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[OB] Who is your least favorite Antagonist?


Least favorite Antagonist?  

108 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your least favorite Antagonist?

    • Amaram
      21
    • Sadeas
      14
    • Moash
      32
    • Taravangian
      11
    • Rayse
      1
    • Tanalan
      4
    • Straff Venture
      19
    • Lady Lewshi
      2
    • Nalan’ Elin
      2
    • Ishar/Tezim
      2


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1 hour ago, Aurora the Rioter said:

He is evil and yes I know he is trying to save his city from Odium, but at what cost?  

I have said this before, but I don't think Mr T can be seen as evil. He tries to save humanity (he still does, even though he has been limited to one city). The goal isn't evil. He never does anything just because he wants to harm others. Quite the opposite actually: he feels bad for doing what he is doing. From his perspective, he is sacrificing his own morality (and a lot of people) in order to make humanity survive. Utilitarian yes, the wrong decision, most likely, but evil? No, I wouldn't go that far.

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20 hours ago, old aggie said:

Pretty sure the OP meant Lady Leshwi, the Fused that Moash killed at one point and who later talks with him

I voted for “Lady Lewshi” because I had no idea who she was. I figured if she was forgettable then she wasn’t my favorite! It sounded like a Mistborn name to me.

But now that I know it was Lady Leshwi from OB we were talking about I have to say that I thought she was a minor character who may be influencial in Moash’s arc but I don’t feel like I know enough about her to dislike her. She was respected by her peers and can’t really die. She showed interest/curiosity towards Moash.  No strong emotions towards her either way. 

I was really intrigued by Amaram until the end of OB. I feel that some of his story was cut/trimmed/missing. 

I love/hate Taravangian but enjoy his scenes. Especially the scene where he and Dalinar were sitting by the fireplace. His scenes make me think. 

Moash is a sad character to me. I pity him. Like a child you see making wrong choices but know the only way he will learn is to experience the consequences of his decisions on his own. But he is “burning bridges” with Bridge 4 and I believe now that it’s too late for him to rejoin that crowd. So he will find a new crowd where he will perceive himself as the leader (like Kaladin) but realize later he was a puppet for someone else just as Vivenna realized in WB. 

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5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I have said this before, but I don't think Mr T can be seen as evil. He tries to save humanity (he still does, even though he has been limited to one city). The goal isn't evil. He never does anything just because he wants to harm others. Quite the opposite actually: he feels bad for doing what he is doing. From his perspective, he is sacrificing his own morality (and a lot of people) in order to make humanity survive. Utilitarian yes, the wrong decision, most likely, but evil? No, I wouldn't go that far.

My thoughts exactly! I actually kind of like him ;)

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Moash currently holds most of my... hatred (haha).... but I think he's a great foil to Kaladin and everything he has done works super well for the narrative.  I also loved Rayse onscreen sooo much.  

Straff would be my least favorite, mostly because his motivations are mostly "because I deserve it".  He doesn't really make me super angry, nor is he super nuanced/sympathetic.

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On 1/7/2018 at 0:02 PM, TequilaJack said:

1. Moash. The worst kind of traitor, trying to kill the man who saved him from slavery and death. Loathsome.

2. Taravangian - Agree to throw the entire world to die just so he can save his own kingdom. Despicable.

 

Oh, but both of these characters create such brilliant conflict haha.

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Amaram. I've ranted about him before on this forum, and the previous posts have gotten to the matter more thoroughly than I ever did, but I ultimately feel like he was a wasted opportunity at best, someone who existed primarily to add to Kaladin's "protagonist status" at worst.

Real shame. I understand killing off Sadeas, since he was going to keep rehashing the same plot line of trying to discredit Dalinar, but Amaram had a lot of ties to a lot o characters, factions and concepts that had only begun to be hinted at in WoR, and then were unexplored in OB. I... really do not understand why Amaram died from a narrative standpoint. 

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This is really cool.

In reading the comments under this poll, I think (though I might be wrong) that we are interpreting the description "least favorite" in a couple different ways.

  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist who they liked least / hated most as a character
  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist who was least effective (i.e., not successful at being a "bad" character).
  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist whose storyline or character arc was least meaningful / most irrelevant to the book or series.
  • Some see it as meaning an Antagonist who was actually not an Antagonist at all but a Neutral or Good character.
  • ... and a bunch of other things.

Please understand, I am not at all saying that the poll was not worded right; I am saying that it was in fact very cleverly worded, to create some great discussion and allow each of us to decide for ourselves what "least favorite" means! Kudos, @Herald Of Justice!

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12 hours ago, Quiver said:

Amaram. I've ranted about him before on this forum, and the previous posts have gotten to the matter more thoroughly than I ever did, but I ultimately feel like he was a wasted opportunity at best, someone who existed primarily to add to Kaladin's "protagonist status" at worst.

Real shame. I understand killing off Sadeas, since he was going to keep rehashing the same plot line of trying to discredit Dalinar, but Amaram had a lot of ties to a lot o characters, factions and concepts that had only begun to be hinted at in WoR, and then were unexplored in OB. I... really do not understand why Amaram died from a narrative standpoint. 

I conquer. I personally find Amaram, Sadeas, Nale and Taravangian to be the most interesting villains, because their motivations are complex. I was sadden to see Brandon evacuate the entire inner Alethi politics from OB: I felt it was unrealistic Dalinar would roam free of opposition... In this optic, Amaram was a wasted villain: there were so many interesting avenues to explore with him, the Sons of Honor, the fact he feels guilty towards having murdered Kaladin's squad, yet he felt he had to for the greater good of humanity. It was extraordinarily interesting. Just as Sadeas was interesting as the "all for myself" kind of old school villain.

Instead we got Moash.... who has the motivations of a 5 years old and the complexity of a chull. I hated everyone of his chapters and I am appalled he is the villain Brandon chose to push forward. We had Amaram, we had Sadeas, but they die so the narrative can focus on... Moash? He reads like Kaladin 2.0, but having made the opposite choices. What's the interest?

We still have Ialai, Taravangian and Nale, so why again I am reading about Moash?

59 minutes ago, old aggie said:

This is really cool.

In reading the comments under this poll, I think (though I might be wrong) that we are interpreting the description "least favorite" in a couple different ways.

  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist who they liked least / hated most as a character
  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist who was least effective (i.e., not successful at being a "bad" character).
  • Some see it as meaning the Antagonist whose storyline or character arc was least meaningful / most irrelevant to the book or series.
  • Some see it as meaning an Antagonist who was actually not an Antagonist at all but a Neutral or Good character.
  • ... and a bunch of other things.

Please understand, I am not at all saying that the poll was not worded right; I am saying that it was in fact very cleverly worded, to create some great discussion and allow each of us to decide for ourselves what "least favorite" means! Kudos, @Herald Of Justice!

I voted the for antagonist I liked the least, I enjoy reading the least and I feel is the least interesting villain on a pure villain stand-point. A good villain needs to have a complicated set of motivations to be plausible. There usually is a side of him we, the readers, find redeemable or not entirely evil.

Amaram was a very good villain before he became one-dimensional. Ialai still is an interesting villain, if she is ever developed. Sadeas was an interesting villain not because he was complex, but because he fits so perfectly within the narrative Brandon is proposing and the society he built. 

Moash definitely the least interesting, the least complex and the least interesting to read about villain we have had, IMHO.

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On 1/7/2018 at 8:51 AM, Kaleid said:

Why is Ialai not on there? I liked her less than Sadeas.

I actually really like Ialai - I think that she's funny and entertaining, and I find her shameless manipulation a bit refreshing, when so many of the female characters have so much more eloquence and finesse.  I was a little disappointed she didn't have a more important role in OB, after the murder of Sadeas.  Instead of Ialai, Sadeas was sort of replaced with Amaram as the leader of the anti-Dalinar coalition.  

On 1/7/2018 at 6:26 PM, Varenus said:

Most hated person: Straff all the way, he has no redeeming qualities at all. (Sadeas was bad, but Straff is next level)

Also, about this - I know this isn't a Mistborn discussion thread, but Straff's name was mentioned in the survey so might as well talk about him.  For me a "good" antagonist is not someone who is "good" - that defeats the purpose of being an antagonist.  I like Straff as an antagonist because he is evil, dark and unapologetic - he is a well-crafted villain.  Even if I would hate him in real life, I still recognize that he's a good villain for the purposes of the story.  Several people have said they don't like Straff, whereas for me I dislike antagonists like Moash (who I voted for).  Moash at this point doesn't have a strong motivation for being a villain - he is sort of depressed and sulky and he doesn't have very clear goals.  Someone like Straff is a strong villain because they are definitive, focused and they know exactly what they want - Moash is sort of teetering on the edge of depression and totally black evil, and it's not very entertaining to explore that transition as a reader.  We want villains who are complex, well-fleshed out and fully formed, not characters who are just "thinking about being evil" but might have a change of heart in the next few chapters.

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22 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Moash at this point doesn't have a strong motivation for being a villain

Quote

What happened at the Shattered Plains wasn’t my fault, he thought as he hauled the sledge. I was pushed into it. I can’t be blamed. These thoughts comforted him.

I feel like there were a couple subtle clues that Moash was unknowingly well within Odiums influence even before he reached Kholinar. I don't know if I can call that motivation, but he is certainly being guided at this point.

 

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13 hours ago, maxal said:

Instead we got Moash.... who has the motivations of a 5 years old and the complexity of a chull. I hated everyone of his chapters and I am appalled he is the villain Brandon chose to push forward. We had Amaram, we had Sadeas, but they die so the narrative can focus on... Moash? He reads like Kaladin 2.0, but having made the opposite choices. What's the interest?

I agree, and I disagree. Moash and Kaladin are similar, and Amaram, Nale and Mr T are all more interesting. Could I kill Moash, and bring back Amaram, I would. 

However, saying that Moash isn't complex is unfair. The fact that he has lost hope in humanity is a pretty neat idea, and I do see where he came from. He is Kaladin, but without the strenght to make the right choices, just as Amaram in OB was Dalinar without the strenght to make the right choices. He is obsessed with hate and vengeance, and is basically a monster created by oppression. He is however quite unlikeable (he was unlikeable even before he turned bad), and his chapters weren't that interesting. Partially because we don't like him as a person, and partially because nothing really happened. He mostly just wandered around with the Voidbringers, and killed Jezrien at the end (that scene was good). 

I am not overly fond of Moash either, and I prefer most SA antagonists over him. But he is not a bad character, and he has the potential to go somewhere interesting.

Oh, and killing Sadeas was probably for the best. He was kind of redundant for the narrative at that point.

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I'm not sure exactly what we are voting for. If it is the antagonist we lest liked I have to go Amaram. Largely because his story and motivations were so underdeveloped and he is dead now so that is probably then end to that. Similar to Aesudan built up and then dead meh... Actually I am surprised not to see Aesudan  on the list. 

If it is my most hated antagonist I'd have to say Moash at this point.

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I voted Moash, but I might disagree with myself. I feel like it was necessary to show that some people can be broken, and not automatically become KR. Moash, though not the best arc Sanderson has written, does show that people cannot always push through their pain, and sometimes succumb to their inner demons. He is usually underrated for good reason, but if his viewpoint continues in book 4 we can have one more POV of Odium's plans...

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