmar, in order to interact with the beads that are the souls of the ideas, they would have to be arranged on the plane, and since they are spheres, they would most likely present as circles (a cross section of the sphere intersecting with the plane), they couldn't have depth because the sapient being normally exists in 2 Dimensional space. But because 3-Dimensional beings are the ones visiting the Cognitive realm (and the Spren became 3-Dimensional because of the recursive effect of perceptions shaping thought) the Cognitve Realm adapted to a 3-Dimensional percept system.

I think where the whole idea that Spiritual Realm exists outside of time and space gets confusing is when a being that normally exists in time and space perceives it (like Kelsier when he sees the Infinite series of connections radiating and propogating out from all things, or when Kaladin sees the swirling mass of roiling temptuous color on his vision of the future in Shadesmar, or when Dalinar hears the dislocated voice of Evi forgiving him). This is the same phenomena of a 3 dimensional being experiencing a 2 Dimensional plane, they have a finite capacity to experience the totality of the Spiritual Realm, so their experience is directed along lines that they are familiar with, namely they perceive the Spiritual Realm in a manner that their limitations of existence dictate (they are of finite mind, confined in finite space experiencing time as an arrow moving always forward, they carry these biases with them to the spiritual realm and their perception is then filtered through these biases).

@Ixthos has a great thread where there's some interesting discussion about traveling from one subastral to another subastral, and here's a link to the post that I made with some animated diagrams that shows how I think this all works:

Some of this is definitely speculation, but here are some supporting WoBs that along with the WoBs in the OP make a pretty good case for this interpretation (spoilered for length, with a brief description):

• Shadesmar is a boundless contiguous plane (implied interpretation because you can circumnavigate Roshar without crossing a hard boundary):
  Spoiler

  Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

  So, because the world is flat in Shadesmar, if there's a place where you can't cross, so if a Radiant was on a ship, they'd have trouble getting across, because their spren would be stuck behind that line of discontinuity. Is the Origin of Storms located on that line?

  Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

  No, good question.

  Footnote: The questioner is building off of this exchange.
  source

•  
• WoB about the Spiritual Realm being based on Platonic Ideals and not really a place:
  Spoiler

  Kurkistan

  Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

  Kurkistan

  And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

  (The WoB continues with some technical talk about breath, spoilered below)

  Spoiler

  Kurkistan

  So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

  Brandon Sanderson

  You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

  Kurkistan

  Okay.

  Brandon Sanderson

  Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of diety, right?

  Kurkistan

  Yeah.

  Brandon Sanderson

  And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

  Kurkistan

  Yes.

  Brandon Sanderson

  And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

  Kurkistan

  But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes, yes yes exactly.

  source

   

   

   

   

   

• WoBs about the nature of the Spiritual Realm
  Spoiler

  Being Pulled into the Spiritual Realm (atium and duralimun, emphasis added)

  Spoiler

  Wigginns

  What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

  Brandon Sanderson

  A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

  Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

  Alsadius

  Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes.

  Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
  source

  Another bit about traveling to the Spiritual Realm (atium + duralimun, ascension, emphasis added)

  Spoiler

  Argent

  Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

  Argent

  As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

  Brandon Sanderson

  No...

  Questioner #1

  As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

  Brandon Sanderson

  No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

  Argent

  Oh, that's what happens there.

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

  Argent

  So, Vin?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

  Questioner #2

  Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

  Brandon Sanderson

  Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception!

  Questioner #2

  The <mists? mistwraith?>?

  Brandon Sanderson

  No.

  Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.
  source

  The Spiritual Realm is not a place, all things are equidistant from the Spiritual Realm (emphasis added):

  Spoiler

  Questioner

  Well you answered my question about Allomancers being able to burn metals in other realms. Is that because the Shards are sort of…  My impression from the book was that the Shards were, in the Mistborn books, specifically in that area but is it because the universe is formed across all of them that that is why the metals...

  Brandon Sanderson

  So, most of the magics are not region-dependent, because the Spiritual Realm-- in the Spiritual Realm space doesn’t exist.  All things are the same distance from one another.

  Questioner

  Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

  Brandon Sanderson

  He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

  Questioner

  Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

  Brandon Sanderson

  No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent.  He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

  Questioner

  So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

  Brandon Sanderson

  He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

  Questioner

  So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

  Brandon Sanderson

  A body is helpful. Depends on what their ties are and things like that.  Not always, but yeah.

  source

   

   

I have to get back to work now, for reals, but when I have some time I'll come back and edit in some more supporting WoBs, because they are out there.

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
some small clarification, and typos, always typos

[insert_anagram_here]

19 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

First off, thanks for replying, I feel kind of like you replied out of pity, but I'll take it, I love talking about this stuff.

Normally, I would just read through such a thread but not have the courage to comment, since it feels like I'm in too deep since I don't understand everything (I don't want to waste people's time with my silly questions or remarks). But you did say in the referencing thread that you didn't get much activity in here and I thought 'I might as well say how far I understand this bit, at least it'll bump the thread' and voila.

Your newest post will keep me occupied for tonight. Bring in all the info, maybe something will stick.

[Quantus]

25 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

And @Quantus, @SwordNimiForPresident, and @ILuvHats

First off, thanks for replying, I feel kind of like you replied out of pity, but I'll take it, I love talking about this stuff.

 

"Pity"?  No way.  Interest, and (if Im honest with myself) a healthy dose of Boredom.  There's a lot to unpack with the rest of your post, Ill have to get back to you on the rest

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

42 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Your newest post will keep me occupied for tonight. Bring in all the info, maybe something will stick.

You could just read about the Pythagorean cult, did you know that one of their Religious Precepts was to "Abstain from beans"? Sage advice if you live in close proximity with other sages I guess. The link included is to a new-agey type of website, but the precepts are there. They were a mystery cult and there most sacred teachings were based on math, imagine if there was a church today where to be a member you had to do math homework and not eat beans.

The Wikipedia article on the Tetractys is totally worth reading, it's pretty amazing how dense the information packed into that one symbol is. And if you are a Math nut, obsessed with perfection in the universe, it's a pretty perfect symbol too. It's a perfect triangle containing more perfect triangles (all angles and sides are equal), it has 10 pts (the only base number that is self extendable), it's a hexagon extended on alternating sides by isoceles triangles, and if you wanted to you could tesselate that shape infinitely. Pretty rad stuff.

39 minutes ago, Quantus said:

"Pity"?  No way.  Interest, and (if Im honest with myself) a healthy dose of Boredom.  There's a lot to unpack with the rest of your post, Ill have to get back to you on the rest

Boredom is a call to action brother. Excited to see what you have to say about all this, I think it's incredibly interesting myself.

I was looking up information about the Julia Set in reply to one of your comments @Quantus, and saw this remarkable video by Mathologer on the Times Tables and the Mandelbrot set (spoilered below):

Spoiler

 

The visualizations of what he is talking about are amazing, and it's incredibly interesting under the hood kind of stuff about how Numbers work. Pretty rad, check it out if boredom sends you another clarion call to action.

[Ixthos]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I've been meaning to respond to this, but I can't think of anything to add. I like your approach. Great topic, and I look forwards to seeing how this progresses, and if I can contribute anything. So, again, great topic!